Porkins Policy Radio ep. 30 Gladio B Roundtable with Sibel Edmonds and Tom Secker
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0:01 - 0:08♪ [ Philip Glass – “Runaway Horses”
(Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters) ] ♪ -
0:55 - 0:58OK, everybody. Welcome back to
another episode of Porkins Policy Radio. -
0:58 - 1:00As always, I am your host Pearse Redmond,
-
1:00 - 1:03and you can find this podcast
and all the other podcasts -
1:03 - 1:06by going to porkinspolicyreview.wordpress.com
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1:06 - 1:10Well, today we have a very special episode,
-
1:10 - 1:12and we have two very special guests.
-
1:12 - 1:16And we're going to be discussing The Lone Gladio,
-
1:16 - 1:19Sibel Edmond's new novel, in greater detail,
-
1:19 - 1:22As well as exploring some of the
intricacies -
1:22 - 1:24of Gladio Plan B in general.
-
1:24 - 1:29And joining me for this epic
roundtable discussion on this -
1:29 - 1:32is, of course, our good friend and
frequent guest on the show Tom Secker -
1:32 - 1:35from SpyCulture.com and the
host of ClandesTime. -
1:35 - 1:38And also joining us all the way
on the West Coast -
1:38 - 1:42in what has become the newest state
to legalize marijuana -
1:42 - 1:45is our wonderful, wonderful guest
who's been on the show recently -
1:45 - 1:50and that is, of course, the creator
and founder of BoilingFrogsPost.com -
1:50 - 1:52and the author of The Lone Gladio,
Sibel Edmonds -
1:52 - 1:56So Sibel, Tom: Thank you for joining
me on the show today. -
1:56 - 1:57(Tom) Hi, thank you.
-
1:57 - 2:00(Sibel) Good to be talking to you both.
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2:00 - 2:06(Pearse) Yeah, absolutely. So, basically
me and Tom just wanted to ask you -
2:06 - 2:08about a million more questions
that we didn't get to -
2:08 - 2:11when we both interviewed you
for our respective shows -
2:11 - 2:17So... and I guess... Tom, why don't you
start the conversation off? -
2:17 - 2:19(Tom) Sure. Well, I only have...
-
2:19 - 2:21Well, I managed to whittle it down to two
-
2:21 - 2:23that I didn't get to ask you before,
Sibel. -
2:23 - 2:27Because we were talking about,
essentially, -
2:27 - 2:29how your book The Lone Gladio
-
2:29 - 2:34Subverts an awful lot of the
normal spy fiction. -
2:34 - 2:37And that's because it's doing
something vastly different. -
2:37 - 2:40It's, in many ways, an attack on
the security state. -
2:40 - 2:43Rather than some kind of defense of it
-
2:43 - 2:46or glorification of it, which is
what you normally get. -
2:46 - 2:51And we picked up on... sorry,
on various different things. -
2:51 - 2:55And there were a couple that I
didn't get around to asking you about. -
2:55 - 2:59So the first one is this question of
rogue agents. -
2:59 - 3:05Because in the book, the protagonist,
the titular Lone Gladio, Greg, -
3:05 - 3:08He goes rogue and wreaks this havoc
-
3:08 - 3:11against his former colleagues,
his former paymasters -
3:11 - 3:13And normally in spy culture,
-
3:13 - 3:16the rogue agent is portrayed
as the bad apple, right? -
3:16 - 3:19The exception to the normal
state of affairs. -
3:19 - 3:24Sort of they're the bad people
within a good institution. -
3:24 - 3:26That's the usual picture you get.
-
3:26 - 3:27Whereas in your book, in The Lone Gladio
-
3:27 - 3:32Greg is a... I hesitate to say
a good apple... -
3:32 - 3:36[laughter] but he's somewhat good.
He does do good things. -
3:36 - 3:38He does protect people
that need protecting -
3:38 - 3:40and that deserve to be protected.
-
3:40 - 3:41Things like that.
-
3:41 - 3:42Some of his...
-
3:42 - 3:45some of the torture sequences,
one might debate. [laughter] -
3:45 - 3:47[xx] how good these things are
-
3:47 - 3:52but nonetheless, he is a somewhat
good apple, if you like -
3:52 - 3:54within the bad institution.
-
3:54 - 3:56So once again, this is a
complete inversion -
3:56 - 4:00and reinvention of a stereotype
in spy stories. -
4:00 - 4:03And yet you've said in other interviews
-
4:03 - 4:06that Greg is somewhat based on real people
-
4:06 - 4:08real black operatives that
you've met along the way -
4:08 - 4:10and had conversations with
-
4:10 - 4:13and to some extent got to know what
kind of people they are. -
4:13 - 4:17So my question -- and I hope this
isn't too cheeky -- -
4:17 - 4:20is how realistic is Greg?
-
4:20 - 4:22How realistic is it that one day,
-
4:22 - 4:25there might be a real Lone Gladio?
-
4:25 - 4:27(Sibel) Well, you may call it
-
4:27 - 4:31to some degree, a wishful thinking.
-
4:31 - 4:37Because we haven't had a real-life
Greg MacPherson -
4:37 - 4:43Despite all the publicized, many of them totally scripted
-
4:43 - 4:48supposed CIA whistleblowers
-
4:48 - 4:52or people who have turned against
the CIA to a certain degree. -
4:52 - 4:57We have never had a real Greg from
the Agency -
4:57 - 4:58from the CIA
-
4:58 - 5:03And also, to answer your question,
-
5:03 - 5:05the first part of your question,
-
5:05 - 5:07my feeling and my knowledge,
-
5:07 - 5:10based on my knowledge, what I have seen,
-
5:10 - 5:13has been that many of these
mass-market books -
5:13 - 5:17the spy thrillers involving the Agency,
-
5:17 - 5:21they are the ones that always
subvert the reality -
5:21 - 5:24meaning, what really these people do
-
5:24 - 5:28and the culture of the agency
-
5:28 - 5:30who the agency actually serves,
-
5:30 - 5:32it's not the American people.
-
5:32 - 5:36And it's not even the United States
government. -
5:36 - 5:39So it goes to the heart of the Deep State.
-
5:39 - 5:44Those people who benefit from
the Agency, from the CIA -
5:44 - 5:48and whom the Agency really serves.
-
5:48 - 5:51So all the books that we see out there,
-
5:51 - 5:53the Hollywood-made movies,
-
5:53 - 5:56they subvert the facts, the reality
-
5:56 - 5:59of what the Agency is about.
-
5:59 - 6:04And because of this, all average Americans
-
6:04 - 6:06or even people in Europe,
-
6:06 - 6:10most people, they have
-
6:10 - 6:12a complete false notion of
-
6:12 - 6:14what the CIA is all about.
-
6:14 - 6:18Now, this is actually to a lesser degree
-
6:18 - 6:21or even, maybe, not even in any degree
-
6:21 - 6:25in countries that have been the targets
-
6:25 - 6:29of all these types of CIA,
the Agency's, operations. -
6:29 - 6:33Because if you go and talk with people
in countries like Iran, -
6:33 - 6:39the 1953 coup with Mossadeq
being taken out -
6:39 - 6:41and Shah being placed in there.
-
6:41 - 6:46If you go to some of the Central
American, South American nations -
6:46 - 6:48because they have, these countries
-
6:48 - 6:52-- in Middle East, in South and
Central America -- -
6:52 - 6:56since they have had first-hand
experience, real experience -
6:56 - 6:58of what CIA actually does,
-
6:58 - 7:01they are not under this false notion.
-
7:01 - 7:05And you can engage in some
really heated conversation -
7:05 - 7:07with people in these countries
-
7:07 - 7:09with notions that they put forward
-
7:09 - 7:11that are far more realistic, factual,
-
7:11 - 7:15than, let's say, when you talk with
people in the United States. -
7:15 - 7:19So I would put it this way:
-
7:19 - 7:26I would say I subverted the
subverted notion -
7:26 - 7:30of the Agency and the Agency people.
-
7:30 - 7:32And you're absolutely right about Greg.
-
7:32 - 7:34It's hard to call him a good person,
-
7:34 - 7:36or the good apple,
-
7:36 - 7:39but the book and the characters
in the book -
7:39 - 7:44they go into the heart of what
the Agency is about -
7:44 - 7:45what kind of people
-
7:45 - 7:48are selected to be operatives.
-
7:48 - 7:52And of course, the fictional aspect being
-
7:52 - 8:00all it takes is one or two real good
apples to actually, -
8:00 - 8:03truly expose what the Agency's about
-
8:03 - 8:07and the operations, their objectives,
and who they serve. -
8:07 - 8:09And we haven't had, to date,
-
8:09 - 8:11such a good apple.
-
8:11 - 8:13And it's really, really amazing.
-
8:13 - 8:14For me, it's really amazing.
-
8:14 - 8:16But then, on the other hand,
-
8:16 - 8:18it may go to this whole notion of
-
8:18 - 8:19the chicken or the egg.
-
8:19 - 8:22In this way: that... well, to start with,
-
8:22 - 8:26the poeple they select for these jobs
-
8:26 - 8:30the operatives -- I'm not talking about
the administrative people or analysts -- -
8:30 - 8:34to start with are the kind of people
who would never -
8:34 - 8:38become those good apples that
they would step out -
8:38 - 8:41and go all the way into exposing
-
8:41 - 8:44what the Agency is about.
-
8:44 - 8:47I mean, this fact applies to
a lesser degree -
8:47 - 8:51to agencies like, more law enforcement,
the FBI -
8:51 - 8:52even though I'm not saying that
they are good, -
8:52 - 8:57but we have had whistleblowers,
or some good apples, -
8:57 - 9:05that have really exposed some
major black deeds -
9:05 - 9:09performed or implemented
by these agencies. -
9:09 - 9:11But not really with the CIA.
-
9:11 - 9:13And some people may say,
-
9:13 - 9:16"Oh, here we have had this agents,
or that agents," -
9:16 - 9:21and if you look at these so-called,
supposed whistleblowers, -
9:21 - 9:26you see how controlled
heir supposed exposure -
9:26 - 9:28or exposing of the agency is.
-
9:28 - 9:30First of all, you get to see them
-
9:30 - 9:34within the mainstream media, frequently.
-
9:34 - 9:37Which tells you right there that they are
-
9:37 - 9:39not exposing the Agency.
-
9:39 - 9:40They would never get a chance
-
9:40 - 9:45to be before millions of audience
within the mainstream media -
9:45 - 9:50putting forth some factual...
or some facts -
9:50 - 9:52that expose the true nature of the Agency.
-
9:52 - 9:55They would never, ever be given
that kind of a chance. -
9:55 - 9:56It doesn't happen.
-
9:56 - 9:57It has never happend.
-
9:57 - 9:58It really hasn't happened.
-
9:58 - 10:02You'll see some people who would
talk about how -
10:02 - 10:06the Agency is, by doing this
particular thing, -
10:06 - 10:09in this particular way...
-
10:09 - 10:15or people who are selling the notion
of, yes, there are a few bad apples -
10:15 - 10:18within the Agencies who are doing
this, within the management. -
10:18 - 10:22But this is similar to what people call
-
10:22 - 10:24the controlled opposition.
-
10:24 - 10:28It is tightly framed to further, still
-
10:28 - 10:33the Agency's legitimacy -- which is,
they are not legitimate. -
10:33 - 10:35And then within that tight frame,
-
10:35 - 10:41put forth some very shallow criticism
of some agencies. -
10:41 - 10:43And then, later on,
-
10:43 - 10:45if you see, it's usually blamed
on a President -
10:45 - 10:47or a particular party
-
10:47 - 10:50rather than going to the Deep State
-
10:50 - 10:57whom the Agency is there
to protect and further their agenda, -
10:57 - 11:01not some puppet President, or some party.
-
11:01 - 11:07Or... it boils down to some director
not being good, being the bad apple. -
11:07 - 11:08I mean, these are all the false notions
-
11:08 - 11:12that have been popularized
by the mainstream media. -
11:12 - 11:13By all the books that subvert
-
11:13 - 11:16what the Agency is about
-
11:16 - 11:19And alternative media as well,
-
11:19 - 11:20the so-called "alternative"media.
