Windows Weekly 484: Microsoft for Life!

It's time for Windows weekly with

Paul Thurrott and Mary-Jo Foley.

Microsoft wants you for life,

and their ready to kill the next screen.

Paul is excited for the new Xbox and

Mary-Jo talks about Microsoft's

bad cloud day. Window's Weekly is next.

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This is Window's Weekly with Paul Thurrott

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September 21, 2016 Microsoft for life!

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It's time for Windows weekly with
Paul Thurrott and Mary-Jo Foley.

I'm Father Robert Ballecer in for
Leo Laporte

who is currently looking for the answers

to life, the universe and everything

acrossed the pond. Of course Paul Thurrott

is the guru behind Thurrott.com the

previewer of news, reviews and analyzes

for tech enthusiasts. Mary-Jo Foley the

mastermind behind ZDnet All About

Microsoft blog. Together their here to

bring a light to the deep cave of

Microsoft news, like a over charged light

bulb battery exploding in the darkness.

Paul, Mary-Jo so good to have ya.

(Mary-Jo laughs)

(Paul) It's like your introducing

Bond villains there.

(Mary-Jo) I know I was like Wow!

The masterminds.

(Paul) Master of Disaster Mary-Jo Foley.

(Father Ballecer) Do you have a cat?

and can you do this with your fingers?

- I think I need that on a business card.

If I still used business cards I would.

That is one of those strange things.

At these conventions that we go to
these shows

we all do the business card thing and

I've even got down the whole Asian thing

of handing like this and a bit of a bow.

But, um, those collect dust afterwards,

I almost never use them.

- No, No! I don't even have one.

- I was going to say I think I have some,

but I've never brought them anywhere.

-Wait!, You two go to shows, don't you?

It's kind of a thing, it's how you say
hello, right?

- uh

-Well now people just say, "where can

I find you?" and I just day "All About

Microsoft"

- Mary-Jo and I just bump our phones

together and say "Power twins activate."

(Mary-Jo laughs)

- No, I don't know every once in a while

someone will hand me a business cards

and I have a momentary bit of confusion,

like I don't have one of these things,

or I don't have it with me.

You know I feel, it's like a weird moment.

I feel like I need to give them something

in return, it's like someone comes over

with a gift and you don't have anything

to give them.

-Yeah, that's what it is. I know
I'm handing

out cards like they are candy, but it's

just because I want to give you something.

It's like thank you very much for
your time,

uh, here's something, and stop talking

to me now.

(laughing) yes, right!

(Paul) I've met the social obligation

(Father Ballencer) And if you actually
want to see

where this is gonna be put up you
can contact

ma at this other wise I'm just gonna
assume

that you just don't care (Mary-Jo) Yep
(laughter)

(Paul) I needed a resume for something,

you know, like a year ago or more, I. . .

Thurrott.com, what do you mean I...?

(laughing) I don't keep track of my

accomplishments, I'm not even sure what

I would do with that.

(Father Ballencer) Our Field producer,

Colene Goldstein, she's actually

really good LinkedIn. Before she
hands over

her card, she'll just say can I find
you on

LinkedIn and she's just building up
this huge

network of all these people that she's
connected

to and she says that's far more efficient

than trying to take a card and then
remember

where it came from and who they

represented six weeks ago.

Because remember a lot of the people that

you meet don't actually work for
that company

they work for a PR company that represents

the company that you are talking to.
(Paul) Right.

and you won't remember who that is unless

you actually write it on the back of
that card

and even then sometimes you don't remember

- I have to look at the lower third to
remember

Mary-jo's name. (laughing) you know I'm

really not good at that kind of thing.

(Mary-Jo) He's bad at this thing.

(Fa. Ballencer) I have to look down here

If I don't see that?

(Paul) Hi! I'm Fr. Rob, What does
that say?

(laughing) Sir Foley, no let's not
do that.

I'll right let's get away from social
convention

cuz we've got some pretty spectacular
windows news

who's got this first one, because
eventually

Microsoft has finally "oh! that's right
we're not

offering the free version anymore,
maybe we

should kill that nag screen"

Mary-Jo - Yeah I can start it off a bit.
Um,

Yesterday, the 20th, Microsoft put out a

KB article that said "Hey we're finally
going to

push through Windows update, an update

that takes away the Windows, get
Windows 10 app.

So if you remember July 29th was the
actual day

the offer to get a free Windows 10 ended.

