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♪ [ Philip Glass – “Runaway Horses”
(<i>Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters</i>) ] ♪

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OK, everybody. Welcome back to
another episode of <i>Porkins Policy Radio.</i>

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As always, I am your host Pearse Redmond,

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and you can find this podcast 
and all the other podcasts

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by going to porkinspolicyreview.wordpress.com

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Well, today we have a very special episode,

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and we have two very special guests.

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And we're going to be discussing <i>The Lone Gladio</i>,

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Sibel Edmond's new novel, in greater detail,

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As well as exploring some of the 
intricacies

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of Gladio Plan B in general.

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And joining me for this epic
roundtable discussion on this

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is, of course, our good friend and 
frequent guest on the show Tom Secker

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from SpyCulture.com and the 
host of <i>ClandesTime</i>.

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And also joining us all the way 
on the West Coast

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in what has become the newest state 
to legalize marijuana

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is our wonderful, wonderful guest 
who's been on the show recently

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and that is, of course, the creator 
and founder of BoilingFrogsPost.com

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and the author of <i>The Lone Gladio</i>, 
Sibel Edmonds

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So Sibel, Tom: Thank you for joining 
me on the show today.

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(Tom) Hi, thank you.

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(Sibel) Good to be talking to you both.

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(Pearse) Yeah, absolutely. So, basically 
me and Tom just wanted to ask you

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about a million more questions 
that we didn't get to

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when we both interviewed you 
for our respective shows

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So... and I guess... Tom, why don't you 
start the conversation off?

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(Tom) Sure. Well, I only have...

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Well, I managed to whittle it down to two

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that I didn't get to ask you before,
Sibel.

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Because we were talking about,
essentially,

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how your book <i>The Lone Gladio</i>

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Subverts an awful lot of the 
normal spy fiction.

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And that's because it's doing 
something vastly different.

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It's, in many ways, an attack on 
the security state.

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Rather than some kind of defense of it

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or glorification of it, which is
what you normally get.

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And we picked up on... sorry, 
on various different things.

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And there were a couple that I 
didn't get around to asking you about.

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So the first one is this question of 
rogue agents.

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Because in the book, the protagonist, 
the titular Lone Gladio, Greg,

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He goes rogue and wreaks this havoc

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against his former colleagues, 
his former paymasters

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And normally in spy culture,

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the rogue agent is portrayed
as the bad apple, right?

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The exception to the normal 
state of affairs.

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Sort of they're the bad people
within a good institution.

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That's the usual picture you get.

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Whereas in your book, in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>

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Greg is a... I hesitate to say 
a <i>good</i> apple...

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[laughter] but he's somewhat good. 
He does do good things.

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He does protect people
that need protecting

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and that deserve to be protected.

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Things like that.

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Some of his...

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some of the torture sequences, 
one might debate. [laughter]

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[xx] how good these things are

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but nonetheless, he is a somewhat 
good apple, if you like

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within the bad institution.

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So once again, this is a 
complete inversion

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and reinvention of a stereotype 
in spy stories.

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And yet you've said in other interviews

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that Greg is somewhat based on real people

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real black operatives that 
you've met along the way

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and had conversations with

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and to some extent got to know what 
kind of people they are.

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So my question -- and I hope this
isn't too cheeky --

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is how realistic is Greg?

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How realistic is it that one day,

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there might be a real Lone Gladio?

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(Sibel) Well, you may call it

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to some degree, a wishful thinking.

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Because we haven't had a real-life
Greg MacPherson

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Despite all the publicized, many of them totally scripted

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supposed CIA whistleblowers

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or people who have turned against 
the CIA to a certain degree.

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We have never had a real Greg from
the Agency

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from the CIA

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And also, to answer your question,

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the first part of your question,

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my feeling and my knowledge,

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based on my knowledge, what I have seen,

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has been that many of these 
mass-market books

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the spy thrillers involving the Agency,

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they are the ones that always
subvert the reality

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meaning, what really these people do

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and the culture of the agency

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who the agency actually serves,

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it's not the American people.

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And it's not even the United States 
government.

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So it goes to the heart of the Deep State.

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Those people who benefit from 
the Agency, from the CIA

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and whom the Agency really serves.

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So all the books that we see out there,

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the Hollywood-made movies,

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they subvert the facts, the reality

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of what the Agency is about.

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And because of this, all average Americans

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or even people in Europe,

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most people, they have

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a complete false notion of

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what the CIA is all about.

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Now, this is actually to a lesser degree

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or even, maybe, not even in any degree

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in countries that have been the targets

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of all these types of CIA, 
the Agency's, operations.

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Because if you go and talk with people
in countries like Iran,

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the 1953 coup with Mossadeq
being taken out

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and Shah being placed in there.

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If you go to some of the Central 
American, South American nations

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because they have, these countries

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-- in Middle East, in South and
Central America --

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since they have had first-hand
experience, real experience

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of what CIA actually does,

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they are not under this false notion.

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And you can engage in some
really heated conversation

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with people in these countries

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with notions that they put forward

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that are far more realistic, factual,

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than, let's say, when you talk with
people in the United States.

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So I would put it this way:

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I would say I subverted the 
subverted notion

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of the Agency and the Agency people.

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And you're absolutely right about Greg.

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It's hard to call him a good person,

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or the good apple,

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but the book and the characters
in the book

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they go into the heart of what 
the Agency is about

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what kind of people

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are selected to be operatives.

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And of course, the fictional aspect being

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all it takes is one or two real good 
apples to actually,

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truly expose what the Agency's about

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and the operations, their objectives, 
and who they serve.

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And we haven't had, to date,

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such a good apple.

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And it's really, really amazing.

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For me, it's really amazing.

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But then, on the other hand,

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it may go to this whole notion of

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the chicken or the egg.

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In this way: that... well, to start with,

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the poeple they select for these jobs

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the operatives -- I'm not talking about 
the administrative people or analysts --

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to start with are the kind of people 
who would never

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become those good apples that
they would step out

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and go all the way into exposing

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what the Agency is about.

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I mean, this fact applies to 
a lesser degree

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to agencies like, more law enforcement,
the FBI

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even though I'm not saying that 
they are good,

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but we have had whistleblowers, 
or some good apples,

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that have really exposed some 
major black deeds

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performed or implemented 
by these agencies.

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But not really with the CIA.

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And some people may say,

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"Oh, here we have had this agents, 
or that agents,"

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and if you look at these so-called, 
supposed whistleblowers,

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you see how controlled 
heir supposed exposure

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or exposing of the agency is.

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First of all, you get to see them

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within the mainstream media, frequently.

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Which tells you right there that they are

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not exposing the Agency.

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They would never get a chance

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to be before millions of audience 
within the mainstream media

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putting forth some factual... 
or some facts

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that expose the true nature of the Agency.

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They would never, ever be given 
that kind of a chance.

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It doesn't happen.

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It has never happend.

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It really hasn't happened.

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You'll see some people who would 
talk about how

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the Agency is, by doing this 
particular thing,

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in this particular way...

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or people who are selling the notion 
of, yes, there are a few bad apples

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within the Agencies who are doing 
this, within the management.

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But this is similar to what people call

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the controlled opposition.

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It is tightly framed to further, still

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the Agency's legitimacy -- which is,
they are not legitimate.

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And then within that tight frame,

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put forth some very shallow criticism
of some agencies.

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And then, later on,

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if you see, it's usually blamed
on a President

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or a particular party

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rather than going to the Deep State

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whom the Agency is there 
to protect and further their agenda,

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not some puppet President, or some party.

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Or... it boils down to some director 
not being good, being the bad apple.

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I mean, these are all the false notions

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that have been popularized 
by the mainstream media.

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By all the books that subvert

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what the Agency is about

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And alternative media as well,

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the so-called "alternative"media.

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A lot of them, they parrot the 
same notion,

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-- maybe they put it forth in a 
more heated manner --

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but in the end, they are actually

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repeating the same storyline.

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Within the storyline, some plots 
are maybe targeted and criticized,

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but not the story itself.

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Well, I mean, you're absolutely 
right there, I think.

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And when you were talking about
how this was...

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whenever you do get any kind 
of significant revelation,

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it's always wrapped up in a
"Oh, well, this was just"

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"the policy of this particular
White House"

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"Or it was because there was 
a bad director of the CIA at that point"

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"or..." there's never any kind of sense

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of this being a fundamental, 
institutional problem

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at... a fundamental problem 
in the character

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of the CIA and other similar institutions.

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And I was thinking, they've even tried
this with the original Gladio.

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That, this was always the way it was
[xx] out there

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by anyone who was insincere.

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Was that, "Oh, this was just some 
stay-behind thing."

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"It was Cold War paranoia. 
Nothing really came of it."

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And they ignore that second phase

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of the original Gladio

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where it became this very aggressive means

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of carrying out false-flag terrorism.

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And they sort of pretend like

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that never actually happened.

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They say, oh, this was some...

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oh, we were all worried about 
Stalin or whatever.

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It's just written off in that way, 
the original Gladio.

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(Tom) Yeah, sure.

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So, I mean, that's one of the things,
I suppose,

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that I loved about <i>The Lone Gladio</i>

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is that, not only are you kind of throwing
all of that bullshit out the window,

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you're actually talking about 
more or less the present day.

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I mean, it's set about ten years ago, OK,

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but it's the modern era. 
It's the War on Terror era.

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(Sibel) Absolutely.

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(Tom) So you're cutting right to the heart

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of the modern-day reality

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and my other question is kind of 
related to that.

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And I'm not in any way trying to get you

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to contradict yourself here.

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But we do also have the question
of blowback.

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Because in some ways, that's what Greg

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and his crusade of violence represents.

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He is, to some extent,

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the unintended consequence

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of these black operations

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Both in terms of his motivation

246
00:13:30,375 --> 00:13:33,871
-- his wife is killed, essentially, 
accidentally, or at least carelessly:

247
00:13:33,871 --> 00:13:35,466
they weren't <i>trying</i> to kill her --

248
00:13:35,466 --> 00:13:36,741
And yet that's his...

249
00:13:36,741 --> 00:13:39,452
that's at least the point at which 
he then decides

250
00:13:39,452 --> 00:13:41,955
it's time to wreak havoc against them.

251
00:13:41,955 --> 00:13:46,262
I know your opinion of blowback 
is roughly the same as mine,

252
00:13:46,262 --> 00:13:47,968
that, again, it's one of these things
that's hung out there

253
00:13:47,968 --> 00:13:50,888
to cover up something that would 
otherwise be quite damaging.

254
00:13:50,888 --> 00:13:54,912
Sometimes black operations do go bad.

255
00:13:54,912 --> 00:13:56,864
And unintended things happen

256
00:13:56,864 --> 00:14:00,914
but in general terms, blowback is 
just one of those covers.

257
00:14:00,914 --> 00:14:02,265
It's a smokescreen.

258
00:14:02,265 --> 00:14:04,580
It's..."the <i>mujahideen</i> in Afghanistan"

259
00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:07,309
"evolved into al-Qaeda completely 
by accident." [laughter]

260
00:14:07,309 --> 00:14:10,783
We've sort of accidentally 
let this happen.

261
00:14:10,783 --> 00:14:12,572
We took our eye off the ball, 
blah-blah-blah.

262
00:14:12,572 --> 00:14:15,149
It's totally untrue.

263
00:14:15,149 --> 00:14:16,942
Of course, we know it's totally untrue.

264
00:14:16,942 --> 00:14:19,626
And so I found it quite fascinating,
that...

265
00:14:19,626 --> 00:14:22,723
knowing that your opinion 
of blowback is quite similar to mine

266
00:14:22,723 --> 00:14:23,918
if not the same as mine

267
00:14:23,918 --> 00:14:29,005
that this same basic idea forms

268
00:14:29,005 --> 00:14:30,550
such a central part of the story

269
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:32,139
in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>.

270
00:14:32,139 --> 00:14:37,615
I mean, it's not a sort of explanation
that you take all that seriously

271
00:14:37,615 --> 00:14:39,112
for real events, is it?

272
00:14:39,112 --> 00:14:42,815
But there, again, I suppose you're
being quite subversive.

273
00:14:42,815 --> 00:14:47,409
Because instead of using blowback as a
way of covering up for black operations,

274
00:14:47,409 --> 00:14:52,140
this story of Greg's retribution 
against the Company

275
00:14:52,140 --> 00:14:56,252
is actually his sort of means of 
exposing them.

276
00:14:56,252 --> 00:14:59,924
That's, I suppose, what... the overall 
point of this book was

277
00:14:59,924 --> 00:15:01,588
was to try and expose the reality

278
00:15:01,588 --> 00:15:02,799
and in doing so, that meant you simply

279
00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:06,114
had to subvert the usual way in which 
these things worked

280
00:15:06,114 --> 00:15:09,320
and therefore had to subvert 
even the concept of blowback.

281
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:17,022
I suppose... OK, my question: is this 
something that you did consciously,

282
00:15:17,022 --> 00:15:22,215
or am I letting the literary analyst 
inside me get a bit carried away here?

283
00:15:22,215 --> 00:15:26,795
(Sibel) Um, no. Absolutely, absolutely. 
First of all, you're absolutely right:

284
00:15:26,795 --> 00:15:30,248
it is based on the notion of blowback

285
00:15:30,248 --> 00:15:33,358
and in this case, it's a <i>real</i> blowback.

286
00:15:33,358 --> 00:15:36,203
And that is: unintended consequences.

287
00:15:36,203 --> 00:15:41,579
Because, as we know, Greg's woman

288
00:15:41,579 --> 00:15:45,418
was killed purely accidentally.

289
00:15:45,418 --> 00:15:49,787
So that was not designed by the powers

290
00:15:49,787 --> 00:15:54,467
to get this reaction and this outcome

291
00:15:54,467 --> 00:15:58,800
that is brought forth by Greg.
Because he starts the mission.

292
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,165
And there are two things that 
are happening.

293
00:16:01,165 --> 00:16:03,730
There are two things that are 
motivating Greg.

294
00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:08,388
One, of course, we are talking 
about this Great Terror Event in 2001.

295
00:16:08,388 --> 00:16:10,571
In the US.

296
00:16:10,571 --> 00:16:16,920
And he was outside that highly-
compartmentalized operation

297
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:22,328
to execute this, this false-flag operation
in the home front

298
00:16:22,328 --> 00:16:25,073
in the United States, on the US soil.

299
00:16:25,073 --> 00:16:30,276
And he realizes this as it happens,
and it's reported

300
00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:33,160
by the tentacles of the Gladios.

301
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:41,667
This is the <i>CNN</i> and <i>BBC</i>, or <i>BCB</i>, 
as they are listed there

302
00:16:41,667 --> 00:16:43,304
it may be a little bit cheesy [laughter]

303
00:16:43,304 --> 00:16:44,337
But... so...

304
00:16:44,337 --> 00:16:51,389
That is when it makes Greg stop and think

305
00:16:51,389 --> 00:16:54,920
and the blowback doesn't begin here

306
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,115
but the roots, or the seeds, are 
planted there.

307
00:16:59,115 --> 00:17:04,137
Because he is, himself, a highly unusual,

308
00:17:04,137 --> 00:17:05,766
eccentric character

309
00:17:05,766 --> 00:17:10,914
with some dark, to a certain degree 
sad background

310
00:17:10,914 --> 00:17:12,847
that I don't get into in this book.