-
11:20 - 11:23A lot of them, they parrot the
same notion, -
11:23 - 11:28-- maybe they put it forth in a
more heated manner -- -
11:28 - 11:30but in the end, they are actually
-
11:30 - 11:32repeating the same storyline.
-
11:32 - 11:37Within the storyline, some plots
are maybe targeted and criticized, -
11:37 - 11:39but not the story itself.
-
11:39 - 11:42Well, I mean, you're absolutely
right there, I think. -
11:42 - 11:45And when you were talking about
how this was... -
11:45 - 11:48whenever you do get any kind
of significant revelation, -
11:48 - 11:51it's always wrapped up in a
"Oh, well, this was just" -
11:51 - 11:53"the policy of this particular
White House" -
11:53 - 11:56"Or it was because there was
a bad director of the CIA at that point" -
11:56 - 11:58"or..." there's never any kind of sense
-
11:58 - 12:02of this being a fundamental,
institutional problem -
12:02 - 12:04at... a fundamental problem
in the character -
12:04 - 12:07of the CIA and other similar institutions.
-
12:07 - 12:12And I was thinking, they've even tried
this with the original Gladio. -
12:12 - 12:16That, this was always the way it was
[xx] out there -
12:16 - 12:19by anyone who was insincere.
-
12:19 - 12:22Was that, "Oh, this was just some
stay-behind thing." -
12:22 - 12:25"It was Cold War paranoia.
Nothing really came of it." -
12:25 - 12:27And they ignore that second phase
-
12:27 - 12:28of the original Gladio
-
12:28 - 12:30where it became this very aggressive means
-
12:30 - 12:32of carrying out false-flag terrorism.
-
12:32 - 12:35And they sort of pretend like
-
12:35 - 12:37that never actually happened.
-
12:37 - 12:38They say, oh, this was some...
-
12:38 - 12:41oh, we were all worried about
Stalin or whatever. -
12:41 - 12:44It's just written off in that way,
the original Gladio. -
12:44 - 12:45(Tom) Yeah, sure.
-
12:45 - 12:47So, I mean, that's one of the things,
I suppose, -
12:47 - 12:49that I loved about The Lone Gladio
-
12:49 - 12:52is that, not only are you kind of throwing
all of that bullshit out the window, -
12:52 - 12:57you're actually talking about
more or less the present day. -
12:57 - 12:59I mean, it's set about ten years ago, OK,
-
12:59 - 13:02but it's the modern era.
It's the War on Terror era. -
13:02 - 13:03(Sibel) Absolutely.
-
13:03 - 13:05(Tom) So you're cutting right to the heart
-
13:05 - 13:08of the modern-day reality
-
13:08 - 13:11and my other question is kind of
related to that. -
13:11 - 13:13And I'm not in any way trying to get you
-
13:13 - 13:15to contradict yourself here.
-
13:15 - 13:17But we do also have the question
of blowback. -
13:17 - 13:19Because in some ways, that's what Greg
-
13:19 - 13:23and his crusade of violence represents.
-
13:23 - 13:25He is, to some extent,
-
13:25 - 13:26the unintended consequence
-
13:26 - 13:28of these black operations
-
13:28 - 13:30Both in terms of his motivation
-
13:30 - 13:34-- his wife is killed, essentially,
accidentally, or at least carelessly: -
13:34 - 13:35they weren't trying to kill her --
-
13:35 - 13:37And yet that's his...
-
13:37 - 13:39that's at least the point at which
he then decides -
13:39 - 13:42it's time to wreak havoc against them.
-
13:42 - 13:46I know your opinion of blowback
is roughly the same as mine, -
13:46 - 13:48that, again, it's one of these things
that's hung out there -
13:48 - 13:51to cover up something that would
otherwise be quite damaging. -
13:51 - 13:55Sometimes black operations do go bad.
-
13:55 - 13:57And unintended things happen
-
13:57 - 14:01but in general terms, blowback is
just one of those covers. -
14:01 - 14:02It's a smokescreen.
-
14:02 - 14:05It's..."the mujahideen in Afghanistan"
-
14:05 - 14:07"evolved into al-Qaeda completely
by accident." [laughter] -
14:07 - 14:11We've sort of accidentally
let this happen. -
14:11 - 14:13We took our eye off the ball,
blah-blah-blah. -
14:13 - 14:15It's totally untrue.
-
14:15 - 14:17Of course, we know it's totally untrue.
-
14:17 - 14:20And so I found it quite fascinating,
that... -
14:20 - 14:23knowing that your opinion
of blowback is quite similar to mine -
14:23 - 14:24if not the same as mine
-
14:24 - 14:29that this same basic idea forms
-
14:29 - 14:31such a central part of the story
-
14:31 - 14:32in The Lone Gladio.
-
14:32 - 14:38I mean, it's not a sort of explanation
that you take all that seriously -
14:38 - 14:39for real events, is it?
-
14:39 - 14:43But there, again, I suppose you're
being quite subversive. -
14:43 - 14:47Because instead of using blowback as a
way of covering up for black operations, -
14:47 - 14:52this story of Greg's retribution
against the Company -
14:52 - 14:56is actually his sort of means of
exposing them. -
14:56 - 15:00That's, I suppose, what... the overall
point of this book was -
15:00 - 15:02was to try and expose the reality
-
15:02 - 15:03and in doing so, that meant you simply
-
15:03 - 15:06had to subvert the usual way in which
these things worked -
15:06 - 15:09and therefore had to subvert
even the concept of blowback. -
15:09 - 15:17I suppose... OK, my question: is this
something that you did consciously, -
15:17 - 15:22or am I letting the literary analyst
inside me get a bit carried away here? -
15:22 - 15:27(Sibel) Um, no. Absolutely, absolutely.
First of all, you're absolutely right: -
15:27 - 15:30it is based on the notion of blowback
-
15:30 - 15:33and in this case, it's a real blowback.
-
15:33 - 15:36And that is: unintended consequences.
-
15:36 - 15:42Because, as we know, Greg's woman
-
15:42 - 15:45was killed purely accidentally.
-
15:45 - 15:50So that was not designed by the powers
-
15:50 - 15:54to get this reaction and this outcome
-
15:54 - 15:59that is brought forth by Greg.
Because he starts the mission. -
15:59 - 16:01And there are two things that
are happening. -
16:01 - 16:04There are two things that are
motivating Greg. -
16:04 - 16:08One, of course, we are talking
about this Great Terror Event in 2001. -
16:08 - 16:11In the US.
-
16:11 - 16:17And he was outside that highly-
compartmentalized operation -
16:17 - 16:22to execute this, this false-flag operation
in the home front -
16:22 - 16:25in the United States, on the US soil.
-
16:25 - 16:30And he realizes this as it happens,
and it's reported -
16:30 - 16:33by the tentacles of the Gladios.
-
16:33 - 16:42This is the CNN and BBC, or BCB,
as they are listed there -
16:42 - 16:43it may be a little bit cheesy [laughter]
-
16:43 - 16:44But... so...
-
16:44 - 16:51That is when it makes Greg stop and think
-
16:51 - 16:55and the blowback doesn't begin here
-
16:55 - 16:59but the roots, or the seeds, are
planted there. -
16:59 - 17:04Because he is, himself, a highly unusual,
-
17:04 - 17:06eccentric character
-
17:06 - 17:11with some dark, to a certain degree
sad background -
17:11 - 17:13that I don't get into in this book.
-
17:13 - 17:18It will, hopefully, once I write and if I
write the second book -
17:18 - 17:22will get more into Greg's childhood
-
17:22 - 17:28and what started his intense hatred
of Russians and everything Russian. -
17:28 - 17:31And that's one of the repeating
themes there. -
17:31 - 17:33And that has been one of the driving force
-
17:33 - 17:36for a lot of things that he has
done in life. -
17:36 - 17:41But in all this, this... for this
operation, false-flag -
17:41 - 17:45taking place in the US, that begins
the process. -
17:45 - 17:49It plants the seed, and then the
catalyst, of course, -
17:49 - 17:53two years later, becomes his
woman accidentally -
17:53 - 17:57taken out by the Agency
-
17:57 - 18:00So that basically triggers
all these actions. -
18:00 - 18:02And again, that was unintended.
-
18:02 - 18:05So that's a true blowback right there.
-
18:05 - 18:09And you used the word "intended,"
and that is very, very important. -
18:09 - 18:12It's the key word, because
-
18:12 - 18:15for a blowback to be really a blowback,
-
18:15 - 18:19the consequences have to be unintended.
-
18:19 - 18:23And with these operations themselves,
-
18:23 - 18:25the black ops, the false-flag operations,
-
18:25 - 18:31the recruitment and the training
of these terrorists, -
18:31 - 18:35in this case we had a black widow
who's a Chechen, -
18:35 - 18:40who's Chechen, in Azerbaijan
-
18:40 - 18:46and those operations are the
false-flag operations -
18:46 - 18:49with intended consequences.
-
18:49 - 18:52With intended consequences
-
18:52 - 18:56therefore, anything that results
from those operations -
18:56 - 18:59cannot in any way be considered blowback.
-
18:59 - 19:03Because when you look at, let's say
-
19:03 - 19:05a certain group being put in place,
-
19:05 - 19:08trained, armed, directed, managed,
-
19:08 - 19:12to execute a certain terror operation,
-
19:12 - 19:15whether it's in Russia or if it's
in Syria, -
19:15 - 19:17and if it's in Iraq,
-
19:17 - 19:19executing that terror operation
-
19:19 - 19:24is only a part of the intended results,
-
19:24 - 19:29the objectives, the means to get
to the objectives. -
19:29 - 19:33It's not all of consequences
taking place afterwards: -
19:33 - 19:37those are the intended consequences.
-
19:37 - 19:39So, let me give you an example.
-
19:39 - 19:44For example, let's say when you
train the Chechens, -
19:44 - 19:45a group of Chechens,
-
19:45 - 19:47and arm them, and drug them,
-
19:47 - 19:51and indoctrinate them, and manage them,
-
19:51 - 19:55and say, "You're gonna go and blow
up this in this part of Russia," -
19:55 - 19:56for example.
-
19:56 - 20:01Well, the first result of it is, OK,
this horrible terror incident happens -
20:01 - 20:03in that particular city
-
20:03 - 20:06or targeting this particular school,
et cetera. -
20:06 - 20:11Now, what happens next is what
is the intended consequence. -
20:11 - 20:15And that is to get Russia to react to it,
-
20:15 - 20:17and to react to it, hopefully,
dramatically. -
20:17 - 20:23Emotionally, and start rounding up
hundreds of Chechens, -
20:23 - 20:28putting them in jail, or actually going
and shooting 150 Chechens, right? -
20:28 - 20:32And that, in return, turning around
and causing this... -
20:32 - 20:34more attacks over there.
-
20:34 - 20:38Then, you start getting closer and closer
-
20:38 - 20:40to the intended consequences.
-
20:40 - 20:43The intended consequence in executing
-
20:43 - 20:45this particular terror operation,
this part of it -
20:45 - 20:47where something is blown up
-
20:47 - 20:49and you have 100 people dying,
-
20:49 - 20:50is not the first intent,
-
20:50 - 20:53the most important objective here.
-
20:53 - 20:59That is a way to get the following
five or six consequent events, -
20:59 - 21:00which are intended,
-
21:00 - 21:03to cause that chaos,
-
21:03 - 21:07to cause that certain sect going
after another sect -
21:07 - 21:12to cause for that to actually become
even more, -
21:12 - 21:14explode even further
-
21:14 - 21:16and affect a neighboring country.
-
21:16 - 21:19Let's say, if it's in Syria, something
is happening -
21:19 - 21:21with Jordan, and then
-
21:21 - 21:22this happens in the border,
-
21:22 - 21:25and you have, let's say, maybe half
a million refugees -
21:25 - 21:26getting to this country.
