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♪ [ Philip Glass – “Runaway Horses”[br](<i>Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters</i>) ] ♪

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OK, everybody. Welcome back to[br]another episode of <i>Porkins Policy Radio.</i>

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As always, I am your host Pearse Redmond,

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and you can find this podcast [br]and all the other podcasts

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by going to porkinspolicyreview.wordpress.com

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Well, today we have a very special episode,

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and we have two very special guests.

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And we're going to be discussing <i>The Lone Gladio</i>,

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Sibel Edmond's new novel, in greater detail,

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As well as exploring some of the [br]intricacies

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of Gladio Plan B in general.

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And joining me for this epic[br]roundtable discussion on this

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is, of course, our good friend and [br]frequent guest on the show Tom Secker

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from SpyCulture.com and the [br]host of <i>ClandesTime</i>.

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And also joining us all the way [br]on the West Coast

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in what has become the newest state [br]to legalize marijuana

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is our wonderful, wonderful guest [br]who's been on the show recently

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and that is, of course, the creator [br]and founder of BoilingFrogsPost.com

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and the author of <i>The Lone Gladio</i>, [br]Sibel Edmonds

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So Sibel, Tom: Thank you for joining [br]me on the show today.

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(Tom) Hi, thank you.

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(Sibel) Good to be talking to you both.

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(Pearse) Yeah, absolutely. So, basically [br]me and Tom just wanted to ask you

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about a million more questions [br]that we didn't get to

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when we both interviewed you [br]for our respective shows

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So... and I guess... Tom, why don't you [br]start the conversation off?

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(Tom) Sure. Well, I only have...

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Well, I managed to whittle it down to two

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that I didn't get to ask you before,[br]Sibel.

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Because we were talking about,[br]essentially,

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how your book <i>The Lone Gladio</i>

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Subverts an awful lot of the [br]normal spy fiction.

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And that's because it's doing [br]something vastly different.

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It's, in many ways, an attack on [br]the security state.

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Rather than some kind of defense of it

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or glorification of it, which is[br]what you normally get.

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And we picked up on... sorry, [br]on various different things.

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And there were a couple that I [br]didn't get around to asking you about.

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So the first one is this question of [br]rogue agents.

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Because in the book, the protagonist, [br]the titular Lone Gladio, Greg,

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He goes rogue and wreaks this havoc

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against his former colleagues, [br]his former paymasters

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And normally in spy culture,

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the rogue agent is portrayed[br]as the bad apple, right?

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The exception to the normal [br]state of affairs.

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Sort of they're the bad people[br]within a good institution.

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That's the usual picture you get.

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Whereas in your book, in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>

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Greg is a... I hesitate to say [br]a <i>good</i> apple...

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[laughter] but he's somewhat good. [br]He does do good things.

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He does protect people[br]that need protecting

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and that deserve to be protected.

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Things like that.

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Some of his...

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some of the torture sequences, [br]one might debate. [laughter]

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[xx] how good these things are

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but nonetheless, he is a somewhat [br]good apple, if you like

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within the bad institution.

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So once again, this is a [br]complete inversion

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and reinvention of a stereotype [br]in spy stories.

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And yet you've said in other interviews

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that Greg is somewhat based on real people

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real black operatives that [br]you've met along the way

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and had conversations with

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and to some extent got to know what [br]kind of people they are.

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So my question -- and I hope this[br]isn't too cheeky --

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is how realistic is Greg?

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How realistic is it that one day,

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there might be a real Lone Gladio?

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(Sibel) Well, you may call it

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to some degree, a wishful thinking.

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Because we haven't had a real-life[br]Greg MacPherson

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Despite all the publicized, many of them totally scripted

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supposed CIA whistleblowers

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or people who have turned against [br]the CIA to a certain degree.

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We have never had a real Greg from[br]the Agency

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from the CIA

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And also, to answer your question,

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the first part of your question,

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my feeling and my knowledge,

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based on my knowledge, what I have seen,

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has been that many of these [br]mass-market books

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the spy thrillers involving the Agency,

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they are the ones that always[br]subvert the reality

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meaning, what really these people do

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and the culture of the agency

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who the agency actually serves,

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it's not the American people.

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And it's not even the United States [br]government.

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So it goes to the heart of the Deep State.

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Those people who benefit from [br]the Agency, from the CIA

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and whom the Agency really serves.

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So all the books that we see out there,

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the Hollywood-made movies,

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they subvert the facts, the reality

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of what the Agency is about.

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And because of this, all average Americans

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or even people in Europe,

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most people, they have

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a complete false notion of

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what the CIA is all about.

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Now, this is actually to a lesser degree

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or even, maybe, not even in any degree

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in countries that have been the targets

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of all these types of CIA, [br]the Agency's, operations.

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Because if you go and talk with people[br]in countries like Iran,

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the 1953 coup with Mossadeq[br]being taken out

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and Shah being placed in there.

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If you go to some of the Central [br]American, South American nations

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because they have, these countries

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-- in Middle East, in South and[br]Central America --

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since they have had first-hand[br]experience, real experience

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of what CIA actually does,

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they are not under this false notion.

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And you can engage in some[br]really heated conversation

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with people in these countries

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with notions that they put forward

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that are far more realistic, factual,

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than, let's say, when you talk with[br]people in the United States.

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So I would put it this way:

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I would say I subverted the [br]subverted notion

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of the Agency and the Agency people.

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And you're absolutely right about Greg.

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It's hard to call him a good person,

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or the good apple,

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but the book and the characters[br]in the book

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they go into the heart of what [br]the Agency is about

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what kind of people

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are selected to be operatives.

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And of course, the fictional aspect being

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all it takes is one or two real good [br]apples to actually,

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truly expose what the Agency's about

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and the operations, their objectives, [br]and who they serve.

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And we haven't had, to date,

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such a good apple.

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And it's really, really amazing.

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For me, it's really amazing.

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But then, on the other hand,

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it may go to this whole notion of

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the chicken or the egg.

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In this way: that... well, to start with,

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the poeple they select for these jobs

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the operatives -- I'm not talking about [br]the administrative people or analysts --

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to start with are the kind of people [br]who would never

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become those good apples that[br]they would step out

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and go all the way into exposing

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what the Agency is about.

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I mean, this fact applies to [br]a lesser degree

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to agencies like, more law enforcement,[br]the FBI

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even though I'm not saying that [br]they are good,

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but we have had whistleblowers, [br]or some good apples,

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that have really exposed some [br]major black deeds

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performed or implemented [br]by these agencies.

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But not really with the CIA.

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And some people may say,

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"Oh, here we have had this agents, [br]or that agents,"

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and if you look at these so-called, [br]supposed whistleblowers,

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you see how controlled [br]heir supposed exposure

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or exposing of the agency is.

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First of all, you get to see them

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within the mainstream media, frequently.

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Which tells you right there that they are

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not exposing the Agency.

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They would never get a chance

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to be before millions of audience [br]within the mainstream media

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putting forth some factual... [br]or some facts

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that expose the true nature of the Agency.

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They would never, ever be given [br]that kind of a chance.

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It doesn't happen.

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It has never happend.

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It really hasn't happened.

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You'll see some people who would [br]talk about how

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the Agency is, by doing this [br]particular thing,

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in this particular way...

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or people who are selling the notion [br]of, yes, there are a few bad apples

0:10:14.718,0:10:17.509
within the Agencies who are doing [br]this, within the management.

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But this is similar to what people call

0:10:21.852,0:10:24.122
the controlled opposition.

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It is tightly framed to further, still

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the Agency's legitimacy -- which is,[br]they are not legitimate.

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And then within that tight frame,

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put forth some very shallow criticism[br]of some agencies.

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And then, later on,

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if you see, it's usually blamed[br]on a President

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or a particular party

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rather than going to the Deep State

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whom the Agency is there [br]to protect and further their agenda,

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not some puppet President, or some party.

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Or... it boils down to some director [br]not being good, being the bad apple.

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I mean, these are all the false notions

0:11:08.499,0:11:11.641
that have been popularized [br]by the mainstream media.

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By all the books that subvert

0:11:13.238,0:11:15.971
what the Agency is about

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And alternative media as well,

0:11:19.100,0:11:20.446
the so-called "alternative"media.

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A lot of them, they parrot the [br]same notion,

0:11:23.275,0:11:27.511
-- maybe they put it forth in a [br]more heated manner --

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but in the end, they are actually

0:11:30.156,0:11:32.493
repeating the same storyline.

0:11:32.493,0:11:37.330
Within the storyline, some plots [br]are maybe targeted and criticized,

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but not the story itself.

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Well, I mean, you're absolutely [br]right there, I think.

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And when you were talking about[br]how this was...

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whenever you do get any kind [br]of significant revelation,

0:11:48.328,0:11:50.533
it's always wrapped up in a[br]"Oh, well, this was just"

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"the policy of this particular[br]White House"

0:11:52.703,0:11:56.236
"Or it was because there was [br]a bad director of the CIA at that point"

0:11:56.236,0:11:57.993
"or..." there's never any kind of sense

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of this being a fundamental, [br]institutional problem

0:12:01.545,0:12:04.263
at... a fundamental problem [br]in the character

0:12:04.263,0:12:07.342
of the CIA and other similar institutions.

0:12:07.342,0:12:12.123
And I was thinking, they've even tried[br]this with the original Gladio.

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That, this was always the way it was[br][xx] out there

0:12:15.916,0:12:18.572
by anyone who was insincere.

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Was that, "Oh, this was just some [br]stay-behind thing."

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"It was Cold War paranoia. [br]Nothing really came of it."

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And they ignore that second phase

0:12:26.585,0:12:28.001
of the original Gladio

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where it became this very aggressive means

0:12:29.908,0:12:31.528
of carrying out false-flag terrorism.

0:12:31.528,0:12:35.077
And they sort of pretend like

0:12:35.077,0:12:36.602
that never actually happened.

0:12:36.602,0:12:37.727
They say, oh, this was some...

0:12:37.727,0:12:40.723
oh, we were all worried about [br]Stalin or whatever.

0:12:40.723,0:12:44.271
It's just written off in that way, [br]the original Gladio.

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(Tom) Yeah, sure.

0:12:45.245,0:12:47.154
So, I mean, that's one of the things,[br]I suppose,

0:12:47.154,0:12:48.548
that I loved about <i>The Lone Gladio</i>

0:12:48.548,0:12:52.455
is that, not only are you kind of throwing[br]all of that bullshit out the window,

0:12:52.455,0:12:56.712
you're actually talking about [br]more or less the present day.

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I mean, it's set about ten years ago, OK,

0:12:59.041,0:13:01.700
but it's the modern era. [br]It's the War on Terror era.

0:13:01.700,0:13:02.888
(Sibel) Absolutely.

0:13:02.888,0:13:05.362
(Tom) So you're cutting right to the heart

0:13:05.362,0:13:07.561
of the modern-day reality

0:13:07.561,0:13:11.456
and my other question is kind of [br]related to that.

0:13:11.456,0:13:13.470
And I'm not in any way trying to get you

0:13:13.470,0:13:14.859
to contradict yourself here.

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But we do also have the question[br]of blowback.

0:13:17.314,0:13:19.298
Because in some ways, that's what Greg

0:13:19.298,0:13:22.830
and his crusade of violence represents.

0:13:22.830,0:13:24.650
He is, to some extent,

0:13:24.650,0:13:26.062
the unintended consequence

0:13:26.062,0:13:27.508
of these black operations

0:13:27.508,0:13:30.375
Both in terms of his motivation

0:13:30.375,0:13:33.871
-- his wife is killed, essentially, [br]accidentally, or at least carelessly:

0:13:33.871,0:13:35.466
they weren't <i>trying</i> to kill her --

0:13:35.466,0:13:36.741
And yet that's his...

0:13:36.741,0:13:39.452
that's at least the point at which [br]he then decides

0:13:39.452,0:13:41.955
it's time to wreak havoc against them.

0:13:41.955,0:13:46.262
I know your opinion of blowback [br]is roughly the same as mine,

0:13:46.262,0:13:47.968
that, again, it's one of these things[br]that's hung out there

0:13:47.968,0:13:50.888
to cover up something that would [br]otherwise be quite damaging.

0:13:50.888,0:13:54.912
Sometimes black operations do go bad.

0:13:54.912,0:13:56.864
And unintended things happen

0:13:56.864,0:14:00.914
but in general terms, blowback is [br]just one of those covers.

0:14:00.914,0:14:02.265
It's a smokescreen.

0:14:02.265,0:14:04.580
It's..."the <i>mujahideen</i> in Afghanistan"

0:14:04.580,0:14:07.309
"evolved into al-Qaeda completely [br]by accident." [laughter]

0:14:07.309,0:14:10.783
We've sort of accidentally [br]let this happen.

0:14:10.783,0:14:12.572
We took our eye off the ball, [br]blah-blah-blah.

0:14:12.572,0:14:15.149
It's totally untrue.

0:14:15.149,0:14:16.942
Of course, we know it's totally untrue.

0:14:16.942,0:14:19.626
And so I found it quite fascinating,[br]that...

0:14:19.626,0:14:22.723
knowing that your opinion [br]of blowback is quite similar to mine

0:14:22.723,0:14:23.918
if not the same as mine

0:14:23.918,0:14:29.005
that this same basic idea forms

0:14:29.005,0:14:30.550
such a central part of the story

0:14:30.550,0:14:32.139
in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>.

0:14:32.139,0:14:37.615
I mean, it's not a sort of explanation[br]that you take all that seriously

0:14:37.615,0:14:39.112
for real events, is it?

0:14:39.112,0:14:42.815
But there, again, I suppose you're[br]being quite subversive.

0:14:42.815,0:14:47.409
Because instead of using blowback as a[br]way of covering up for black operations,

0:14:47.409,0:14:52.140
this story of Greg's retribution [br]against the Company

0:14:52.140,0:14:56.252
is actually his sort of means of [br]exposing them.

0:14:56.252,0:14:59.924
That's, I suppose, what... the overall [br]point of this book was

0:14:59.924,0:15:01.588
was to try and expose the reality

0:15:01.588,0:15:02.799
and in doing so, that meant you simply

0:15:02.799,0:15:06.114
had to subvert the usual way in which [br]these things worked

0:15:06.114,0:15:09.320
and therefore had to subvert [br]even the concept of blowback.