311
00:17:12,847 --> 00:17:18,135
It will, hopefully, once I write and if I 
write the second book

312
00:17:18,135 --> 00:17:21,585
will get more into Greg's childhood

313
00:17:21,585 --> 00:17:27,870
and what started his intense hatred 
of Russians and everything Russian.

314
00:17:27,870 --> 00:17:31,011
And that's one of the repeating
themes there.

315
00:17:31,011 --> 00:17:33,347
And that has been one of the driving force

316
00:17:33,347 --> 00:17:35,537
for a lot of things that he has 
done in life.

317
00:17:35,537 --> 00:17:40,802
But in all this, this... for this
operation, false-flag

318
00:17:40,802 --> 00:17:44,651
taking place in the US, that begins
the process.

319
00:17:44,651 --> 00:17:49,311
It plants the seed, and then the 
catalyst, of course,

320
00:17:49,311 --> 00:17:53,272
two years later, becomes his
woman accidentally

321
00:17:53,272 --> 00:17:56,695
taken out by the Agency

322
00:17:56,695 --> 00:17:59,927
So that basically triggers
all these actions.

323
00:17:59,927 --> 00:18:01,784
And again, that was unintended.

324
00:18:01,784 --> 00:18:05,178
So that's a true blowback right there.

325
00:18:05,178 --> 00:18:09,488
And you used the word "intended," 
and that is very, very important.

326
00:18:09,488 --> 00:18:11,531
It's the key word, because

327
00:18:11,531 --> 00:18:15,347
for a blowback to be really a blowback,

328
00:18:15,347 --> 00:18:18,640
the consequences have to be unintended.

329
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,978
And with these operations themselves,

330
00:18:22,978 --> 00:18:25,377
the black ops, the false-flag operations,

331
00:18:25,377 --> 00:18:30,519
the recruitment and the training 
of these terrorists,

332
00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:35,059
in this case we had a black widow 
who's a Chechen,

333
00:18:35,059 --> 00:18:40,377
who's Chechen, in Azerbaijan

334
00:18:40,377 --> 00:18:45,804
and those operations are the
false-flag operations

335
00:18:45,804 --> 00:18:49,018
with <i>intended</i> consequences.

336
00:18:49,018 --> 00:18:51,803
With <i>intended consequences</i>

337
00:18:51,803 --> 00:18:55,938
therefore, anything that results 
from those operations

338
00:18:55,938 --> 00:18:59,349
cannot in any way be considered blowback.

339
00:18:59,349 --> 00:19:02,534
Because when you look at, let's say

340
00:19:02,534 --> 00:19:04,842
a certain group being put in place,

341
00:19:04,842 --> 00:19:08,356
trained, armed, directed, managed,

342
00:19:08,356 --> 00:19:11,754
to execute a certain terror operation,

343
00:19:11,754 --> 00:19:15,116
whether it's in Russia or if it's
in Syria,

344
00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:16,645
and if it's in Iraq,

345
00:19:16,645 --> 00:19:19,236
executing that terror operation

346
00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:24,398
is only a part of the intended results,

347
00:19:24,398 --> 00:19:29,016
the objectives, the means to get
to the objectives.

348
00:19:29,016 --> 00:19:33,498
It's not all of consequences 
taking place afterwards:

349
00:19:33,498 --> 00:19:37,034
those are the intended consequences.

350
00:19:37,034 --> 00:19:39,302
So, let me give you an example.

351
00:19:39,302 --> 00:19:43,943
For example, let's say when you
train the Chechens,

352
00:19:43,943 --> 00:19:45,384
a group of Chechens,

353
00:19:45,384 --> 00:19:47,391
and arm them, and drug them,

354
00:19:47,391 --> 00:19:51,223
and indoctrinate them, and manage them,

355
00:19:51,223 --> 00:19:55,062
and say, "You're gonna go and blow 
up this in this part of Russia,"

356
00:19:55,062 --> 00:19:55,961
for example.

357
00:19:55,961 --> 00:20:01,134
Well, the first result of it is, OK, 
this horrible terror incident happens

358
00:20:01,134 --> 00:20:02,658
in that particular city

359
00:20:02,658 --> 00:20:05,807
or targeting this particular school, 
et cetera.

360
00:20:05,807 --> 00:20:11,161
Now, what happens next is what 
is the intended consequence.

361
00:20:11,161 --> 00:20:14,604
And that is to get Russia to react to it,

362
00:20:14,604 --> 00:20:17,339
and to react to it, hopefully, 
dramatically.

363
00:20:17,339 --> 00:20:23,099
Emotionally, and start rounding up
hundreds of Chechens,

364
00:20:23,099 --> 00:20:28,278
putting them in jail, or actually going 
and shooting 150 Chechens, right?

365
00:20:28,278 --> 00:20:32,465
And that, in return, turning around 
and causing this...

366
00:20:32,465 --> 00:20:33,952
more attacks over there.

367
00:20:33,952 --> 00:20:37,950
Then, you start getting closer and closer

368
00:20:37,950 --> 00:20:39,865
to the intended consequences.

369
00:20:39,865 --> 00:20:42,511
The intended consequence in executing

370
00:20:42,511 --> 00:20:45,308
this particular terror operation,
this part of it

371
00:20:45,308 --> 00:20:46,673
where something is blown up

372
00:20:46,673 --> 00:20:48,649
and you have 100 people dying,

373
00:20:48,649 --> 00:20:50,454
is not the first intent,

374
00:20:50,454 --> 00:20:52,671
the most important objective here.

375
00:20:52,671 --> 00:20:58,579
That is a way to get the following 
five or six consequent events,

376
00:20:58,579 --> 00:21:00,238
which are intended,

377
00:21:00,238 --> 00:21:02,982
to cause that chaos,

378
00:21:02,982 --> 00:21:07,169
to cause that certain sect going 
after another sect

379
00:21:07,169 --> 00:21:11,698
to cause for that to actually become
even more,

380
00:21:11,698 --> 00:21:13,652
explode even further

381
00:21:13,652 --> 00:21:16,382
and affect a neighboring country.

382
00:21:16,382 --> 00:21:18,928
Let's say, if it's in Syria, something
is happening

383
00:21:18,928 --> 00:21:20,937
with Jordan, and then

384
00:21:20,937 --> 00:21:22,304
this happens in the border,

385
00:21:22,304 --> 00:21:24,909
and you have, let's say, maybe half 
a million refugees

386
00:21:24,909 --> 00:21:25,978
getting to this country.

387
00:21:25,978 --> 00:21:27,828
Those in the media,

388
00:21:27,828 --> 00:21:32,375
and then these so-called CIA analysts 
they are talking about,

389
00:21:32,375 --> 00:21:37,206
they are always represented 
and presented to the viewers

390
00:21:37,206 --> 00:21:39,613
as the unintended consequences.

391
00:21:39,613 --> 00:21:40,804
I mean, they don't even say, "

392
00:21:40,804 --> 00:21:42,915
"OK, we did help blow this thing up."

393
00:21:42,915 --> 00:21:44,847
But let's say they armed it,
and we didn't know.

394
00:21:44,847 --> 00:21:46,812
The usual storyline.

395
00:21:46,812 --> 00:21:49,574
"And look, all these things happen, 
and they're horrifying"

396
00:21:49,574 --> 00:21:52,796
while all along the intended consequences

397
00:21:52,796 --> 00:21:57,377
are events that take place long after, 
let's say,

398
00:21:57,377 --> 00:21:59,054
a building being blown up

399
00:21:59,054 --> 00:22:00,834
or 50 people getting killed.

400
00:22:00,834 --> 00:22:03,335
And that's what we are talking about.

401
00:22:03,335 --> 00:22:08,012
And in no way those can be considered
as blowback

402
00:22:08,012 --> 00:22:10,144
because they are absolutely intended.

403
00:22:10,144 --> 00:22:13,759
Because when that chaos is taking place,

404
00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:16,477
then the next things comes as 
a result of that,

405
00:22:16,477 --> 00:22:19,420
and then these other two countries 
get involved,

406
00:22:19,420 --> 00:22:23,264
and as a result of that, let's say,
another country which says,

407
00:22:23,264 --> 00:22:26,108
"You know what? Now we are really going 
to, let's say,"

408
00:22:26,108 --> 00:22:29,333
"put our candidacy to become a member
of NATO."

409
00:22:29,333 --> 00:22:32,000
And as a result of that, this and this 
happens.

410
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,519
It's like a chess board.

411
00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:38,594
And you want to look at the move 
that's gonna come

412
00:22:38,594 --> 00:22:40,655
eight moves after the first move

413
00:22:40,655 --> 00:22:45,615
in order to go and execute, or achieve 
what you want to achieve.

414
00:22:45,615 --> 00:22:48,312
Not the first, initial things that 
take place

415
00:22:48,312 --> 00:22:50,169
with the first or the second move.

416
00:22:50,169 --> 00:22:53,390
And for those to be considered blowback,

417
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:55,073
is the fiction that, unfortunately,

418
00:22:55,073 --> 00:22:58,358
almost everyone -- except for you guys

419
00:22:58,358 --> 00:23:03,660
and a handful of other who I call 
the Irate Minority

420
00:23:03,660 --> 00:23:06,521
real informed people, people don't know.

421
00:23:06,521 --> 00:23:10,192
And I always try to give these
examples and say,

422
00:23:10,192 --> 00:23:14,197
if a certain action, modus operandi

423
00:23:14,197 --> 00:23:17,053
results in unintended consequences...

424
00:23:17,053 --> 00:23:23,111
Let's say this was talked about
a lot after 9/11, saying...

425
00:23:23,111 --> 00:23:26,153
"Oh, well, we supported the
<i>mujahideens</i> in Afghanistan."

426
00:23:26,153 --> 00:23:30,888
"In early '80s, late '70s. We armed them, 
we trained them."

427
00:23:30,888 --> 00:23:33,975
"Including Osama Bin Laden; 
including Zawahiri."

428
00:23:33,975 --> 00:23:37,090
And then those people turned around

429
00:23:37,090 --> 00:23:39,354
and started doing these kinds of things.

430
00:23:39,354 --> 00:23:40,971
And those were unintended.

431
00:23:40,971 --> 00:23:42,696
So let's say what they say

432
00:23:42,696 --> 00:23:45,623
-- this is the Deep State; this is
the mainstream media;

433
00:23:45,623 --> 00:23:48,127
this is the so-called CIA analyst,

434
00:23:48,127 --> 00:23:53,272
these are the so-called CIA dissenters 
such as people like Mike Scheuer --

435
00:23:53,272 --> 00:23:58,993
anonymously writing the 
blowback-related stories, fiction,

436
00:23:58,993 --> 00:24:00,885
being marketed as non-fiction,

437
00:24:00,885 --> 00:24:03,395
let's say if they were true, OK?

438
00:24:03,395 --> 00:24:06,020
Well, think about it: any person,

439
00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:11,477
any sane person, average normal 
person, would say,

440
00:24:11,477 --> 00:24:14,999
"I did this, and these things came 
out of it -- unintended things."

441
00:24:14,999 --> 00:24:20,597
So, you learn a lesson: you don't go
and repeat it ten times again

442
00:24:20,597 --> 00:24:23,958
after seeing these supposed
unintended consequences.

443
00:24:23,958 --> 00:24:27,431
But on the other hand, if you look 
at the reality

444
00:24:27,431 --> 00:24:31,051
and say, OK, for the past 30 or 40 years,

445
00:24:31,051 --> 00:24:36,018
how we repeat exactly the same script,
the same scenario,

446
00:24:36,018 --> 00:24:37,887
the same operations,

447
00:24:37,887 --> 00:24:41,998
and getting the similar kind of blowback,

448
00:24:41,998 --> 00:24:44,885
the reactions, eight steps later,

449
00:24:44,885 --> 00:24:47,861
then you have to stop and say,


450
00:24:47,861 --> 00:24:50,645
"Well, really, is that unintended?"

451
00:24:50,645 --> 00:24:52,607
Because as the saying goes,

452
00:24:52,607 --> 00:24:54,123
"Fool me once, shame on you."

453
00:24:54,123 --> 00:24:56,028
"Fool me twice, shame on me."

454
00:24:56,028 --> 00:24:58,155
I mean, you can't keep doing 
the same thing.

455
00:24:58,155 --> 00:25:01,126
You do that with <i>mujahideen</i>: 
"Oops! Blowback!"

456
00:25:01,126 --> 00:25:03,440
Then you go and you get these cells

457
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,687
you take then to Turkey from Syria

458
00:25:05,687 --> 00:25:07,642
-- These cells from Syria --

459
00:25:07,642 --> 00:25:09,081
You train them, you arm them,

460
00:25:09,081 --> 00:25:11,622
you put them there, back into Syria.

461
00:25:11,622 --> 00:25:13,930
You do the same thing with another cell:

462
00:25:13,930 --> 00:25:16,470
take them to Jordan, train and arm them,
put there,

463
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:18,739
knowing that, OK, they have...

464
00:25:18,739 --> 00:25:22,790
or selecting, intentionally, extremists.

465
00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:25,056
And then events take place, and say,

466
00:25:25,056 --> 00:25:27,776
"Oops! That was unintended."

467
00:25:27,776 --> 00:25:31,961
"Because our intention was getting 
this, really, just like <i>mujahideen</i>"

468
00:25:31,961 --> 00:25:35,953
And all the other groups that 
we have used,

469
00:25:35,953 --> 00:25:38,352
we consider them the freedom fighters.

470
00:25:38,352 --> 00:25:44,948
For how long the United States 
media glorified the <i>mujahideen</i>

471
00:25:44,948 --> 00:25:51,083
That includes Osama bin Laden as 
their commando, Zawahiri, in the '80s.

472
00:25:51,083 --> 00:25:55,594
If you go and get the archives
-- the newspaper articles, OK? --

473
00:25:55,594 --> 00:25:58,582
all the clips from <i>NPR</i>, from <i>CNN</i>,

474
00:25:58,582 --> 00:26:01,723
what you see is, they were glorified. 


475
00:26:01,723 --> 00:26:05,563
Nobody even put anything like 
"Islamists" or "extremists"

476
00:26:05,563 --> 00:26:09,275
or any of those adjectives in
association with these people.

477
00:26:09,275 --> 00:26:10,999
They were the great freedom fighters. 


478
00:26:10,999 --> 00:26:15,418
They made Americans, all of them, 
cheer for <i>mujahideen</i>.

479
00:26:15,418 --> 00:26:19,975
The fact that they had... they were 
stoning women, or doing...

480
00:26:19,975 --> 00:26:22,949
which they did, during those 
years as well.

481
00:26:22,949 --> 00:26:26,301
They were never exposed,
because those were irrelevant.

482
00:26:26,301 --> 00:26:29,425
They were the glorified freedom fighters.

483
00:26:29,425 --> 00:26:31,479
Liberation armies, right?

484
00:26:31,479 --> 00:26:33,752
And then, lo and behold:

485
00:26:33,752 --> 00:26:39,109
one day they all turned to these awful, 
ferocious terrorists and al-Qaeda.

486
00:26:39,109 --> 00:26:43,179
And their commandos became 
the top terrorists in the world,

487
00:26:43,179 --> 00:26:47,754
with these extreme belief 
system and religious...

488
00:26:47,754 --> 00:26:52,430
all those things happen: "Oops!" 
Those were like, "Ooh, we were caught"

489
00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:56,786
"and we were shocked; 
and we were so surprised"

490
00:26:56,786 --> 00:26:57,802
-- supposedly.