-
21:26 - 21:28Those in the media,
-
21:28 - 21:32and then these so-called CIA analysts
they are talking about, -
21:32 - 21:37they are always represented
and presented to the viewers -
21:37 - 21:40as the unintended consequences.
-
21:40 - 21:41I mean, they don't even say, "
-
21:41 - 21:43"OK, we did help blow this thing up."
-
21:43 - 21:45But let's say they armed it,
and we didn't know. -
21:45 - 21:47The usual storyline.
-
21:47 - 21:50"And look, all these things happen,
and they're horrifying" -
21:50 - 21:53while all along the intended consequences
-
21:53 - 21:57are events that take place long after,
let's say, -
21:57 - 21:59a building being blown up
-
21:59 - 22:01or 50 people getting killed.
-
22:01 - 22:03And that's what we are talking about.
-
22:03 - 22:08And in no way those can be considered
as blowback -
22:08 - 22:10because they are absolutely intended.
-
22:10 - 22:14Because when that chaos is taking place,
-
22:14 - 22:16then the next things comes as
a result of that, -
22:16 - 22:19and then these other two countries
get involved, -
22:19 - 22:23and as a result of that, let's say,
another country which says, -
22:23 - 22:26"You know what? Now we are really going
to, let's say," -
22:26 - 22:29"put our candidacy to become a member
of NATO." -
22:29 - 22:32And as a result of that, this and this
happens. -
22:32 - 22:34It's like a chess board.
-
22:34 - 22:39And you want to look at the move
that's gonna come -
22:39 - 22:41eight moves after the first move
-
22:41 - 22:46in order to go and execute, or achieve
what you want to achieve. -
22:46 - 22:48Not the first, initial things that
take place -
22:48 - 22:50with the first or the second move.
-
22:50 - 22:53And for those to be considered blowback,
-
22:53 - 22:55is the fiction that, unfortunately,
-
22:55 - 22:58almost everyone -- except for you guys
-
22:58 - 23:04and a handful of other who I call
the Irate Minority -
23:04 - 23:07real informed people, people don't know.
-
23:07 - 23:10And I always try to give these
examples and say, -
23:10 - 23:14if a certain action, modus operandi
-
23:14 - 23:17results in unintended consequences...
-
23:17 - 23:23Let's say this was talked about
a lot after 9/11, saying... -
23:23 - 23:26"Oh, well, we supported the
mujahideens in Afghanistan." -
23:26 - 23:31"In early '80s, late '70s. We armed them,
we trained them." -
23:31 - 23:34"Including Osama Bin Laden;
including Zawahiri." -
23:34 - 23:37And then those people turned around
-
23:37 - 23:39and started doing these kinds of things.
-
23:39 - 23:41And those were unintended.
-
23:41 - 23:43So let's say what they say
-
23:43 - 23:46-- this is the Deep State; this is
the mainstream media; -
23:46 - 23:48this is the so-called CIA analyst,
-
23:48 - 23:53these are the so-called CIA dissenters
such as people like Mike Scheuer -- -
23:53 - 23:59anonymously writing the
blowback-related stories, fiction, -
23:59 - 24:01being marketed as non-fiction,
-
24:01 - 24:03let's say if they were true, OK?
-
24:03 - 24:06Well, think about it: any person,
-
24:06 - 24:11any sane person, average normal
person, would say, -
24:11 - 24:15"I did this, and these things came
out of it -- unintended things." -
24:15 - 24:21So, you learn a lesson: you don't go
and repeat it ten times again -
24:21 - 24:24after seeing these supposed
unintended consequences. -
24:24 - 24:27But on the other hand, if you look
at the reality -
24:27 - 24:31and say, OK, for the past 30 or 40 years,
-
24:31 - 24:36how we repeat exactly the same script,
the same scenario, -
24:36 - 24:38the same operations,
-
24:38 - 24:42and getting the similar kind of blowback,
-
24:42 - 24:45the reactions, eight steps later,
-
24:45 - 24:48then you have to stop and say,
-
24:48 - 24:51"Well, really, is that unintended?"
-
24:51 - 24:53Because as the saying goes,
-
24:53 - 24:54"Fool me once, shame on you."
-
24:54 - 24:56"Fool me twice, shame on me."
-
24:56 - 24:58I mean, you can't keep doing
the same thing. -
24:58 - 25:01You do that with mujahideen:
"Oops! Blowback!" -
25:01 - 25:03Then you go and you get these cells
-
25:03 - 25:06you take then to Turkey from Syria
-
25:06 - 25:08-- These cells from Syria --
-
25:08 - 25:09You train them, you arm them,
-
25:09 - 25:12you put them there, back into Syria.
-
25:12 - 25:14You do the same thing with another cell:
-
25:14 - 25:16take them to Jordan, train and arm them,
put there, -
25:16 - 25:19knowing that, OK, they have...
-
25:19 - 25:23or selecting, intentionally, extremists.
-
25:23 - 25:25And then events take place, and say,
-
25:25 - 25:28"Oops! That was unintended."
-
25:28 - 25:32"Because our intention was getting
this, really, just like mujahideen" -
25:32 - 25:36And all the other groups that
we have used, -
25:36 - 25:38we consider them the freedom fighters.
-
25:38 - 25:45For how long the United States
media glorified the mujahideen -
25:45 - 25:51That includes Osama bin Laden as
their commando, Zawahiri, in the '80s. -
25:51 - 25:56If you go and get the archives
-- the newspaper articles, OK? -- -
25:56 - 25:59all the clips from NPR, from CNN,
-
25:59 - 26:02what you see is, they were glorified.
-
26:02 - 26:06Nobody even put anything like
"Islamists" or "extremists" -
26:06 - 26:09or any of those adjectives in
association with these people. -
26:09 - 26:11They were the great freedom fighters.
-
26:11 - 26:15They made Americans, all of them,
cheer for mujahideen. -
26:15 - 26:20The fact that they had... they were
stoning women, or doing... -
26:20 - 26:23which they did, during those
years as well. -
26:23 - 26:26They were never exposed,
because those were irrelevant. -
26:26 - 26:29They were the glorified freedom fighters.
-
26:29 - 26:31Liberation armies, right?
-
26:31 - 26:34And then, lo and behold:
-
26:34 - 26:39one day they all turned to these awful,
ferocious terrorists and al-Qaeda. -
26:39 - 26:43And their commandos became
the top terrorists in the world, -
26:43 - 26:48with these extreme belief
system and religious... -
26:48 - 26:52all those things happen: "Oops!"
Those were like, "Ooh, we were caught" -
26:52 - 26:57"and we were shocked;
and we were so surprised" -
26:57 - 26:58-- supposedly.
-
26:58 - 27:00Again, we are doing the same thing.
-
27:00 - 27:01We have been doing the same things.
-
27:01 - 27:04Take these people, arm them,
train them, manage them. -
27:04 - 27:07And then later come and say, "Oops!"
-
27:07 - 27:09"Look at what these people are doing."
-
27:09 - 27:10"They are extremists. We did not..."
-
27:10 - 27:14"We did not account for these
kinds of reaction," -
27:14 - 27:16"and these kinds of practices
by these people." -
27:16 - 27:20So therefore, in no way these operations
-
27:20 - 27:22and the consequences of the operations,
-
27:22 - 27:25can be considered blowback.
-
27:25 - 27:29And then, the lastly, the most
important thing to look at is: -
27:29 - 27:34Who benefits? Who benefits
from these operations? -
27:34 - 27:36And the intended consequences.
-
27:36 - 27:40Well, whoever is the puppet President
-
27:40 - 27:42--whether it's Obama or Reagan --
-
27:42 - 27:46they don't really, personally benefit
from these. -
27:46 - 27:47It's not about the President.
-
27:47 - 27:51it's not about a political party,
or the Republican Party: -
27:51 - 27:53because of that, they got rich
or they became powerful. -
27:53 - 27:57No. So that... those are not the
beneficiaries. -
27:57 - 27:59So the people on the ground,
-
27:59 - 28:03people in Syria, or people in Afghanistan,
-
28:03 - 28:04they're not the beneficiaries.
-
28:04 - 28:05their homes have been wrecked,
-
28:05 - 28:09and they have lost tens of thousands
of people. -
28:09 - 28:11The American people haven't been
better off. -
28:11 - 28:15And either financially or security-wise.
-
28:15 - 28:18So take the American people's
interests out of the equation. -
28:18 - 28:20Then you look at the map,
-
28:20 - 28:22you look at the situation, and say,
-
28:22 - 28:25who has become richer and more powerful,
-
28:25 - 28:29as a result of this.
-
28:29 - 28:33And what you see is, "Oh, look at this."
-
28:33 - 28:38Without these wars, the sales and
the stock prices -
28:38 - 28:41for the military-industrial complex
-
28:41 - 28:42would just plunge. I mean,
-
28:42 - 28:45think about a scenario where we
don't have these wars. -
28:45 - 28:47We are not engaged in Syria
and Afghanistan, -
28:47 - 28:49and with the drones in Pakistan and Yemen.
-
28:49 - 28:53Who are they gonna sell it to,
these drones and bombs? -
28:53 - 28:56And then, when you look at NATO,
-
28:56 - 28:59and you look at the militaristic
expansion, -
28:59 - 29:02and, let's say, with 9/11,
-
29:02 - 29:06before 9/11, how many bases did
we have in the region? -
29:06 - 29:11Whether it's in Eastern Europe, or
you're looking at nations like Azerbaijan, -
29:11 - 29:16I know they shut it down, but Manas
Airbase in Kyrgyzstan: -
29:16 - 29:17look at how close they are to Russia.
-
29:17 - 29:20Now, what made these possible
-
29:20 - 29:23was the event that took place here,
-
29:23 - 29:26the operation that took place here
in the United States, 9/11 -
29:26 - 29:32that gave us that legitimacy
-- even though it's not legitimate -- -
29:32 - 29:35to say, "OK, we don't have the Cold War,"
-
29:35 - 29:36"We don't have Russia,"
-
29:36 - 29:39"but we need to expand our bases
and take over these countries." -
29:39 - 29:42Again, those countries, with our
military bases -
29:42 - 29:45in order to protect ourselves again
a new enemy -
29:45 - 29:48the enemy that we create, put in place,
and manage. -
29:48 - 29:51So therefore, that's when
you're looking at -
29:51 - 29:54the intended consequences
-
29:54 - 29:55War, and who benefits from that.
-
29:55 - 30:00How many military bases Russia
has put in place, -
30:00 - 30:02created, put in place,
-
30:02 - 30:04since the Cold War ended?
-
30:04 - 30:08How many military bases China
has put in place, created -
30:08 - 30:10and expanded and...
-
30:10 - 30:11you don't see these.
-
30:11 - 30:13But take a look at the United States,
-
30:13 - 30:21and then start putting it with the
cover, legitimacy that they have done. -
30:21 - 30:24It's always in the name of a great enemy
-
30:24 - 30:26that we have militaristically
-
30:26 - 30:29put these bases in these countries,
-
30:29 - 30:31taken over these countries
and their regimes, -
30:31 - 30:32or installing their regimes.
-
30:32 - 30:35Therefore, without these operations,
-
30:35 - 30:38without these wars, without
these consequences, -
30:38 - 30:39we couldn't.
-
30:39 - 30:42So this is how you, or anyone, could start
-
30:42 - 30:45putting the two and two together, and say,
-
30:45 - 30:50my father always taught me this,
when I was six, seven, eight years old. -
30:50 - 30:52He said, "Whenever you look at any wars,"
-
30:52 - 30:55"really look and see
who benefits from it." -
30:55 - 30:57And it's never the case of people.
-
30:57 - 31:01It's not ever the case of those,
let's say, American soldiers -
31:01 - 31:04who are losing their lives doing these
-
31:04 - 31:05atrocious things overseas.