0:15:09.320,0:15:17.022
I suppose... OK, my question: is this [br]something that you did consciously,

0:15:17.022,0:15:22.215
or am I letting the literary analyst [br]inside me get a bit carried away here?

0:15:22.215,0:15:26.795
(Sibel) Um, no. Absolutely, absolutely. [br]First of all, you're absolutely right:

0:15:26.795,0:15:30.248
it is based on the notion of blowback

0:15:30.248,0:15:33.358
and in this case, it's a <i>real</i> blowback.

0:15:33.358,0:15:36.203
And that is: unintended consequences.

0:15:36.203,0:15:41.579
Because, as we know, Greg's woman

0:15:41.579,0:15:45.418
was killed purely accidentally.

0:15:45.418,0:15:49.787
So that was not designed by the powers

0:15:49.787,0:15:54.467
to get this reaction and this outcome

0:15:54.467,0:15:58.800
that is brought forth by Greg.[br]Because he starts the mission.

0:15:58.800,0:16:01.165
And there are two things that [br]are happening.

0:16:01.165,0:16:03.730
There are two things that are [br]motivating Greg.

0:16:03.730,0:16:08.388
One, of course, we are talking [br]about this Great Terror Event in 2001.

0:16:08.388,0:16:10.571
In the US.

0:16:10.571,0:16:16.920
And he was outside that highly-[br]compartmentalized operation

0:16:16.920,0:16:22.328
to execute this, this false-flag operation[br]in the home front

0:16:22.328,0:16:25.073
in the United States, on the US soil.

0:16:25.073,0:16:30.276
And he realizes this as it happens,[br]and it's reported

0:16:30.276,0:16:33.160
by the tentacles of the Gladios.

0:16:33.160,0:16:41.667
This is the <i>CNN</i> and <i>BBC</i>, or <i>BCB</i>, [br]as they are listed there

0:16:41.667,0:16:43.304
it may be a little bit cheesy [laughter]

0:16:43.304,0:16:44.337
But... so...

0:16:44.337,0:16:51.389
That is when it makes Greg stop and think

0:16:51.389,0:16:54.920
and the blowback doesn't begin here

0:16:54.920,0:16:59.115
but the roots, or the seeds, are [br]planted there.

0:16:59.115,0:17:04.137
Because he is, himself, a highly unusual,

0:17:04.137,0:17:05.766
eccentric character

0:17:05.766,0:17:10.914
with some dark, to a certain degree [br]sad background

0:17:10.914,0:17:12.847
that I don't get into in this book.

0:17:12.847,0:17:18.135
It will, hopefully, once I write and if I [br]write the second book

0:17:18.135,0:17:21.585
will get more into Greg's childhood

0:17:21.585,0:17:27.870
and what started his intense hatred [br]of Russians and everything Russian.

0:17:27.870,0:17:31.011
And that's one of the repeating[br]themes there.

0:17:31.011,0:17:33.347
And that has been one of the driving force

0:17:33.347,0:17:35.537
for a lot of things that he has [br]done in life.

0:17:35.537,0:17:40.802
But in all this, this... for this[br]operation, false-flag

0:17:40.802,0:17:44.651
taking place in the US, that begins[br]the process.

0:17:44.651,0:17:49.311
It plants the seed, and then the [br]catalyst, of course,

0:17:49.311,0:17:53.272
two years later, becomes his[br]woman accidentally

0:17:53.272,0:17:56.695
taken out by the Agency

0:17:56.695,0:17:59.927
So that basically triggers[br]all these actions.

0:17:59.927,0:18:01.784
And again, that was unintended.

0:18:01.784,0:18:05.178
So that's a true blowback right there.

0:18:05.178,0:18:09.488
And you used the word "intended," [br]and that is very, very important.

0:18:09.488,0:18:11.531
It's the key word, because

0:18:11.531,0:18:15.347
for a blowback to be really a blowback,

0:18:15.347,0:18:18.640
the consequences have to be unintended.

0:18:18.640,0:18:22.978
And with these operations themselves,

0:18:22.978,0:18:25.377
the black ops, the false-flag operations,

0:18:25.377,0:18:30.519
the recruitment and the training [br]of these terrorists,

0:18:30.519,0:18:35.059
in this case we had a black widow [br]who's a Chechen,

0:18:35.059,0:18:40.377
who's Chechen, in Azerbaijan

0:18:40.377,0:18:45.804
and those operations are the[br]false-flag operations

0:18:45.804,0:18:49.018
with <i>intended</i> consequences.

0:18:49.018,0:18:51.803
With <i>intended consequences</i>

0:18:51.803,0:18:55.938
therefore, anything that results [br]from those operations

0:18:55.938,0:18:59.349
cannot in any way be considered blowback.

0:18:59.349,0:19:02.534
Because when you look at, let's say

0:19:02.534,0:19:04.842
a certain group being put in place,

0:19:04.842,0:19:08.356
trained, armed, directed, managed,

0:19:08.356,0:19:11.754
to execute a certain terror operation,

0:19:11.754,0:19:15.116
whether it's in Russia or if it's[br]in Syria,

0:19:15.116,0:19:16.645
and if it's in Iraq,

0:19:16.645,0:19:19.236
executing that terror operation

0:19:19.236,0:19:24.398
is only a part of the intended results,

0:19:24.398,0:19:29.016
the objectives, the means to get[br]to the objectives.

0:19:29.016,0:19:33.498
It's not all of consequences [br]taking place afterwards:

0:19:33.498,0:19:37.034
those are the intended consequences.

0:19:37.034,0:19:39.302
So, let me give you an example.

0:19:39.302,0:19:43.943
For example, let's say when you[br]train the Chechens,

0:19:43.943,0:19:45.384
a group of Chechens,

0:19:45.384,0:19:47.391
and arm them, and drug them,

0:19:47.391,0:19:51.223
and indoctrinate them, and manage them,

0:19:51.223,0:19:55.062
and say, "You're gonna go and blow [br]up this in this part of Russia,"

0:19:55.062,0:19:55.961
for example.

0:19:55.961,0:20:01.134
Well, the first result of it is, OK, [br]this horrible terror incident happens

0:20:01.134,0:20:02.658
in that particular city

0:20:02.658,0:20:05.807
or targeting this particular school, [br]et cetera.

0:20:05.807,0:20:11.161
Now, what happens next is what [br]is the intended consequence.

0:20:11.161,0:20:14.604
And that is to get Russia to react to it,

0:20:14.604,0:20:17.339
and to react to it, hopefully, [br]dramatically.

0:20:17.339,0:20:23.099
Emotionally, and start rounding up[br]hundreds of Chechens,

0:20:23.099,0:20:28.278
putting them in jail, or actually going [br]and shooting 150 Chechens, right?

0:20:28.278,0:20:32.465
And that, in return, turning around [br]and causing this...

0:20:32.465,0:20:33.952
more attacks over there.

0:20:33.952,0:20:37.950
Then, you start getting closer and closer

0:20:37.950,0:20:39.865
to the intended consequences.

0:20:39.865,0:20:42.511
The intended consequence in executing

0:20:42.511,0:20:45.308
this particular terror operation,[br]this part of it

0:20:45.308,0:20:46.673
where something is blown up

0:20:46.673,0:20:48.649
and you have 100 people dying,

0:20:48.649,0:20:50.454
is not the first intent,

0:20:50.454,0:20:52.671
the most important objective here.

0:20:52.671,0:20:58.579
That is a way to get the following [br]five or six consequent events,

0:20:58.579,0:21:00.238
which are intended,

0:21:00.238,0:21:02.982
to cause that chaos,

0:21:02.982,0:21:07.169
to cause that certain sect going [br]after another sect

0:21:07.169,0:21:11.698
to cause for that to actually become[br]even more,

0:21:11.698,0:21:13.652
explode even further

0:21:13.652,0:21:16.382
and affect a neighboring country.

0:21:16.382,0:21:18.928
Let's say, if it's in Syria, something[br]is happening

0:21:18.928,0:21:20.937
with Jordan, and then

0:21:20.937,0:21:22.304
this happens in the border,

0:21:22.304,0:21:24.909
and you have, let's say, maybe half [br]a million refugees

0:21:24.909,0:21:25.978
getting to this country.

0:21:25.978,0:21:27.828
Those in the media,

0:21:27.828,0:21:32.375
and then these so-called CIA analysts [br]they are talking about,

0:21:32.375,0:21:37.206
they are always represented [br]and presented to the viewers

0:21:37.206,0:21:39.613
as the unintended consequences.

0:21:39.613,0:21:40.804
I mean, they don't even say, "

0:21:40.804,0:21:42.915
"OK, we did help blow this thing up."

0:21:42.915,0:21:44.847
But let's say they armed it,[br]and we didn't know.

0:21:44.847,0:21:46.812
The usual storyline.

0:21:46.812,0:21:49.574
"And look, all these things happen, [br]and they're horrifying"

0:21:49.574,0:21:52.796
while all along the intended consequences

0:21:52.796,0:21:57.377
are events that take place long after, [br]let's say,

0:21:57.377,0:21:59.054
a building being blown up

0:21:59.054,0:22:00.834
or 50 people getting killed.

0:22:00.834,0:22:03.335
And that's what we are talking about.

0:22:03.335,0:22:08.012
And in no way those can be considered[br]as blowback

0:22:08.012,0:22:10.144
because they are absolutely intended.

0:22:10.144,0:22:13.759
Because when that chaos is taking place,

0:22:13.759,0:22:16.477
then the next things comes as [br]a result of that,

0:22:16.477,0:22:19.420
and then these other two countries [br]get involved,

0:22:19.420,0:22:23.264
and as a result of that, let's say,[br]another country which says,

0:22:23.264,0:22:26.108
"You know what? Now we are really going [br]to, let's say,"

0:22:26.108,0:22:29.333
"put our candidacy to become a member[br]of NATO."

0:22:29.333,0:22:32.000
And as a result of that, this and this [br]happens.

0:22:32.000,0:22:33.519
It's like a chess board.

0:22:33.519,0:22:38.594
And you want to look at the move [br]that's gonna come

0:22:38.594,0:22:40.655
eight moves after the first move

0:22:40.655,0:22:45.615
in order to go and execute, or achieve [br]what you want to achieve.

0:22:45.615,0:22:48.312
Not the first, initial things that [br]take place

0:22:48.312,0:22:50.169
with the first or the second move.

0:22:50.169,0:22:53.390
And for those to be considered blowback,

0:22:53.390,0:22:55.073
is the fiction that, unfortunately,

0:22:55.073,0:22:58.358
almost everyone -- except for you guys

0:22:58.358,0:23:03.660
and a handful of other who I call [br]the Irate Minority

0:23:03.660,0:23:06.521
real informed people, people don't know.

0:23:06.521,0:23:10.192
And I always try to give these[br]examples and say,

0:23:10.192,0:23:14.197
if a certain action, modus operandi

0:23:14.197,0:23:17.053
results in unintended consequences...

0:23:17.053,0:23:23.111
Let's say this was talked about[br]a lot after 9/11, saying...

0:23:23.111,0:23:26.153
"Oh, well, we supported the[br]<i>mujahideens</i> in Afghanistan."

0:23:26.153,0:23:30.888
"In early '80s, late '70s. We armed them, [br]we trained them."

0:23:30.888,0:23:33.975
"Including Osama Bin Laden; [br]including Zawahiri."

0:23:33.975,0:23:37.090
And then those people turned around

0:23:37.090,0:23:39.354
and started doing these kinds of things.

0:23:39.354,0:23:40.971
And those were unintended.

0:23:40.971,0:23:42.696
So let's say what they say

0:23:42.696,0:23:45.623
-- this is the Deep State; this is[br]the mainstream media;

0:23:45.623,0:23:48.127
this is the so-called CIA analyst,

0:23:48.127,0:23:53.272
these are the so-called CIA dissenters [br]such as people like Mike Scheuer --

0:23:53.272,0:23:58.993
anonymously writing the [br]blowback-related stories, fiction,

0:23:58.993,0:24:00.885
being marketed as non-fiction,

0:24:00.885,0:24:03.395
let's say if they were true, OK?

0:24:03.395,0:24:06.020
Well, think about it: any person,

0:24:06.020,0:24:11.477
any sane person, average normal [br]person, would say,

0:24:11.477,0:24:14.999
"I did this, and these things came [br]out of it -- unintended things."

0:24:14.999,0:24:20.597
So, you learn a lesson: you don't go[br]and repeat it ten times again

0:24:20.597,0:24:23.958
after seeing these supposed[br]unintended consequences.

0:24:23.958,0:24:27.431
But on the other hand, if you look [br]at the reality

0:24:27.431,0:24:31.051
and say, OK, for the past 30 or 40 years,

0:24:31.051,0:24:36.018
how we repeat exactly the same script,[br]the same scenario,

0:24:36.018,0:24:37.887
the same operations,

0:24:37.887,0:24:41.998
and getting the similar kind of blowback,

0:24:41.998,0:24:44.885
the reactions, eight steps later,

0:24:44.885,0:24:47.861
then you have to stop and say,[br]

0:24:47.861,0:24:50.645
"Well, really, is that unintended?"

0:24:50.645,0:24:52.607
Because as the saying goes,

0:24:52.607,0:24:54.123
"Fool me once, shame on you."

0:24:54.123,0:24:56.028
"Fool me twice, shame on me."

0:24:56.028,0:24:58.155
I mean, you can't keep doing [br]the same thing.

0:24:58.155,0:25:01.126
You do that with <i>mujahideen</i>: [br]"Oops! Blowback!"

0:25:01.126,0:25:03.440
Then you go and you get these cells

0:25:03.440,0:25:05.687
you take then to Turkey from Syria

0:25:05.687,0:25:07.642
-- These cells from Syria --

0:25:07.642,0:25:09.081
You train them, you arm them,

0:25:09.081,0:25:11.622
you put them there, back into Syria.