491
00:26:57,802 --> 00:26:59,918
Again, we are doing the same thing.

492
00:26:59,918 --> 00:27:01,260
We have been doing the same things.

493
00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:04,423
Take these people, arm them,
train them, manage them.

494
00:27:04,423 --> 00:27:06,878
And then later come and say, "Oops!"

495
00:27:06,878 --> 00:27:08,514
"Look at what these people are doing."

496
00:27:08,514 --> 00:27:09,919
"They are extremists. We did not..."

497
00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:13,534
"We did not account for these 
kinds of reaction,"

498
00:27:13,534 --> 00:27:15,689
"and these kinds of practices 
by these people."

499
00:27:15,689 --> 00:27:19,932
So therefore, in no way these operations

500
00:27:19,932 --> 00:27:22,102
and the consequences of the operations,

501
00:27:22,102 --> 00:27:25,032
can be considered blowback.

502
00:27:25,032 --> 00:27:29,111
And then, the lastly, the most
important thing to look at is:

503
00:27:29,111 --> 00:27:33,613
Who benefits? Who benefits
from these operations?

504
00:27:33,613 --> 00:27:35,815
And the intended consequences.

505
00:27:35,815 --> 00:27:39,701
Well, whoever is the puppet President

506
00:27:39,701 --> 00:27:42,426
--whether it's Obama or Reagan --

507
00:27:42,426 --> 00:27:45,532
they don't really, personally benefit 
from these.

508
00:27:45,532 --> 00:27:46,654
It's not about the President.

509
00:27:46,654 --> 00:27:51,035
it's not about a political party, 
or the Republican Party:

510
00:27:51,035 --> 00:27:53,138
because of that, they got rich 
or they became powerful.

511
00:27:53,138 --> 00:27:56,840
No. So that... those are not the
beneficiaries.

512
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,591
So the people on the ground,

513
00:27:58,591 --> 00:28:03,015
people in Syria, or people in Afghanistan,

514
00:28:03,015 --> 00:28:03,900
they're not the beneficiaries.

515
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:05,314
their homes have been wrecked,

516
00:28:05,314 --> 00:28:08,584
and they have lost tens of thousands 
of people.

517
00:28:08,584 --> 00:28:11,473
The American people haven't been 
better off.

518
00:28:11,473 --> 00:28:15,456
And either financially or security-wise.

519
00:28:15,456 --> 00:28:18,163
So take the American people's
interests out of the equation.

520
00:28:18,163 --> 00:28:19,980
Then you look at the map,

521
00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:21,846
you look at the situation, and say,

522
00:28:21,846 --> 00:28:25,203
who has become richer and more powerful,

523
00:28:25,203 --> 00:28:29,249
as a result of this.

524
00:28:29,249 --> 00:28:33,382
And what you see is, "Oh, look at this."

525
00:28:33,382 --> 00:28:38,467
Without these wars, the sales and
the stock prices

526
00:28:38,467 --> 00:28:40,561
for the military-industrial complex

527
00:28:40,561 --> 00:28:41,985
would just plunge. I mean,

528
00:28:41,985 --> 00:28:44,972
think about a scenario where we
don't have these wars.

529
00:28:44,972 --> 00:28:47,026
We are not engaged in Syria 
and Afghanistan,

530
00:28:47,026 --> 00:28:49,361
and with the drones in Pakistan and Yemen.

531
00:28:49,361 --> 00:28:52,775
Who are they gonna sell it to, 
these drones and bombs?

532
00:28:52,775 --> 00:28:55,654
And then, when you look at NATO,

533
00:28:55,654 --> 00:28:58,917
and you look at the militaristic 
expansion,

534
00:28:58,917 --> 00:29:01,885
and, let's say, with 9/11,

535
00:29:01,885 --> 00:29:05,779
before 9/11, how many bases did 
we have in the region?

536
00:29:05,779 --> 00:29:11,417
Whether it's in Eastern Europe, or 
you're looking at nations like Azerbaijan,

537
00:29:11,417 --> 00:29:15,557
I know they shut it down, but Manas
Airbase in Kyrgyzstan:

538
00:29:15,557 --> 00:29:17,146
look at how close they are to Russia.

539
00:29:17,146 --> 00:29:19,787
Now, what made these possible

540
00:29:19,787 --> 00:29:23,205
was the event that took place here,

541
00:29:23,205 --> 00:29:26,465
the operation that took place here 
in the United States, 9/11

542
00:29:26,465 --> 00:29:31,749
that gave us that legitimacy 
-- even though it's not legitimate --

543
00:29:31,749 --> 00:29:34,596
to say, "OK, we don't have the Cold War,"

544
00:29:34,596 --> 00:29:35,893
"We don't have Russia,"

545
00:29:35,893 --> 00:29:39,337
"but we need to expand our bases 
and take over these countries."

546
00:29:39,337 --> 00:29:41,625
Again, those countries, with our
military bases

547
00:29:41,625 --> 00:29:45,375
in order to protect ourselves again
a new enemy

548
00:29:45,375 --> 00:29:47,880
the enemy that we create, put in place,
and manage.

549
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,447
So therefore, that's when 
you're looking at

550
00:29:51,447 --> 00:29:53,538
the intended consequences

551
00:29:53,538 --> 00:29:55,221
War, and who benefits from that.

552
00:29:55,221 --> 00:30:00,444
How many military bases Russia 
has put in place,

553
00:30:00,444 --> 00:30:02,036
created, put in place,

554
00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:03,936
since the Cold War ended?

555
00:30:03,936 --> 00:30:08,418
How many military bases China 
has put in place, created

556
00:30:08,418 --> 00:30:09,996
and expanded and...

557
00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:11,246
you don't see these.

558
00:30:11,246 --> 00:30:13,178
But take a look at the United States,

559
00:30:13,178 --> 00:30:20,665
and then start putting it with the 
cover, legitimacy that they have done.

560
00:30:20,665 --> 00:30:23,573
It's always in the name of a great enemy

561
00:30:23,573 --> 00:30:25,605
that we have militaristically

562
00:30:25,605 --> 00:30:28,604
put these bases in these countries,

563
00:30:28,604 --> 00:30:31,001
taken over these countries 
and their regimes,

564
00:30:31,001 --> 00:30:32,370
or installing their regimes.

565
00:30:32,370 --> 00:30:35,300
Therefore, without these operations,

566
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:37,703
without these wars, without 
these consequences,

567
00:30:37,703 --> 00:30:38,770
we couldn't.

568
00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:42,348
So this is how you, or anyone, could start

569
00:30:42,348 --> 00:30:45,085
putting the two and two together, and say,

570
00:30:45,085 --> 00:30:50,115
my father always taught me this,
when I was six, seven, eight years old.

571
00:30:50,115 --> 00:30:52,215
He said, "Whenever you look at any wars,"

572
00:30:52,215 --> 00:30:55,188
"really look and see 
who benefits from it."

573
00:30:55,188 --> 00:30:57,401
And it's never the case of people.

574
00:30:57,401 --> 00:31:01,361
It's not ever the case of those,
let's say, American soldiers

575
00:31:01,361 --> 00:31:03,571
who are losing their lives doing these

576
00:31:03,571 --> 00:31:05,473
atrocious things overseas.

577
00:31:05,473 --> 00:31:07,081
Then who benefits/

578
00:31:07,081 --> 00:31:09,022
And once you get that answer

579
00:31:09,022 --> 00:31:11,302
and start to pinpoint the beneficiaries,

580
00:31:11,302 --> 00:31:15,875
that's when you can in-depth, 
truly understand

581
00:31:15,875 --> 00:31:21,290
what these wars, or these terror 
incidents, or these conflicts are about.

582
00:31:21,290 --> 00:31:23,762
That was a long answer. [laughter]

583
00:31:23,762 --> 00:31:28,874
(Tom) Well, yeah. And I suppose I'll 
just hand you over to Pearse here.

584
00:31:28,874 --> 00:31:31,990
Because I could pick up on a dozen
things that you just said.

585
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:36,754
Pearse, I know you wanted to kind of 
carry on on this topic of...

586
00:31:36,754 --> 00:31:37,667
(Pearse) Yeah.

587
00:31:37,667 --> 00:31:38,550
(Tom) Not necessarily blowback, but,

588
00:31:38,550 --> 00:31:40,967
consequences of where this 
thing's going.

589
00:31:40,967 --> 00:31:43,803
(Pearse) Well, yeah, I guess with
everything that you've just been saying, Sibel,

590
00:31:43,803 --> 00:31:48,370
and taking <i>The Lone Gladio</i>
as kind of a road map for how this works

591
00:31:48,370 --> 00:31:50,950
-- and again, it takes place around 2003,

592
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:53,394
so we can see how this is 
starting to form --

593
00:31:53,394 --> 00:31:56,328
but it seems that right now we're 
sort of starting

594
00:31:56,328 --> 00:31:59,053
to reach a new level, perhaps

595
00:31:59,053 --> 00:32:00,867
within the Gladio operation.

596
00:32:00,867 --> 00:32:04,203
And I guess my big question is,

597
00:32:04,203 --> 00:32:07,170
what is the end-game scenario 
for Gladio B?

598
00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:09,000
Or, even if there is one?

599
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,044
Because at some point

600
00:32:10,044 --> 00:32:12,859
-- it's already happening to a 
slight degree

601
00:32:12,859 --> 00:32:14,914
in places like Azerbaijan or Kyrgyzstan --

602
00:32:14,914 --> 00:32:18,604
we're seeing a lot of these mercenaries 
trained by NATO returning.

603
00:32:18,604 --> 00:32:22,375
Now, if one of the major goals of Gladio B

604
00:32:22,375 --> 00:32:25,686
is the exploitation of natural resources,

605
00:32:25,686 --> 00:32:26,819
like oil and gas,

606
00:32:26,819 --> 00:32:28,819
and about encircling Russia,

607
00:32:28,819 --> 00:32:31,931
how are... at what point does this 
become untenable

608
00:32:31,931 --> 00:32:36,745
if you've got these jihadis running 
all over the place?

609
00:32:36,745 --> 00:32:39,237
And kind of fleshing that out
a little bit,

610
00:32:39,237 --> 00:32:42,627
a lot of <i>The Lone Gladio</i> revolves 
around Turkey.

611
00:32:42,627 --> 00:32:45,974
And I was recently talking with 
Christoph Germann on our new show,

612
00:32:45,974 --> 00:32:49,167
and he was mentioning that more
and more analysts

613
00:32:49,167 --> 00:32:51,870
are starting to come around to the idea

614
00:32:51,870 --> 00:32:55,100
that Turkey is entering this
Pakistan-ization

615
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:59,352
where it's being broken up into 
these little areas

616
00:32:59,352 --> 00:33:02,452
like Gaziantep or Hatay, which 
are right on the border

617
00:33:02,452 --> 00:33:05,991
or Suruç, where Serena Shim 
was recently murdered

618
00:33:05,991 --> 00:33:08,922
and they're starting to resemble
more and more

619
00:33:08,922 --> 00:33:11,342
places like Peshawar in the 
1980s and 1990s.

620
00:33:11,342 --> 00:33:14,559
And again, the relationship between MIT,

621
00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:16,371
the Turkish intelligence and ISIS

622
00:33:16,371 --> 00:33:18,999
is somewhat similar to the ISI 
and the Taliban.

623
00:33:18,999 --> 00:33:25,325
So I guess, is that really the direction
that NATO and the CIA and MI6,

624
00:33:25,325 --> 00:33:29,169
-- the Deep State network -- 
want to go in?

625
00:33:29,169 --> 00:33:31,006
Because it seems as if they're playing

626
00:33:31,006 --> 00:33:32,590
a very dangerous game here.

627
00:33:32,590 --> 00:33:37,758
And if Turkey really did become...
like, a Pakistan-type scenario,

628
00:33:37,758 --> 00:33:41,871
is that really an intended 
consequence of this?

629
00:33:41,871 --> 00:33:43,755
I know, I don't want to keep
bringing back...

630
00:33:43,755 --> 00:33:45,827
(Sibel) No, absolutely. Absolutely, it is.

631
00:33:45,827 --> 00:33:51,330
Because you have to look at the last, 
let's say, 8-10 years

632
00:33:51,330 --> 00:33:53,276
of what's been happening with Turkey.

633
00:33:53,276 --> 00:33:56,302
Having countries...

634
00:33:56,302 --> 00:34:00,792
-- especially the countries that we
control, our allies:

635
00:34:00,792 --> 00:34:03,553
in this case, you just said Pakistan: 
very similar. --

636
00:34:03,553 --> 00:34:08,296
having countries weak and not unified,

637
00:34:08,296 --> 00:34:10,990
with lots of internal chaos...

638
00:34:10,990 --> 00:34:12,050
let's say in Turkey,

639
00:34:12,050 --> 00:34:16,388
a Turkey that has a lot of things 
going on with the Kurdish sects.

640
00:34:16,388 --> 00:34:20,321
The Kurds executing some 
terror operations,

641
00:34:20,321 --> 00:34:23,956
the atrocity of Turkish militaries 
against the Kurds,

642
00:34:23,956 --> 00:34:28,095
all the internal chaos created
by that division

643
00:34:28,095 --> 00:34:32,382
between the Kurdish sects
and the rest of Turkey.

644
00:34:32,382 --> 00:34:34,246
Then, to have other pockets.

645
00:34:34,246 --> 00:34:40,645
Division along the extremist religious 
people there,

646
00:34:40,645 --> 00:34:42,413
versus the secular.

647
00:34:42,413 --> 00:34:47,343
That's what we have always intended
and we wanted...

648
00:34:47,343 --> 00:34:49,314
-- and we <i>want:</i>
this continues --

649
00:34:49,314 --> 00:34:51,829
for countries that are allies.

650
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:54,170
A strong, unified nation,

651
00:34:54,170 --> 00:34:56,381
especially for Middle East,

652
00:34:56,381 --> 00:35:01,069
for a strategically, geographically 
strategic nation,

653
00:35:01,069 --> 00:35:02,653
is something that we never want.

654
00:35:02,653 --> 00:35:04,420
We never want it.

655
00:35:04,420 --> 00:35:09,351
We want Iraq that is divided between
Shia and Sunnis and Kurds.

656
00:35:09,351 --> 00:35:11,388
Because that makes Iraq much weaker,

657
00:35:11,388 --> 00:35:15,868
therefore much more susceptible
to be a puppet nation.

658
00:35:15,868 --> 00:35:17,361
To take over, to take over their oil.

659
00:35:17,361 --> 00:35:19,362
Same thing with Pakistan.

660
00:35:19,362 --> 00:35:20,616
Same thing with Turkey.

661
00:35:20,616 --> 00:35:22,368
Now, what has been scaring...

662
00:35:22,368 --> 00:35:24,405
because there has been so much

663
00:35:24,405 --> 00:35:29,036
going on with the mainstream
media reporting on Turkey

664
00:35:29,036 --> 00:35:31,820
in the past five, six years here
in the United States,

665
00:35:31,820 --> 00:35:36,769
is a government that they don't like,

666
00:35:36,769 --> 00:35:40,239
and a country that has started 
becoming economically strong.

667
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,604
If you look at what has been happening,

668
00:35:42,604 --> 00:35:48,728
or what really happened with 
Europe in 2008, 2009 and 2010,

669
00:35:48,728 --> 00:35:50,110
and turn around and look at what has...