-
31:05 - 31:07Then who benefits/
-
31:07 - 31:09And once you get that answer
-
31:09 - 31:11and start to pinpoint the beneficiaries,
-
31:11 - 31:16that's when you can in-depth,
truly understand -
31:16 - 31:21what these wars, or these terror
incidents, or these conflicts are about. -
31:21 - 31:24That was a long answer. [laughter]
-
31:24 - 31:29(Tom) Well, yeah. And I suppose I'll
just hand you over to Pearse here. -
31:29 - 31:32Because I could pick up on a dozen
things that you just said. -
31:32 - 31:37Pearse, I know you wanted to kind of
carry on on this topic of... -
31:37 - 31:38(Pearse) Yeah.
-
31:38 - 31:39(Tom) Not necessarily blowback, but,
-
31:39 - 31:41consequences of where this
thing's going. -
31:41 - 31:44(Pearse) Well, yeah, I guess with
everything that you've just been saying, Sibel, -
31:44 - 31:48and taking The Lone Gladio
as kind of a road map for how this works -
31:48 - 31:51-- and again, it takes place around 2003,
-
31:51 - 31:53so we can see how this is
starting to form -- -
31:53 - 31:56but it seems that right now we're
sort of starting -
31:56 - 31:59to reach a new level, perhaps
-
31:59 - 32:01within the Gladio operation.
-
32:01 - 32:04And I guess my big question is,
-
32:04 - 32:07what is the end-game scenario
for Gladio B? -
32:07 - 32:09Or, even if there is one?
-
32:09 - 32:10Because at some point
-
32:10 - 32:13-- it's already happening to a
slight degree -
32:13 - 32:15in places like Azerbaijan or Kyrgyzstan --
-
32:15 - 32:19we're seeing a lot of these mercenaries
trained by NATO returning. -
32:19 - 32:22Now, if one of the major goals of Gladio B
-
32:22 - 32:26is the exploitation of natural resources,
-
32:26 - 32:27like oil and gas,
-
32:27 - 32:29and about encircling Russia,
-
32:29 - 32:32how are... at what point does this
become untenable -
32:32 - 32:37if you've got these jihadis running
all over the place? -
32:37 - 32:39And kind of fleshing that out
a little bit, -
32:39 - 32:43a lot of The Lone Gladio revolves
around Turkey. -
32:43 - 32:46And I was recently talking with
Christoph Germann on our new show, -
32:46 - 32:49and he was mentioning that more
and more analysts -
32:49 - 32:52are starting to come around to the idea
-
32:52 - 32:55that Turkey is entering this
Pakistan-ization -
32:55 - 32:59where it's being broken up into
these little areas -
32:59 - 33:02like Gaziantep or Hatay, which
are right on the border -
33:02 - 33:06or Suruç, where Serena Shim
was recently murdered -
33:06 - 33:09and they're starting to resemble
more and more -
33:09 - 33:11places like Peshawar in the
1980s and 1990s. -
33:11 - 33:15And again, the relationship between MIT,
-
33:15 - 33:16the Turkish intelligence and ISIS
-
33:16 - 33:19is somewhat similar to the ISI
and the Taliban. -
33:19 - 33:25So I guess, is that really the direction
that NATO and the CIA and MI6, -
33:25 - 33:29-- the Deep State network --
want to go in? -
33:29 - 33:31Because it seems as if they're playing
-
33:31 - 33:33a very dangerous game here.
-
33:33 - 33:38And if Turkey really did become...
like, a Pakistan-type scenario, -
33:38 - 33:42is that really an intended
consequence of this? -
33:42 - 33:44I know, I don't want to keep
bringing back... -
33:44 - 33:46(Sibel) No, absolutely. Absolutely, it is.
-
33:46 - 33:51Because you have to look at the last,
let's say, 8-10 years -
33:51 - 33:53of what's been happening with Turkey.
-
33:53 - 33:56Having countries...
-
33:56 - 34:01-- especially the countries that we
control, our allies: -
34:01 - 34:04in this case, you just said Pakistan:
very similar. -- -
34:04 - 34:08having countries weak and not unified,
-
34:08 - 34:11with lots of internal chaos...
-
34:11 - 34:12let's say in Turkey,
-
34:12 - 34:16a Turkey that has a lot of things
going on with the Kurdish sects. -
34:16 - 34:20The Kurds executing some
terror operations, -
34:20 - 34:24the atrocity of Turkish militaries
against the Kurds, -
34:24 - 34:28all the internal chaos created
by that division -
34:28 - 34:32between the Kurdish sects
and the rest of Turkey. -
34:32 - 34:34Then, to have other pockets.
-
34:34 - 34:41Division along the extremist religious
people there, -
34:41 - 34:42versus the secular.
-
34:42 - 34:47That's what we have always intended
and we wanted... -
34:47 - 34:49-- and we want:
this continues -- -
34:49 - 34:52for countries that are allies.
-
34:52 - 34:54A strong, unified nation,
-
34:54 - 34:56especially for Middle East,
-
34:56 - 35:01for a strategically, geographically
strategic nation, -
35:01 - 35:03is something that we never want.
-
35:03 - 35:04We never want it.
-
35:04 - 35:09We want Iraq that is divided between
Shia and Sunnis and Kurds. -
35:09 - 35:11Because that makes Iraq much weaker,
-
35:11 - 35:16therefore much more susceptible
to be a puppet nation. -
35:16 - 35:17To take over, to take over their oil.
-
35:17 - 35:19Same thing with Pakistan.
-
35:19 - 35:21Same thing with Turkey.
-
35:21 - 35:22Now, what has been scaring...
-
35:22 - 35:24because there has been so much
-
35:24 - 35:29going on with the mainstream
media reporting on Turkey -
35:29 - 35:32in the past five, six years here
in the United States, -
35:32 - 35:37is a government that they don't like,
-
35:37 - 35:40and a country that has started
becoming economically strong. -
35:40 - 35:43If you look at what has been happening,
-
35:43 - 35:49or what really happened with
Europe in 2008, 2009 and 2010, -
35:49 - 35:50and turn around and look at what has...
-
35:50 - 35:52-- economically, I'm talking about --
-
35:52 - 35:55what has been happening during
the same years, -
35:55 - 35:57those same years, in Turkey,
-
35:57 - 36:01you see Turkey was one of the
only nations there in the region -
36:01 - 36:05that with economy that actually
got stronger and better -
36:05 - 36:08without all the havoc that was
taking place in Europe. -
36:08 - 36:09That's number one.
-
36:09 - 36:13Number two: you see what happened
with the protests. -
36:13 - 36:16The Gezi protests and all the chaos
-
36:16 - 36:19that were completely scripted
and implemented in Turkey -
36:19 - 36:24by the United States, by the
Gladio operation -
36:24 - 36:30being defeated. Because they...
and there was so much coverage -
36:30 - 36:33when they were talking about
the elections coming -
36:33 - 36:35and Erdoğan was not gonna be elected.
-
36:35 - 36:38But Turkey still stood unified,
-
36:38 - 36:39and they re-elected this guy.
-
36:39 - 36:41So I'm not saying this guy is good
or is bad. -
36:41 - 36:47We never, ever, in the Middle East,
intend to have -
36:47 - 36:50any allies that can be strong and unified.
-
36:50 - 36:55So taking countries and making sure
-
36:55 - 36:58that they are bogged down by
all these divisions -
36:58 - 37:01and internal conflicts between
various sects, -
37:01 - 37:05either along the religious lines,
Sunni versus Shia, -
37:05 - 37:10or along race, or along the ideologies:
-
37:10 - 37:16that has been the recipe of...
-
37:16 - 37:20and again, this is really interesting
because, Tom, -
37:20 - 37:22this is something that we took from...
-
37:22 - 37:25-- I don't want to say "inherited..." --
-
37:25 - 37:27but took from the Brits,
the British Empire. -
37:27 - 37:28(Tom) Sure.
-
37:28 - 37:32(Sibel) Because that has always been
the modus operandi -
37:32 - 37:36of the British Empire. The divide
and conquer. -
37:36 - 37:38And that has been, even in Iran,
-
37:38 - 37:43it's always been the tool utilized
and the modus operandi -
37:43 - 37:47put in place and practiced by the
British Empire, -
37:47 - 37:52and it is now part of the Gladio and
the United States' modus operandi. -
37:52 - 37:55So for... we don't want a strong Turkey.
-
37:55 - 37:58We don't want a peaceful, unified Turkey.
-
37:58 - 37:59We do not want a strong Iraq.
-
37:59 - 38:01I mean, one of the...
-
38:01 - 38:03look at, when we were taking over Iraq...
-
38:03 - 38:09-- the war against Iraq, and then
Saddam, and going in there -- -
38:09 - 38:11one of the things that made it
much easier... -
38:11 - 38:15-- and the chaos that's going on there,
currently, is completely intended -- -
38:15 - 38:18was the country was not one country.
-
38:18 - 38:22In the north, you had these whole
big Kurds who are against Saddam -
38:22 - 38:25they have had their internal wars
for years and years -
38:25 - 38:27between Saddam and the Kurds.
-
38:27 - 38:29In the south, we had the Shias.
-
38:29 - 38:31And in the center, we had the Sunnis.
-
38:31 - 38:33And even during the First Gulf War,
-
38:33 - 38:35that, again, was used:
-
38:35 - 38:38with the Kurds in the north
and the Shias in the south, -
38:38 - 38:41and, look: all the people that
got massacred and killed -
38:41 - 38:42and from all three sides.
-
38:42 - 38:45but that's exactly what we want.
-
38:45 - 38:48And that's exactly what the
British Empire wanted before -
38:48 - 38:53when they re-drew the maps
of the entire region -
38:53 - 38:54and that includes, even, Africa.
-
38:54 - 38:57The maps were drawn in such a way
-
38:57 - 39:02that would keep these countries
to prosper, the region, -
39:02 - 39:05and to be unified, and to be peaceful.
-
39:05 - 39:08These maps, the borders,
-
39:08 - 39:09were all drawn and created
-
39:09 - 39:14based on the division and the
dividing lines -
39:14 - 39:17between the tribes, between
various religious sects. -
39:17 - 39:19So absolutely, this is intended.
-
39:19 - 39:22And as far as to what end,
-
39:22 - 39:25this is why the book gets into,
well, Operation Gladio B -
39:25 - 39:28will be Operation Gladio C at some point
-
39:28 - 39:30and Gladio C will be Gladio D
-
39:30 - 39:34because one region you don't
hear American media talking about -
39:34 - 39:37it China and the Xinjiang region.
-
39:37 - 39:40They call it [East] Turkestan,
they call it Uyghuristan. -
39:40 - 39:45The Uyghurs, well, these are
the Muslim minorities -
39:45 - 39:48in that region of China.
-
39:48 - 39:50And they are Turkic heritage,
-
39:50 - 39:53and we don't hear much about that.
-
39:53 - 39:54But that is in the plan.
-
39:54 - 39:56That is part of Operation Gladio.
-
39:56 - 40:00And what we want, basically, is...
-
40:00 - 40:01and that's what's gonna happen.
-
40:01 - 40:03You're gonna see this happening
-
40:03 - 40:06in the next, I would say, less than five,
six years. -
40:06 - 40:09You see, once in a while, they talk
about the US media -
40:09 - 40:14how oppressive the Chinese regime
is against these people. -
40:14 - 40:17You know, these people, they don't
consider themselves Chinese. -
40:17 - 40:18They consider themselves Muslims.
-
40:18 - 40:20They consider themselves Uyghurs.
-
40:20 - 40:21They consider themselves Turkic.
-
40:21 - 40:23Their language is Turkic, OK?
-
40:23 - 40:25They want independence.
-
40:25 - 40:28Well, we have been cultivating that
for the past... -
40:28 - 40:33since 1997, 1996 there, OK?
-
40:33 - 40:35And what we want is
-
40:35 - 40:39we want some of these terror incidents
-
40:39 - 40:41and the escalation of that,
-
40:41 - 40:45and getting China to increase its
oppression and react, -
40:45 - 40:50because China wants to [xx] they just
want to defend their interests, -
40:50 - 40:54then show that to the international
community by saying, -
40:54 - 40:57"Look, these poor little minority
groups there," -
40:57 - 41:00"They are being crucified. They are
being massacred" -
41:00 - 41:02"It's almost like genocide."