0:25:11.622,0:25:13.930
You do the same thing with another cell:

0:25:13.930,0:25:16.470
take them to Jordan, train and arm them,[br]put there,

0:25:16.470,0:25:18.739
knowing that, OK, they have...

0:25:18.739,0:25:22.790
or selecting, intentionally, extremists.

0:25:22.790,0:25:25.056
And then events take place, and say,

0:25:25.056,0:25:27.776
"Oops! That was unintended."

0:25:27.776,0:25:31.961
"Because our intention was getting [br]this, really, just like <i>mujahideen</i>"

0:25:31.961,0:25:35.953
And all the other groups that [br]we have used,

0:25:35.953,0:25:38.352
we consider them the freedom fighters.

0:25:38.352,0:25:44.948
For how long the United States [br]media glorified the <i>mujahideen</i>

0:25:44.948,0:25:51.083
That includes Osama bin Laden as [br]their commando, Zawahiri, in the '80s.

0:25:51.083,0:25:55.594
If you go and get the archives[br]-- the newspaper articles, OK? --

0:25:55.594,0:25:58.582
all the clips from <i>NPR</i>, from <i>CNN</i>,

0:25:58.582,0:26:01.723
what you see is, they were glorified. [br]

0:26:01.723,0:26:05.563
Nobody even put anything like [br]"Islamists" or "extremists"

0:26:05.563,0:26:09.275
or any of those adjectives in[br]association with these people.

0:26:09.275,0:26:10.999
They were the great freedom fighters. [br]

0:26:10.999,0:26:15.418
They made Americans, all of them, [br]cheer for <i>mujahideen</i>.

0:26:15.418,0:26:19.975
The fact that they had... they were [br]stoning women, or doing...

0:26:19.975,0:26:22.949
which they did, during those [br]years as well.

0:26:22.949,0:26:26.301
They were never exposed,[br]because those were irrelevant.

0:26:26.301,0:26:29.425
They were the glorified freedom fighters.

0:26:29.425,0:26:31.479
Liberation armies, right?

0:26:31.479,0:26:33.752
And then, lo and behold:

0:26:33.752,0:26:39.109
one day they all turned to these awful, [br]ferocious terrorists and al-Qaeda.

0:26:39.109,0:26:43.179
And their commandos became [br]the top terrorists in the world,

0:26:43.179,0:26:47.754
with these extreme belief [br]system and religious...

0:26:47.754,0:26:52.430
all those things happen: "Oops!" [br]Those were like, "Ooh, we were caught"

0:26:52.430,0:26:56.786
"and we were shocked; [br]and we were so surprised"

0:26:56.786,0:26:57.802
-- supposedly.

0:26:57.802,0:26:59.918
Again, we are doing the same thing.

0:26:59.918,0:27:01.260
We have been doing the same things.

0:27:01.260,0:27:04.423
Take these people, arm them,[br]train them, manage them.

0:27:04.423,0:27:06.878
And then later come and say, "Oops!"

0:27:06.878,0:27:08.514
"Look at what these people are doing."

0:27:08.514,0:27:09.919
"They are extremists. We did not..."

0:27:09.919,0:27:13.534
"We did not account for these [br]kinds of reaction,"

0:27:13.534,0:27:15.689
"and these kinds of practices [br]by these people."

0:27:15.689,0:27:19.932
So therefore, in no way these operations

0:27:19.932,0:27:22.102
and the consequences of the operations,

0:27:22.102,0:27:25.032
can be considered blowback.

0:27:25.032,0:27:29.111
And then, the lastly, the most[br]important thing to look at is:

0:27:29.111,0:27:33.613
Who benefits? Who benefits[br]from these operations?

0:27:33.613,0:27:35.815
And the intended consequences.

0:27:35.815,0:27:39.701
Well, whoever is the puppet President

0:27:39.701,0:27:42.426
--whether it's Obama or Reagan --

0:27:42.426,0:27:45.532
they don't really, personally benefit [br]from these.

0:27:45.532,0:27:46.654
It's not about the President.

0:27:46.654,0:27:51.035
it's not about a political party, [br]or the Republican Party:

0:27:51.035,0:27:53.138
because of that, they got rich [br]or they became powerful.

0:27:53.138,0:27:56.840
No. So that... those are not the[br]beneficiaries.

0:27:56.840,0:27:58.591
So the people on the ground,

0:27:58.591,0:28:03.015
people in Syria, or people in Afghanistan,

0:28:03.015,0:28:03.900
they're not the beneficiaries.

0:28:03.900,0:28:05.314
their homes have been wrecked,

0:28:05.314,0:28:08.584
and they have lost tens of thousands [br]of people.

0:28:08.584,0:28:11.473
The American people haven't been [br]better off.

0:28:11.473,0:28:15.456
And either financially or security-wise.

0:28:15.456,0:28:18.163
So take the American people's[br]interests out of the equation.

0:28:18.163,0:28:19.980
Then you look at the map,

0:28:19.980,0:28:21.846
you look at the situation, and say,

0:28:21.846,0:28:25.203
who has become richer and more powerful,

0:28:25.203,0:28:29.249
as a result of this.

0:28:29.249,0:28:33.382
And what you see is, "Oh, look at this."

0:28:33.382,0:28:38.467
Without these wars, the sales and[br]the stock prices

0:28:38.467,0:28:40.561
for the military-industrial complex

0:28:40.561,0:28:41.985
would just plunge. I mean,

0:28:41.985,0:28:44.972
think about a scenario where we[br]don't have these wars.

0:28:44.972,0:28:47.026
We are not engaged in Syria [br]and Afghanistan,

0:28:47.026,0:28:49.361
and with the drones in Pakistan and Yemen.

0:28:49.361,0:28:52.775
Who are they gonna sell it to, [br]these drones and bombs?

0:28:52.775,0:28:55.654
And then, when you look at NATO,

0:28:55.654,0:28:58.917
and you look at the militaristic [br]expansion,

0:28:58.917,0:29:01.885
and, let's say, with 9/11,

0:29:01.885,0:29:05.779
before 9/11, how many bases did [br]we have in the region?

0:29:05.779,0:29:11.417
Whether it's in Eastern Europe, or [br]you're looking at nations like Azerbaijan,

0:29:11.417,0:29:15.557
I know they shut it down, but Manas[br]Airbase in Kyrgyzstan:

0:29:15.557,0:29:17.146
look at how close they are to Russia.

0:29:17.146,0:29:19.787
Now, what made these possible

0:29:19.787,0:29:23.205
was the event that took place here,

0:29:23.205,0:29:26.465
the operation that took place here [br]in the United States, 9/11

0:29:26.465,0:29:31.749
that gave us that legitimacy [br]-- even though it's not legitimate --

0:29:31.749,0:29:34.596
to say, "OK, we don't have the Cold War,"

0:29:34.596,0:29:35.893
"We don't have Russia,"

0:29:35.893,0:29:39.337
"but we need to expand our bases [br]and take over these countries."

0:29:39.337,0:29:41.625
Again, those countries, with our[br]military bases

0:29:41.625,0:29:45.375
in order to protect ourselves again[br]a new enemy

0:29:45.375,0:29:47.880
the enemy that we create, put in place,[br]and manage.

0:29:47.880,0:29:51.447
So therefore, that's when [br]you're looking at

0:29:51.447,0:29:53.538
the intended consequences

0:29:53.538,0:29:55.221
War, and who benefits from that.

0:29:55.221,0:30:00.444
How many military bases Russia [br]has put in place,

0:30:00.444,0:30:02.036
created, put in place,

0:30:02.036,0:30:03.936
since the Cold War ended?

0:30:03.936,0:30:08.418
How many military bases China [br]has put in place, created

0:30:08.418,0:30:09.996
and expanded and...

0:30:09.996,0:30:11.246
you don't see these.

0:30:11.246,0:30:13.178
But take a look at the United States,

0:30:13.178,0:30:20.665
and then start putting it with the [br]cover, legitimacy that they have done.

0:30:20.665,0:30:23.573
It's always in the name of a great enemy

0:30:23.573,0:30:25.605
that we have militaristically

0:30:25.605,0:30:28.604
put these bases in these countries,

0:30:28.604,0:30:31.001
taken over these countries [br]and their regimes,

0:30:31.001,0:30:32.370
or installing their regimes.

0:30:32.370,0:30:35.300
Therefore, without these operations,

0:30:35.300,0:30:37.703
without these wars, without [br]these consequences,

0:30:37.703,0:30:38.770
we couldn't.

0:30:38.770,0:30:42.348
So this is how you, or anyone, could start

0:30:42.348,0:30:45.085
putting the two and two together, and say,

0:30:45.085,0:30:50.115
my father always taught me this,[br]when I was six, seven, eight years old.

0:30:50.115,0:30:52.215
He said, "Whenever you look at any wars,"

0:30:52.215,0:30:55.188
"really look and see [br]who benefits from it."

0:30:55.188,0:30:57.401
And it's never the case of people.

0:30:57.401,0:31:01.361
It's not ever the case of those,[br]let's say, American soldiers

0:31:01.361,0:31:03.571
who are losing their lives doing these

0:31:03.571,0:31:05.473
atrocious things overseas.

0:31:05.473,0:31:07.081
Then who benefits/

0:31:07.081,0:31:09.022
And once you get that answer

0:31:09.022,0:31:11.302
and start to pinpoint the beneficiaries,

0:31:11.302,0:31:15.875
that's when you can in-depth, [br]truly understand

0:31:15.875,0:31:21.290
what these wars, or these terror [br]incidents, or these conflicts are about.

0:31:21.290,0:31:23.762
That was a long answer. [laughter]

0:31:23.762,0:31:28.874
(Tom) Well, yeah. And I suppose I'll [br]just hand you over to Pearse here.

0:31:28.874,0:31:31.990
Because I could pick up on a dozen[br]things that you just said.

0:31:31.990,0:31:36.754
Pearse, I know you wanted to kind of [br]carry on on this topic of...

0:31:36.754,0:31:37.667
(Pearse) Yeah.

0:31:37.667,0:31:38.550
(Tom) Not necessarily blowback, but,

0:31:38.550,0:31:40.967
consequences of where this [br]thing's going.

0:31:40.967,0:31:43.803
(Pearse) Well, yeah, I guess with[br]everything that you've just been saying, Sibel,

0:31:43.803,0:31:48.370
and taking <i>The Lone Gladio</i>[br]as kind of a road map for how this works

0:31:48.370,0:31:50.950
-- and again, it takes place around 2003,

0:31:50.950,0:31:53.394
so we can see how this is [br]starting to form --

0:31:53.394,0:31:56.328
but it seems that right now we're [br]sort of starting

0:31:56.328,0:31:59.053
to reach a new level, perhaps

0:31:59.053,0:32:00.867
within the Gladio operation.

0:32:00.867,0:32:04.203
And I guess my big question is,

0:32:04.203,0:32:07.170
what is the end-game scenario [br]for Gladio B?

0:32:07.170,0:32:09.000
Or, even if there is one?

0:32:09.000,0:32:10.044
Because at some point

0:32:10.044,0:32:12.859
-- it's already happening to a [br]slight degree

0:32:12.859,0:32:14.914
in places like Azerbaijan or Kyrgyzstan --

0:32:14.914,0:32:18.604
we're seeing a lot of these mercenaries [br]trained by NATO returning.

0:32:18.604,0:32:22.375
Now, if one of the major goals of Gladio B

0:32:22.375,0:32:25.686
is the exploitation of natural resources,

0:32:25.686,0:32:26.819
like oil and gas,

0:32:26.819,0:32:28.819
and about encircling Russia,

0:32:28.819,0:32:31.931
how are... at what point does this [br]become untenable

0:32:31.931,0:32:36.745
if you've got these jihadis running [br]all over the place?

0:32:36.745,0:32:39.237
And kind of fleshing that out[br]a little bit,

0:32:39.237,0:32:42.627
a lot of <i>The Lone Gladio</i> revolves [br]around Turkey.

0:32:42.627,0:32:45.974
And I was recently talking with [br]Christoph Germann on our new show,

0:32:45.974,0:32:49.167
and he was mentioning that more[br]and more analysts

0:32:49.167,0:32:51.870
are starting to come around to the idea

0:32:51.870,0:32:55.100
that Turkey is entering this[br]Pakistan-ization

0:32:55.100,0:32:59.352
where it's being broken up into [br]these little areas

0:32:59.352,0:33:02.452
like Gaziantep or Hatay, which [br]are right on the border

0:33:02.452,0:33:05.991
or Suruç, where Serena Shim [br]was recently murdered

0:33:05.991,0:33:08.922
and they're starting to resemble[br]more and more

0:33:08.922,0:33:11.342
places like Peshawar in the [br]1980s and 1990s.

0:33:11.342,0:33:14.559
And again, the relationship between MIT,

0:33:14.559,0:33:16.371
the Turkish intelligence and ISIS

0:33:16.371,0:33:18.999
is somewhat similar to the ISI [br]and the Taliban.

0:33:18.999,0:33:25.325
So I guess, is that really the direction[br]that NATO and the CIA and MI6,

0:33:25.325,0:33:29.169
-- the Deep State network -- [br]want to go in?

0:33:29.169,0:33:31.006
Because it seems as if they're playing

0:33:31.006,0:33:32.590
a very dangerous game here.

0:33:32.590,0:33:37.758
And if Turkey really did become...[br]like, a Pakistan-type scenario,

0:33:37.758,0:33:41.871
is that really an intended [br]consequence of this?

0:33:41.871,0:33:43.755
I know, I don't want to keep[br]bringing back...

0:33:43.755,0:33:45.827
(Sibel) No, absolutely. Absolutely, it is.

0:33:45.827,0:33:51.330
Because you have to look at the last, [br]let's say, 8-10 years

0:33:51.330,0:33:53.276
of what's been happening with Turkey.

0:33:53.276,0:33:56.302
Having countries...

0:33:56.302,0:34:00.792
-- especially the countries that we[br]control, our allies:

0:34:00.792,0:34:03.553
in this case, you just said Pakistan: [br]very similar. --

0:34:03.553,0:34:08.296
having countries weak and not unified,

0:34:08.296,0:34:10.990
with lots of internal chaos...