670
00:35:50,110 --> 00:35:52,398
-- economically, I'm talking about --

671
00:35:52,498 --> 00:35:55,019
what has been happening during
the same years,

672
00:35:55,104 --> 00:35:56,585
those same years, in Turkey,

673
00:35:56,585 --> 00:36:00,938
you see Turkey was one of the 
only nations there in the region

674
00:36:00,938 --> 00:36:04,832
that with economy that actually
got stronger and better

675
00:36:04,832 --> 00:36:08,151
without all the havoc that was 
taking place in Europe.

676
00:36:08,151 --> 00:36:09,353
That's number one.

677
00:36:09,353 --> 00:36:13,255
Number two: you see what happened
with the protests.

678
00:36:13,255 --> 00:36:16,139
The Gezi protests and all the chaos

679
00:36:16,139 --> 00:36:19,297
that were completely scripted 
and implemented in Turkey

680
00:36:19,297 --> 00:36:23,516
by the United States, by the 
Gladio operation

681
00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:29,845
being defeated. Because they... 
and there was so much coverage

682
00:36:29,845 --> 00:36:32,538
when they were talking about 
the elections coming

683
00:36:32,538 --> 00:36:35,234
and Erdoğan was not gonna be elected.

684
00:36:35,234 --> 00:36:37,672
But Turkey still stood unified,

685
00:36:37,672 --> 00:36:39,132
and they re-elected this guy.

686
00:36:39,132 --> 00:36:41,334
So I'm not saying this guy is good 
or is bad.

687
00:36:41,334 --> 00:36:46,516
We never, ever, in the Middle East, 
intend to have

688
00:36:46,516 --> 00:36:49,980
any allies that can be strong and unified.

689
00:36:49,980 --> 00:36:54,516
So taking countries and making sure

690
00:36:54,516 --> 00:36:57,943
that they are bogged down by 
all these divisions

691
00:36:57,943 --> 00:37:01,472
and internal conflicts between 
various sects,

692
00:37:01,472 --> 00:37:04,604
either along the religious lines, 
Sunni versus Shia,

693
00:37:04,604 --> 00:37:10,437
or along race, or along the ideologies:

694
00:37:10,437 --> 00:37:16,078
that has been the recipe of...

695
00:37:16,078 --> 00:37:19,542
and again, this is really interesting
because, Tom,

696
00:37:19,542 --> 00:37:22,110
this is something that we took from...

697
00:37:22,110 --> 00:37:24,710
-- I don't want to say "inherited..." --

698
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:26,905
but took from the Brits,
the British Empire.

699
00:37:26,905 --> 00:37:27,645
(Tom) Sure.

700
00:37:27,645 --> 00:37:31,636
(Sibel) Because that has always been 
the modus operandi

701
00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:35,880
of the British Empire. The divide 
and conquer.

702
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,293
And that has been, even in Iran,

703
00:37:38,293 --> 00:37:43,072
it's always been the tool utilized
and the modus operandi

704
00:37:43,072 --> 00:37:46,690
put in place and practiced by the 
British Empire,

705
00:37:46,690 --> 00:37:51,593
and it is now part of the Gladio and 
the United States' modus operandi.

706
00:37:51,593 --> 00:37:54,791
So for... we don't want a strong Turkey.

707
00:37:54,791 --> 00:37:57,823
We don't want a peaceful, unified Turkey.

708
00:37:57,823 --> 00:37:59,461
We do not want a strong Iraq.

709
00:37:59,461 --> 00:38:00,645
I mean, one of the...

710
00:38:00,645 --> 00:38:03,457
look at, when we were taking over Iraq...

711
00:38:03,457 --> 00:38:08,571
-- the war against Iraq, and then
Saddam, and going in there --

712
00:38:08,571 --> 00:38:11,045
one of the things that made it
much easier...

713
00:38:11,045 --> 00:38:15,208
-- and the chaos that's going on there,
currently, is completely intended --

714
00:38:15,208 --> 00:38:18,164
was the country was not one country.

715
00:38:18,164 --> 00:38:22,034
In the north, you had these whole 
big Kurds who are against Saddam

716
00:38:22,034 --> 00:38:24,840
they have had their internal wars
for years and years

717
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,519
between Saddam and the Kurds.

718
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:28,551
In the south, we had the Shias.

719
00:38:28,551 --> 00:38:31,184
And in the center, we had the Sunnis.

720
00:38:31,184 --> 00:38:33,217
And even during the First Gulf War,

721
00:38:33,217 --> 00:38:35,224
that, again, was used:

722
00:38:35,224 --> 00:38:37,751
with the Kurds in the north 
and the Shias in the south,

723
00:38:37,751 --> 00:38:40,808
and, look: all the people that 
got massacred and killed

724
00:38:40,808 --> 00:38:42,444
and from all three sides.

725
00:38:42,444 --> 00:38:44,772
but that's exactly what we want.

726
00:38:44,772 --> 00:38:47,857
And that's exactly what the 
British Empire wanted before

727
00:38:47,857 --> 00:38:52,772
when they re-drew the maps 
of the entire region

728
00:38:52,772 --> 00:38:54,365
and that includes, even, Africa.

729
00:38:54,365 --> 00:38:57,214
The maps were drawn in such a way

730
00:38:57,214 --> 00:39:02,211
that would keep these countries
to prosper, the region,

731
00:39:02,211 --> 00:39:04,518
and to be unified, and to be peaceful.

732
00:39:04,518 --> 00:39:07,695
These maps, the borders,

733
00:39:07,695 --> 00:39:09,446
were all drawn and created

734
00:39:09,446 --> 00:39:14,491
based on the division and the 
dividing lines

735
00:39:14,491 --> 00:39:17,455
between the tribes, between 
various religious sects.

736
00:39:17,455 --> 00:39:19,495
So absolutely, this is intended.

737
00:39:19,495 --> 00:39:21,529
And as far as to what end,

738
00:39:21,529 --> 00:39:25,050
this is why the book gets into, 
well, Operation Gladio B

739
00:39:25,050 --> 00:39:27,747
will be Operation Gladio C at some point

740
00:39:27,747 --> 00:39:29,873
and Gladio C will be Gladio D

741
00:39:29,873 --> 00:39:33,702
because one region you don't
hear American media talking about

742
00:39:33,702 --> 00:39:36,553
it China and the Xinjiang region.

743
00:39:36,553 --> 00:39:40,214
They call it [East] Turkestan, 
they call it Uyghuristan.

744
00:39:40,214 --> 00:39:44,879
The Uyghurs, well, these are
the Muslim minorities

745
00:39:44,879 --> 00:39:47,886
in that region of China.

746
00:39:47,886 --> 00:39:50,145
And they are Turkic heritage,

747
00:39:50,145 --> 00:39:52,636
and we don't hear much about that.

748
00:39:52,636 --> 00:39:53,943
But that is in the plan.

749
00:39:53,943 --> 00:39:56,079
That is part of Operation Gladio.

750
00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:59,650
And what we want, basically, is...

751
00:39:59,650 --> 00:40:01,393
and that's what's gonna happen.

752
00:40:01,393 --> 00:40:02,619
You're gonna see this happening

753
00:40:02,619 --> 00:40:05,705
in the next, I would say, less than five,
six years.

754
00:40:05,705 --> 00:40:09,094
You see, once in a while, they talk
about the US media

755
00:40:09,094 --> 00:40:13,645
how oppressive the Chinese regime 
is against these people.

756
00:40:13,645 --> 00:40:16,720
You know, these people, they don't
consider themselves Chinese.

757
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:18,238
They consider themselves Muslims.

758
00:40:18,238 --> 00:40:19,805
They consider themselves Uyghurs.

759
00:40:19,805 --> 00:40:21,236
They consider themselves Turkic.

760
00:40:21,236 --> 00:40:23,293
Their language is Turkic, OK?

761
00:40:23,293 --> 00:40:24,693
They want independence.

762
00:40:24,693 --> 00:40:28,117
Well, we have been cultivating that
for the past...

763
00:40:28,117 --> 00:40:33,232
since 1997, 1996 there, OK?

764
00:40:33,232 --> 00:40:34,972
And what we want is

765
00:40:34,972 --> 00:40:39,282
we want some of these terror incidents

766
00:40:39,282 --> 00:40:41,167
and the escalation of that,

767
00:40:41,167 --> 00:40:45,475
and getting China to increase its 
oppression and react,

768
00:40:45,475 --> 00:40:49,637
because China wants to [xx] they just
want to defend their interests,

769
00:40:49,637 --> 00:40:53,560
then show that to the international 
community by saying,

770
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,354
"Look, these poor little minority 
groups there,"

771
00:40:57,354 --> 00:40:59,847
"They are being crucified. They are 
being massacred"

772
00:40:59,847 --> 00:41:01,960
"It's almost like genocide."

773
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,420
They want this genocidal operation,

774
00:41:04,420 --> 00:41:09,150
they want it to escalate to the point 
of genocidal operations,

775
00:41:09,150 --> 00:41:11,143
they want to push China into reacting

776
00:41:11,143 --> 00:41:14,101
and turning this into a genocidal 
operations.

777
00:41:14,101 --> 00:41:18,075
So then, with the consent of the 
international community,

778
00:41:18,075 --> 00:41:22,489
we go there, in there, and say we 
are here to stand by the sects

779
00:41:22,489 --> 00:41:24,560
because we are such great nation.

780
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,661
We care a lot [laughter]

781
00:41:26,661 --> 00:41:28,891
about humanity.

782
00:41:28,891 --> 00:41:32,115
And we always have these great 
intentions.

783
00:41:32,115 --> 00:41:34,637
It's always because we want to democrat---

784
00:41:34,637 --> 00:41:37,998
we bring democracy and
democratize a nation.

785
00:41:37,998 --> 00:41:40,070
We want to protect some underdog.

786
00:41:40,070 --> 00:41:42,886
We want to defend some minority groups

787
00:41:42,886 --> 00:41:45,169
because we are that kind of nation, guys.

788
00:41:45,169 --> 00:41:48,718
OK? That's what we always, 
always have done, right?

789
00:41:48,718 --> 00:41:50,285
You know, it's always glorified.

790
00:41:50,285 --> 00:41:52,364
We always intend good things.

791
00:41:52,364 --> 00:41:55,135
And look, bad things happen as a result: 
but they are unintended.

792
00:41:55,135 --> 00:41:56,569
Again, going back to "blowback."

793
00:41:56,569 --> 00:41:58,283
But once we have that,

794
00:41:58,283 --> 00:42:00,960
once we have a situation escalate

795
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,516
and we are pushing it to that degree

796
00:42:02,516 --> 00:42:05,477
-- this is all planned: it's been in
motion since 1996 --

797
00:42:05,477 --> 00:42:08,172
then we're gonna say, "We've got to 
help these guys,"

798
00:42:08,172 --> 00:42:09,366
"so we've got to put our military there,"

799
00:42:09,366 --> 00:42:11,867
and it's going to be another Taiwan.

800
00:42:11,867 --> 00:42:13,607
That's the intention, OK?

801
00:42:13,607 --> 00:42:14,811
That's the objective.

802
00:42:14,811 --> 00:42:20,166
We want to separate Xinjiang area 
from the rest of mainland China.

803
00:42:20,166 --> 00:42:23,807
We will put a base there, in the name
of protecting these minorities,

804
00:42:23,807 --> 00:42:26,544
and we're gonna turn it to 
another Taiwan.

805
00:42:26,544 --> 00:42:28,578
That is the ultimate goal.

806
00:42:28,578 --> 00:42:30,809
And look and see where Xinjiang is:

807
00:42:30,809 --> 00:42:37,116
not only for us to get close to China 
just the way we are doing with Russia,

808
00:42:37,116 --> 00:42:40,116
with using the Caucasus and Central Asia,

809
00:42:40,116 --> 00:42:42,918
this is the start for us with this 
Xinjiang region

810
00:42:42,918 --> 00:42:47,198
to exactly implement the same objective,
the same plan

811
00:42:47,198 --> 00:42:50,276
and get close to China and close in
on China.

812
00:42:50,276 --> 00:42:51,477
So, that's number one.

813
00:42:51,477 --> 00:42:56,181
And number two, if you look at the 
pipeline scenario

814
00:42:56,181 --> 00:42:57,895
-- this is for the oil and gas --

815
00:42:57,895 --> 00:43:03,558
the oil and gas resource-rich regions
of Central Asia and Caucasus,

816
00:43:03,558 --> 00:43:06,551
when you look at Turkmenistan 
and Kazakhstan, et cetera,

817
00:43:06,551 --> 00:43:09,337
and you see all the business deals

818
00:43:09,337 --> 00:43:12,553
between China and these
Central Asia/Caucasus,

819
00:43:12,553 --> 00:43:15,253
ex-Soviet nations...

820
00:43:15,253 --> 00:43:18,283
--because how many billion people
are in China? --

821
00:43:18,283 --> 00:43:23,106
China has the greatest need for
energy resources

822
00:43:23,106 --> 00:43:25,312
compared to any other nation 
in the world.

823
00:43:25,312 --> 00:43:28,166
They need this oil, they need this gas,

824
00:43:28,166 --> 00:43:31,076
and they are putting all these pipelines 
to bring...

825
00:43:31,076 --> 00:43:32,340
-- with business deals --

826
00:43:32,340 --> 00:43:37,810
this needed gas and oil into China. 
Into mainland china.

827
00:43:37,810 --> 00:43:41,039
Well, go and see where these pipelines 
pass through.

828
00:43:41,039 --> 00:43:46,038
Then you start realizing the significance 
of the Xinjiang region.

829
00:43:46,038 --> 00:43:51,520
So by having our power, our military 
boots on the ground,

830
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,674
our base there in Xinjiang,

831
00:43:53,674 --> 00:43:56,435
not only we are controlling getting 
close to China,

832
00:43:56,435 --> 00:43:58,636
but we are sitting in the section

833
00:43:58,636 --> 00:44:05,408
that is the [xx] that the pipelines entry
into mainland China.

834
00:44:05,408 --> 00:44:10,050
We can starve and deprive China of all 
oil and gas

835
00:44:10,050 --> 00:44:12,981
coming from that region by sitting there.

836
00:44:12,981 --> 00:44:18,894
So that's the area you don't hear much 
from the mainstream media, US,

837
00:44:18,894 --> 00:44:21,096
even though so much has been
taking place.

838
00:44:21,096 --> 00:44:26,809
They only broadcast when China reacts
to some terror incidents that we manage

839
00:44:26,809 --> 00:44:29,567
-- "we" being the United States, 
Operation Gladio --

840
00:44:29,567 --> 00:44:33,986
by the Xinjiang Uyghurs, and show
how despotic they are.

841
00:44:33,986 --> 00:44:38,498
You know, they go there and they are
oppressing people, repressing people,

842
00:44:38,498 --> 00:44:40,972
they are killing people, they are
jailing people,

843
00:44:40,972 --> 00:44:43,795
awful stuff that China is doing to 
these people, right?

844
00:44:43,795 --> 00:44:46,732
We don't show the casualties of
when these groups, our groups,

845
00:44:46,732 --> 00:44:49,764
implement terror operations in 
mainland China,

846
00:44:49,764 --> 00:44:52,268
but we right away broadcast
what China did.