-
41:02 - 41:04They want this genocidal operation,
-
41:04 - 41:09they want it to escalate to the point
of genocidal operations, -
41:09 - 41:11they want to push China into reacting
-
41:11 - 41:14and turning this into a genocidal
operations. -
41:14 - 41:18So then, with the consent of the
international community, -
41:18 - 41:22we go there, in there, and say we
are here to stand by the sects -
41:22 - 41:25because we are such great nation.
-
41:25 - 41:27We care a lot [laughter]
-
41:27 - 41:29about humanity.
-
41:29 - 41:32And we always have these great
intentions. -
41:32 - 41:35It's always because we want to democrat---
-
41:35 - 41:38we bring democracy and
democratize a nation. -
41:38 - 41:40We want to protect some underdog.
-
41:40 - 41:43We want to defend some minority groups
-
41:43 - 41:45because we are that kind of nation, guys.
-
41:45 - 41:49OK? That's what we always,
always have done, right? -
41:49 - 41:50You know, it's always glorified.
-
41:50 - 41:52We always intend good things.
-
41:52 - 41:55And look, bad things happen as a result:
but they are unintended. -
41:55 - 41:57Again, going back to "blowback."
-
41:57 - 41:58But once we have that,
-
41:58 - 42:01once we have a situation escalate
-
42:01 - 42:03and we are pushing it to that degree
-
42:03 - 42:05-- this is all planned: it's been in
motion since 1996 -- -
42:05 - 42:08then we're gonna say, "We've got to
help these guys," -
42:08 - 42:09"so we've got to put our military there,"
-
42:09 - 42:12and it's going to be another Taiwan.
-
42:12 - 42:14That's the intention, OK?
-
42:14 - 42:15That's the objective.
-
42:15 - 42:20We want to separate Xinjiang area
from the rest of mainland China. -
42:20 - 42:24We will put a base there, in the name
of protecting these minorities, -
42:24 - 42:27and we're gonna turn it to
another Taiwan. -
42:27 - 42:29That is the ultimate goal.
-
42:29 - 42:31And look and see where Xinjiang is:
-
42:31 - 42:37not only for us to get close to China
just the way we are doing with Russia, -
42:37 - 42:40with using the Caucasus and Central Asia,
-
42:40 - 42:43this is the start for us with this
Xinjiang region -
42:43 - 42:47to exactly implement the same objective,
the same plan -
42:47 - 42:50and get close to China and close in
on China. -
42:50 - 42:51So, that's number one.
-
42:51 - 42:56And number two, if you look at the
pipeline scenario -
42:56 - 42:58-- this is for the oil and gas --
-
42:58 - 43:04the oil and gas resource-rich regions
of Central Asia and Caucasus, -
43:04 - 43:07when you look at Turkmenistan
and Kazakhstan, et cetera, -
43:07 - 43:09and you see all the business deals
-
43:09 - 43:13between China and these
Central Asia/Caucasus, -
43:13 - 43:15ex-Soviet nations...
-
43:15 - 43:18--because how many billion people
are in China? -- -
43:18 - 43:23China has the greatest need for
energy resources -
43:23 - 43:25compared to any other nation
in the world. -
43:25 - 43:28They need this oil, they need this gas,
-
43:28 - 43:31and they are putting all these pipelines
to bring... -
43:31 - 43:32-- with business deals --
-
43:32 - 43:38this needed gas and oil into China.
Into mainland china. -
43:38 - 43:41Well, go and see where these pipelines
pass through. -
43:41 - 43:46Then you start realizing the significance
of the Xinjiang region. -
43:46 - 43:52So by having our power, our military
boots on the ground, -
43:52 - 43:54our base there in Xinjiang,
-
43:54 - 43:56not only we are controlling getting
close to China, -
43:56 - 43:59but we are sitting in the section
-
43:59 - 44:05that is the [xx] that the pipelines entry
into mainland China. -
44:05 - 44:10We can starve and deprive China of all
oil and gas -
44:10 - 44:13coming from that region by sitting there.
-
44:13 - 44:19So that's the area you don't hear much
from the mainstream media, US, -
44:19 - 44:21even though so much has been
taking place. -
44:21 - 44:27They only broadcast when China reacts
to some terror incidents that we manage -
44:27 - 44:30-- "we" being the United States,
Operation Gladio -- -
44:30 - 44:34by the Xinjiang Uyghurs, and show
how despotic they are. -
44:34 - 44:38You know, they go there and they are
oppressing people, repressing people, -
44:38 - 44:41they are killing people, they are
jailing people, -
44:41 - 44:44awful stuff that China is doing to
these people, right? -
44:44 - 44:47We don't show the casualties of
when these groups, our groups, -
44:47 - 44:50implement terror operations in
mainland China, -
44:50 - 44:52but we right away broadcast
what China did. -
44:52 - 44:56So we are basically massaging
the peoples, -
44:56 - 44:59Americans and also
international communities, -
44:59 - 45:01and even especially the Muslim region,
-
45:01 - 45:05of, "Look, what is China doing
to these people?" -
45:05 - 45:06The same thing we've been doing with,
-
45:06 - 45:09"Look what Russians are doing
to Chechens!' -
45:09 - 45:12Exactly the same scenario.
-
45:12 - 45:13It's the same Operation Gladio.
-
45:13 - 45:16And again, when you said, "To what end?"
-
45:16 - 45:19That's... we are... we have these
objectives in place. -
45:19 - 45:22Not "we:" the Operation;
the Operation Gladio. -
45:22 - 45:25And China and getting close,
-
45:25 - 45:31controlling the entry of the needed oil
and gas into China -
45:31 - 45:35thus containing China from becoming
the superpower, -
45:35 - 45:40is in motion. And the same thing
with Russia. -
45:40 - 45:43And of course we have the prize
there that we haven't done anything. -
45:43 - 45:46That's for the next administration.
-
45:46 - 45:49Right now, we have Syria.
We had Libya before that. -
45:49 - 45:53Yemen, Afghanistan with... we're
gonna stay there. -
45:53 - 45:55Of course that's gonna be our
permanent base. -
45:55 - 45:57There's no question about that.
-
45:57 - 45:59Pakistan is our puppet region.
-
45:59 - 46:02Of course, these regions sometimes
play off of US against China. -
46:02 - 46:07"OK, so you do this, then I'm gonna
go and make a deal with China." -
46:07 - 46:08Well, we don't want that, right?
-
46:08 - 46:12And again, that ends up being
some headlines once in a while, -
46:12 - 46:16but the importance of it is way beyond
what the US media -
46:16 - 46:19represents in its reporting.
-
46:19 - 46:21So of course the prize being Iran there.
-
46:21 - 46:23And between Central Asia, Caucasus,
-
46:23 - 46:25Iran, Afghanistan,
-
46:25 - 46:29the goal is whoever controls
the resources, -
46:29 - 46:35the needed resources: the oil, the gas, the needed minerals --
-
46:35 - 46:37that is the superpower.
-
46:38 - 46:42That is the sole empire of the globe, the world.
-
46:42 - 46:46And we have been doing it through
Operation Gladio, -
46:46 - 46:50and of course with our more
militaristic covert wars. -
46:50 - 46:51But then look at our competitors,
-
46:51 - 46:53supposedly our enemies,
-
46:53 - 46:54China and Russia:
-
46:54 - 46:56we haven't seen anything like that
from them. -
46:56 - 46:59And so that is our modus operandi,
-
46:59 - 47:00and that is the objective.
-
47:00 - 47:04The objective is who is going to be
the sole superpower, -
47:04 - 47:05the super-empire.
-
47:05 - 47:07And as long as that's the objective,
-
47:07 - 47:08these are the things we're
gonna be doing. -
47:08 - 47:13(Pearse) Hmm. And I think that you're
really right in pointing out that this is... -
47:13 - 47:17the situation in Xinjiang right now is
actually starting -
47:17 - 47:19to get more, sort of, intense;
-
47:19 - 47:21and we're already seeing Uyghurs
-
47:21 - 47:23that were fighting in Iraq
that were captured. -
47:23 - 47:26And it seems that perhaps
-
47:26 - 47:29we are entering into a different
phase of Gladio. -
47:29 - 47:32And just briefly, I just wanted to take
your take on -
47:32 - 47:35Tarkhan Batirashvili or Omar al-Shishani,
-
47:35 - 47:38who is the "Ginger Jihadi."
-
47:38 - 47:41And he seems to have been thrust
into the spotlight of ISIS. -
47:41 - 47:45There was a Daily Beast article calling
him "The Bin Laden of the Group." -
47:45 - 47:48Of course, and then a little bit down
in the article they say, -
47:48 - 47:51"Well, his brother is really the brains
behind all of this." -
47:51 - 47:54And Batirashvili has a somewhat
similar background -
47:54 - 47:57to a character in The Lone Gladio,
Yusuf Mohammed -
47:57 - 48:00and we'll leave that to the audience
to decipher who is is. -
48:00 - 48:03But of course, Batirashvili was trained
by the Americans -
48:03 - 48:05in a Georgian Special Forces outfit,
-
48:05 - 48:08fought against the Russians in Chechnya,
-
48:08 - 48:11and he has repeatedly said that he wants
-
48:11 - 48:14to bring the fight back to Kadyrov
and Putin, -
48:14 - 48:16with not so much as a peep out
of Georgia. -
48:16 - 48:19So I just wanted to see and get your
take on this, Sibel. -
48:19 - 48:25And is this a, sort of, new ramping up?
-
48:25 - 48:31Are we going to go from the small-scale
attacks like in The Lone Gladio, -
48:31 - 48:35like the bombing in the Defense Ministry
in the beginning of the book, -
48:35 - 48:38to a more, sort of, open war with Russia?
-
48:38 - 48:44And with, perhaps, this Batirashvili --
this white jihadi guy -- at the forefront? -
48:44 - 48:49(Sibel) My answer, I guess, will have
three different segments into it. -
48:49 - 48:52Number one, that's right: you mentioned
the character Yusuf Mohammed. -
48:52 - 48:58But the biography, the summary short
biography that you just mentioned, -
48:58 - 49:01fits exactly Ayman Zawahiri's.
-
49:01 - 49:02Mm.
-
49:02 - 49:05OK? Ayman Zawahiri was jailed;
he was tortured. -
49:05 - 49:10Then he went there and became the
lieutenant for Osama Bin Laden -
49:10 - 49:17and was fighting against Russia in...
with mujahideen cell in Afghanistan. -
49:17 - 49:20So you... as you said, you're looking
at the repeated bios. -
49:20 - 49:24So these are the... the profiles are
so consistent. -
49:24 - 49:27See, that's one of the other
interesting things -
49:27 - 49:30about the United States and NATO,
-
49:30 - 49:32the Operation Gladio,
-
49:32 - 49:33and that is the consistency.
-
49:33 - 49:38Really, you may see some small
variations here and there, -
49:38 - 49:41but if you look at it overall,
-
49:41 - 49:44the script is the same. The scenario
is the same. -
49:44 - 49:49I mean, in a way: it's awful, but it's
also boring. -
49:49 - 49:50But guess what?
-
49:50 - 49:53If it works, if it ain't break,
don't fix it, right? -
49:53 - 49:54That's how the saying goes?
-
49:54 - 49:57It worked with Afghanistan,
-
49:57 - 50:00it worked with... it has been working.
-
50:00 - 50:03So why change it, right?
-
50:03 - 50:05So that's number one aspect of it.
-
50:05 - 50:08That the bios being exactly consistent
as the rest of them. -
50:08 - 50:12you know, Zawahiri and Yusuf Mohammed.
-
50:12 - 50:14And the second part of it
-
50:14 - 50:18has to do with the psychological
aspects of it. -
50:18 - 50:19And this is the psychological warfare,
-
50:19 - 50:22and also propaganda.
-
50:22 - 50:27And that is when you put... let's say
you have an enemy cell. -
50:27 - 50:30ISIS, ISIS, right? They are doing
these ferocious things. -
50:30 - 50:33It goes only so far.