0:34:10.990,0:34:12.050
let's say in Turkey,

0:34:12.050,0:34:16.388
a Turkey that has a lot of things [br]going on with the Kurdish sects.

0:34:16.388,0:34:20.321
The Kurds executing some [br]terror operations,

0:34:20.321,0:34:23.956
the atrocity of Turkish militaries [br]against the Kurds,

0:34:23.956,0:34:28.095
all the internal chaos created[br]by that division

0:34:28.095,0:34:32.382
between the Kurdish sects[br]and the rest of Turkey.

0:34:32.382,0:34:34.246
Then, to have other pockets.

0:34:34.246,0:34:40.645
Division along the extremist religious [br]people there,

0:34:40.645,0:34:42.413
versus the secular.

0:34:42.413,0:34:47.343
That's what we have always intended[br]and we wanted...

0:34:47.343,0:34:49.314
-- and we <i>want:</i>[br]this continues --

0:34:49.314,0:34:51.829
for countries that are allies.

0:34:51.829,0:34:54.170
A strong, unified nation,

0:34:54.170,0:34:56.381
especially for Middle East,

0:34:56.381,0:35:01.069
for a strategically, geographically [br]strategic nation,

0:35:01.069,0:35:02.653
is something that we never want.

0:35:02.653,0:35:04.420
We never want it.

0:35:04.420,0:35:09.351
We want Iraq that is divided between[br]Shia and Sunnis and Kurds.

0:35:09.351,0:35:11.388
Because that makes Iraq much weaker,

0:35:11.388,0:35:15.868
therefore much more susceptible[br]to be a puppet nation.

0:35:15.868,0:35:17.361
To take over, to take over their oil.

0:35:17.361,0:35:19.362
Same thing with Pakistan.

0:35:19.362,0:35:20.616
Same thing with Turkey.

0:35:20.616,0:35:22.368
Now, what has been scaring...

0:35:22.368,0:35:24.405
because there has been so much

0:35:24.405,0:35:29.036
going on with the mainstream[br]media reporting on Turkey

0:35:29.036,0:35:31.820
in the past five, six years here[br]in the United States,

0:35:31.820,0:35:36.769
is a government that they don't like,

0:35:36.769,0:35:40.239
and a country that has started [br]becoming economically strong.

0:35:40.239,0:35:42.604
If you look at what has been happening,

0:35:42.604,0:35:48.728
or what really happened with [br]Europe in 2008, 2009 and 2010,

0:35:48.728,0:35:50.110
and turn around and look at what has...

0:35:50.110,0:35:52.398
-- economically, I'm talking about --

0:35:52.498,0:35:55.019
what has been happening during[br]the same years,

0:35:55.104,0:35:56.585
those same years, in Turkey,

0:35:56.585,0:36:00.938
you see Turkey was one of the [br]only nations there in the region

0:36:00.938,0:36:04.832
that with economy that actually[br]got stronger and better

0:36:04.832,0:36:08.151
without all the havoc that was [br]taking place in Europe.

0:36:08.151,0:36:09.353
That's number one.

0:36:09.353,0:36:13.255
Number two: you see what happened[br]with the protests.

0:36:13.255,0:36:16.139
The Gezi protests and all the chaos

0:36:16.139,0:36:19.297
that were completely scripted [br]and implemented in Turkey

0:36:19.297,0:36:23.516
by the United States, by the [br]Gladio operation

0:36:23.516,0:36:29.845
being defeated. Because they... [br]and there was so much coverage

0:36:29.845,0:36:32.538
when they were talking about [br]the elections coming

0:36:32.538,0:36:35.234
and Erdoğan was not gonna be elected.

0:36:35.234,0:36:37.672
But Turkey still stood unified,

0:36:37.672,0:36:39.132
and they re-elected this guy.

0:36:39.132,0:36:41.334
So I'm not saying this guy is good [br]or is bad.

0:36:41.334,0:36:46.516
We never, ever, in the Middle East, [br]intend to have

0:36:46.516,0:36:49.980
any allies that can be strong and unified.

0:36:49.980,0:36:54.516
So taking countries and making sure

0:36:54.516,0:36:57.943
that they are bogged down by [br]all these divisions

0:36:57.943,0:37:01.472
and internal conflicts between [br]various sects,

0:37:01.472,0:37:04.604
either along the religious lines, [br]Sunni versus Shia,

0:37:04.604,0:37:10.437
or along race, or along the ideologies:

0:37:10.437,0:37:16.078
that has been the recipe of...

0:37:16.078,0:37:19.542
and again, this is really interesting[br]because, Tom,

0:37:19.542,0:37:22.110
this is something that we took from...

0:37:22.110,0:37:24.710
-- I don't want to say "inherited..." --

0:37:24.710,0:37:26.905
but took from the Brits,[br]the British Empire.

0:37:26.905,0:37:27.645
(Tom) Sure.

0:37:27.645,0:37:31.636
(Sibel) Because that has always been [br]the modus operandi

0:37:31.636,0:37:35.880
of the British Empire. The divide [br]and conquer.

0:37:35.880,0:37:38.293
And that has been, even in Iran,

0:37:38.293,0:37:43.072
it's always been the tool utilized[br]and the modus operandi

0:37:43.072,0:37:46.690
put in place and practiced by the [br]British Empire,

0:37:46.690,0:37:51.593
and it is now part of the Gladio and [br]the United States' modus operandi.

0:37:51.593,0:37:54.791
So for... we don't want a strong Turkey.

0:37:54.791,0:37:57.823
We don't want a peaceful, unified Turkey.

0:37:57.823,0:37:59.461
We do not want a strong Iraq.

0:37:59.461,0:38:00.645
I mean, one of the...

0:38:00.645,0:38:03.457
look at, when we were taking over Iraq...

0:38:03.457,0:38:08.571
-- the war against Iraq, and then[br]Saddam, and going in there --

0:38:08.571,0:38:11.045
one of the things that made it[br]much easier...

0:38:11.045,0:38:15.208
-- and the chaos that's going on there,[br]currently, is completely intended --

0:38:15.208,0:38:18.164
was the country was not one country.

0:38:18.164,0:38:22.034
In the north, you had these whole [br]big Kurds who are against Saddam

0:38:22.034,0:38:24.840
they have had their internal wars[br]for years and years

0:38:24.840,0:38:26.519
between Saddam and the Kurds.

0:38:26.519,0:38:28.551
In the south, we had the Shias.

0:38:28.551,0:38:31.184
And in the center, we had the Sunnis.

0:38:31.184,0:38:33.217
And even during the First Gulf War,

0:38:33.217,0:38:35.224
that, again, was used:

0:38:35.224,0:38:37.751
with the Kurds in the north [br]and the Shias in the south,

0:38:37.751,0:38:40.808
and, look: all the people that [br]got massacred and killed

0:38:40.808,0:38:42.444
and from all three sides.

0:38:42.444,0:38:44.772
but that's exactly what we want.

0:38:44.772,0:38:47.857
And that's exactly what the [br]British Empire wanted before

0:38:47.857,0:38:52.772
when they re-drew the maps [br]of the entire region

0:38:52.772,0:38:54.365
and that includes, even, Africa.

0:38:54.365,0:38:57.214
The maps were drawn in such a way

0:38:57.214,0:39:02.211
that would keep these countries[br]to prosper, the region,

0:39:02.211,0:39:04.518
and to be unified, and to be peaceful.

0:39:04.518,0:39:07.695
These maps, the borders,

0:39:07.695,0:39:09.446
were all drawn and created

0:39:09.446,0:39:14.491
based on the division and the [br]dividing lines

0:39:14.491,0:39:17.455
between the tribes, between [br]various religious sects.

0:39:17.455,0:39:19.495
So absolutely, this is intended.

0:39:19.495,0:39:21.529
And as far as to what end,

0:39:21.529,0:39:25.050
this is why the book gets into, [br]well, Operation Gladio B

0:39:25.050,0:39:27.747
will be Operation Gladio C at some point

0:39:27.747,0:39:29.873
and Gladio C will be Gladio D

0:39:29.873,0:39:33.702
because one region you don't[br]hear American media talking about

0:39:33.702,0:39:36.553
it China and the Xinjiang region.

0:39:36.553,0:39:40.214
They call it [East] Turkestan, [br]they call it Uyghuristan.

0:39:40.214,0:39:44.879
The Uyghurs, well, these are[br]the Muslim minorities

0:39:44.879,0:39:47.886
in that region of China.

0:39:47.886,0:39:50.145
And they are Turkic heritage,

0:39:50.145,0:39:52.636
and we don't hear much about that.

0:39:52.636,0:39:53.943
But that is in the plan.

0:39:53.943,0:39:56.079
That is part of Operation Gladio.

0:39:56.079,0:39:59.650
And what we want, basically, is...

0:39:59.650,0:40:01.393
and that's what's gonna happen.

0:40:01.393,0:40:02.619
You're gonna see this happening

0:40:02.619,0:40:05.705
in the next, I would say, less than five,[br]six years.

0:40:05.705,0:40:09.094
You see, once in a while, they talk[br]about the US media

0:40:09.094,0:40:13.645
how oppressive the Chinese regime [br]is against these people.

0:40:13.645,0:40:16.720
You know, these people, they don't[br]consider themselves Chinese.

0:40:16.720,0:40:18.238
They consider themselves Muslims.

0:40:18.238,0:40:19.805
They consider themselves Uyghurs.

0:40:19.805,0:40:21.236
They consider themselves Turkic.

0:40:21.236,0:40:23.293
Their language is Turkic, OK?

0:40:23.293,0:40:24.693
They want independence.

0:40:24.693,0:40:28.117
Well, we have been cultivating that[br]for the past...

0:40:28.117,0:40:33.232
since 1997, 1996 there, OK?

0:40:33.232,0:40:34.972
And what we want is

0:40:34.972,0:40:39.282
we want some of these terror incidents

0:40:39.282,0:40:41.167
and the escalation of that,

0:40:41.167,0:40:45.475
and getting China to increase its [br]oppression and react,

0:40:45.475,0:40:49.637
because China wants to [xx] they just[br]want to defend their interests,

0:40:49.637,0:40:53.560
then show that to the international [br]community by saying,

0:40:53.560,0:40:57.354
"Look, these poor little minority [br]groups there,"

0:40:57.354,0:40:59.847
"They are being crucified. They are [br]being massacred"

0:40:59.847,0:41:01.960
"It's almost like genocide."

0:41:01.960,0:41:04.420
They want this genocidal operation,

0:41:04.420,0:41:09.150
they want it to escalate to the point [br]of genocidal operations,

0:41:09.150,0:41:11.143
they want to push China into reacting

0:41:11.143,0:41:14.101
and turning this into a genocidal [br]operations.

0:41:14.101,0:41:18.075
So then, with the consent of the [br]international community,

0:41:18.075,0:41:22.489
we go there, in there, and say we [br]are here to stand by the sects

0:41:22.489,0:41:24.560
because we are such great nation.

0:41:24.560,0:41:26.661
We care a lot [laughter]

0:41:26.661,0:41:28.891
about humanity.

0:41:28.891,0:41:32.115
And we always have these great [br]intentions.

0:41:32.115,0:41:34.637
It's always because we want to democrat---

0:41:34.637,0:41:37.998
we bring democracy and[br]democratize a nation.

0:41:37.998,0:41:40.070
We want to protect some underdog.

0:41:40.070,0:41:42.886
We want to defend some minority groups

0:41:42.886,0:41:45.169
because we are that kind of nation, guys.

0:41:45.169,0:41:48.718
OK? That's what we always, [br]always have done, right?

0:41:48.718,0:41:50.285
You know, it's always glorified.

0:41:50.285,0:41:52.364
We always intend good things.

0:41:52.364,0:41:55.135
And look, bad things happen as a result: [br]but they are unintended.

0:41:55.135,0:41:56.569
Again, going back to "blowback."

0:41:56.569,0:41:58.283
But once we have that,

0:41:58.283,0:42:00.960
once we have a situation escalate

0:42:00.960,0:42:02.516
and we are pushing it to that degree

0:42:02.516,0:42:05.477
-- this is all planned: it's been in[br]motion since 1996 --

0:42:05.477,0:42:08.172
then we're gonna say, "We've got to [br]help these guys,"

0:42:08.172,0:42:09.366
"so we've got to put our military there,"

0:42:09.366,0:42:11.867
and it's going to be another Taiwan.

0:42:11.867,0:42:13.607
That's the intention, OK?

0:42:13.607,0:42:14.811
That's the objective.

0:42:14.811,0:42:20.166
We want to separate Xinjiang area [br]from the rest of mainland China.

0:42:20.166,0:42:23.807
We will put a base there, in the name[br]of protecting these minorities,

0:42:23.807,0:42:26.544
and we're gonna turn it to [br]another Taiwan.

0:42:26.544,0:42:28.578
That is the ultimate goal.

0:42:28.578,0:42:30.809
And look and see where Xinjiang is:

0:42:30.809,0:42:37.116
not only for us to get close to China [br]just the way we are doing with Russia,

0:42:37.116,0:42:40.116
with using the Caucasus and Central Asia,

0:42:40.116,0:42:42.918
this is the start for us with this [br]Xinjiang region

0:42:42.918,0:42:47.198
to exactly implement the same objective,[br]the same plan

0:42:47.198,0:42:50.276
and get close to China and close in[br]on China.

0:42:50.276,0:42:51.477
So, that's number one.

0:42:51.477,0:42:56.181
And number two, if you look at the [br]pipeline scenario

0:42:56.181,0:42:57.895
-- this is for the oil and gas --

0:42:57.895,0:43:03.558
the oil and gas resource-rich regions[br]of Central Asia and Caucasus,

0:43:03.558,0:43:06.551
when you look at Turkmenistan [br]and Kazakhstan, et cetera,

0:43:06.551,0:43:09.337
and you see all the business deals

0:43:09.337,0:43:12.553
between China and these[br]Central Asia/Caucasus,

0:43:12.553,0:43:15.253
ex-Soviet nations...

0:43:15.253,0:43:18.283
--because how many billion people[br]are in China? --

0:43:18.283,0:43:23.106
China has the greatest need for[br]energy resources

0:43:23.106,0:43:25.312
compared to any other nation [br]in the world.