And at that time they said it might
take us

a little while to faze this out
because we've

so thoroughly inundated everyone
with this app

and the promotion. So actually the real

day when this ended at least when
the app ended

was yesterday. And it's starting to roll

through the Windows update. It replaces

the get Windows 10 app and it goes away.

But the weird complication
not complication

but the weird kind of coincidence is

you can actually still get Windows 10
as free upgrade

You just have to use your existing
Windows 7

or 8.1 product key and you can still
unlock the free

upgrade, which is something Microsoft
is not

actively advertising, but Paul has been
verifying it daily.

(Paul) well weekly

(Mary-Jo) I've been asking him
is it still up

(Fa. Bellencer) Cuz, I was told
that if you do

the get Windows 10 thing and then
you roll it

back you're always set you can always
re-download it

(Paul) Oh! yeah, yeah this is for
new installs.

In other words you have never
done this before

you have a key you can do a clean
Windows 10

right now and it would still work.

(Fa. Bellencer) Wait! What? That's not how

it's suppose to work.

(Mary-jo) Yep
(Paul) I know, and by the way

one day it won't, I mean maybe
this weekend

or the weekend after that, someday,
I'm gonna

wake up, I'm gonna test it and
it's not gonna work

you know it's just.. It's going to
happen eventually.

But, um, I wrote an article about this

not working probably a month ago
in anticipation

of it not working and it's just
kept working

the things been sitting here at
my desktop since

August. (Fa Ballencer) So you just try and

do an update everyday just to make
sure it still goes?

(Paul) not everyday and least once a week.

- Now does this

(Mary-Jo) Yesterday, I said to him can you

still do it? And he's like, Yep you can!

-So does this now increase the
value of the

Windows 10 upgrade, because now
you can't get

it except maybe if you know this
super secret,

now do people actually want it?

(Paul) I.. No.. I suppose..
I think the issue

is.. Well if you wanted to save some money

I suppose you could go buy Windows 8.1

product key and you know, well you

wouldn't actually buy Windows 8.1

I should say, it's possibly you can
buy a copy of it

somewhere cheaper because nobody wants it

anymore and than you could upgrade
now for less money

than buying Windows 10. Or maybe you just

had keys for some reason, maybe a
company that has

keys allotted or you bought the
package version

at some point, maybe you bought
the Windows 7

family pack back in the day and you
only used

two of the three keys and you've got
an extra

one sitting around for what ever reason.

If you have a key it will work. If you

got them from TechNet that will work.

um, and someday it won't. So, we'll see.

-Microsoft won't say when they think

it will no longer work in fact they aren't

really publicly saying that it still works

if you ask them, they just don't answer

when you ask about this.

And I assume it's the same thing
that they said

about the get Window 10 app

that it might take some time for them

to shut it off. But the other
theory is they

are just leaving it open for those laggers

who didn't get around to updating by
July 29th

and they can say to them "You know what,
psst

by the way."

- It doesn't hurt anybody, I think
that's the

point that if they are people out there
in the world

with Windows 7 install that they've
never done

Microsoft would much rather see them be on

Windows 10, if they're going to do a
new Windows

install. Why wouldn't they want that.

- I can also see this heading off a lot of

complaints from people who said "oh man

I tried to upgrade and I totally forgot
and I

did it in August and it didn't
work anymore"

No that's not actually a valid excuse.

You know September 21st, October 21st,

It's starting to get to the point where

you can't pretend you've been

procrastinating and than just forgot
I mean,

You know at some point it's just. . .

Their just leaving it open, its fine.

I have no problem with this.

- This is actually a huge opportunity
for us

because I know Alex has been trying to

update the Tri caster to Windows 10

(Paul) Actually Padre, Let me correct you

you shouldn't run Windows update on the

Tri caster, New Tech doesn't say
you should

So I really hope that nothing. . .

Oh Crap! (Laughing)

- This is what happens, You get a
nag screen

in the middle of Windows weekly

that's oddly blocking me out entirely,

that's different (Mary-Jo) It is

You know we're going to have to live
with this

for the next 20 -30 minutes because

unfortunately, click the initiated
and it'll

take that much time to install and

uninstall it. (Mary-Jo) They'll see
us though

we're off to the sides. Not when you zoom

on us, but the big picture you can see us.

(Paul) How do I know that this
graphic hasn't

been used more gleefully on
Macbreak weekly

and whatever morning show I'm sure you do?

(Fa Ballencer) Uh, this weeks it's Google,

I think this is actually the
new title card

for Floss Weekly. Um Floss Weekly will

never reserve your copy.