-
50:33 - 50:35Of course, let's say, look at the
Americans' opinion: -
50:35 - 50:39these barbaric Muslims -- they
are Islamists, number one. -
50:39 - 50:41"This is what Islam advocates,"
-
50:41 - 50:44"and these barbaric extremists,
they're doing all this stuff. " -
50:44 - 50:47Goes... it's effective; but it goes
only so far. -
50:47 - 50:52What you always need in a
psychological warfare and propaganda -
50:52 - 50:56is to put a human, actual human face
and name to it. -
50:56 - 51:00Because then, that makes it so
personal, right? -
51:00 - 51:05Because, as we did with Osama Bin Laden.
-
51:05 - 51:09Showing the picture of that Khalid
Sheikh Mohammed. -
51:09 - 51:12That evil-looking guy, you know?
He's crazy, right? -
51:12 - 51:13"MOOONSTER!"
-
51:13 - 51:16So we associate, when we think
about the Americans... -
51:16 - 51:17you know, people,
-
51:17 - 51:21then we are thinking about these
horrifying boogeymen. -
51:21 - 51:23If we don't have, put some pictures
there... -
51:23 - 51:25you know, it's like Freddy Krueger,
right? -
51:25 - 51:30Freddy Kruger. I mean, you can write
all the stories about Freddy Krueger, -
51:30 - 51:34but if you don't create an image
that goes with Freddy Krueger, -
51:34 - 51:38Freddy Krueger can't become
that monstrously scary, right? -
51:38 - 51:43So Osama Bin Laden, with that long
beard and the dark, piercing black eyes, -
51:43 - 51:48that screams evil, and you have Khalid
Sheikh Mohammed, that crazed guy there. -
51:48 - 51:52And then you are looking at
Ayman Zawahiri, -
51:52 - 51:56and the photos when he's talking
passionate with his index finger up, -
51:56 - 52:00you know, the extremist Islamist
mullah with his headpiece. -
52:00 - 52:01Well, those are effective.
-
52:01 - 52:05Because just like Hollywood movies,
just like Freddy Krueger, -
52:05 - 52:07you need to have a human face
and name -
52:07 - 52:11that you make it synonymous with
whatever cell -
52:11 - 52:14you have created and put in
place, right? -
52:14 - 52:16And that's exactly what we are
seeing with this guy. -
52:16 - 52:20Because ISIS, ISIL, IS -- they did this?
OK, that's fine. -
52:20 - 52:25But now it's time to enter, to bring in
-
52:25 - 52:27and introduce the face that
represents it all. -
52:27 - 52:30Now, you have [xx] this person.
-
52:30 - 52:32So that's the second segment.
-
52:32 - 52:34And as far as yet bigger war,
-
52:34 - 52:40I think we are putting things in place
for that if needed, -
52:40 - 52:44but I will offer my own
hypothesis theory. -
52:44 - 52:46Because I don't know this for a fact,
-
52:46 - 52:49but if someone were to ask me to speculate
-
52:49 - 52:53and say when and why...
when we would do such things, -
52:53 - 52:55in terms of going into full-blown war,
-
52:55 - 52:58this is what I have to offer.
-
52:58 - 53:01Again, this is based on my own analysis
and opinion, -
53:01 - 53:04and I'm not going to market it as,
"Oh, this is pure fact." -
53:04 - 53:06This is my opinion.
-
53:06 - 53:09First of all, we are going to see much
more stuff -
53:09 - 53:11with Georgia, Abkhazia region.
-
53:11 - 53:15We had that -- what was it? -- six-day
war, eight-day war a few years ago? -
53:15 - 53:16That was just a warm-up.
-
53:16 - 53:22But with Georgia's candidacy,
integration into NATO that is coming, -
53:22 - 53:26that is going to happen in that region.
-
53:26 - 53:30We're gonna see more conflict
and confrontation there. -
53:30 - 53:34Similar to Ukraine, we're gonna see it
in the Abkhazia region there. -
53:34 - 53:37And again, these terror cells and
the groups, -
53:37 - 53:40we have already cultivated,
put together, put in place, -
53:40 - 53:41we've been managing in that region.
-
53:41 - 53:44We got a little bit of taste of
that during -
53:44 - 53:47the so-called false flag Boston
bombing. -
53:47 - 53:49People started hearing,
-
53:49 - 53:51at least their ears got a little bit
used to, -
53:51 - 53:54this "Dagestan" region?
-
53:54 - 53:55[laughter]
-
53:55 - 53:56You see?
-
53:56 - 53:58Because ordinarily, most Americans:
they don't like geography, OK? -
53:58 - 54:03They like to view the world as this...
the United States of America. -
54:03 - 54:05OK? It's huge.
-
54:05 - 54:07Look, Turkey's the size of Texas, right?
-
54:07 - 54:09Well, I don't even know where Turkey
exactly is. -
54:09 - 54:10We are a big country,
-
54:10 - 54:12we are just by ourselves here.
-
54:12 - 54:15There are some countries and nations
with weird names, oh, -
54:15 - 54:17thousands of miles away.
-
54:17 - 54:18Who needs to know about them?
-
54:18 - 54:20If you were to ask Americans,
-
54:20 - 54:24I would say 94 percent -- I'm just gonna
throw a number here -- -
54:24 - 54:26if you put the map and say,
-
54:26 - 54:31"OK, put your finger on the region that
is considered Caucasus/Central Asia," -
54:31 - 54:34I can guarantee you, if we were to
implement this test, -
54:34 - 54:37You would see that 94% of Americans,
-
54:37 - 54:39their index finger would freeze
in the air. -
54:39 - 54:43"What?" "Can you show me Kyrgyzstan?"
"What's that?" -
54:43 - 54:47I mean, I'll just give you a quick...
it's not a joke, it's a real-life thing. -
54:47 - 54:50When I started college, university
here in the United States -- -
54:50 - 54:55and this is during my second, third year,
so this is not in high school -
54:55 - 54:56this is in college-level
-
54:56 - 54:59this one guy in my class, he says,
"You're from Turkey, right?" -
54:59 - 55:01I said, "Yeah, I'm from Turkey."
-
55:01 - 55:04He says, "Turkey is in Saudi Arabia,
right?" -
55:04 - 55:05"One of the nations in Saudi Arabia?"
-
55:05 - 55:08And I was like, "Oh my goodness."
-
55:08 - 55:11They have made Saudi Arabia a continent,
-
55:12 - 55:17And Turkey a nation in that
continent called Saudi Arabia. -
55:17 - 55:18But unfortunately
-
55:18 - 55:20-- this is a fact; this is true, OK? --
-
55:20 - 55:25we... I spent years living in
other countries. -
55:25 - 55:26I lived in Vietnam for a year.
-
55:26 - 55:31I lived in Russia in 1992, right after
the end of the Cold War. -
55:31 - 55:36And I have traveled to a lot of
places, to many, many countries. -
55:36 - 55:41But when it comes to geography,
with Americans, -
55:41 - 55:45I never... I'm still amazed, OK?
It is just... -
55:45 - 55:48and then I traveled... another thing
I noticed, like, when I was -
55:48 - 55:50when I was there, when I was in Vietnam,
-
55:50 - 55:54I saw all these backpackers
from Scandinavian nations -
55:54 - 55:57Australia, New Zealand, a lot of Brits.
-
55:57 - 55:59You know, they are 21, right
out of college. -
55:59 - 56:01Or they are taking a break from college.
-
56:01 - 56:06And they have their backpacks, and they
are traveling all over Laos and Vietnam. -
56:06 - 56:08And I struck a friendship with a lot of
these people. -
56:08 - 56:10You hardly see Americans doing that.
-
56:10 - 56:17There is this inherent desire to explore
the world by some of those nations. -
56:17 - 56:19But you don't see it much for Americans.
-
56:19 - 56:24That's another thing: that worldliness
which reduces xenophobia. -
56:24 - 56:25When you start getting more familiar,
-
56:25 - 56:31the culture and other traditions and
people and races, -
56:31 - 56:34that kind of reduces your xenophobia,
-
56:34 - 56:38but also it makes you an informed
person about the world. -
56:38 - 56:41It makes you worldly.
Well, you don't see that much in America. -
56:41 - 56:44So, going back to the topic
of Kyrgyzstan, -
56:44 - 56:45"I don't even know where that is,"
-
56:45 - 56:49we are going to see this conflict.
-
56:49 - 56:51We have already planted that.
-
56:51 - 56:54We said, "Let's make Americans
familiar with this name Dagestan"' -
56:54 - 56:58Dagestan and terrorism have become
kind of synonymous -
56:58 - 56:59thanks to the Boston bombing.
-
56:59 - 57:02So Chechen, Dagestan, these people came,
-
57:02 - 57:03they're extremists.
-
57:03 - 57:05They're somehow related
-
57:05 - 57:08to either al-Qaeda or Jamaati
[sic: Jabhat?] al-Nusra... whatever. -
57:08 - 57:10But that region has many,
many terrorists, OK? -
57:10 - 57:15We are going to reintroduce that
topic again as a nation, -
57:15 - 57:18as Operation Gladio, when the time
comes, which is going to be soon -
57:18 - 57:20in Georgia, Abkhazia region.
-
57:20 - 57:22But as far as a bigger war with Russia,
-
57:22 - 57:27I doubt it under current circumstances.
That's my opinion, -
57:27 - 57:29because of Putin and who Putin is.
-
57:29 - 57:32And again, Putin's rating went
up in Russia, -
57:32 - 57:36and Putin's popularity really went
up there. -
57:36 - 57:40And Putin has been portrayed,
even here by US media, -
57:40 - 57:44as a tough, nationalistic leader
in Russia, right? -
57:44 - 57:47Because Putin is standing up
to the United States. -
57:47 - 57:50He did -- he and the Russians --
-
57:50 - 57:54when we were talking about going
into Syria two years ago, right? -
57:54 - 57:56And of course what we saw with Ukraine.
-
57:56 - 58:03My theory is just like the limited
opposition framed and controlled, -
58:03 - 58:07I believe there is... we have Putin tied,
-
58:07 - 58:13and into a certain degree, Putin
can only do it so much. -
58:13 - 58:16And you're going to say, why that is?
-
58:16 - 58:20One of, again, our modus operandi
has been... -
58:20 - 58:24-- and you see it a lot in Operation Gladio-related sections
-
58:24 - 58:25of The Lone Gladio --
-
58:25 - 58:30is blackmail and collecting crap,
shit from people, right? -
58:30 - 58:32I mean, we do it with Congress.
-
58:32 - 58:39Even with the FBI we did it. FBI had files
on some top figures in the House. -
58:39 - 58:47Just in the operation that involved
Turkey and the Turkish lobby, right? -
58:47 - 58:49That was involved in my case.
-
58:49 - 58:52but CIA has been doing it forever,
-
58:52 - 58:54since its inception and creation.
-
58:54 - 58:58There are some Presidents,
and we do that. -
58:58 - 59:00Otherwise they won't become President.
-
59:00 - 59:02That's one of the qualifications,
requirements. -
59:02 - 59:05And again, the book The Lone Gladio
goes into that. -
59:05 - 59:08To be qualified to get to that level,
-
59:08 - 59:09to that level of power seat,
-
59:09 - 59:12you have to have a lot of dirt, OK?
-
59:12 - 59:14That makes you a viable candidate.
-
59:14 - 59:16because you are controllable.
-
59:16 - 59:20If you don't have lots of skeletons
and dirt, -
59:20 - 59:22you are not as easily controllable.
-
59:22 - 59:29It's pure and simple. Well we've been
doing that with, also, world leaders. -
59:29 - 59:31It just came out and leaked that, OK,
-
59:31 - 59:34we've been collecting dirt on Angela
Merkel, right? -
59:34 - 59:39With this NSA spying: her personal
phones were being listened to, correct? -
59:39 - 59:43Well, why would we do that?
Think about it. -
59:43 - 59:45Because at any given time...
-
59:45 - 59:49let's say someone like Angela Merkel, if
she was not the scumbag that she is, OK? -
59:49 - 59:55And we decided that you know, Germany,
or this country or that country, -
59:55 - 59:57is not backing us with this,
-
59:57 - 59:59what would happen if we...