847
00:44:52,268 --> 00:44:55,891
So we are basically massaging
the peoples,

848
00:44:55,891 --> 00:44:58,814
Americans and also
international communities,

849
00:44:58,814 --> 00:45:01,242
and even especially the Muslim region,

850
00:45:01,242 --> 00:45:04,777
of, "Look, what is China doing 
to these people?"

851
00:45:04,777 --> 00:45:06,444
The same thing we've been doing with,

852
00:45:06,444 --> 00:45:08,616
"Look what Russians are doing 
to Chechens!'

853
00:45:08,616 --> 00:45:11,587
<i>Exactly</i> the same scenario.

854
00:45:11,587 --> 00:45:13,214
It's the same Operation Gladio.

855
00:45:13,214 --> 00:45:15,575
And again, when you said, "To what end?"

856
00:45:15,575 --> 00:45:19,003
That's... we are... we have these
objectives in place.

857
00:45:19,003 --> 00:45:22,152
Not "we:" the Operation;
the Operation Gladio.

858
00:45:22,152 --> 00:45:24,700
And China and getting close,

859
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:30,634
controlling the entry of the needed oil 
and gas into China

860
00:45:30,634 --> 00:45:34,768
thus containing China from becoming 
the superpower,

861
00:45:34,768 --> 00:45:39,742
is in motion. And the same thing
with Russia.

862
00:45:39,742 --> 00:45:43,216
And of course we have the prize 
there that we haven't done anything.

863
00:45:43,216 --> 00:45:46,252
That's for the next administration.

864
00:45:46,252 --> 00:45:49,348
Right now, we have Syria. 
We had Libya before that.

865
00:45:49,348 --> 00:45:53,258
Yemen, Afghanistan with... we're
gonna stay there.

866
00:45:53,258 --> 00:45:55,319
Of course that's gonna be our 
permanent base.

867
00:45:55,319 --> 00:45:56,976
There's no question about that.

868
00:45:56,976 --> 00:45:58,746
Pakistan is our puppet region.

869
00:45:58,746 --> 00:46:02,472
Of course, these regions sometimes
play off of US against China.

870
00:46:02,472 --> 00:46:07,010
"OK, so you do this, then I'm gonna
go and make a deal with China."

871
00:46:07,010 --> 00:46:08,471
Well, we don't want that, right?

872
00:46:08,471 --> 00:46:12,491
And again, that ends up being
some headlines once in a while,

873
00:46:12,491 --> 00:46:16,460
but the importance of it is way beyond
what the US media

874
00:46:16,460 --> 00:46:18,560
represents in its reporting.

875
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,999
So of course the prize being Iran there.

876
00:46:20,999 --> 00:46:23,327
And between Central Asia, Caucasus,

877
00:46:23,327 --> 00:46:24,905
Iran, Afghanistan,

878
00:46:24,905 --> 00:46:29,115
the goal is whoever controls 
the resources,

879
00:46:29,115 --> 00:46:35,141
the needed resources: the oil, the gas, the needed minerals --

880
00:46:35,141 --> 00:46:37,329
that is the superpower.

881
00:46:37,952 --> 00:46:41,826
That is the sole empire of the globe, the world.

882
00:46:41,826 --> 00:46:45,983
And we have been doing it through
Operation Gladio,

883
00:46:45,983 --> 00:46:49,507
and of course with our more 
militaristic covert wars.

884
00:46:49,507 --> 00:46:50,749
But then look at our competitors,

885
00:46:50,749 --> 00:46:52,892
supposedly our enemies,

886
00:46:52,892 --> 00:46:53,917
China and Russia:

887
00:46:53,917 --> 00:46:56,076
we haven't seen anything like that
from them.

888
00:46:56,076 --> 00:46:58,655
And so that is our modus operandi,

889
00:46:58,655 --> 00:47:00,294
and that is the objective.

890
00:47:00,294 --> 00:47:03,750
The objective is who is going to be 
the sole superpower,

891
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:05,161
the super-empire.

892
00:47:05,161 --> 00:47:06,793
And as long as that's the objective,

893
00:47:06,793 --> 00:47:08,500
these are the things we're 
gonna be doing.

894
00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:12,547
(Pearse) Hmm. And I think that you're 
really right in pointing out that this is...

895
00:47:12,547 --> 00:47:16,897
the situation in Xinjiang right now is 
actually starting

896
00:47:16,897 --> 00:47:18,991
to get more, sort of, intense;

897
00:47:18,991 --> 00:47:20,674
and we're already seeing Uyghurs

898
00:47:20,674 --> 00:47:22,695
that were fighting in Iraq 
that were captured.

899
00:47:22,695 --> 00:47:26,081
And it seems that perhaps

900
00:47:26,081 --> 00:47:28,943
we are entering into a different 
phase of Gladio.

901
00:47:28,943 --> 00:47:31,692
And just briefly, I just wanted to take 
your take on

902
00:47:31,692 --> 00:47:35,420
Tarkhan Batirashvili or Omar al-Shishani,

903
00:47:35,420 --> 00:47:37,670
who is the "Ginger Jihadi."

904
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:40,877
And he seems to have been thrust 
into the spotlight of ISIS.

905
00:47:40,877 --> 00:47:44,970
There was a <i>Daily Beast</i> article calling
him "The Bin Laden of the Group."

906
00:47:44,970 --> 00:47:48,299
Of course, and then a little bit down
in the article they say,

907
00:47:48,299 --> 00:47:50,530
"Well, his brother is really the brains 
behind all of this."

908
00:47:50,530 --> 00:47:54,279
And Batirashvili has a somewhat 
similar background

909
00:47:54,279 --> 00:47:57,387
to a character in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>, 
Yusuf Mohammed

910
00:47:57,387 --> 00:48:00,402
and we'll leave that to the audience 
to decipher who is is.

911
00:48:00,402 --> 00:48:03,077
But of course, Batirashvili was trained 
by the Americans

912
00:48:03,077 --> 00:48:05,236
in a Georgian Special Forces outfit,

913
00:48:05,236 --> 00:48:08,025
fought against the Russians in Chechnya,

914
00:48:08,025 --> 00:48:10,839
and he has repeatedly said that he wants

915
00:48:10,839 --> 00:48:13,607
to bring the fight back to Kadyrov 
and Putin,

916
00:48:13,607 --> 00:48:15,688
with not so much as a peep out 
of Georgia.

917
00:48:15,688 --> 00:48:19,464
So I just wanted to see and get your
take on this, Sibel.

918
00:48:19,464 --> 00:48:24,935
And is this a, sort of, new ramping up?

919
00:48:24,935 --> 00:48:30,554
Are we going to go from the small-scale
attacks like in <i>The Lone Gladio</i>,

920
00:48:30,554 --> 00:48:34,772
like the bombing in the Defense Ministry
in the beginning of the book,

921
00:48:34,772 --> 00:48:38,169
to a more, sort of, open war with Russia?

922
00:48:38,169 --> 00:48:43,705
And with, perhaps, this Batirashvili -- 
this white jihadi guy -- at the forefront?

923
00:48:43,705 --> 00:48:49,351
(Sibel) My answer, I guess, will have 
three different segments into it.

924
00:48:49,351 --> 00:48:52,296
Number one, that's right: you mentioned 
the character Yusuf Mohammed.

925
00:48:52,296 --> 00:48:57,631
But the biography, the summary short 
biography that you just mentioned,

926
00:48:57,631 --> 00:49:00,938
fits exactly Ayman Zawahiri's.

927
00:49:00,938 --> 00:49:01,953
Mm.

928
00:49:01,953 --> 00:49:04,924
OK? Ayman Zawahiri was jailed; 
he was tortured.

929
00:49:04,924 --> 00:49:10,232
Then he went there and became the 
lieutenant for Osama Bin Laden

930
00:49:10,232 --> 00:49:16,873
and was fighting against Russia in... 
with <i>mujahideen</i> cell in Afghanistan.

931
00:49:16,873 --> 00:49:20,271
So you... as you said, you're looking 
at the repeated bios.

932
00:49:20,271 --> 00:49:24,202
So these are the... the profiles are 
so consistent.

933
00:49:24,202 --> 00:49:26,635
See, that's one of the other 
interesting things

934
00:49:26,635 --> 00:49:30,041
about the United States and NATO,

935
00:49:30,041 --> 00:49:31,620
the Operation Gladio,

936
00:49:31,620 --> 00:49:33,373
and that is the consistency.

937
00:49:33,373 --> 00:49:37,746
Really, you may see some small
variations here and there,

938
00:49:37,746 --> 00:49:40,581
but if you look at it overall,

939
00:49:40,581 --> 00:49:43,842
the script is the same. The scenario 
is the same.

940
00:49:43,842 --> 00:49:48,563
I mean, in a way: it's awful, but it's 
also boring.

941
00:49:48,563 --> 00:49:49,728
But guess what?

942
00:49:49,728 --> 00:49:53,286
If it works, if it ain't break, 
don't fix it, right?

943
00:49:53,286 --> 00:49:54,461
That's how the saying goes?

944
00:49:54,461 --> 00:49:56,735
It worked with Afghanistan,

945
00:49:56,735 --> 00:50:00,297
it worked with... it has been working.

946
00:50:00,297 --> 00:50:02,862
So why change it, right?

947
00:50:02,862 --> 00:50:05,061
So that's number one aspect of it.

948
00:50:05,061 --> 00:50:08,435
That the bios being exactly consistent
as the rest of them.

949
00:50:08,435 --> 00:50:11,940
you know, Zawahiri and Yusuf Mohammed.

950
00:50:11,940 --> 00:50:14,439
And the second part of it

951
00:50:14,439 --> 00:50:17,584
has to do with the psychological 
aspects of it.

952
00:50:17,584 --> 00:50:19,458
And this is the psychological warfare,

953
00:50:19,458 --> 00:50:21,576
and also propaganda.

954
00:50:21,576 --> 00:50:26,708
And that is when you put... let's say 
you have an enemy cell.

955
00:50:26,708 --> 00:50:30,094
ISIS, ISIS, right? They are doing 
these ferocious things.

956
00:50:30,094 --> 00:50:32,606
It goes only so far.

957
00:50:32,606 --> 00:50:35,063
Of course, let's say, look at the 
Americans' opinion:

958
00:50:35,063 --> 00:50:39,017
these barbaric Muslims -- they
are Islamists, number one.

959
00:50:39,017 --> 00:50:40,575
"This is what Islam advocates,"

960
00:50:40,575 --> 00:50:43,594
"and these barbaric extremists,
they're doing all this stuff. "

961
00:50:43,594 --> 00:50:47,058
Goes... it's effective; but it goes 
only so far.

962
00:50:47,058 --> 00:50:52,420
What you always need in a 
psychological warfare and propaganda

963
00:50:52,420 --> 00:50:56,351
is to put a human, actual human face 
and name to it.

964
00:50:56,351 --> 00:51:00,224
Because then, that makes it so
personal, right?

965
00:51:00,224 --> 00:51:05,227
Because, as we did with Osama Bin Laden.

966
00:51:05,227 --> 00:51:09,066
Showing the picture of that Khalid 
Sheikh Mohammed.

967
00:51:09,066 --> 00:51:11,796
That evil-looking guy, you know? 
He's crazy, right?

968
00:51:11,796 --> 00:51:13,496
"MOOONSTER!"

969
00:51:13,496 --> 00:51:16,421
So we associate, when we think 
about the Americans...

970
00:51:16,421 --> 00:51:17,430
you know, people,

971
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:20,597
then we are thinking about these 
horrifying boogeymen.

972
00:51:20,597 --> 00:51:23,081
If we don't have, put some pictures 
there...

973
00:51:23,081 --> 00:51:25,082
you know, it's like Freddy Krueger, 
right?

974
00:51:25,082 --> 00:51:29,864
Freddy Kruger. I mean, you can write
all the stories about Freddy Krueger,

975
00:51:29,864 --> 00:51:33,581
but if you don't create an image
that goes with Freddy Krueger,

976
00:51:33,581 --> 00:51:37,531
Freddy Krueger can't become 
that monstrously scary, right?

977
00:51:37,531 --> 00:51:42,907
So Osama Bin Laden, with that long 
beard and the dark, piercing black eyes,

978
00:51:42,907 --> 00:51:48,329
that screams evil, and you have Khalid 
Sheikh Mohammed, that crazed guy there.

979
00:51:48,329 --> 00:51:51,669
And then you are looking at
Ayman Zawahiri,

980
00:51:51,669 --> 00:51:55,545
and the photos when he's talking
passionate with his index finger up,

981
00:51:55,545 --> 00:51:59,593
you know, the extremist Islamist 
mullah with his headpiece.

982
00:51:59,593 --> 00:52:01,418
Well, those are effective.

983
00:52:01,418 --> 00:52:04,983
Because just like Hollywood movies,
just like Freddy Krueger,

984
00:52:04,983 --> 00:52:07,398
you need to have a human face 
and name

985
00:52:07,398 --> 00:52:10,634
that you make it synonymous with 
whatever cell

986
00:52:10,634 --> 00:52:13,688
you have created and put in
place, right?

987
00:52:13,688 --> 00:52:15,699
And that's exactly what we are 
seeing with this guy.

988
00:52:15,699 --> 00:52:20,291
Because ISIS, ISIL, IS -- they did this? 
OK, that's fine.

989
00:52:20,291 --> 00:52:24,591
But now it's time to enter, to bring in

990
00:52:24,591 --> 00:52:27,024
and introduce the face that 
represents it all.

991
00:52:27,024 --> 00:52:29,903
Now, you have [xx] this person.

992
00:52:29,903 --> 00:52:32,491
So that's the second segment.

993
00:52:32,491 --> 00:52:34,451
And as far as yet bigger war,

994
00:52:34,451 --> 00:52:39,657
I think we are putting things in place 
for that if needed,

995
00:52:39,657 --> 00:52:43,962
but I will offer my own
hypothesis theory.

996
00:52:43,962 --> 00:52:45,824
Because I don't know this for a fact,

997
00:52:45,824 --> 00:52:48,756
but if someone were to ask me to speculate

998
00:52:48,756 --> 00:52:53,170
and say when and why... 
when we would do such things,

999
00:52:53,170 --> 00:52:55,197
in terms of going into full-blown war,

1000
00:52:55,197 --> 00:52:58,159
this is what I have to offer.

1001
00:52:58,159 --> 00:53:01,381
Again, this is based on my own analysis 
and opinion,

1002
00:53:01,381 --> 00:53:04,493
and I'm not going to market it as,
"Oh, this is pure fact."

1003
00:53:04,493 --> 00:53:05,933
This is my opinion.

1004
00:53:05,933 --> 00:53:08,712
First of all, we are going to see much
more stuff

1005
00:53:08,712 --> 00:53:10,706
with Georgia, Abkhazia region.

1006
00:53:10,706 --> 00:53:14,937
We had that -- what was it? -- six-day 
war, eight-day war a few years ago?

1007
00:53:14,937 --> 00:53:16,347
That was just a warm-up.

1008
00:53:16,347 --> 00:53:22,070
But with Georgia's candidacy, 
integration into NATO that is coming,

1009
00:53:22,070 --> 00:53:25,619
that is going to happen in that region.

1010
00:53:25,619 --> 00:53:29,772
We're gonna see more conflict
and confrontation there.

1011
00:53:29,772 --> 00:53:34,254
Similar to Ukraine, we're gonna see it 
in the Abkhazia region there.