Do either of you still have Windows 7,
8 & 10

Machines in your environment?

(Mary-Jo) Yes, I have 7,

(Fa Ballencer) So no 10 at all?

(Mary-Jo) Yeah I have 10 and 7, but no 8

(Fa Ballencer) Really? I have 7, 8.1
and 10

(Mary-Jo) You have all of them.

(Fa Ballencer) Well because I mean 10

does still kill some of my USB devices

so my production machines have to stay 8

and I have one laptop and that just works

better at 7.

(Mary-Jo) I just have the desktop I still

use because it's just an older machine,

the Dell that I've had for awhile
I just left

it on 7, cuz I'm like Eh, when I need to

replace the machine Ill just get

Windows 10 machine.

(Paul) But what about all those
gotta have it

apps you can't run?

-Um?!

(Fa Ballencer) Now a quick question,

this really did hurt Microsoft's
reputation,

right? I mean Yes, That number of how

many deployments they have of Windows 10

is forever going to be asterisk.

People said "Well how many of those were

accidental upgrades or how many of those

were installs and then rollbacks almost

immediately. This. . Will people
forget this

or will Windows 10 upgrade nag screen

be the butt of jokes for the next two

decades. (Paul) Honestly I think they've

irreparably harmed their reputation with

this and not just Microsoft generally but

the reputation of Windows as well.

The forced upgrade thing was a
huge mistake

on their part and a very risky gamble and

the recent people aren't going to forget

it is because they came out and said we're

going to hit a billion within two to three

years and then right before Windows the

windows ten free upgrade ended they said

you know what we're not going to make that

goal and so even though they did that they

were unable to you know meet
this reasonable

goal, I thought, of reaching a billion

users in that timeframe.

- You know Mary Jo there's two ways to

look at this. There's one way and
this would,

I think this is where Paul lines up, there

was an executive or some marketing person

who said you know what we want to hit a

billion because it sounds like a
great number.

So let's just force this on people. The

other way to think of this is that some

engineers said you know what people

will like ten if they just try it if
we just

get it on the machine they will understand

what all the hoopla is about.

Which of those do you fall with?

- So I also, like Paul, think this was a

big mistake and the part that really

kind of riled me the most was when

Microsoft was taking the tack of saying

it's for users own good that were doing

this and you know I was like wait this is

so paternalistic How can you say what's

for my good or my mother's good who

accidently got Windows ten and
like flipped

out when she got it you know I just think

that argument didn't work. I'm happy. They

made a free upgrade available very easily

to people but I don't think they should

have rammed it down people's throat.

But it's also, I don’t know
if it qualifies

as ironic but, You know one of the kind of

contracts you enter into with Microsoft

when you do install or get Windows 10 is

you're accepting a constant stream of

upgrades and you really can't do anything

as an individual to befriend that from

happening. Least not elegantly or easily

and your introduction to this new world is

Microsoft seamlessly and inelegantly

jamming Windows 10 down your throat

you know it's it's kind of a nasty preview

of what the future holds for you when you

do this and it's just the wrong first step

you know to resent, it was a
terrible mistake

- Yeah and then the, you hiding of the way

that you would actually accept the upgrade

where people were closing the window.

That was really bad. That made like a bad

situation worse. So yeah not a good look.

- In writing about this topic today

I decided not to go back and hit on every

single little milestone in this because

frankly it's kind of depressing.

You know, when you go back to look at the

sheer amount of stuff that both of us I'm

sure have written about this get
Windows 10

thing since last year and the various ways

they changed it silently some Windows

Update, or group of Windows Updates would

go out, some of them would prevent the

blockers from, you know or the un-blockers

I guess from you know working.

some of them would change the way the

dialog looked or worked. You know in the

past when you close the window, it would

just go away but at one point when you

close the window you silently
have accepted

the upgrade and that's purposefully evil.

It's terrible.

-For me I think that hurt more
than anything

else because I understand wanting to

force out the update. Especially since

they believe it's going to be much more

secure, it's going to be much more feature

rich. But the fact that they kept playing

cat and mouse with people who just didn't

want to be nagged anymore. That's the

reputation strike it's like ok
if I went to

the trouble of removing that nag screen

then obviously I'm a savvy user if I can

do that. So the fact that you're trying to

work around what I did. Now I feel as if

we're playing Microsoft nanny state.