-
59:59 - 60:02-- "We," the United States;
Operation Gladio -- -
60:02 - 60:09would release to the media in France,
or in Germany, or in UK? -
60:09 - 60:11All sorts of recorded tapes,
-
60:11 - 60:15and also maybe some Internet activities
-
60:15 - 60:18showing that this particular leader
is a pedophile, OK? -
60:18 - 60:20Let's say... you know, let's say Sarkozy.
-
60:20 - 60:23I'm just giving you a hypothetical
example. -
60:23 - 60:28What would happen if all these pictures
come out -
60:28 - 60:30that Sarkozy has been having
-
60:30 - 60:32this relationship with five,
six-years-old boys -
60:32 - 60:36and, through... and he's been a pedophile?
-
60:36 - 60:38Can you imagine right away that leader
not disappearing from that country? -
60:38 - 60:42We have that power, because we've
been... we've been doing this a lot. -
60:42 - 60:49We first use what we collect on the
world leaders in terms of blackmail -
60:49 - 60:53by saying, "You know what? You don't
do this and we will expose this." -
60:53 - 60:57OK? Number two, if needed, we would
do that. -
60:57 - 61:02Some things happen with the Bakayev
family in Kyrgyzstan -
61:02 - 61:06A lot of things are associated with that
that I'm not gonna get into right now. -
61:06 - 61:12But with Putin, it's already estimated
that his net worth, his wealth, -
61:12 - 61:14is way over $500 million dollars, OK?
-
61:14 - 61:19Where is his money?
As of 2003, 2004 -- -
61:19 - 61:23and this is based on direct,
first/second-hand information -
61:23 - 61:25from people within intelligence community
-
61:25 - 61:32a lot of his wealth is kept in the Greek
portion of Cyprus, the banks there. -
61:32 - 61:36And they're... so if intelligence
agencies, -
61:36 - 61:40CIA, and even through
counterintelligence monitoring FBI, -
61:40 - 61:45knows and has all the information
-
61:45 - 61:47about where Putin keeps some
of his wealth, -
61:47 - 61:50or if some other leader
keeps it in Dubai, -
61:50 - 61:54this ones keeps it -- let's say,
hypothetically speaking, -
61:54 - 61:57Putin keeps it in certain banks in Malta?
-
61:57 - 61:59OK? Malta is another important place.
-
61:59 - 62:00Nobody talks about it,
-
62:00 - 62:04but in terms of the money laundering
and the financial operations center -
62:04 - 62:06and in Cyprus.
-
62:06 - 62:12And if this were to come out in Russia --
how did he get this wealth, OK? -
62:12 - 62:15Because this is the nation's wealth
that leaders go and take out, right? -
62:15 - 62:18In countries like... whatever countries
that you look at. -
62:18 - 62:20And where they are kept.
-
62:20 - 62:22They can...
-
62:22 - 62:23-- and this is the Operation Gladio,
-
62:23 - 62:25this is the United States,
this is the UK -- -
62:25 - 62:29they can make Putin a scandalous leader
-
62:29 - 62:32and take away all his popularity
-
62:32 - 62:35in less than a day, if they wanted to.
-
62:35 - 62:38If they wanted to.
-
62:38 - 62:44So you are looking at a leader,
let's say in Russia, that has to -
62:44 - 62:48balance... has to balance two things.
-
62:48 - 62:53Number one, to appeal to the
nationalistic side of its nation -
62:53 - 62:58Because any leader of Russia has to
kind of be tough -
62:58 - 63:00when it comes to the Western powers,
right? -
63:00 - 63:01Because it was not that long ago
-
63:01 - 63:04when Russia was the Soviet Union.
-
63:04 - 63:06It was the second empire in the world.
-
63:06 - 63:09It was the Western empire, and it
was the Soviet Union, OK? -
63:09 - 63:11So in order to stay in power,
-
63:12 - 63:17that leader has to appeal and maintain
that faith of the people there, -
63:17 - 63:20that he's tough, and he can stand up.
-
63:20 - 63:22He's not a butler, OK? He's not weak.
-
63:22 - 63:23He can stand up to the United States.
-
63:23 - 63:26He can growl and say, "Rawwwrr!" OK?
-
63:26 - 63:30Or maybe bark a little bit, and say,
"Woof, woof!" OK? -
63:30 - 63:31But, he won't bite.
-
63:31 - 63:35Because then that leader has
to balance it. -
63:35 - 63:38Because we know Russia has a
lot of corrupt people. -
63:38 - 63:41We know that. I lived there for a
year, OK? -
63:41 - 63:47And I know how a lot of top-level
KGB, former KGB people -
63:47 - 63:51got to be some of the top business
people we hear about today, -
63:51 - 63:56with hundreds of million or billion
dollars net worth. -
63:56 - 63:59So that... you need a leader that
can growl, -
63:59 - 64:03that can bark a little bit when the
situation arises, -
64:03 - 64:07and appeal to his people's
nationalistic tendencies. -
64:07 - 64:10They still have that pride, Russians.
-
64:10 - 64:13But yet, do it to a certain degree,
-
64:13 - 64:16and not totally piss off and totally
stand up to -
64:16 - 64:20the Western nations that have
the blackmail power. -
64:20 - 64:23That have the power to expose him, OK?
-
64:23 - 64:27That is, I believe, what we see
with Putin. -
64:27 - 64:30We do see some really
nice-looking growling, -
64:30 - 64:32and a little woof-woof,
-
64:32 - 64:34but Putin is not going to bite.
-
64:34 - 64:37And as long as Putin is in this position,
-
64:37 - 64:41I don't believe that we are going to
see a full-blown war with Russia. -
64:41 - 64:45It's not gonna happen, because
another thing you should look at is, -
64:45 - 64:47ask yourself,
-
64:47 - 64:48and I'm gonna ask, because you both
-
64:48 - 64:52are experts with this whole area
and the region, -
64:52 - 64:59how come Russia really hasn't done
anything in the past 15 years -
64:59 - 65:06when the United States and NATO
has been closing in to Russia's borders -
65:06 - 65:08by taking over Azerbaijan,
-
65:08 - 65:12you know, until last year, Manas,
Kyrgyzstan; -
65:12 - 65:15Georgia, OK?
-
65:15 - 65:20And you start looking at all this,
and say, "Whoa!" -
65:20 - 65:21Think about it!
-
65:21 - 65:27Why, for the past 14, 15 years,
Russia hasn't become really antsy. -
65:27 - 65:29Saying, "Well, these are my
backdoor neighbors." -
65:29 - 65:31"They're right there on my border."
-
65:31 - 65:33Think about it: why not?
-
65:33 - 65:35Let me put it on the other hand and say,
-
65:35 - 65:36what would happen...
-
65:36 - 65:41imagine, what would happen if Russia
starts building closer relationship -
65:41 - 65:43-- business relationship; militaristically,
relationship -- -
65:43 - 65:45with Mexico,
-
65:45 - 65:48and starts coming to Mexico
and put a huge base there -
65:48 - 65:52with 15,000 boots on the ground
in the base, with Mexico? -
65:52 - 65:54Oh, it would be chaos!
-
65:54 - 65:56Can you imagine?
-
65:56 - 65:59First of all, we would not, as United
States, let it get to that point, right? -
65:59 - 66:03And even as a notion would arise,
-
66:03 - 66:07we would start using what power we
have with Mexico, right? -
66:07 - 66:09And do everything: that would not happen.
-
66:09 - 66:12It would not happen. Not...
-
66:12 - 66:13or in Canada, OK?
-
66:13 - 66:15Or even let's go further:
-
66:15 - 66:17what would happen if, Russia says,
-
66:17 - 66:18"Now I'm gonna go and put a base,"
-
66:18 - 66:20"because I have now put this
relationship," -
66:20 - 66:23because a lot of these nations,
all you have to do is make a contract, -
66:23 - 66:25business contract for $15 billion
dollars, -
66:25 - 66:27you have the country and its leader.
-
66:27 - 66:30And I'm gonna put it in Panama, OK?
Where the canal is. ; -
66:30 - 66:32Put myself strategically in that
situation. -
66:32 - 66:35Can you imagine that being allowed?
-
66:35 - 66:39It wouldn't even come close
to implementation. -
66:39 - 66:42Now, let's go back to the other side.
-
66:42 - 66:44How come, for the last 15 years,
-
66:44 - 66:50Russia has not made a peep, sound,
about the United States, NATO, -
66:50 - 66:54going and putting all these bases in all
these countries right along its borders? -
66:54 - 66:55Why?
-
66:55 - 66:55[laughter]
-
66:55 - 66:57(Pearse) I actually don't know,
-
66:57 - 66:58because I see it as...
-
66:58 - 67:01with Abkhazia and now South Ossetia,
-
67:01 - 67:05that Russia might sort of be saying,
"If you're gonna keep moving," -
67:05 - 67:07"Then we'll take these little tiny
areas," -
67:07 - 67:10"And what are the Georgians going to do?"
-
67:10 - 67:12But I don't know. I'd like to hear your...
-
67:12 - 67:13(Sibel) That's right.
-
67:13 - 67:17But that would be similar, it would
be parallel to saying, -
67:17 - 67:23we would let Russia to come and
put this bases in, let's say, in Mexico, -
67:23 - 67:27and then if Russia starts coming
towards Texas -
67:27 - 67:30and do something right along
the Texas border, -
67:30 - 67:32then US may flex its muscle.
-
67:32 - 67:35But we would never let that happen
in the first place, -
67:35 - 67:38to put ourselves in that vulnerable
situation. -
67:38 - 67:44And even the stupidest Russian
general, Russian strategic analyst, -
67:44 - 67:46they would know from 15 years ago
-
67:46 - 67:51that putting these bases by US and
NATO in Kyrgyzstan and Azerbaijan, -
67:51 - 67:56that would definitely lead to what
we saw happening with Ukraine, OK? -
67:56 - 68:01Because the preparation for this
started taking place in mid-'90s. -
68:01 - 68:03When after the fall of the Soviet Union,
-
68:03 - 68:08we started seeing with Eastern Europe
and all these nations, -
68:08 - 68:10we're gonna get closer
and closer and closer: -
68:10 - 68:13during this entire period
of 20 years, almost, -
68:13 - 68:15Russia and Russian leaders...
-
68:15 - 68:19and we know what kind of Russian
leaders we had even before Putin, right? -
68:19 - 68:21Gorbachev? Very nationalistic, you think?
-
68:21 - 68:26Russia sat there and let the
United States and NATO -
68:26 - 68:28closing up on it, right?
-
68:28 - 68:33And closing in, closing in, and
now we saw the stuff with Ukraine, -
68:33 - 68:35and then we're gonna be seeing
with Georgia. -
68:35 - 68:36But it was allowed to happen.
-
68:36 - 68:39They didn't stand up and say,
"Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa!" -
68:39 - 68:42"Over my dead body! You're not coming
this close!" -
68:42 - 68:43They didn't.
-
68:43 - 68:47Meaning, Russia never went to war
for any of these places, -
68:47 - 68:51the colonizations that we have been
putting in place in that region. -
68:51 - 68:53We didn't need to have any war
with Russia. -
68:53 - 68:56We didn't even have any kind of
a posturing war with Russia. -
68:56 - 68:58It happened, very easily. Smooth sail.
-
68:58 - 69:01Thus, this is why I'm thinking
-
69:01 - 69:06that the chances of having a full-blown
war with Russia is highly unlikely, -
69:06 - 69:12unless, unless, we have been
reading the notion and the fact -
69:12 - 69:16that there is a revival of nationalism
in Russia. -
69:16 - 69:22That people, they're... the segment,
the nationalistic segment saying, OK, -
69:22 - 69:26initially, at the end of Cold War, I went
to Russia. -
69:26 - 69:27I lived there for almost a year.
-
69:27 - 69:30It was this huge desire
of Westernization, -
69:30 - 69:32especially in Saint Petersburg
and Moscow. -
69:32 - 69:37I arrived in Moscow from Saint P,
because my base was in Saint Petersburg, -
69:37 - 69:40on the day that the first McDonald's
opened In Moscow, -
69:40 - 69:42in this big center there.