0:43:25.312,0:43:28.166
They need this oil, they need this gas,

0:43:28.166,0:43:31.076
and they are putting all these pipelines [br]to bring...

0:43:31.076,0:43:32.340
-- with business deals --

0:43:32.340,0:43:37.810
this needed gas and oil into China. [br]Into mainland china.

0:43:37.810,0:43:41.039
Well, go and see where these pipelines [br]pass through.

0:43:41.039,0:43:46.038
Then you start realizing the significance [br]of the Xinjiang region.

0:43:46.038,0:43:51.520
So by having our power, our military [br]boots on the ground,

0:43:51.520,0:43:53.674
our base there in Xinjiang,

0:43:53.674,0:43:56.435
not only we are controlling getting [br]close to China,

0:43:56.435,0:43:58.636
but we are sitting in the section

0:43:58.636,0:44:05.408
that is the [xx] that the pipelines entry[br]into mainland China.

0:44:05.408,0:44:10.050
We can starve and deprive China of all [br]oil and gas

0:44:10.050,0:44:12.981
coming from that region by sitting there.

0:44:12.981,0:44:18.894
So that's the area you don't hear much [br]from the mainstream media, US,

0:44:18.894,0:44:21.096
even though so much has been[br]taking place.

0:44:21.096,0:44:26.809
They only broadcast when China reacts[br]to some terror incidents that we manage

0:44:26.809,0:44:29.567
-- "we" being the United States, [br]Operation Gladio --

0:44:29.567,0:44:33.986
by the Xinjiang Uyghurs, and show[br]how despotic they are.

0:44:33.986,0:44:38.498
You know, they go there and they are[br]oppressing people, repressing people,

0:44:38.498,0:44:40.972
they are killing people, they are[br]jailing people,

0:44:40.972,0:44:43.795
awful stuff that China is doing to [br]these people, right?

0:44:43.795,0:44:46.732
We don't show the casualties of[br]when these groups, our groups,

0:44:46.732,0:44:49.764
implement terror operations in [br]mainland China,

0:44:49.764,0:44:52.268
but we right away broadcast[br]what China did.

0:44:52.268,0:44:55.891
So we are basically massaging[br]the peoples,

0:44:55.891,0:44:58.814
Americans and also[br]international communities,

0:44:58.814,0:45:01.242
and even especially the Muslim region,

0:45:01.242,0:45:04.777
of, "Look, what is China doing [br]to these people?"

0:45:04.777,0:45:06.444
The same thing we've been doing with,

0:45:06.444,0:45:08.616
"Look what Russians are doing [br]to Chechens!'

0:45:08.616,0:45:11.587
<i>Exactly</i> the same scenario.

0:45:11.587,0:45:13.214
It's the same Operation Gladio.

0:45:13.214,0:45:15.575
And again, when you said, "To what end?"

0:45:15.575,0:45:19.003
That's... we are... we have these[br]objectives in place.

0:45:19.003,0:45:22.152
Not "we:" the Operation;[br]the Operation Gladio.

0:45:22.152,0:45:24.700
And China and getting close,

0:45:24.700,0:45:30.634
controlling the entry of the needed oil [br]and gas into China

0:45:30.634,0:45:34.768
thus containing China from becoming [br]the superpower,

0:45:34.768,0:45:39.742
is in motion. And the same thing[br]with Russia.

0:45:39.742,0:45:43.216
And of course we have the prize [br]there that we haven't done anything.

0:45:43.216,0:45:46.252
That's for the next administration.

0:45:46.252,0:45:49.348
Right now, we have Syria. [br]We had Libya before that.

0:45:49.348,0:45:53.258
Yemen, Afghanistan with... we're[br]gonna stay there.

0:45:53.258,0:45:55.319
Of course that's gonna be our [br]permanent base.

0:45:55.319,0:45:56.976
There's no question about that.

0:45:56.976,0:45:58.746
Pakistan is our puppet region.

0:45:58.746,0:46:02.472
Of course, these regions sometimes[br]play off of US against China.

0:46:02.472,0:46:07.010
"OK, so you do this, then I'm gonna[br]go and make a deal with China."

0:46:07.010,0:46:08.471
Well, we don't want that, right?

0:46:08.471,0:46:12.491
And again, that ends up being[br]some headlines once in a while,

0:46:12.491,0:46:16.460
but the importance of it is way beyond[br]what the US media

0:46:16.460,0:46:18.560
represents in its reporting.

0:46:18.560,0:46:20.999
So of course the prize being Iran there.

0:46:20.999,0:46:23.327
And between Central Asia, Caucasus,

0:46:23.327,0:46:24.905
Iran, Afghanistan,

0:46:24.905,0:46:29.115
the goal is whoever controls [br]the resources,

0:46:29.115,0:46:35.141
the needed resources: the oil, the gas, the needed minerals --

0:46:35.141,0:46:37.329
that is the superpower.

0:46:37.952,0:46:41.826
That is the sole empire of the globe, the world.

0:46:41.826,0:46:45.983
And we have been doing it through[br]Operation Gladio,

0:46:45.983,0:46:49.507
and of course with our more [br]militaristic covert wars.

0:46:49.507,0:46:50.749
But then look at our competitors,

0:46:50.749,0:46:52.892
supposedly our enemies,

0:46:52.892,0:46:53.917
China and Russia:

0:46:53.917,0:46:56.076
we haven't seen anything like that[br]from them.

0:46:56.076,0:46:58.655
And so that is our modus operandi,

0:46:58.655,0:47:00.294
and that is the objective.

0:47:00.294,0:47:03.750
The objective is who is going to be [br]the sole superpower,

0:47:03.750,0:47:05.161
the super-empire.

0:47:05.161,0:47:06.793
And as long as that's the objective,

0:47:06.793,0:47:08.500
these are the things we're [br]gonna be doing.

0:47:08.500,0:47:12.547
(Pearse) Hmm. And I think that you're [br]really right in pointing out that this is...

0:47:12.547,0:47:16.897
the situation in Xinjiang right now is [br]actually starting

0:47:16.897,0:47:18.991
to get more, sort of, intense;

0:47:18.991,0:47:20.674
and we're already seeing Uyghurs

0:47:20.674,0:47:22.695
that were fighting in Iraq [br]that were captured.

0:47:22.695,0:47:26.081
And it seems that perhaps

0:47:26.081,0:47:28.943
we are entering into a different [br]phase of Gladio.

0:47:28.943,0:47:31.692
And just briefly, I just wanted to take [br]your take on

0:47:31.692,0:47:35.420
Tarkhan Batirashvili or Omar al-Shishani,

0:47:35.420,0:47:37.670
who is the "Ginger Jihadi."

0:47:37.670,0:47:40.877
And he seems to have been thrust [br]into the spotlight of ISIS.

0:47:40.877,0:47:44.970
There was a <i>Daily Beast</i> article calling[br]him "The Bin Laden of the Group."

0:47:44.970,0:47:48.299
Of course, and then a little bit down[br]in the article they say,

0:47:48.299,0:47:50.530
"Well, his brother is really the brains [br]behind all of this."

0:47:50.530,0:47:54.279
And Batirashvili has a somewhat [br]similar background

0:47:54.279,0:47:57.387
to a character in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>, [br]Yusuf Mohammed

0:47:57.387,0:48:00.402
and we'll leave that to the audience [br]to decipher who is is.

0:48:00.402,0:48:03.077
But of course, Batirashvili was trained [br]by the Americans

0:48:03.077,0:48:05.236
in a Georgian Special Forces outfit,

0:48:05.236,0:48:08.025
fought against the Russians in Chechnya,

0:48:08.025,0:48:10.839
and he has repeatedly said that he wants

0:48:10.839,0:48:13.607
to bring the fight back to Kadyrov [br]and Putin,

0:48:13.607,0:48:15.688
with not so much as a peep out [br]of Georgia.

0:48:15.688,0:48:19.464
So I just wanted to see and get your[br]take on this, Sibel.

0:48:19.464,0:48:24.935
And is this a, sort of, new ramping up?

0:48:24.935,0:48:30.554
Are we going to go from the small-scale[br]attacks like in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>,

0:48:30.554,0:48:34.772
like the bombing in the Defense Ministry[br]in the beginning of the book,

0:48:34.772,0:48:38.169
to a more, sort of, open war with Russia?

0:48:38.169,0:48:43.705
And with, perhaps, this Batirashvili -- [br]this white jihadi guy -- at the forefront?

0:48:43.705,0:48:49.351
(Sibel) My answer, I guess, will have [br]three different segments into it.

0:48:49.351,0:48:52.296
Number one, that's right: you mentioned [br]the character Yusuf Mohammed.

0:48:52.296,0:48:57.631
But the biography, the summary short [br]biography that you just mentioned,

0:48:57.631,0:49:00.938
fits exactly Ayman Zawahiri's.

0:49:00.938,0:49:01.953
Mm.

0:49:01.953,0:49:04.924
OK? Ayman Zawahiri was jailed; [br]he was tortured.

0:49:04.924,0:49:10.232
Then he went there and became the [br]lieutenant for Osama Bin Laden

0:49:10.232,0:49:16.873
and was fighting against Russia in... [br]with <i>mujahideen</i> cell in Afghanistan.

0:49:16.873,0:49:20.271
So you... as you said, you're looking [br]at the repeated bios.

0:49:20.271,0:49:24.202
So these are the... the profiles are [br]so consistent.

0:49:24.202,0:49:26.635
See, that's one of the other [br]interesting things

0:49:26.635,0:49:30.041
about the United States and NATO,

0:49:30.041,0:49:31.620
the Operation Gladio,

0:49:31.620,0:49:33.373
and that is the consistency.

0:49:33.373,0:49:37.746
Really, you may see some small[br]variations here and there,

0:49:37.746,0:49:40.581
but if you look at it overall,

0:49:40.581,0:49:43.842
the script is the same. The scenario [br]is the same.

0:49:43.842,0:49:48.563
I mean, in a way: it's awful, but it's [br]also boring.

0:49:48.563,0:49:49.728
But guess what?

0:49:49.728,0:49:53.286
If it works, if it ain't break, [br]don't fix it, right?

0:49:53.286,0:49:54.461
That's how the saying goes?

0:49:54.461,0:49:56.735
It worked with Afghanistan,

0:49:56.735,0:50:00.297
it worked with... it has been working.

0:50:00.297,0:50:02.862
So why change it, right?

0:50:02.862,0:50:05.061
So that's number one aspect of it.

0:50:05.061,0:50:08.435
That the bios being exactly consistent[br]as the rest of them.

0:50:08.435,0:50:11.940
you know, Zawahiri and Yusuf Mohammed.

0:50:11.940,0:50:14.439
And the second part of it

0:50:14.439,0:50:17.584
has to do with the psychological [br]aspects of it.

0:50:17.584,0:50:19.458
And this is the psychological warfare,

0:50:19.458,0:50:21.576
and also propaganda.

0:50:21.576,0:50:26.708
And that is when you put... let's say [br]you have an enemy cell.

0:50:26.708,0:50:30.094
ISIS, ISIS, right? They are doing [br]these ferocious things.

0:50:30.094,0:50:32.606
It goes only so far.

0:50:32.606,0:50:35.063
Of course, let's say, look at the [br]Americans' opinion:

0:50:35.063,0:50:39.017
these barbaric Muslims -- they[br]are Islamists, number one.

0:50:39.017,0:50:40.575
"This is what Islam advocates,"

0:50:40.575,0:50:43.594
"and these barbaric extremists,[br]they're doing all this stuff. "

0:50:43.594,0:50:47.058
Goes... it's effective; but it goes [br]only so far.

0:50:47.058,0:50:52.420
What you always need in a [br]psychological warfare and propaganda

0:50:52.420,0:50:56.351
is to put a human, actual human face [br]and name to it.

0:50:56.351,0:51:00.224
Because then, that makes it so[br]personal, right?

0:51:00.224,0:51:05.227
Because, as we did with Osama Bin Laden.

0:51:05.227,0:51:09.066
Showing the picture of that Khalid [br]Sheikh Mohammed.

0:51:09.066,0:51:11.796
That evil-looking guy, you know? [br]He's crazy, right?

0:51:11.796,0:51:13.496
"MOOONSTER!"

0:51:13.496,0:51:16.421
So we associate, when we think [br]about the Americans...

0:51:16.421,0:51:17.430
you know, people,

0:51:17.430,0:51:20.597
then we are thinking about these [br]horrifying boogeymen.

0:51:20.597,0:51:23.081
If we don't have, put some pictures [br]there...

0:51:23.081,0:51:25.082
you know, it's like Freddy Krueger, [br]right?

0:51:25.082,0:51:29.864
Freddy Kruger. I mean, you can write[br]all the stories about Freddy Krueger,

0:51:29.864,0:51:33.581
but if you don't create an image[br]that goes with Freddy Krueger,

0:51:33.581,0:51:37.531
Freddy Krueger can't become [br]that monstrously scary, right?

0:51:37.531,0:51:42.907
So Osama Bin Laden, with that long [br]beard and the dark, piercing black eyes,

0:51:42.907,0:51:48.329
that screams evil, and you have Khalid [br]Sheikh Mohammed, that crazed guy there.

0:51:48.329,0:51:51.669
And then you are looking at[br]Ayman Zawahiri,

0:51:51.669,0:51:55.545
and the photos when he's talking[br]passionate with his index finger up,

0:51:55.545,0:51:59.593
you know, the extremist Islamist [br]mullah with his headpiece.

0:51:59.593,0:52:01.418
Well, those are effective.

0:52:01.418,0:52:04.983
Because just like Hollywood movies,[br]just like Freddy Krueger,

0:52:04.983,0:52:07.398
you need to have a human face [br]and name

0:52:07.398,0:52:10.634
that you make it synonymous with [br]whatever cell

0:52:10.634,0:52:13.688
you have created and put in[br]place, right?

0:52:13.688,0:52:15.699
And that's exactly what we are [br]seeing with this guy.

0:52:15.699,0:52:20.291
Because ISIS, ISIL, IS -- they did this? [br]OK, that's fine.