-Right -Yeah, yeah

A lot of times you know they keep saying

you know what, we're letting people get

around it, if they go in and edit the

registry settings. I'm like, wait a second

hold on, that's not something most people

should do. In fact, probably very few

should do it. And so when that was

like “Hey were give you an alternative

to get out of it. I was like uh, that's

not a good option.

-That's not an alternative.

–No

- I mean the funny thing they get looking

back over a year of articles
for this topic.

What I reminded myself of was in late June

one month before the free offer ended.

They finally added something to that

box that said I don't want this please

stop asking me. It took them eleven of

the twelve months to get to that point.

That's how it should have been on day one.

You know it's just uh, you just can't

recover from this. We don't know, we may

never know the psychological impact that

had on what may or may not have been

very good to Microsoft customers that day,

who upon looking for a new computer at

some time in the future may decide they

need, they are going to get a pro book

instead or a mac book or well probably not

a Linux computer that's crazy.
But you know

what I'm saying. That they're
going to look

at an iPad even or something, whatever.

And just make that decision because they

don't want to be harassed which is a

completely reasonable request. You know.

-Let's close the book on this bad chapter.

–Yeah, yeah I think so.

It's not a mulligan but it's since you say

OK you know what, you kind of hit some

of the numbers you wanted not the big one

but now actually show us that our faith in

you is not misplaced. But to be fair, we

could look at other companies in the

industry, like Google that are doing the

same sort of strong arm tactics.

Google right now is making a big push for

HTTPS, they want everything to be encypted

end to end on the internet, that's a good

goal, but some people feel that their

approach is heavy handed. Now, the new

updates to Chrome are going
to automatically

mark any site that doesn't have
HTTPS built

into it as insecure so that little icon is

going to pop up, warning people that maybe

they shouldn't visit the site.
People think

that's heavy handed, but those looking at

it say, "well this is ultimately going to

lead to a better internet." you could make

the same call here. You could say "Look,

this was heavy handed, this was

Microsoft being the worst of the nannies,

but a more secure OS ultimately is a

better experience."

-All of the goals that Microsoft had for

this were valid right. Even the
self-serving

ones you know, the notion that we would

all be better off if more of us run the

very latest version of the O. S. and were

always updated to be on that version would

make us all more secure because it's less

work for Microsoft to do to fix
the problems

you know, are going to occur down the road

Everyone benefits from that there's no. .

you can't really dispute it. But the

problem is when they say oh good, everyone

agrees? Good! Now you're all getting the

new upgrade is like whoa whoa hold on a

second, you know, you mention for example

that you have U.S.B. devices that don't

work on Windows 10. I'm sure anyone.

listening to this has some examples of

some things whatever might be, uh…

that don't work you know or some reason

whatever it may be that they couldn't

upgrade. I mean you can't. . . I don't

believe you can I mean they
tried you can't

really just jam this kind of thing down

people's throats.

-And for our few fruit flans in
the chat room

right now. Why is it that Microsoft trying

to force Windows 10 on people was a

boondoggle. Whereas another company's

decision to remove a standard
port was brave?

(Mary-Jo laughs) Courage

(Paul) Good marketing.

(Fa. Ballencer) Maybe this was just

Microsoft’s courage, and we’re all just

misunderstanding it.

-Uhm –Ok (Laughter) -Well OK

(Paul) It was courageous of them
to attempt.

(Fa. Ballencer) It was, it was. Although

I will say something I really don't like

is the fact that they've disabled
something

from 8 because if you do Windows stacked

side by side it's pretty seamless but if

you do one on top of the other there's

always a hard break as you move between

screens. In 8 you used to be able to

disable that sticky window, you just move

right through it. You can do the same

registry edit in 10 but it doesn't fix it.

That never goes away and that's why I

don't understand that, Go figure.
All right.

When we come back. We need to talk about

something a bit more cheery because we've

we've been hammering on Microsoft
so rather

than talking about a forced
Windows 10 update

I think maybe we should talk about some

Layoffs -Yeah. (laughter)
-Oh boy!

–Yay let’s get pumped. But first let's go

ahead and take a moment to thank the first

sponsor of this episode of Windows weekly.

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OK this is one of these stories that it

almost feels as if a
continuation of stories

that we've already covered but who

wants to talk about the bad news for

pink slips over at Microsoft.

(Mary-Jo) Oh wait, can we talk about the
Skype thing first.

(Fa Bellencer) OK sure. OK You know

what that's hold off on the super awesome

(Mary-Jo) I mean it's related but we can

we could kind of mix it up a little.