1012
00:53:34,254 --> 00:53:36,885
And again, these terror cells and 
the groups,

1013
00:53:36,885 --> 00:53:39,807
we have already cultivated, 
put together, put in place,

1014
00:53:39,807 --> 00:53:41,351
we've been managing in that region.

1015
00:53:41,351 --> 00:53:44,434
We got a little bit of taste of 
that during

1016
00:53:44,434 --> 00:53:47,104
the so-called false flag Boston 
bombing.

1017
00:53:47,104 --> 00:53:49,460
People started hearing,

1018
00:53:49,460 --> 00:53:51,427
at least their ears got a little bit 
used to,

1019
00:53:51,427 --> 00:53:54,011
this "Dagestan" region?

1020
00:53:54,011 --> 00:53:54,828
[laughter]

1021
00:53:54,828 --> 00:53:55,788
You see?

1022
00:53:55,788 --> 00:53:58,415
Because ordinarily, most Americans: 
they don't like geography, OK?

1023
00:53:58,415 --> 00:54:03,083
They like to view the world as this... 
the United States of America.

1024
00:54:03,083 --> 00:54:04,614
OK? It's huge.

1025
00:54:04,614 --> 00:54:06,895
Look, Turkey's the size of Texas, right?

1026
00:54:06,895 --> 00:54:08,931
Well, I don't even know where Turkey 
exactly is.

1027
00:54:08,931 --> 00:54:09,896
We are a big country,

1028
00:54:09,896 --> 00:54:11,981
we are just by ourselves here.

1029
00:54:11,981 --> 00:54:15,264
There are some countries and nations 
with weird names, oh,

1030
00:54:15,264 --> 00:54:17,254
thousands of miles away.

1031
00:54:17,254 --> 00:54:18,433
Who needs to know about them?

1032
00:54:18,433 --> 00:54:20,400
If you were to ask Americans,

1033
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,973
I would say 94 percent -- I'm just gonna 
throw a number here --

1034
00:54:23,973 --> 00:54:25,796
if you put the map and say,

1035
00:54:25,796 --> 00:54:30,718
"OK, put your finger on the region that
is considered Caucasus/Central Asia,"

1036
00:54:30,718 --> 00:54:34,448
I can guarantee you, if we were to 
implement this test,

1037
00:54:34,448 --> 00:54:36,750
You would see that 94% of Americans,

1038
00:54:36,750 --> 00:54:39,311
their index finger would freeze 
in the air.

1039
00:54:39,311 --> 00:54:43,147
"What?" "Can you show me Kyrgyzstan?"
"What's that?"

1040
00:54:43,147 --> 00:54:46,620
I mean, I'll just give you a quick... 
it's not a joke, it's a real-life thing.

1041
00:54:46,620 --> 00:54:50,429
When I started college, university 
here in the United States --

1042
00:54:50,429 --> 00:54:54,878
and this is during my second, third year, 
so this is not in high school

1043
00:54:54,878 --> 00:54:56,227
this is in college-level

1044
00:54:56,227 --> 00:54:59,419
this one guy in my class, he says, 
"You're from Turkey, right?"

1045
00:54:59,419 --> 00:55:00,589
I said, "Yeah, I'm from Turkey."

1046
00:55:00,589 --> 00:55:04,002
He says, "Turkey is in Saudi Arabia, 
right?"

1047
00:55:04,002 --> 00:55:05,383
"One of the nations in Saudi Arabia?"

1048
00:55:05,383 --> 00:55:08,145
And I was like, "Oh my goodness."

1049
00:55:08,145 --> 00:55:11,455
They have made Saudi Arabia a continent,

1050
00:55:12,292 --> 00:55:17,075
And Turkey a nation in that 
continent called Saudi Arabia.

1051
00:55:17,075 --> 00:55:18,133
But unfortunately

1052
00:55:18,133 --> 00:55:20,450
-- this is a fact; this is true, OK? --

1053
00:55:20,450 --> 00:55:24,688
we... I spent years living in 
other countries.

1054
00:55:24,688 --> 00:55:26,136
I lived in Vietnam for a year.

1055
00:55:26,136 --> 00:55:30,647
I lived in Russia in 1992, right after 
the end of the Cold War.

1056
00:55:30,647 --> 00:55:36,291
And I have traveled to a lot of 
places, to many, many countries.

1057
00:55:36,291 --> 00:55:40,576
But when it comes to geography, 
with Americans,

1058
00:55:40,576 --> 00:55:45,030
I never... I'm still amazed, OK? 
It is just...

1059
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:48,359
and then I traveled... another thing
I noticed, like, when I was

1060
00:55:48,359 --> 00:55:49,931
when I was there, when I was in Vietnam,

1061
00:55:49,931 --> 00:55:53,772
I saw all these backpackers
from Scandinavian nations

1062
00:55:53,772 --> 00:55:56,769
Australia, New Zealand, a lot of Brits.

1063
00:55:56,769 --> 00:55:58,702
You know, they are 21, right
out of college.

1064
00:55:58,702 --> 00:56:00,537
Or they are taking a break from college.

1065
00:56:00,537 --> 00:56:05,513
And they have their backpacks, and they 
are traveling all over Laos and Vietnam.

1066
00:56:05,513 --> 00:56:08,009
And I struck a friendship with a lot of 
these people.

1067
00:56:08,009 --> 00:56:10,429
You hardly see Americans doing that.

1068
00:56:10,429 --> 00:56:16,871
There is this inherent desire to explore 
the world by some of those nations.

1069
00:56:16,871 --> 00:56:19,211
But you don't see it much for Americans.

1070
00:56:19,211 --> 00:56:23,702
That's another thing: that worldliness 
which reduces xenophobia.

1071
00:56:23,702 --> 00:56:25,368
When you start getting more familiar,

1072
00:56:25,368 --> 00:56:31,333
the culture and other traditions and 
people and races,

1073
00:56:31,333 --> 00:56:33,686
that kind of reduces your xenophobia,

1074
00:56:33,686 --> 00:56:38,077
but also it makes you an informed 
person about the world.

1075
00:56:38,077 --> 00:56:40,997
It makes you worldly. 
Well, you don't see that much in America.

1076
00:56:40,997 --> 00:56:44,047
So, going back to the topic 
of Kyrgyzstan,

1077
00:56:44,047 --> 00:56:45,430
"I don't even know where that is,"

1078
00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:49,484
we are going to see this conflict.

1079
00:56:49,484 --> 00:56:51,020
We have already planted that.

1080
00:56:51,020 --> 00:56:54,336
We said, "Let's make Americans 
familiar with this name Dagestan"'

1081
00:56:54,336 --> 00:56:57,715
Dagestan and terrorism have become 
kind of synonymous

1082
00:56:57,715 --> 00:56:59,251
thanks to the Boston bombing.

1083
00:56:59,251 --> 00:57:01,762
So Chechen, Dagestan, these people came,

1084
00:57:01,762 --> 00:57:02,712
they're extremists.

1085
00:57:02,712 --> 00:57:04,534
They're somehow related

1086
00:57:04,534 --> 00:57:08,106
to either al-Qaeda or Jamaati 
[sic: Jabhat?] al-Nusra... whatever.

1087
00:57:08,106 --> 00:57:10,427
But that region has many, 
many terrorists, OK?

1088
00:57:10,427 --> 00:57:14,613
We are going to reintroduce that
topic again as a nation,

1089
00:57:14,613 --> 00:57:17,746
as Operation Gladio, when the time
comes, which is going to be soon

1090
00:57:17,746 --> 00:57:19,931
in Georgia, Abkhazia region.

1091
00:57:19,931 --> 00:57:22,370
But as far as a bigger war with Russia,

1092
00:57:22,370 --> 00:57:26,676
I doubt it under current circumstances. 
That's my opinion,

1093
00:57:26,676 --> 00:57:29,368
because of Putin and who Putin is.

1094
00:57:29,368 --> 00:57:32,462
And again, Putin's rating went 
up in Russia,

1095
00:57:32,462 --> 00:57:35,986
and Putin's popularity really went
up there.

1096
00:57:35,986 --> 00:57:40,060
And Putin has been portrayed, 
even here by US media,

1097
00:57:40,060 --> 00:57:44,001
as a tough, nationalistic leader 
in Russia, right?

1098
00:57:44,001 --> 00:57:47,025
Because Putin is standing up 
to the United States.

1099
00:57:47,025 --> 00:57:50,025
He did -- he and the Russians --

1100
00:57:50,025 --> 00:57:53,718
when we were talking about going
into Syria two years ago, right?

1101
00:57:53,718 --> 00:57:56,045
And of course what we saw with Ukraine.

1102
00:57:56,045 --> 00:58:02,512
My theory is just like the limited 
opposition framed and controlled,

1103
00:58:02,512 --> 00:58:07,319
I believe there is... we have Putin tied,

1104
00:58:07,319 --> 00:58:12,686
and into a certain degree, Putin 
can only do it so much.

1105
00:58:12,686 --> 00:58:16,068
And you're going to say, why that is?

1106
00:58:16,068 --> 00:58:20,100
One of, again, our modus operandi 
has been...

1107
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:23,670
-- and you see it a lot in Operation Gladio-related sections

1108
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:25,390
of <i>The Lone Gladio</i> --

1109
00:58:25,390 --> 00:58:30,445
is blackmail and collecting crap, 
shit from people, right?

1110
00:58:30,445 --> 00:58:32,130
I mean, we do it with Congress.

1111
00:58:32,130 --> 00:58:38,890
Even with the FBI we did it. FBI had files
on some top figures in the House.

1112
00:58:38,890 --> 00:58:46,519
Just in the operation that involved 
Turkey and the Turkish lobby, right?

1113
00:58:46,519 --> 00:58:48,715
That was involved in my case.

1114
00:58:48,715 --> 00:58:51,910
but CIA has been doing it forever,

1115
00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:54,227
since its inception and creation.

1116
00:58:54,227 --> 00:58:58,377
There are some Presidents, 
and we do that.

1117
00:58:58,377 --> 00:58:59,844
Otherwise they won't become President.

1118
00:58:59,844 --> 00:59:02,308
That's one of the qualifications, 
requirements.

1119
00:59:02,308 --> 00:59:05,252
And again, the book <i>The Lone Gladio </i>
goes into that.

1120
00:59:05,252 --> 00:59:07,605
To be qualified to get to that level,

1121
00:59:07,605 --> 00:59:09,150
to that level of power seat,

1122
00:59:09,150 --> 00:59:11,602
you have to have a lot of dirt, OK?

1123
00:59:11,602 --> 00:59:14,229
That makes you a viable candidate.

1124
00:59:14,229 --> 00:59:16,176
because you are controllable.

1125
00:59:16,176 --> 00:59:19,869
If you don't have lots of skeletons 
and dirt,

1126
00:59:19,869 --> 00:59:22,373
you are not as easily controllable.

1127
00:59:22,373 --> 00:59:28,536
It's pure and simple. Well we've been 
doing that with, also, world leaders.

1128
00:59:28,536 --> 00:59:31,034
It just came out and leaked that, OK,

1129
00:59:31,034 --> 00:59:34,308
we've been collecting dirt on Angela 
Merkel, right?

1130
00:59:34,308 --> 00:59:38,809
With this NSA spying: her personal 
phones were being listened to, correct?

1131
00:59:38,809 --> 00:59:43,067
Well, why would we do that? 
Think about it.

1132
00:59:43,067 --> 00:59:44,859
Because at any given time...

1133
00:59:44,859 --> 00:59:49,263
let's say someone like Angela Merkel, if
she was not the scumbag that she is, OK?

1134
00:59:49,263 --> 00:59:54,731
And we decided that you know, Germany, 
or this country or that country,

1135
00:59:54,731 --> 00:59:56,560
is not backing us with this,

1136
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,121
what would happen if we...

1137
00:59:59,121 --> 01:00:02,134
-- "We," the United States; 
Operation Gladio --

1138
01:00:02,134 --> 01:00:08,585
would release to the media in France,
or in Germany, or in UK?

1139
01:00:08,585 --> 01:00:11,323
All sorts of recorded tapes,

1140
01:00:11,323 --> 01:00:14,694
and also maybe some Internet activities

1141
01:00:14,694 --> 01:00:18,394
showing that this particular leader 
is a pedophile, OK?

1142
01:00:18,394 --> 01:00:20,490
Let's say... you know, let's say Sarkozy.

1143
01:00:20,490 --> 01:00:23,163
I'm just giving you a hypothetical
example.

1144
01:00:23,163 --> 01:00:27,611
What would happen if all these pictures 
come out

1145
01:00:27,611 --> 01:00:30,118
that Sarkozy has been having

1146
01:00:30,118 --> 01:00:32,462
this relationship with five, 
six-years-old boys

1147
01:00:32,462 --> 01:00:35,637
and, through... and he's been a pedophile?

1148
01:00:35,637 --> 01:00:38,435
Can you imagine right away that leader 
not disappearing from that country?

1149
01:00:38,435 --> 01:00:42,477
We have that power, because we've 
been... we've been doing this a lot.

1150
01:00:42,477 --> 01:00:48,904
We first use what we collect on the 
world leaders in terms of blackmail

1151
01:00:48,904 --> 01:00:52,755
by saying, "You know what? You don't
do this and we will expose this."

1152
01:00:52,755 --> 01:00:57,183
OK? Number two, if needed, we would 
do that.

1153
01:00:57,183 --> 01:01:02,152
Some things happen with the Bakayev 
family in Kyrgyzstan

1154
01:01:02,152 --> 01:01:05,856
A lot of things are associated with that 
that I'm not gonna get into right now.

1155
01:01:05,856 --> 01:01:11,581
But with Putin, it's already estimated
that his net worth, his wealth,

1156
01:01:11,581 --> 01:01:13,936
is way over $500 million dollars, OK?

1157
01:01:13,936 --> 01:01:18,817
Where is his money?
As of 2003, 2004 --

1158
01:01:18,817 --> 01:01:23,441
and this is based on direct, 
first/second-hand information

1159
01:01:23,441 --> 01:01:24,991
from people within intelligence community

1160
01:01:24,991 --> 01:01:32,224
a lot of his wealth is kept in the Greek 
portion of Cyprus, the banks there.

1161
01:01:32,224 --> 01:01:36,204
And they're... so if intelligence 
agencies,

1162
01:01:36,204 --> 01:01:40,403
CIA, and even through 
counterintelligence monitoring FBI,

1163
01:01:40,403 --> 01:01:44,539
knows and has all the information


1164
01:01:44,539 --> 01:01:46,579
about where Putin keeps some 
of his wealth,

1165
01:01:46,579 --> 01:01:50,106
or if some other leader
keeps it in Dubai,

1166
01:01:50,106 --> 01:01:53,741
this ones keeps it -- let's say, 
hypothetically speaking,

1167
01:01:53,741 --> 01:01:57,070
Putin keeps it in certain banks in Malta?

1168
01:01:57,070 --> 01:01:58,683
OK? Malta is another important place.

1169
01:01:58,683 --> 01:01:59,517
Nobody talks about it,

1170
01:01:59,517 --> 01:02:04,395
but in terms of the money laundering 
and the financial operations center

1171
01:02:04,395 --> 01:02:06,294
and in Cyprus.

1172
01:02:06,294 --> 01:02:12,059
And if this were to come out in Russia -- 
how did he get this wealth, OK?