-
69:42 - 69:45And as we were approaching
-
69:45 - 69:47that downtown section where
McDonald's opened, -
69:47 - 69:49the traffic was just stood still.
-
69:49 - 69:54They had this line -- and it was a
very big McDonald's building -- -
69:54 - 69:59there was this line that wrapped around
this McDonald's building for the opening -
69:59 - 70:04that was, like, going around about
14, 15 times. -
70:04 - 70:07And if you would stand them up in
one linear line, -
70:07 - 70:12you would see almost quarter mile of
a line in front of the first McDonald's. -
70:12 - 70:16It was a huge deal, OK?
-
70:16 - 70:17I mean, it was...
-
70:17 - 70:23it was during the shock stage of the
Soviet Union disappearing. -
70:23 - 70:25People didn't know what to think.
-
70:25 - 70:28They had this desire of openness,
they can wear the... -
70:28 - 70:30they can have lipstick. They can go
and buy this lipstick. -
70:30 - 70:32You don't have to buy it from the
black market. -
70:32 - 70:36And then the country was saturated
with all these vultures -
70:36 - 70:38from the US and from Europe.
-
70:38 - 70:41Who were there to take away things
quickly, while things were cheap. -
70:41 - 70:44There was this US group that was buying
-
70:44 - 70:47the high-value downtown real estate.
-
70:47 - 70:49There was no regulation.
-
70:49 - 70:51I mean, it was total chaos,
-
70:51 - 70:53and the Western nations were
taking advantage of it. -
70:53 - 70:55They were just placing themselves,
-
70:55 - 70:57they were putting their boots,
business boots, on the ground. -
70:58 - 71:00But the Russians were just too baffled.
-
71:00 - 71:03They were excited about all the
Western things. -
71:03 - 71:07They were a bit shocked: they couldn't
believe that the Soviet Union was over. -
71:07 - 71:12And so that era of shock and awe for them
-
71:12 - 71:16started kind of wearing off around 2002,
2003. -
71:16 - 71:21Now, gradually, we are seeing, to a
certain degree, -
71:21 - 71:25this revival of nationalism in Russia,
by people who are... -
71:25 - 71:27and maybe ex-generals,
-
71:27 - 71:31maybe some other ex-intelligence
figures from KGB era -
71:31 - 71:36that are seeing the fact that their
mother nation is being surrounded. -
71:36 - 71:38And they are looking, maybe, at Putin,
-
71:38 - 71:40and saying,
"How could you let this happen?" -
71:40 - 71:43OK? And it's the Russian pride.
-
71:43 - 71:47So if, for example, Putin is toppled,
-
71:47 - 71:54and we see a more real, nationalistic
leader come into power, -
71:54 - 71:58then, sure: I would say, then it would be
likely to see some direct confrontation -
71:58 - 72:04with Russia. But as of now, with Putin,
with his limited woof and bark, -
72:04 - 72:07I would say no: it's not likely. It's not.
-
72:07 - 72:11If it were going to happen, we would
have seen it even with Ukraine. -
72:11 - 72:13(Pearse) Yeah.
-
72:13 - 72:15We just saw some level of posturing.
-
72:15 - 72:21And it made him look taller,
and his rating went up. -
72:21 - 72:23But then I was reading just last week,
-
72:23 - 72:25that it's been going gradually
down again. -
72:25 - 72:27Because it gave hope
-
72:27 - 72:30to that nationalistic feeling
on the ground in Russia -
72:30 - 72:33that yeah, they're... our leader is
standing up! -
72:33 - 72:34We're not gonna let this happen!
-
72:34 - 72:36But, it happened.
-
72:36 - 72:40Really, with Ukraine, if you see,
it really happened. -
72:40 - 72:45And I think it's also important to note
that at the end of the day, -
72:45 - 72:48many of these people, while they might
be confrontational in public, -
72:48 - 72:51are essentially working towards the
same end goals -
72:51 - 72:55and, you know, the really, really
independent leaders... -
72:55 - 73:00-- people like Gaddafi or the former
President of the Ivory Coast -- -
73:00 - 73:02you know, those people are taken out.
-
73:02 - 73:04They're really... they're just murdered
and overthrown. -
73:04 - 73:07You know, any sort of independent
leader like that. -
73:07 - 73:09So you know, you do have to
wonder sometimes. -
73:09 - 73:12But I know we've been talking now
for quite a while, -
73:12 - 73:14and Tom, you've been a little quiet,
-
73:14 - 73:16so before we wrap up, Tom,
-
73:16 - 73:19do you have any quick questions
you'd like to ask Sibel? -
73:19 - 73:23(Tom) No, but I am thinking
about this subject -
73:23 - 73:25and this question that you've raised,
-
73:25 - 73:33and I'm not 100 percent convinced
-- I'll say that much -- but... -
73:33 - 73:36it is an interesting question.
-
73:36 - 73:38Maybe that would be a good place
to kick off -
73:38 - 73:40a further conversation on this,
-
73:40 - 73:45because we've perhaps got to the end
of our conversation -
73:45 - 73:47about The Lone Gladio per se
-
73:47 - 73:51but a lot of this stuff that's spinning
out from this conversation, I think, -
73:51 - 73:54is certainly worthy of greater
discussion. -
73:54 - 73:58And I'd be interested to see
how our differing approaches -
73:58 - 74:01kind of, how we could marry
them together, -
74:01 - 74:05and at least delineate differences
between our perspectives on this. -
74:05 - 74:08so, I mean, yeah. Perhaps we'll leave
it here, -
74:08 - 74:12and hopefully in the near future,
the three of us can explore this again. -
74:12 - 74:14Because I do think we're starting
to, now, -
74:14 - 74:17get into some really
interesting territory. -
74:17 - 74:20But again, I'd like to thank both
of you guys -
74:20 - 74:22for joining me today. It was a
wonderful conversation. -
74:22 - 74:25(Pearse) And quickly, Sibel:
where can they find -
74:25 - 74:27The Lone Gladio? Where can
they find your work? -
74:27 - 74:32(Sibel) Sure. The Lone Gladio is
available via Amazon, -
74:32 - 74:35both print book and also
electronically through Kindle. -
74:35 - 74:39but people who don't want to
deal with Amazon, -
74:39 - 74:44they can purchase it directly from
the website TheLoneGladio.com -
74:44 - 74:46and they can have, even, signed copies.
-
74:46 - 74:51So those are the two top places,
and easiest places, -
74:51 - 74:55for people to obtain, purchase,
The Lone Gladio -
74:55 - 74:59But even if they just go to
TheLoneGladio.com website, -
74:59 - 75:01they will see the links from there
-
75:01 - 75:04to all the other channels where
they can get the book, -
75:04 - 75:05either electronically or in print.
-
75:05 - 75:07(Pearse) And Tom, I'm sure that almost
all my listeners -
75:07 - 75:09know where to find your work,
-
75:09 - 75:11but we've always got new people coming,
-
75:11 - 75:13so please, tell everybody about
your website, -
75:13 - 75:16your podcast, and your novel as well.
-
75:16 - 75:18Or -- excuse me! -- not a novel:
book. [laughs] -
75:18 - 75:23(Tom) Sure. I mean, my main website
is SpyCulture.com, -
75:23 - 75:28and on there you'll find links to my book
about 7/7, Secret Spies and 7/7. -
75:28 - 75:33I also do an about fortnightly podcast
called ClandesTime -
75:33 - 75:35that's available on Spy Culture
and on YouTube. -
75:35 - 75:37So anybody who hasn't already
checked that out, please do. -
75:37 - 75:42(Pearse) All right. well, thank you both,
again, for joining, -
75:42 - 75:43and I hope we can pick this up
again soon. -
75:43 - 75:45But thanks so much.
-
75:45 - 75:47(Sibel) Thank you. Sorry for dominating
the conversation. -
75:47 - 75:50So next time, I really want to hear
your perspectives on this. -
75:50 - 75:52As I said, with some of the answers,
-
75:52 - 75:55I have had only hypotheses
or some theories to offer, -
75:55 - 75:57not as concrete fact,
-
75:57 - 75:59so I would love to get your opinions
on that. -
75:59 - 76:00And also, thank you for the opportunity.
-
76:00 - 76:02it was great, thank you.
-
76:02 - 76:06(Tom) Thank you Pierce, and thank you
Sibel. it's been great talking to both of you. -
76:06 - 76:09(Pearse) OK, everybody.
-
76:09 - 76:12So, that about does it for this episode of Porkins Policy Radio.
-
76:12 - 76:15Thank you all for joining me and
listening to this podcast. -
76:15 - 76:17And if you enjoyed this and you'd
like to hear some more, -
76:17 - 76:21then please visit
PorkinsPolicyReview.wordpress.com -
76:21 - 76:24And there you can find all of the
podcasts free for download. -
76:24 - 76:27you can, of course, find them on
YouTube also, -
76:27 - 76:31and if you use YouTube, then please,
please subscribe to my YouTube channel, -
76:31 - 76:35which is YouTube.com/1138porkins
-
76:35 - 76:40And also definitely follow me on
Twitter @porkinspolicy, -
76:40 - 76:43and you can also follow the podcast
through the RSS feed, -
76:43 - 76:45and also through email blasts as well.
-
76:45 - 76:49And I just have a few quick programming
notes before I completely sign off. -
76:49 - 76:54Just want to thank everybody who listened
to the second episode -
76:54 - 76:56of me and Christoph Germann's
new podcast, -
76:56 - 76:58Porkins Great Game.
-
76:58 - 77:02We've gotten tremendous feedback
and lots of hits on that episode. -
77:02 - 77:07So I'm really grateful for everybody
that's been listening to it -
77:07 - 77:10and putting it up on social media,
and whatnot like that. -
77:10 - 77:12And it's been really great.
-
77:12 - 77:15And again, you can find that on the
main site, as well as on YouTube. -
77:15 - 77:18And I just want to say one other
quick thing. -
77:18 - 77:20And I know that I made a promise...
-
77:20 - 77:23I believe it was actually the last time
I spoke to Sibel -
77:23 - 77:28that I would have two episodes up
on Porkins Policy Radio. -
77:28 - 77:29One dealing with Scientology,
-
77:29 - 77:32and one dealing with Jim Jones
and The People's Temple. -
77:32 - 77:34Well, I just want to say that I have
not forgotten about that, -
77:34 - 77:38and I have been doing quite a bit
of research on Jim Jones. -
77:38 - 77:40And I think that'll probably be
the episode, -
77:40 - 77:43the next episode for
Porkins Policy Radio. -
77:43 - 77:48So definitely stay tuned, and look out
for that one on the horizon. -
77:48 - 77:53And again, we will be speaking with
both Sibel and Tom again very soon, -
77:53 - 77:56and expand on some of the issues that
we discussed, again, in this podcast. -
77:56 - 77:59So with that, I just want to
thank everybody. -
77:59 - 78:03And again, if you liked this podcast,
please tell a friend. -
78:03 - 78:06Email it to someone, put it up on
your social media, whatever: -
78:06 - 78:11just help spread the word, because... and
I just want to say, the fans have been... -
78:11 - 78:12the listeners are just fantastic.
-
78:12 - 78:15Everyone has been promoting the show,
-
78:15 - 78:17and it's really fantastic.
-
78:17 - 78:19And a quick shout-out to James Corbett,
-
78:19 - 78:23who included this podcast and me
and Christoph's podcast -
78:23 - 78:29as one of the podcasts that he listens
to in his Reddit AMA. -
78:29 - 78:31So that was very cool and very awesome,
-
78:31 - 78:33and thanks so much, James.
-
78:33 - 78:35So, I think we're there, we're gonna
leave it, -
78:35 - 78:36and I will be talking to you very soon.
-
78:36 - 78:55♪ [ Philip Glass – “Mishima/Closing”
(Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters) ] ♪ -
81:21 - 81:25[Subtitled by "Adjuvant"]
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