0:52:20.291,0:52:24.591
But now it's time to enter, to bring in

0:52:24.591,0:52:27.024
and introduce the face that [br]represents it all.

0:52:27.024,0:52:29.903
Now, you have [xx] this person.

0:52:29.903,0:52:32.491
So that's the second segment.

0:52:32.491,0:52:34.451
And as far as yet bigger war,

0:52:34.451,0:52:39.657
I think we are putting things in place [br]for that if needed,

0:52:39.657,0:52:43.962
but I will offer my own[br]hypothesis theory.

0:52:43.962,0:52:45.824
Because I don't know this for a fact,

0:52:45.824,0:52:48.756
but if someone were to ask me to speculate

0:52:48.756,0:52:53.170
and say when and why... [br]when we would do such things,

0:52:53.170,0:52:55.197
in terms of going into full-blown war,

0:52:55.197,0:52:58.159
this is what I have to offer.

0:52:58.159,0:53:01.381
Again, this is based on my own analysis [br]and opinion,

0:53:01.381,0:53:04.493
and I'm not going to market it as,[br]"Oh, this is pure fact."

0:53:04.493,0:53:05.933
This is my opinion.

0:53:05.933,0:53:08.712
First of all, we are going to see much[br]more stuff

0:53:08.712,0:53:10.706
with Georgia, Abkhazia region.

0:53:10.706,0:53:14.937
We had that -- what was it? -- six-day [br]war, eight-day war a few years ago?

0:53:14.937,0:53:16.347
That was just a warm-up.

0:53:16.347,0:53:22.070
But with Georgia's candidacy, [br]integration into NATO that is coming,

0:53:22.070,0:53:25.619
that is going to happen in that region.

0:53:25.619,0:53:29.772
We're gonna see more conflict[br]and confrontation there.

0:53:29.772,0:53:34.254
Similar to Ukraine, we're gonna see it [br]in the Abkhazia region there.

0:53:34.254,0:53:36.885
And again, these terror cells and [br]the groups,

0:53:36.885,0:53:39.807
we have already cultivated, [br]put together, put in place,

0:53:39.807,0:53:41.351
we've been managing in that region.

0:53:41.351,0:53:44.434
We got a little bit of taste of [br]that during

0:53:44.434,0:53:47.104
the so-called false flag Boston [br]bombing.

0:53:47.104,0:53:49.460
People started hearing,

0:53:49.460,0:53:51.427
at least their ears got a little bit [br]used to,

0:53:51.427,0:53:54.011
this "Dagestan" region?

0:53:54.011,0:53:54.828
[laughter]

0:53:54.828,0:53:55.788
You see?

0:53:55.788,0:53:58.415
Because ordinarily, most Americans: [br]they don't like geography, OK?

0:53:58.415,0:54:03.083
They like to view the world as this... [br]the United States of America.

0:54:03.083,0:54:04.614
OK? It's huge.

0:54:04.614,0:54:06.895
Look, Turkey's the size of Texas, right?

0:54:06.895,0:54:08.931
Well, I don't even know where Turkey [br]exactly is.

0:54:08.931,0:54:09.896
We are a big country,

0:54:09.896,0:54:11.981
we are just by ourselves here.

0:54:11.981,0:54:15.264
There are some countries and nations [br]with weird names, oh,

0:54:15.264,0:54:17.254
thousands of miles away.

0:54:17.254,0:54:18.433
Who needs to know about them?

0:54:18.433,0:54:20.400
If you were to ask Americans,

0:54:20.400,0:54:23.973
I would say 94 percent -- I'm just gonna [br]throw a number here --

0:54:23.973,0:54:25.796
if you put the map and say,

0:54:25.796,0:54:30.718
"OK, put your finger on the region that[br]is considered Caucasus/Central Asia,"

0:54:30.718,0:54:34.448
I can guarantee you, if we were to [br]implement this test,

0:54:34.448,0:54:36.750
You would see that 94% of Americans,

0:54:36.750,0:54:39.311
their index finger would freeze [br]in the air.

0:54:39.311,0:54:43.147
"What?" "Can you show me Kyrgyzstan?"[br]"What's that?"

0:54:43.147,0:54:46.620
I mean, I'll just give you a quick... [br]it's not a joke, it's a real-life thing.

0:54:46.620,0:54:50.429
When I started college, university [br]here in the United States --

0:54:50.429,0:54:54.878
and this is during my second, third year, [br]so this is not in high school

0:54:54.878,0:54:56.227
this is in college-level

0:54:56.227,0:54:59.419
this one guy in my class, he says, [br]"You're from Turkey, right?"

0:54:59.419,0:55:00.589
I said, "Yeah, I'm from Turkey."

0:55:00.589,0:55:04.002
He says, "Turkey is in Saudi Arabia, [br]right?"

0:55:04.002,0:55:05.383
"One of the nations in Saudi Arabia?"

0:55:05.383,0:55:08.145
And I was like, "Oh my goodness."

0:55:08.145,0:55:11.455
They have made Saudi Arabia a continent,

0:55:12.292,0:55:17.075
And Turkey a nation in that [br]continent called Saudi Arabia.

0:55:17.075,0:55:18.133
But unfortunately

0:55:18.133,0:55:20.450
-- this is a fact; this is true, OK? --

0:55:20.450,0:55:24.688
we... I spent years living in [br]other countries.

0:55:24.688,0:55:26.136
I lived in Vietnam for a year.

0:55:26.136,0:55:30.647
I lived in Russia in 1992, right after [br]the end of the Cold War.

0:55:30.647,0:55:36.291
And I have traveled to a lot of [br]places, to many, many countries.

0:55:36.291,0:55:40.576
But when it comes to geography, [br]with Americans,

0:55:40.576,0:55:45.030
I never... I'm still amazed, OK? [br]It is just...

0:55:45.030,0:55:48.359
and then I traveled... another thing[br]I noticed, like, when I was

0:55:48.359,0:55:49.931
when I was there, when I was in Vietnam,

0:55:49.931,0:55:53.772
I saw all these backpackers[br]from Scandinavian nations

0:55:53.772,0:55:56.769
Australia, New Zealand, a lot of Brits.

0:55:56.769,0:55:58.702
You know, they are 21, right[br]out of college.

0:55:58.702,0:56:00.537
Or they are taking a break from college.

0:56:00.537,0:56:05.513
And they have their backpacks, and they [br]are traveling all over Laos and Vietnam.

0:56:05.513,0:56:08.009
And I struck a friendship with a lot of [br]these people.

0:56:08.009,0:56:10.429
You hardly see Americans doing that.

0:56:10.429,0:56:16.871
There is this inherent desire to explore [br]the world by some of those nations.

0:56:16.871,0:56:19.211
But you don't see it much for Americans.

0:56:19.211,0:56:23.702
That's another thing: that worldliness [br]which reduces xenophobia.

0:56:23.702,0:56:25.368
When you start getting more familiar,

0:56:25.368,0:56:31.333
the culture and other traditions and [br]people and races,

0:56:31.333,0:56:33.686
that kind of reduces your xenophobia,

0:56:33.686,0:56:38.077
but also it makes you an informed [br]person about the world.

0:56:38.077,0:56:40.997
It makes you worldly. [br]Well, you don't see that much in America.

0:56:40.997,0:56:44.047
So, going back to the topic [br]of Kyrgyzstan,

0:56:44.047,0:56:45.430
"I don't even know where that is,"

0:56:45.430,0:56:49.484
we are going to see this conflict.

0:56:49.484,0:56:51.020
We have already planted that.

0:56:51.020,0:56:54.336
We said, "Let's make Americans [br]familiar with this name Dagestan"'

0:56:54.336,0:56:57.715
Dagestan and terrorism have become [br]kind of synonymous

0:56:57.715,0:56:59.251
thanks to the Boston bombing.

0:56:59.251,0:57:01.762
So Chechen, Dagestan, these people came,

0:57:01.762,0:57:02.712
they're extremists.

0:57:02.712,0:57:04.534
They're somehow related

0:57:04.534,0:57:08.106
to either al-Qaeda or Jamaati [br][sic: Jabhat?] al-Nusra... whatever.

0:57:08.106,0:57:10.427
But that region has many, [br]many terrorists, OK?

0:57:10.427,0:57:14.613
We are going to reintroduce that[br]topic again as a nation,

0:57:14.613,0:57:17.746
as Operation Gladio, when the time[br]comes, which is going to be soon

0:57:17.746,0:57:19.931
in Georgia, Abkhazia region.

0:57:19.931,0:57:22.370
But as far as a bigger war with Russia,

0:57:22.370,0:57:26.676
I doubt it under current circumstances. [br]That's my opinion,

0:57:26.676,0:57:29.368
because of Putin and who Putin is.

0:57:29.368,0:57:32.462
And again, Putin's rating went [br]up in Russia,

0:57:32.462,0:57:35.986
and Putin's popularity really went[br]up there.

0:57:35.986,0:57:40.060
And Putin has been portrayed, [br]even here by US media,

0:57:40.060,0:57:44.001
as a tough, nationalistic leader [br]in Russia, right?

0:57:44.001,0:57:47.025
Because Putin is standing up [br]to the United States.

0:57:47.025,0:57:50.025
He did -- he and the Russians --

0:57:50.025,0:57:53.718
when we were talking about going[br]into Syria two years ago, right?

0:57:53.718,0:57:56.045
And of course what we saw with Ukraine.

0:57:56.045,0:58:02.512
My theory is just like the limited [br]opposition framed and controlled,

0:58:02.512,0:58:07.319
I believe there is... we have Putin tied,

0:58:07.319,0:58:12.686
and into a certain degree, Putin [br]can only do it so much.

0:58:12.686,0:58:16.068
And you're going to say, why that is?

0:58:16.068,0:58:20.100
One of, again, our modus operandi [br]has been...

0:58:20.100,0:58:23.670
-- and you see it a lot in Operation Gladio-related sections

0:58:23.670,0:58:25.390
of <i>The Lone Gladio</i> --

0:58:25.390,0:58:30.445
is blackmail and collecting crap, [br]shit from people, right?

0:58:30.445,0:58:32.130
I mean, we do it with Congress.

0:58:32.130,0:58:38.890
Even with the FBI we did it. FBI had files[br]on some top figures in the House.

0:58:38.890,0:58:46.519
Just in the operation that involved [br]Turkey and the Turkish lobby, right?

0:58:46.519,0:58:48.715
That was involved in my case.

0:58:48.715,0:58:51.910
but CIA has been doing it forever,

0:58:51.910,0:58:54.227
since its inception and creation.

0:58:54.227,0:58:58.377
There are some Presidents, [br]and we do that.

0:58:58.377,0:58:59.844
Otherwise they won't become President.

0:58:59.844,0:59:02.308
That's one of the qualifications, [br]requirements.

0:59:02.308,0:59:05.252
And again, the book <i>The Lone Gladio </i>[br]goes into that.

0:59:05.252,0:59:07.605
To be qualified to get to that level,

0:59:07.605,0:59:09.150
to that level of power seat,

0:59:09.150,0:59:11.602
you have to have a lot of dirt, OK?

0:59:11.602,0:59:14.229
That makes you a viable candidate.

0:59:14.229,0:59:16.176
because you are controllable.

0:59:16.176,0:59:19.869
If you don't have lots of skeletons [br]and dirt,

0:59:19.869,0:59:22.373
you are not as easily controllable.

0:59:22.373,0:59:28.536
It's pure and simple. Well we've been [br]doing that with, also, world leaders.

0:59:28.536,0:59:31.034
It just came out and leaked that, OK,

0:59:31.034,0:59:34.308
we've been collecting dirt on Angela [br]Merkel, right?

0:59:34.308,0:59:38.809
With this NSA spying: her personal [br]phones were being listened to, correct?

0:59:38.809,0:59:43.067
Well, why would we do that? [br]Think about it.

0:59:43.067,0:59:44.859
Because at any given time...

0:59:44.859,0:59:49.263
let's say someone like Angela Merkel, if[br]she was not the scumbag that she is, OK?

0:59:49.263,0:59:54.731
And we decided that you know, Germany, [br]or this country or that country,

0:59:54.731,0:59:56.560
is not backing us with this,

0:59:56.560,0:59:59.121
what would happen if we...

0:59:59.121,1:00:02.134
-- "We," the United States; [br]Operation Gladio --

1:00:02.134,1:00:08.585
would release to the media in France,[br]or in Germany, or in UK?

1:00:08.585,1:00:11.323
All sorts of recorded tapes,

1:00:11.323,1:00:14.694
and also maybe some Internet activities

1:00:14.694,1:00:18.394
showing that this particular leader [br]is a pedophile, OK?

1:00:18.394,1:00:20.490
Let's say... you know, let's say Sarkozy.

1:00:20.490,1:00:23.163
I'm just giving you a hypothetical[br]example.

1:00:23.163,1:00:27.611
What would happen if all these pictures [br]come out

1:00:27.611,1:00:30.118
that Sarkozy has been having

1:00:30.118,1:00:32.462
this relationship with five, [br]six-years-old boys

1:00:32.462,1:00:35.637
and, through... and he's been a pedophile?

1:00:35.637,1:00:38.435
Can you imagine right away that leader [br]not disappearing from that country?

1:00:38.435,1:00:42.477
We have that power, because we've [br]been... we've been doing this a lot.

1:00:42.477,1:00:48.904
We first use what we collect on the [br]world leaders in terms of blackmail

1:00:48.904,1:00:52.755
by saying, "You know what? You don't[br]do this and we will expose this."

1:00:52.755,1:00:57.183
OK? Number two, if needed, we would [br]do that.

1:00:57.183,1:01:02.152
Some things happen with the Bakayev [br]family in Kyrgyzstan

1:01:02.152,1:01:05.856
A lot of things are associated with that [br]that I'm not gonna get into right now.

1:01:05.856,1:01:11.581
But with Putin, it's already estimated[br]that his net worth, his wealth,

1:01:11.581,1:01:13.936
is way over $500 million dollars, OK?