1173
01:02:12,059 --> 01:02:14,797
Because this is the nation's wealth
that leaders go and take out, right?

1174
01:02:14,797 --> 01:02:18,151
In countries like... whatever countries 
that you look at.

1175
01:02:18,151 --> 01:02:20,070
And where they are kept.

1176
01:02:20,070 --> 01:02:21,705
They can...

1177
01:02:21,705 --> 01:02:23,336
-- and this is the Operation Gladio,

1178
01:02:23,336 --> 01:02:25,335
this is the United States,
this is the UK --

1179
01:02:25,335 --> 01:02:28,969
they can make Putin a scandalous leader

1180
01:02:28,969 --> 01:02:32,429
and take away all his popularity

1181
01:02:32,429 --> 01:02:35,208
in less than a day, if they wanted to.

1182
01:02:35,208 --> 01:02:37,937
If they wanted to.

1183
01:02:38,084 --> 01:02:43,524
So you are looking at a leader, 
let's say in Russia, that has to

1184
01:02:43,524 --> 01:02:47,565
balance... has to balance two things.

1185
01:02:47,764 --> 01:02:52,641
Number one, to appeal to the 
nationalistic side of its nation

1186
01:02:52,641 --> 01:02:57,596
Because any leader of Russia has to 
kind of be tough

1187
01:02:57,596 --> 01:02:59,732
when it comes to the Western powers, 
right?

1188
01:02:59,732 --> 01:03:01,245
Because it was not that long ago

1189
01:03:01,245 --> 01:03:03,874
when Russia was the Soviet Union.

1190
01:03:03,874 --> 01:03:05,812
It was the second empire in the world.

1191
01:03:05,812 --> 01:03:09,191
It was the Western empire, and it
was the Soviet Union, OK?

1192
01:03:09,191 --> 01:03:10,704
So in order to stay in power,

1193
01:03:11,598 --> 01:03:16,960
that leader has to appeal and maintain 
that faith of the people there,

1194
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,584
that he's tough, and he can stand up.

1195
01:03:19,584 --> 01:03:21,745
He's not a butler, OK? He's not weak.

1196
01:03:21,745 --> 01:03:23,398
He can stand up to the United States.

1197
01:03:23,398 --> 01:03:26,336
He can growl and say, "Rawwwrr!" OK?

1198
01:03:26,336 --> 01:03:29,872
Or maybe bark a little bit, and say,
"Woof, woof!" OK?

1199
01:03:29,872 --> 01:03:31,474
But, he won't bite.

1200
01:03:31,474 --> 01:03:35,407
Because then that leader has 
to balance it.

1201
01:03:35,407 --> 01:03:38,452
Because we know Russia has a 
lot of corrupt people.

1202
01:03:38,452 --> 01:03:41,313
We know that. I lived there for a
year, OK?

1203
01:03:41,313 --> 01:03:46,943
And I know how a lot of top-level
KGB, former KGB people

1204
01:03:46,943 --> 01:03:51,194
got to be some of the top business
people we hear about today,

1205
01:03:51,194 --> 01:03:56,146
with hundreds of million or billion
dollars net worth.

1206
01:03:56,146 --> 01:03:59,162
So that... you need a leader that 
can growl,

1207
01:03:59,162 --> 01:04:02,509
that can bark a little bit when the 
situation arises,

1208
01:04:02,509 --> 01:04:07,303
and appeal to his people's 
nationalistic tendencies.

1209
01:04:07,303 --> 01:04:09,671
They still have that pride, Russians.

1210
01:04:09,671 --> 01:04:13,374
But yet, do it to a certain degree,

1211
01:04:13,374 --> 01:04:16,411
and not totally piss off and totally 
stand up to

1212
01:04:16,411 --> 01:04:20,118
the Western nations that have 
the blackmail power.

1213
01:04:20,118 --> 01:04:23,455
That have the power to expose him, OK?

1214
01:04:23,455 --> 01:04:26,735
That is, I believe, what we see 
with Putin.

1215
01:04:26,735 --> 01:04:30,152
We do see some really 
nice-looking growling,

1216
01:04:30,152 --> 01:04:31,819
and a little woof-woof,

1217
01:04:31,819 --> 01:04:33,668
but Putin is not going to bite.

1218
01:04:33,668 --> 01:04:36,917
And as long as Putin is in this position,

1219
01:04:36,917 --> 01:04:40,786
I don't believe that we are going to 
see a full-blown war with Russia.

1220
01:04:40,786 --> 01:04:45,457
It's not gonna happen, because 
another thing you should look at is,

1221
01:04:45,457 --> 01:04:46,936
ask yourself,

1222
01:04:46,936 --> 01:04:48,406
and I'm gonna ask, because you both

1223
01:04:48,406 --> 01:04:52,211
are experts with this whole area
and the region,

1224
01:04:52,211 --> 01:04:59,067
how come Russia really hasn't done 
anything in the past 15 years

1225
01:04:59,067 --> 01:05:05,541
when the United States and NATO 
has been closing in to Russia's borders

1226
01:05:05,541 --> 01:05:08,317
by taking over Azerbaijan,

1227
01:05:08,317 --> 01:05:11,838
you know, until last year, Manas, 
Kyrgyzstan;

1228
01:05:11,838 --> 01:05:14,589
Georgia, OK?

1229
01:05:14,589 --> 01:05:19,816
And you start looking at all this,
and say, "Whoa!"

1230
01:05:19,816 --> 01:05:20,913
Think about it!

1231
01:05:20,913 --> 01:05:26,851
Why, for the past 14, 15 years, 
Russia hasn't become really antsy.

1232
01:05:26,851 --> 01:05:29,406
Saying, "Well, these are my 
backdoor neighbors."

1233
01:05:29,406 --> 01:05:31,218
"They're right there on my border."

1234
01:05:31,218 --> 01:05:32,763
Think about it: why not?

1235
01:05:32,763 --> 01:05:35,249
Let me put it on the other hand and say,

1236
01:05:35,249 --> 01:05:36,477
what would happen...

1237
01:05:36,477 --> 01:05:41,081
imagine, what would happen if Russia
starts building closer relationship

1238
01:05:41,081 --> 01:05:43,376
-- business relationship; militaristically, 
relationship --

1239
01:05:43,376 --> 01:05:44,777
with Mexico,

1240
01:05:44,777 --> 01:05:47,913
and starts coming to Mexico 
and put a huge base there

1241
01:05:47,913 --> 01:05:52,488
with 15,000 boots on the ground 
in the base, with Mexico?

1242
01:05:52,488 --> 01:05:53,650
Oh, it would be chaos!

1243
01:05:53,650 --> 01:05:56,297
Can you imagine?

1244
01:05:56,297 --> 01:05:59,337
First of all, we would not, as United 
States, let it get to that point, right?

1245
01:05:59,337 --> 01:06:02,625
And even as a notion would arise,

1246
01:06:02,625 --> 01:06:07,206
we would start using what power we
have with Mexico, right?

1247
01:06:07,206 --> 01:06:09,494
And do everything: that would not happen.

1248
01:06:09,494 --> 01:06:11,969
It would not happen. Not...

1249
01:06:11,969 --> 01:06:13,232
or in Canada, OK?

1250
01:06:13,232 --> 01:06:14,603
Or even let's go further:

1251
01:06:14,603 --> 01:06:16,999
what would happen if, Russia says,

1252
01:06:16,999 --> 01:06:18,330
"Now I'm gonna go and put a base,"

1253
01:06:18,330 --> 01:06:20,090
"because I have now put this 
relationship,"

1254
01:06:20,090 --> 01:06:23,097
because a lot of these nations, 
all you have to do is make a contract,

1255
01:06:23,097 --> 01:06:25,217
business contract for $15 billion 
dollars,

1256
01:06:25,217 --> 01:06:26,740
you have the country and its leader.

1257
01:06:26,740 --> 01:06:29,787
And I'm gonna put it in Panama, OK? 
Where the canal is. ;

1258
01:06:29,787 --> 01:06:32,381
Put myself strategically in that 
situation.

1259
01:06:32,381 --> 01:06:35,387
Can you <i>imagine</i> that being allowed?

1260
01:06:35,387 --> 01:06:38,733
It wouldn't even come <i>close</i>
to implementation.

1261
01:06:38,733 --> 01:06:42,005
Now, let's go back to the other side.

1262
01:06:42,005 --> 01:06:44,070
How come, for the last 15 years,

1263
01:06:44,070 --> 01:06:50,095
Russia has not made a peep, sound, 
about the United States, NATO,

1264
01:06:50,095 --> 01:06:53,818
going and putting all these bases in all
these countries right along its borders?

1265
01:06:53,818 --> 01:06:54,715
Why?

1266
01:06:54,715 --> 01:06:55,212
[laughter]

1267
01:06:55,212 --> 01:06:56,669
(Pearse) I actually don't know,

1268
01:06:56,669 --> 01:06:58,214
because I see it as...

1269
01:06:58,214 --> 01:07:01,167
with Abkhazia and now South Ossetia,

1270
01:07:01,167 --> 01:07:05,102
that Russia might sort of be saying, 
"If you're gonna keep moving,"

1271
01:07:05,102 --> 01:07:07,152
"Then we'll take these little tiny 
areas,"

1272
01:07:07,152 --> 01:07:09,924
"And what are the Georgians going to do?"

1273
01:07:09,924 --> 01:07:12,344
But I don't know. I'd like to hear your...

1274
01:07:12,344 --> 01:07:13,169
(Sibel) That's right.

1275
01:07:13,169 --> 01:07:16,857
But that would be similar, it would
be parallel to saying,

1276
01:07:16,857 --> 01:07:22,878
we would let Russia to come and 
put this bases in, let's say, in Mexico,

1277
01:07:22,878 --> 01:07:26,920
and then if Russia starts coming 
towards Texas

1278
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,056
and do something right along 
the Texas border,

1279
01:07:30,056 --> 01:07:32,415
then US may flex its muscle.

1280
01:07:32,415 --> 01:07:35,244
But we would never let that happen 
in the first place,

1281
01:07:35,244 --> 01:07:38,058
to put ourselves in that vulnerable
situation.

1282
01:07:38,058 --> 01:07:43,767
And even the stupidest Russian 
general, Russian strategic analyst,

1283
01:07:43,767 --> 01:07:46,010
they would know from 15 years ago

1284
01:07:46,010 --> 01:07:50,543
that putting these bases by US and
NATO in Kyrgyzstan and Azerbaijan,

1285
01:07:50,543 --> 01:07:56,185
that would definitely lead to what 
we saw happening with Ukraine, OK?

1286
01:07:56,185 --> 01:08:00,917
Because the preparation for this
started taking place in mid-'90s.

1287
01:08:00,917 --> 01:08:03,289
When after the fall of the Soviet Union,

1288
01:08:03,289 --> 01:08:08,060
we started seeing with Eastern Europe 
and all these nations,

1289
01:08:08,060 --> 01:08:10,140
we're gonna get closer 
and closer and closer:

1290
01:08:10,140 --> 01:08:13,208
during this entire period 
of 20 years, almost,

1291
01:08:13,208 --> 01:08:15,470
Russia and Russian leaders...

1292
01:08:15,470 --> 01:08:18,674
and we know what kind of Russian 
leaders we had even before Putin, right?

1293
01:08:18,674 --> 01:08:21,300
Gorbachev? Very nationalistic, you think?

1294
01:08:21,300 --> 01:08:26,362
Russia sat there and let the 
United States and NATO

1295
01:08:26,362 --> 01:08:27,979
closing up on it, right?

1296
01:08:27,979 --> 01:08:32,538
And closing in, closing in, and 
now we saw the stuff with Ukraine,

1297
01:08:32,538 --> 01:08:34,577
and then we're gonna be seeing
with Georgia.

1298
01:08:34,577 --> 01:08:36,168
But it was allowed to happen.

1299
01:08:36,168 --> 01:08:39,110
They didn't stand up and say, 
"Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa!"

1300
01:08:39,110 --> 01:08:41,762
"Over my dead body! You're not coming 
this close!"

1301
01:08:41,762 --> 01:08:43,080
They didn't.

1302
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:47,009
Meaning, Russia never went to war 
for any of these places,

1303
01:08:47,009 --> 01:08:50,695
the colonizations that we have been 
putting in place in that region.

1304
01:08:50,695 --> 01:08:52,557
We didn't need to have any war 
with Russia.

1305
01:08:52,557 --> 01:08:55,961
We didn't even have any kind of
a posturing war with Russia.

1306
01:08:55,961 --> 01:08:58,315
It happened, very easily. Smooth sail.

1307
01:08:58,315 --> 01:09:01,150
Thus, this is why I'm thinking

1308
01:09:01,150 --> 01:09:06,275
that the chances of having a full-blown
war with Russia is highly unlikely,

1309
01:09:06,275 --> 01:09:12,079
<i>unless</i>, unless, we have been 
reading the notion and the fact

1310
01:09:12,079 --> 01:09:15,614
that there is a revival of nationalism 
in Russia.

1311
01:09:15,614 --> 01:09:22,246
That people, they're... the segment,
the nationalistic segment saying, OK,

1312
01:09:22,246 --> 01:09:25,527
initially, at the end of Cold War, I went 
to Russia.

1313
01:09:25,527 --> 01:09:26,621
I lived there for almost a year.

1314
01:09:26,621 --> 01:09:30,046
It was this huge desire 
of Westernization,

1315
01:09:30,046 --> 01:09:32,011
especially in Saint Petersburg
and Moscow.

1316
01:09:32,011 --> 01:09:37,102
I arrived in Moscow from Saint P, 
because my base was in Saint Petersburg,

1317
01:09:37,102 --> 01:09:39,581
on the day that the first McDonald's 
opened In Moscow,

1318
01:09:39,581 --> 01:09:42,060
in this big center there.

1319
01:09:42,060 --> 01:09:44,540
And as we were approaching

1320
01:09:44,540 --> 01:09:46,916
that downtown section where 
McDonald's opened,

1321
01:09:46,916 --> 01:09:49,452
the traffic was just stood still.

1322
01:09:49,452 --> 01:09:53,528
They had this line -- and it was a
very big McDonald's building --

1323
01:09:53,528 --> 01:09:59,430
there was this line that wrapped around 
this McDonald's building for the opening

1324
01:09:59,430 --> 01:10:04,286
that was, like, going around about 
14, 15 times.

1325
01:10:04,286 --> 01:10:07,222
And if you would stand them up in 
one linear line,

1326
01:10:07,222 --> 01:10:12,167
you would see almost quarter mile of
a line in front of the first McDonald's.

1327
01:10:12,167 --> 01:10:15,544
It was a huge deal, OK?

1328
01:10:15,544 --> 01:10:17,346
I mean, it was...

1329
01:10:17,346 --> 01:10:23,017
it was during the shock stage of the
Soviet Union disappearing.

1330
01:10:23,017 --> 01:10:24,992
People didn't know what to think.

1331
01:10:24,992 --> 01:10:27,793
They had this desire of openness, 
they can wear the...

1332
01:10:27,793 --> 01:10:30,312
they can have lipstick. They can go 
and buy this lipstick.

1333
01:10:30,312 --> 01:10:32,227
You don't have to buy it from the
black market.

1334
01:10:32,227 --> 01:10:36,032
And then the country was saturated 
with all these vultures

1335
01:10:36,032 --> 01:10:37,739
from the US and from Europe.

1336
01:10:37,739 --> 01:10:41,450
Who were there to take away things 
quickly, while things were cheap.

1337
01:10:41,450 --> 01:10:44,468
There was this US group that was buying

1338
01:10:44,468 --> 01:10:46,916
the high-value downtown real estate.

1339
01:10:46,916 --> 01:10:48,929
There was no regulation.

1340
01:10:48,929 --> 01:10:50,940
I mean, it was total chaos,

1341
01:10:50,940 --> 01:10:53,184
and the Western nations were
taking advantage of it.

1342
01:10:53,184 --> 01:10:55,184
They were just placing themselves,

1343
01:10:55,184 --> 01:10:56,770
they were putting their boots, 
business boots, on the ground.

1344
01:10:58,356 --> 01:10:59,942
But the Russians were just too baffled.

1345
01:10:59,942 --> 01:11:02,915
They were excited about all the 
Western things.

1346
01:11:02,915 --> 01:11:07,232
They were a bit shocked: they couldn't 
believe that the Soviet Union was over.

1347
01:11:07,232 --> 01:11:11,891
And so that era of shock and awe for them

1348
01:11:11,891 --> 01:11:16,124
started kind of wearing off around 2002, 
2003.

1349
01:11:16,124 --> 01:11:20,510
Now, gradually, we are seeing, to a 
certain degree,

1350
01:11:20,510 --> 01:11:25,187
this revival of nationalism in Russia, 
by people who are...

1351
01:11:25,187 --> 01:11:26,858
and maybe ex-generals,

1352
01:11:26,858 --> 01:11:31,077
maybe some other ex-intelligence
figures from KGB era

1353
01:11:31,420 --> 01:11:35,576
that are seeing the fact that their 
mother nation is being surrounded.

1354
01:11:35,576 --> 01:11:38,295
And they are looking, maybe, at Putin,

1355
01:11:38,295 --> 01:11:40,402
and saying,
"How could you let this happen?"

1356
01:11:40,402 --> 01:11:43,313
OK? And it's the Russian pride.

1357
01:11:43,313 --> 01:11:47,272
So if, for example, Putin is toppled,

1358
01:11:47,272 --> 01:11:53,938
and we see a more real, nationalistic 
leader come into power,

1359
01:11:53,938 --> 01:11:58,485
then, sure: I would say, then it would be
likely to see some direct confrontation

1360
01:11:58,485 --> 01:12:03,692
with Russia. But as of now, with Putin, 
with his limited woof and bark,

1361
01:12:03,692 --> 01:12:06,823
I would say no: it's not likely. It's not.

1362
01:12:06,823 --> 01:12:11,203
If it were going to happen, we would
have seen it even with Ukraine.

1363
01:12:11,203 --> 01:12:12,629
(Pearse) Yeah.

1364
01:12:12,629 --> 01:12:14,801
We just saw some level of posturing.

1365
01:12:14,801 --> 01:12:20,747
And it made him look taller, 
and his rating went up.

1366
01:12:20,747 --> 01:12:22,570
But then I was reading just last week,

1367
01:12:22,570 --> 01:12:25,183
that it's been going gradually 
down again.

1368
01:12:25,183 --> 01:12:27,168
Because it gave hope

1369
01:12:27,168 --> 01:12:29,928
to that nationalistic feeling 
on the ground in Russia

1370
01:12:29,928 --> 01:12:32,982
that yeah, they're... our leader is
standing up!

1371
01:12:32,982 --> 01:12:34,404
We're not gonna let this happen!

1372
01:12:34,404 --> 01:12:35,933
But, it happened.

1373
01:12:35,933 --> 01:12:39,501
Really, with Ukraine, if you see, 
it really happened.

1374
01:12:39,501 --> 01:12:44,836
And I think it's also important to note 
that at the end of the day,

1375
01:12:44,836 --> 01:12:48,368
many of these people, while they might 
be confrontational in public,

1376
01:12:48,368 --> 01:12:51,461
are essentially working towards the 
same end goals

1377
01:12:51,461 --> 01:12:55,196
and, you know, the really, really 
independent leaders...

1378
01:12:55,196 --> 01:13:00,479
-- people like Gaddafi or the former 
President of the Ivory Coast --

1379
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:02,059
you know, those people are taken out.

1380
01:13:02,059 --> 01:13:04,187
They're really... they're just murdered 
and overthrown.

1381
01:13:04,187 --> 01:13:06,938
You know, any sort of independent 
leader like that.

1382
01:13:06,938 --> 01:13:09,182
So you know, you do have to 
wonder sometimes.

1383
01:13:09,182 --> 01:13:12,427
But I know we've been talking now 
for quite a while,

1384
01:13:12,427 --> 01:13:14,311
and Tom, you've been a little quiet,

1385
01:13:14,311 --> 01:13:16,146
so before we wrap up, Tom,

1386
01:13:16,146 --> 01:13:18,658
do you have any quick questions 
you'd like to ask Sibel?

1387
01:13:18,658 --> 01:13:23,008
(Tom) No, but I am thinking 
about this subject

1388
01:13:23,008 --> 01:13:24,672
and this question that you've raised,

1389
01:13:24,672 --> 01:13:33,078
and I'm not 100 percent convinced
-- I'll say that much -- but...

1390
01:13:33,078 --> 01:13:35,917
it is an interesting question.

1391
01:13:35,917 --> 01:13:38,226
Maybe that would be a good place 
to kick off

1392
01:13:38,226 --> 01:13:39,820
a further conversation on this,

1393
01:13:39,820 --> 01:13:45,117
because we've perhaps got to the end
of our conversation

1394
01:13:45,117 --> 01:13:46,853
about <i>The Lone Gladio</i> per se

1395
01:13:46,853 --> 01:13:50,501
but a lot of this stuff that's spinning 
out from this conversation, I think,

1396
01:13:50,501 --> 01:13:54,459
is certainly worthy of greater
discussion.

1397
01:13:54,459 --> 01:13:58,109
And I'd be interested to see 
how our differing approaches

1398
01:13:58,109 --> 01:14:00,640
kind of, how we could marry
them together,

1399
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:05,142
and at least delineate differences 
between our perspectives on this.

1400
01:14:05,142 --> 01:14:07,690
so, I mean, yeah. Perhaps we'll leave 
it here,

1401
01:14:07,690 --> 01:14:11,884
and hopefully in the near future, 
the three of us can explore this again.

1402
01:14:11,884 --> 01:14:14,096
Because I do think we're starting 
to, now,

1403
01:14:14,096 --> 01:14:16,789
get into some really
interesting territory.

1404
01:14:16,789 --> 01:14:19,663
But again, I'd like to thank both 
of you guys

1405
01:14:19,663 --> 01:14:22,008
for joining me today. It was a 
wonderful conversation.

1406
01:14:22,008 --> 01:14:24,600
(Pearse) And quickly, Sibel: 
where can they find

1407
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:26,893
<i>The Lone Gladio</i>? Where can 
they find your work?

1408
01:14:26,893 --> 01:14:31,717
(Sibel) Sure. <i>The Lone Gladio</i> is 
available via Amazon,

1409
01:14:31,717 --> 01:14:35,067
both print book and also 
electronically through Kindle.

1410
01:14:35,067 --> 01:14:38,507
but people who don't want to 
deal with Amazon,

1411
01:14:38,507 --> 01:14:43,748
they can purchase it directly from 
the website TheLoneGladio.com

1412
01:14:43,748 --> 01:14:46,280
and they can have, even, signed copies.

1413
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:51,053
So those are the two top places, 
and easiest places,

1414
01:14:51,053 --> 01:14:55,267
for people to obtain, purchase,
<i>The Lone Gladio</i>

1415
01:14:55,267 --> 01:14:58,653
But even if they just go to 
TheLoneGladio.com website,

1416
01:14:58,653 --> 01:15:00,733
they will see the links from there

1417
01:15:00,733 --> 01:15:03,507
to all the other channels where
they can get the book,

1418
01:15:03,507 --> 01:15:05,260
either electronically or in print.

1419
01:15:05,260 --> 01:15:07,219
(Pearse) And Tom, I'm sure that almost 
all my listeners

1420
01:15:07,219 --> 01:15:09,178
know where to find your work,

1421
01:15:09,178 --> 01:15:11,137
but we've always got new people coming,

1422
01:15:11,137 --> 01:15:13,180
so please, tell everybody about 
your website,

1423
01:15:13,180 --> 01:15:15,557
your podcast, and your novel as well.

1424
01:15:15,557 --> 01:15:18,103
Or -- excuse me! -- not a novel:
book. [laughs]

1425
01:15:18,103 --> 01:15:22,765
(Tom) Sure. I mean, my main website 
is SpyCulture.com,

1426
01:15:22,765 --> 01:15:28,388
and on there you'll find links to my book 
about 7/7, <i>Secret Spies and 7/7.</i>

1427
01:15:28,388 --> 01:15:32,561
I also do an about fortnightly podcast
called <i>ClandesTime</i>

1428
01:15:32,561 --> 01:15:34,563
that's available on <i>Spy Culture</i>
and on YouTube.

1429
01:15:34,563 --> 01:15:37,424
So anybody who hasn't already 
checked that out, please do.

1430
01:15:37,424 --> 01:15:42,375
(Pearse) All right. well, thank you both, 
again, for joining,

1431
01:15:42,375 --> 01:15:42,940
and I hope we can pick this up
again soon.

1432
01:15:42,940 --> 01:15:44,984
But thanks so much.

1433
01:15:44,984 --> 01:15:46,953
(Sibel) Thank you. Sorry for dominating
the conversation.

1434
01:15:46,953 --> 01:15:50,285
So next time, I really want to hear 
your perspectives on this.

1435
01:15:50,285 --> 01:15:51,951
As I said, with some of the answers,

1436
01:15:51,951 --> 01:15:54,917
I have had only hypotheses 
or some theories to offer,

1437
01:15:54,917 --> 01:15:56,634
not as concrete fact,

1438
01:15:56,634 --> 01:15:58,629
so I would love to get your opinions 
on that.

1439
01:15:58,629 --> 01:16:00,441
And also, thank you for the opportunity.

1440
01:16:00,441 --> 01:16:02,120
it was great, thank you.

1441
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:05,963
(Tom) Thank you Pierce, and thank you 
Sibel. it's been great talking to both of you.

1442
01:16:05,963 --> 01:16:08,858
(Pearse) OK, everybody.

1443
01:16:08,858 --> 01:16:11,753
So, that about does it for this episode of <i>Porkins Policy Radio.</i>

1444
01:16:11,753 --> 01:16:14,650
Thank you all for joining me and
listening to this podcast.

1445
01:16:14,650 --> 01:16:17,031
And if you enjoyed this and you'd 
like to hear some more,

1446
01:16:17,031 --> 01:16:20,762
then please visit 
PorkinsPolicyReview.wordpress.com

1447
01:16:20,762 --> 01:16:23,974
And there you can find all of the
podcasts free for download.

1448
01:16:23,974 --> 01:16:26,510
you can, of course, find them on 
YouTube also,

1449
01:16:26,510 --> 01:16:30,785
and if you use YouTube, then please, 
please subscribe to my YouTube channel,

1450
01:16:30,785 --> 01:16:35,260
which is YouTube.com/1138porkins

1451
01:16:35,260 --> 01:16:39,551
And also definitely follow me on 
Twitter @porkinspolicy,

1452
01:16:39,551 --> 01:16:42,642
and you can also follow the podcast 
through the RSS feed,

1453
01:16:42,642 --> 01:16:44,864
and also through email blasts as well.

1454
01:16:44,864 --> 01:16:49,390
And I just have a few quick programming 
notes before I completely sign off.

1455
01:16:49,390 --> 01:16:53,911
Just want to thank everybody who listened
to the second episode

1456
01:16:53,911 --> 01:16:55,512
of me and Christoph Germann's 
new podcast,

1457
01:16:55,512 --> 01:16:57,691
<i>Porkins Great Game</i>.

1458
01:16:57,691 --> 01:17:02,463
We've gotten tremendous feedback 
and lots of hits on that episode.

1459
01:17:02,463 --> 01:17:07,089
So I'm really grateful for everybody
that's been listening to it

1460
01:17:07,089 --> 01:17:10,485
and putting it up on social media, 
and whatnot like that.

1461
01:17:10,485 --> 01:17:11,574
And it's been really great.

1462
01:17:11,574 --> 01:17:15,449
And again, you can find that on the 
main site, as well as on YouTube.

1463
01:17:15,449 --> 01:17:18,062
And I just want to say one other 
quick thing.

1464
01:17:18,062 --> 01:17:19,859
And I know that I made a promise...

1465
01:17:19,859 --> 01:17:22,936
I believe it was actually the last time
I spoke to Sibel

1466
01:17:22,936 --> 01:17:27,512
that I would have two episodes up 
on <i>Porkins Policy Radio</i>.

1467
01:17:27,512 --> 01:17:29,132
One dealing with Scientology,

1468
01:17:29,132 --> 01:17:31,547
and one dealing with Jim Jones 
and The People's Temple.

1469
01:17:31,547 --> 01:17:34,450
Well, I just want to say that I have 
not forgotten about that,

1470
01:17:34,450 --> 01:17:38,065
and I have been doing quite a bit
of research on Jim Jones.

1471
01:17:38,065 --> 01:17:40,206
And I think that'll probably be 
the episode,

1472
01:17:40,206 --> 01:17:43,467
the next episode for 
<i>Porkins Policy Radio.</i>

1473
01:17:43,467 --> 01:17:48,095
So definitely stay tuned, and look out 
for that one on the horizon. 


1474
01:17:48,095 --> 01:17:52,805
And again, we will be speaking with 
both Sibel and Tom again very soon,

1475
01:17:52,805 --> 01:17:56,173
and expand on some of the issues that 
we discussed, again, in this podcast.

1476
01:17:56,173 --> 01:17:58,794
So with that, I just want to 
thank everybody.

1477
01:17:58,794 --> 01:18:02,749
And again, if you liked this podcast, 
please tell a friend.

1478
01:18:02,749 --> 01:18:06,105
Email it to someone, put it up on 
your social media, whatever:

1479
01:18:06,105 --> 01:18:10,527
just help spread the word, because... and
I just want to say, the fans have been...

1480
01:18:10,527 --> 01:18:12,387
the listeners are just fantastic.

1481
01:18:12,387 --> 01:18:14,725
Everyone has been promoting the show,

1482
01:18:14,725 --> 01:18:16,550
and it's really fantastic.

1483
01:18:16,550 --> 01:18:18,790
And a quick shout-out to James Corbett,

1484
01:18:18,790 --> 01:18:23,298
who included this podcast and me 
and Christoph's podcast

1485
01:18:23,298 --> 01:18:29,390
as one of the podcasts that he listens
to in his Reddit AMA.

1486
01:18:29,390 --> 01:18:31,273
So that was very cool and very awesome,

1487
01:18:31,273 --> 01:18:32,705
and thanks so much, James.

1488
01:18:32,705 --> 01:18:34,708
So, I think we're there, we're gonna
leave it,

1489
01:18:34,708 --> 01:18:35,914
and I will be talking to you very soon.

1490
01:18:35,914 --> 01:18:54,663
♪ [ Philip Glass – “Mishima/Closing”
(<i>Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters</i>) ] ♪

1491
01:21:20,544 --> 01:21:25,163
[Subtitled by "Adjuvant"]
[CC-BY 4.0]