1:01:13.936,1:01:18.817
Where is his money?[br]As of 2003, 2004 --

1:01:18.817,1:01:23.441
and this is based on direct, [br]first/second-hand information

1:01:23.441,1:01:24.991
from people within intelligence community

1:01:24.991,1:01:32.224
a lot of his wealth is kept in the Greek [br]portion of Cyprus, the banks there.

1:01:32.224,1:01:36.204
And they're... so if intelligence [br]agencies,

1:01:36.204,1:01:40.403
CIA, and even through [br]counterintelligence monitoring FBI,

1:01:40.403,1:01:44.539
knows and has all the information[br]

1:01:44.539,1:01:46.579
about where Putin keeps some [br]of his wealth,

1:01:46.579,1:01:50.106
or if some other leader[br]keeps it in Dubai,

1:01:50.106,1:01:53.741
this ones keeps it -- let's say, [br]hypothetically speaking,

1:01:53.741,1:01:57.070
Putin keeps it in certain banks in Malta?

1:01:57.070,1:01:58.683
OK? Malta is another important place.

1:01:58.683,1:01:59.517
Nobody talks about it,

1:01:59.517,1:02:04.395
but in terms of the money laundering [br]and the financial operations center

1:02:04.395,1:02:06.294
and in Cyprus.

1:02:06.294,1:02:12.059
And if this were to come out in Russia -- [br]how did he get this wealth, OK?

1:02:12.059,1:02:14.797
Because this is the nation's wealth[br]that leaders go and take out, right?

1:02:14.797,1:02:18.151
In countries like... whatever countries [br]that you look at.

1:02:18.151,1:02:20.070
And where they are kept.

1:02:20.070,1:02:21.705
They can...

1:02:21.705,1:02:23.336
-- and this is the Operation Gladio,

1:02:23.336,1:02:25.335
this is the United States,[br]this is the UK --

1:02:25.335,1:02:28.969
they can make Putin a scandalous leader

1:02:28.969,1:02:32.429
and take away all his popularity

1:02:32.429,1:02:35.208
in less than a day, if they wanted to.

1:02:35.208,1:02:37.937
If they wanted to.

1:02:38.084,1:02:43.524
So you are looking at a leader, [br]let's say in Russia, that has to

1:02:43.524,1:02:47.565
balance... has to balance two things.

1:02:47.764,1:02:52.641
Number one, to appeal to the [br]nationalistic side of its nation

1:02:52.641,1:02:57.596
Because any leader of Russia has to [br]kind of be tough

1:02:57.596,1:02:59.732
when it comes to the Western powers, [br]right?

1:02:59.732,1:03:01.245
Because it was not that long ago

1:03:01.245,1:03:03.874
when Russia was the Soviet Union.

1:03:03.874,1:03:05.812
It was the second empire in the world.

1:03:05.812,1:03:09.191
It was the Western empire, and it[br]was the Soviet Union, OK?

1:03:09.191,1:03:10.704
So in order to stay in power,

1:03:11.598,1:03:16.960
that leader has to appeal and maintain [br]that faith of the people there,

1:03:16.960,1:03:19.584
that he's tough, and he can stand up.

1:03:19.584,1:03:21.745
He's not a butler, OK? He's not weak.

1:03:21.745,1:03:23.398
He can stand up to the United States.

1:03:23.398,1:03:26.336
He can growl and say, "Rawwwrr!" OK?

1:03:26.336,1:03:29.872
Or maybe bark a little bit, and say,[br]"Woof, woof!" OK?

1:03:29.872,1:03:31.474
But, he won't bite.

1:03:31.474,1:03:35.407
Because then that leader has [br]to balance it.

1:03:35.407,1:03:38.452
Because we know Russia has a [br]lot of corrupt people.

1:03:38.452,1:03:41.313
We know that. I lived there for a[br]year, OK?

1:03:41.313,1:03:46.943
And I know how a lot of top-level[br]KGB, former KGB people

1:03:46.943,1:03:51.194
got to be some of the top business[br]people we hear about today,

1:03:51.194,1:03:56.146
with hundreds of million or billion[br]dollars net worth.

1:03:56.146,1:03:59.162
So that... you need a leader that [br]can growl,

1:03:59.162,1:04:02.509
that can bark a little bit when the [br]situation arises,

1:04:02.509,1:04:07.303
and appeal to his people's [br]nationalistic tendencies.

1:04:07.303,1:04:09.671
They still have that pride, Russians.

1:04:09.671,1:04:13.374
But yet, do it to a certain degree,

1:04:13.374,1:04:16.411
and not totally piss off and totally [br]stand up to

1:04:16.411,1:04:20.118
the Western nations that have [br]the blackmail power.

1:04:20.118,1:04:23.455
That have the power to expose him, OK?

1:04:23.455,1:04:26.735
That is, I believe, what we see [br]with Putin.

1:04:26.735,1:04:30.152
We do see some really [br]nice-looking growling,

1:04:30.152,1:04:31.819
and a little woof-woof,

1:04:31.819,1:04:33.668
but Putin is not going to bite.

1:04:33.668,1:04:36.917
And as long as Putin is in this position,

1:04:36.917,1:04:40.786
I don't believe that we are going to [br]see a full-blown war with Russia.

1:04:40.786,1:04:45.457
It's not gonna happen, because [br]another thing you should look at is,

1:04:45.457,1:04:46.936
ask yourself,

1:04:46.936,1:04:48.406
and I'm gonna ask, because you both

1:04:48.406,1:04:52.211
are experts with this whole area[br]and the region,

1:04:52.211,1:04:59.067
how come Russia really hasn't done [br]anything in the past 15 years

1:04:59.067,1:05:05.541
when the United States and NATO [br]has been closing in to Russia's borders

1:05:05.541,1:05:08.317
by taking over Azerbaijan,

1:05:08.317,1:05:11.838
you know, until last year, Manas, [br]Kyrgyzstan;

1:05:11.838,1:05:14.589
Georgia, OK?

1:05:14.589,1:05:19.816
And you start looking at all this,[br]and say, "Whoa!"

1:05:19.816,1:05:20.913
Think about it!

1:05:20.913,1:05:26.851
Why, for the past 14, 15 years, [br]Russia hasn't become really antsy.

1:05:26.851,1:05:29.406
Saying, "Well, these are my [br]backdoor neighbors."

1:05:29.406,1:05:31.218
"They're right there on my border."

1:05:31.218,1:05:32.763
Think about it: why not?

1:05:32.763,1:05:35.249
Let me put it on the other hand and say,

1:05:35.249,1:05:36.477
what would happen...

1:05:36.477,1:05:41.081
imagine, what would happen if Russia[br]starts building closer relationship

1:05:41.081,1:05:43.376
-- business relationship; militaristically, [br]relationship --

1:05:43.376,1:05:44.777
with Mexico,

1:05:44.777,1:05:47.913
and starts coming to Mexico [br]and put a huge base there

1:05:47.913,1:05:52.488
with 15,000 boots on the ground [br]in the base, with Mexico?

1:05:52.488,1:05:53.650
Oh, it would be chaos!

1:05:53.650,1:05:56.297
Can you imagine?

1:05:56.297,1:05:59.337
First of all, we would not, as United [br]States, let it get to that point, right?

1:05:59.337,1:06:02.625
And even as a notion would arise,

1:06:02.625,1:06:07.206
we would start using what power we[br]have with Mexico, right?

1:06:07.206,1:06:09.494
And do everything: that would not happen.

1:06:09.494,1:06:11.969
It would not happen. Not...

1:06:11.969,1:06:13.232
or in Canada, OK?

1:06:13.232,1:06:14.603
Or even let's go further:

1:06:14.603,1:06:16.999
what would happen if, Russia says,

1:06:16.999,1:06:18.330
"Now I'm gonna go and put a base,"

1:06:18.330,1:06:20.090
"because I have now put this [br]relationship,"

1:06:20.090,1:06:23.097
because a lot of these nations, [br]all you have to do is make a contract,

1:06:23.097,1:06:25.217
business contract for $15 billion [br]dollars,

1:06:25.217,1:06:26.740
you have the country and its leader.

1:06:26.740,1:06:29.787
And I'm gonna put it in Panama, OK? [br]Where the canal is. ;

1:06:29.787,1:06:32.381
Put myself strategically in that [br]situation.

1:06:32.381,1:06:35.387
Can you <i>imagine</i> that being allowed?

1:06:35.387,1:06:38.733
It wouldn't even come <i>close</i>[br]to implementation.

1:06:38.733,1:06:42.005
Now, let's go back to the other side.

1:06:42.005,1:06:44.070
How come, for the last 15 years,

1:06:44.070,1:06:50.095
Russia has not made a peep, sound, [br]about the United States, NATO,

1:06:50.095,1:06:53.818
going and putting all these bases in all[br]these countries right along its borders?

1:06:53.818,1:06:54.715
Why?

1:06:54.715,1:06:55.212
[laughter]

1:06:55.212,1:06:56.669
(Pearse) I actually don't know,

1:06:56.669,1:06:58.214
because I see it as...

1:06:58.214,1:07:01.167
with Abkhazia and now South Ossetia,

1:07:01.167,1:07:05.102
that Russia might sort of be saying, [br]"If you're gonna keep moving,"

1:07:05.102,1:07:07.152
"Then we'll take these little tiny [br]areas,"

1:07:07.152,1:07:09.924
"And what are the Georgians going to do?"

1:07:09.924,1:07:12.344
But I don't know. I'd like to hear your...

1:07:12.344,1:07:13.169
(Sibel) That's right.

1:07:13.169,1:07:16.857
But that would be similar, it would[br]be parallel to saying,

1:07:16.857,1:07:22.878
we would let Russia to come and [br]put this bases in, let's say, in Mexico,

1:07:22.878,1:07:26.920
and then if Russia starts coming [br]towards Texas

1:07:26.920,1:07:30.056
and do something right along [br]the Texas border,

1:07:30.056,1:07:32.415
then US may flex its muscle.

1:07:32.415,1:07:35.244
But we would never let that happen [br]in the first place,

1:07:35.244,1:07:38.058
to put ourselves in that vulnerable[br]situation.

1:07:38.058,1:07:43.767
And even the stupidest Russian [br]general, Russian strategic analyst,

1:07:43.767,1:07:46.010
they would know from 15 years ago

1:07:46.010,1:07:50.543
that putting these bases by US and[br]NATO in Kyrgyzstan and Azerbaijan,

1:07:50.543,1:07:56.185
that would definitely lead to what [br]we saw happening with Ukraine, OK?

1:07:56.185,1:08:00.917
Because the preparation for this[br]started taking place in mid-'90s.

1:08:00.917,1:08:03.289
When after the fall of the Soviet Union,

1:08:03.289,1:08:08.060
we started seeing with Eastern Europe [br]and all these nations,

1:08:08.060,1:08:10.140
we're gonna get closer [br]and closer and closer:

1:08:10.140,1:08:13.208
during this entire period [br]of 20 years, almost,

1:08:13.208,1:08:15.470
Russia and Russian leaders...

1:08:15.470,1:08:18.674
and we know what kind of Russian [br]leaders we had even before Putin, right?

1:08:18.674,1:08:21.300
Gorbachev? Very nationalistic, you think?

1:08:21.300,1:08:26.362
Russia sat there and let the [br]United States and NATO

1:08:26.362,1:08:27.979
closing up on it, right?

1:08:27.979,1:08:32.538
And closing in, closing in, and [br]now we saw the stuff with Ukraine,

1:08:32.538,1:08:34.577
and then we're gonna be seeing[br]with Georgia.

1:08:34.577,1:08:36.168
But it was allowed to happen.

1:08:36.168,1:08:39.110
They didn't stand up and say, [br]"Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa!"

1:08:39.110,1:08:41.762
"Over my dead body! You're not coming [br]this close!"

1:08:41.762,1:08:43.080
They didn't.

1:08:43.080,1:08:47.009
Meaning, Russia never went to war [br]for any of these places,

1:08:47.009,1:08:50.695
the colonizations that we have been [br]putting in place in that region.

1:08:50.695,1:08:52.557
We didn't need to have any war [br]with Russia.

1:08:52.557,1:08:55.961
We didn't even have any kind of[br]a posturing war with Russia.

1:08:55.961,1:08:58.315
It happened, very easily. Smooth sail.

1:08:58.315,1:09:01.150
Thus, this is why I'm thinking

1:09:01.150,1:09:06.275
that the chances of having a full-blown[br]war with Russia is highly unlikely,

1:09:06.275,1:09:12.079
<i>unless</i>, unless, we have been [br]reading the notion and the fact

1:09:12.079,1:09:15.614
that there is a revival of nationalism [br]in Russia.

1:09:15.614,1:09:22.246
That people, they're... the segment,[br]the nationalistic segment saying, OK,

1:09:22.246,1:09:25.527
initially, at the end of Cold War, I went [br]to Russia.

1:09:25.527,1:09:26.621
I lived there for almost a year.

1:09:26.621,1:09:30.046
It was this huge desire [br]of Westernization,

1:09:30.046,1:09:32.011
especially in Saint Petersburg[br]and Moscow.

1:09:32.011,1:09:37.102
I arrived in Moscow from Saint P, [br]because my base was in Saint Petersburg,

1:09:37.102,1:09:39.581
on the day that the first McDonald's [br]opened In Moscow,

1:09:39.581,1:09:42.060
in this big center there.

1:09:42.060,1:09:44.540
And as we were approaching

1:09:44.540,1:09:46.916
that downtown section where [br]McDonald's opened,

1:09:46.916,1:09:49.452
the traffic was just stood still.

1:09:49.452,1:09:53.528
They had this line -- and it was a[br]very big McDonald's building --

1:09:53.528,1:09:59.430
there was this line that wrapped around [br]this McDonald's building for the opening

1:09:59.430,1:10:04.286
that was, like, going around about [br]14, 15 times.

1:10:04.286,1:10:07.222
And if you would stand them up in [br]one linear line,

1:10:07.222,1:10:12.167
you would see almost quarter mile of[br]a line in front of the first McDonald's.

1:10:12.167,1:10:15.544
It was a huge deal, OK?

1:10:15.544,1:10:17.346
I mean, it was...

1:10:17.346,1:10:23.017
it was during the shock stage of the[br]Soviet Union disappearing.

1:10:23.017,1:10:24.992
People didn't know what to think.

1:10:24.992,1:10:27.793
They had this desire of openness, [br]they can wear the...

1:10:27.793,1:10:30.312
they can have lipstick. They can go [br]and buy this lipstick.

1:10:30.312,1:10:32.227
You don't have to buy it from the[br]black market.

1:10:32.227,1:10:36.032
And then the country was saturated [br]with all these vultures

1:10:36.032,1:10:37.739
from the US and from Europe.

1:10:37.739,1:10:41.450
Who were there to take away things [br]quickly, while things were cheap.

1:10:41.450,1:10:44.468
There was this US group that was buying

1:10:44.468,1:10:46.916
the high-value downtown real estate.

1:10:46.916,1:10:48.929
There was no regulation.

1:10:48.929,1:10:50.940
I mean, it was total chaos,

1:10:50.940,1:10:53.184
and the Western nations were[br]taking advantage of it.

1:10:53.184,1:10:55.184
They were just placing themselves,

1:10:55.184,1:10:56.770
they were putting their boots, [br]business boots, on the ground.

1:10:58.356,1:10:59.942
But the Russians were just too baffled.

1:10:59.942,1:11:02.915
They were excited about all the [br]Western things.

1:11:02.915,1:11:07.232
They were a bit shocked: they couldn't [br]believe that the Soviet Union was over.

1:11:07.232,1:11:11.891
And so that era of shock and awe for them

1:11:11.891,1:11:16.124
started kind of wearing off around 2002, [br]2003.

1:11:16.124,1:11:20.510
Now, gradually, we are seeing, to a [br]certain degree,

1:11:20.510,1:11:25.187
this revival of nationalism in Russia, [br]by people who are...

1:11:25.187,1:11:26.858
and maybe ex-generals,

1:11:26.858,1:11:31.077
maybe some other ex-intelligence[br]figures from KGB era

1:11:31.420,1:11:35.576
that are seeing the fact that their [br]mother nation is being surrounded.

1:11:35.576,1:11:38.295
And they are looking, maybe, at Putin,

1:11:38.295,1:11:40.402
and saying,[br]"How could you let this happen?"

1:11:40.402,1:11:43.313
OK? And it's the Russian pride.

1:11:43.313,1:11:47.272
So if, for example, Putin is toppled,

1:11:47.272,1:11:53.938
and we see a more real, nationalistic [br]leader come into power,

1:11:53.938,1:11:58.485
then, sure: I would say, then it would be[br]likely to see some direct confrontation

1:11:58.485,1:12:03.692
with Russia. But as of now, with Putin, [br]with his limited woof and bark,

1:12:03.692,1:12:06.823
I would say no: it's not likely. It's not.

1:12:06.823,1:12:11.203
If it were going to happen, we would[br]have seen it even with Ukraine.

1:12:11.203,1:12:12.629
(Pearse) Yeah.

1:12:12.629,1:12:14.801
We just saw some level of posturing.

1:12:14.801,1:12:20.747
And it made him look taller, [br]and his rating went up.

1:12:20.747,1:12:22.570
But then I was reading just last week,

1:12:22.570,1:12:25.183
that it's been going gradually [br]down again.

1:12:25.183,1:12:27.168
Because it gave hope

1:12:27.168,1:12:29.928
to that nationalistic feeling [br]on the ground in Russia

1:12:29.928,1:12:32.982
that yeah, they're... our leader is[br]standing up!

1:12:32.982,1:12:34.404
We're not gonna let this happen!

1:12:34.404,1:12:35.933
But, it happened.

1:12:35.933,1:12:39.501
Really, with Ukraine, if you see, [br]it really happened.

1:12:39.501,1:12:44.836
And I think it's also important to note [br]that at the end of the day,

1:12:44.836,1:12:48.368
many of these people, while they might [br]be confrontational in public,

1:12:48.368,1:12:51.461
are essentially working towards the [br]same end goals

1:12:51.461,1:12:55.196
and, you know, the really, really [br]independent leaders...

1:12:55.196,1:13:00.479
-- people like Gaddafi or the former [br]President of the Ivory Coast --

1:13:00.479,1:13:02.059
you know, those people are taken out.

1:13:02.059,1:13:04.187
They're really... they're just murdered [br]and overthrown.

1:13:04.187,1:13:06.938
You know, any sort of independent [br]leader like that.

1:13:06.938,1:13:09.182
So you know, you do have to [br]wonder sometimes.

1:13:09.182,1:13:12.427
But I know we've been talking now [br]for quite a while,

1:13:12.427,1:13:14.311
and Tom, you've been a little quiet,

1:13:14.311,1:13:16.146
so before we wrap up, Tom,

1:13:16.146,1:13:18.658
do you have any quick questions [br]you'd like to ask Sibel?

1:13:18.658,1:13:23.008
(Tom) No, but I am thinking [br]about this subject

1:13:23.008,1:13:24.672
and this question that you've raised,

1:13:24.672,1:13:33.078
and I'm not 100 percent convinced[br]-- I'll say that much -- but...

1:13:33.078,1:13:35.917
it is an interesting question.

1:13:35.917,1:13:38.226
Maybe that would be a good place [br]to kick off

1:13:38.226,1:13:39.820
a further conversation on this,

1:13:39.820,1:13:45.117
because we've perhaps got to the end[br]of our conversation

1:13:45.117,1:13:46.853
about <i>The Lone Gladio</i> per se

1:13:46.853,1:13:50.501
but a lot of this stuff that's spinning [br]out from this conversation, I think,

1:13:50.501,1:13:54.459
is certainly worthy of greater[br]discussion.

1:13:54.459,1:13:58.109
And I'd be interested to see [br]how our differing approaches

1:13:58.109,1:14:00.640
kind of, how we could marry[br]them together,

1:14:00.640,1:14:05.142
and at least delineate differences [br]between our perspectives on this.

1:14:05.142,1:14:07.690
so, I mean, yeah. Perhaps we'll leave [br]it here,

1:14:07.690,1:14:11.884
and hopefully in the near future, [br]the three of us can explore this again.

1:14:11.884,1:14:14.096
Because I do think we're starting [br]to, now,

1:14:14.096,1:14:16.789
get into some really[br]interesting territory.

1:14:16.789,1:14:19.663
But again, I'd like to thank both [br]of you guys

1:14:19.663,1:14:22.008
for joining me today. It was a [br]wonderful conversation.

1:14:22.008,1:14:24.600
(Pearse) And quickly, Sibel: [br]where can they find

1:14:24.600,1:14:26.893
<i>The Lone Gladio</i>? Where can [br]they find your work?

1:14:26.893,1:14:31.717
(Sibel) Sure. <i>The Lone Gladio</i> is [br]available via Amazon,

1:14:31.717,1:14:35.067
both print book and also [br]electronically through Kindle.

1:14:35.067,1:14:38.507
but people who don't want to [br]deal with Amazon,

1:14:38.507,1:14:43.748
they can purchase it directly from [br]the website TheLoneGladio.com

1:14:43.748,1:14:46.280
and they can have, even, signed copies.

1:14:46.280,1:14:51.053
So those are the two top places, [br]and easiest places,

1:14:51.053,1:14:55.267
for people to obtain, purchase,[br]<i>The Lone Gladio</i>

1:14:55.267,1:14:58.653
But even if they just go to [br]TheLoneGladio.com website,

1:14:58.653,1:15:00.733
they will see the links from there

1:15:00.733,1:15:03.507
to all the other channels where[br]they can get the book,

1:15:03.507,1:15:05.260
either electronically or in print.

1:15:05.260,1:15:07.219
(Pearse) And Tom, I'm sure that almost [br]all my listeners

1:15:07.219,1:15:09.178
know where to find your work,

1:15:09.178,1:15:11.137
but we've always got new people coming,

1:15:11.137,1:15:13.180
so please, tell everybody about [br]your website,

1:15:13.180,1:15:15.557
your podcast, and your novel as well.

1:15:15.557,1:15:18.103
Or -- excuse me! -- not a novel:[br]book. [laughs]

1:15:18.103,1:15:22.765
(Tom) Sure. I mean, my main website [br]is SpyCulture.com,

1:15:22.765,1:15:28.388
and on there you'll find links to my book [br]about 7/7, <i>Secret Spies and 7/7.</i>

1:15:28.388,1:15:32.561
I also do an about fortnightly podcast[br]called <i>ClandesTime</i>

1:15:32.561,1:15:34.563
that's available on <i>Spy Culture</i>[br]and on YouTube.

1:15:34.563,1:15:37.424
So anybody who hasn't already [br]checked that out, please do.

1:15:37.424,1:15:42.375
(Pearse) All right. well, thank you both, [br]again, for joining,

1:15:42.375,1:15:42.940
and I hope we can pick this up[br]again soon.

1:15:42.940,1:15:44.984
But thanks so much.

1:15:44.984,1:15:46.953
(Sibel) Thank you. Sorry for dominating[br]the conversation.

1:15:46.953,1:15:50.285
So next time, I really want to hear [br]your perspectives on this.

1:15:50.285,1:15:51.951
As I said, with some of the answers,

1:15:51.951,1:15:54.917
I have had only hypotheses [br]or some theories to offer,

1:15:54.917,1:15:56.634
not as concrete fact,

1:15:56.634,1:15:58.629
so I would love to get your opinions [br]on that.

1:15:58.629,1:16:00.441
And also, thank you for the opportunity.

1:16:00.441,1:16:02.120
it was great, thank you.

1:16:02.120,1:16:05.963
(Tom) Thank you Pierce, and thank you [br]Sibel. it's been great talking to both of you.

1:16:05.963,1:16:08.858
(Pearse) OK, everybody.

1:16:08.858,1:16:11.753
So, that about does it for this episode of <i>Porkins Policy Radio.</i>

1:16:11.753,1:16:14.650
Thank you all for joining me and[br]listening to this podcast.

1:16:14.650,1:16:17.031
And if you enjoyed this and you'd [br]like to hear some more,

1:16:17.031,1:16:20.762
then please visit [br]PorkinsPolicyReview.wordpress.com

1:16:20.762,1:16:23.974
And there you can find all of the[br]podcasts free for download.

1:16:23.974,1:16:26.510
you can, of course, find them on [br]YouTube also,

1:16:26.510,1:16:30.785
and if you use YouTube, then please, [br]please subscribe to my YouTube channel,

1:16:30.785,1:16:35.260
which is YouTube.com/1138porkins

1:16:35.260,1:16:39.551
And also definitely follow me on [br]Twitter @porkinspolicy,

1:16:39.551,1:16:42.642
and you can also follow the podcast [br]through the RSS feed,

1:16:42.642,1:16:44.864
and also through email blasts as well.

1:16:44.864,1:16:49.390
And I just have a few quick programming [br]notes before I completely sign off.

1:16:49.390,1:16:53.911
Just want to thank everybody who listened[br]to the second episode

1:16:53.911,1:16:55.512
of me and Christoph Germann's [br]new podcast,

1:16:55.512,1:16:57.691
<i>Porkins Great Game</i>.

1:16:57.691,1:17:02.463
We've gotten tremendous feedback [br]and lots of hits on that episode.

1:17:02.463,1:17:07.089
So I'm really grateful for everybody[br]that's been listening to it

1:17:07.089,1:17:10.485
and putting it up on social media, [br]and whatnot like that.

1:17:10.485,1:17:11.574
And it's been really great.

1:17:11.574,1:17:15.449
And again, you can find that on the [br]main site, as well as on YouTube.

1:17:15.449,1:17:18.062
And I just want to say one other [br]quick thing.

1:17:18.062,1:17:19.859
And I know that I made a promise...

1:17:19.859,1:17:22.936
I believe it was actually the last time[br]I spoke to Sibel

1:17:22.936,1:17:27.512
that I would have two episodes up [br]on <i>Porkins Policy Radio</i>.

1:17:27.512,1:17:29.132
One dealing with Scientology,

1:17:29.132,1:17:31.547
and one dealing with Jim Jones [br]and The People's Temple.

1:17:31.547,1:17:34.450
Well, I just want to say that I have [br]not forgotten about that,

1:17:34.450,1:17:38.065
and I have been doing quite a bit[br]of research on Jim Jones.

1:17:38.065,1:17:40.206
And I think that'll probably be [br]the episode,

1:17:40.206,1:17:43.467
the next episode for [br]<i>Porkins Policy Radio.</i>

1:17:43.467,1:17:48.095
So definitely stay tuned, and look out [br]for that one on the horizon. [br]

1:17:48.095,1:17:52.805
And again, we will be speaking with [br]both Sibel and Tom again very soon,

1:17:52.805,1:17:56.173
and expand on some of the issues that [br]we discussed, again, in this podcast.

1:17:56.173,1:17:58.794
So with that, I just want to [br]thank everybody.

1:17:58.794,1:18:02.749
And again, if you liked this podcast, [br]please tell a friend.

1:18:02.749,1:18:06.105
Email it to someone, put it up on [br]your social media, whatever:

1:18:06.105,1:18:10.527
just help spread the word, because... and[br]I just want to say, the fans have been...

1:18:10.527,1:18:12.387
the listeners are just fantastic.

1:18:12.387,1:18:14.725
Everyone has been promoting the show,

1:18:14.725,1:18:16.550
and it's really fantastic.

1:18:16.550,1:18:18.790
And a quick shout-out to James Corbett,

1:18:18.790,1:18:23.298
who included this podcast and me [br]and Christoph's podcast

1:18:23.298,1:18:29.390
as one of the podcasts that he listens[br]to in his Reddit AMA.

1:18:29.390,1:18:31.273
So that was very cool and very awesome,

1:18:31.273,1:18:32.705
and thanks so much, James.

1:18:32.705,1:18:34.708
So, I think we're there, we're gonna[br]leave it,

1:18:34.708,1:18:35.914
and I will be talking to you very soon.

1:18:35.914,1:18:54.663
♪ [ Philip Glass – “Mishima/Closing”[br](<i>Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters</i>) ] ♪

1:21:20.544,1:21:25.163
[Subtitled by "Adjuvant"][br][CC-BY 4.0]