-The people getting pink slips got
them over Skype. (laughter)

(Mary-Jo) That would have been interesting

(Paul) Which explains why some of them

have been home. Some of them got it
seventeen times. (laughing)

(Mary-Jo) Burn, burn
(Fa Bellencer) ok Skype, let’s do Skype.

-Ok so this um, Paul should the S.M.S.
relate because you, I think you've

actually looked at it, right?

-No, well not exactly, so, Err,
how do I explain this,

but earlier this year Microsoft announced
a feature that was going to come

in the Windows 10 anniversary
update called messaging everywhere

and the idea is that you have a Windows
Phone or an Android phone

and you can use your computer to send
text messages and receive text messages

right like you can do in a Mac if you
have an iPhone as well.

And everyone was really excited about it,
some insiders started testing it

and then very late in the game they said
you know what.

Actually we're not going to put
this in Windows ten.

This makes more sense for Skype
we'll put it in the Skype preview app

but sometime later in the year they
yanked it out of Windows 10

some people were disappointed you
know because they were using it

but you know I think we can agree that
a messaging feature makes more sense for

Microsoft's messaging solution than it
does for Windows specifically so

it's going to be part of Skype. So
in the most recent Windows insider build

which was released last week I think
Microsoft's added this feature in for

the first time and now they're calling it
S.M.S. relay actually been calling

about for some time but it's a slightly
more technical and less interesting name

and the functionality is supposed to work
the same way in this initial version

however you need to have the latest fast
ring version of Windows 10 from

windows insiders. I think 14 9 23 or
something like that. And you also need

to have that same build on Windows 10
mobile it only works on those two systems

so I have both of these things
but I couldn't get it.

I'm not seeing it on my phone
I don't know why.

but the idea again is that you can from
the Skype preview app on Windows 10

for P.C.'s send and receive text messages
and so if your phone is over the corner

charging somebody sends you a text message
you get a notification on your P.C.

click on it you can reply to it right
there. It sends out over your phone

as you would expect so it's coming.
And it will come as part of Skype, right?

so we won't have to wait for the next
major version of Windows 10 to get it.

Which by the way is another one of
the advantages of putting it on Skype.

-You know what's weird though I think I
messaged you about this that I have an

Android phone. I have a Windows 10 P.C.
and I am seeing my text messages

from my phone show up on my Windows 10
P.C. and I'm not on

the insider program right!
–Which is really interesting.

-Yeah, So I think it's because of Cortana
though because I have Cortana on both

and I believe that also gives you some of
that functionality but that then

I'm like OK So is this in the future
going to be taken out of Cortana?

-Yes so, right. Actually it's kind of
confusing because this is hum,

I wrote a book about Windows 10 that I'm
still updating for the anniversary update

and one of the things I put off literally
to the very end that I will wrote right

in the last of all the new content is
phone integration because it's actually a

little convoluted there are three ways
right now that you can get information

back and forth from your phone through
Windows 10 as I understand it. One is this

new S.M.S. relay feature in the Skype
preview. One is the thing you're seeing

which is the Cortana integration but
there's also like a Windows phone

integration I will get Windows Phone
notifications in Action Center on

Windows 10that are notifications that
came from Windows 10 in the phone and so

they could be about anything it will be
like Facebook updates.

You know different things from different
apps on the phone and those things will

actually surface in Windows 10 of my P.C.
as well. So I'm still trying to kind of..

where and how all these things happen
and why you know it's interesting I have

three different phones, so I have and
Android phone like you do and I have the

Windows Phone and also an iPhone
So the iPhone doesn't really do anything

but the expectation is that you'll have a
pretty decent level of functionality

through Android if you have Windows 10
and then obviously if you have

Windows 10 mobile you would have
the best experience

because those two things would
be tightly integrated.

-You know that's something in a
feature I actually would really like

something in Windows that shows me how
the various services integrate because

it's always an crapshoot for me about what
notifications I get on what devices like

you I've got I.O.'s devices I've got
Windows devices I've got Android I think

Windows Mobile and it always, I’m never
really sure what is syncing and what's not

-It's like a roulette wheel and I just was
speaking Skype specifically, this morning

I was chatting with Brad on Skype & we're
you know we're texting back and forth

he writes, I write you know five minutes
goes by, 15 minutes and all of a sudden

one of my three phones in this case it
was my iPhone the screen lights up and

I look over and it's a Skype notification
of something. Brad had written me on Skype

about two minutes earlier. And so for
some reason that one version of the app

on that one phone lit up. It was like all
my devices or weight are in the back and

one of those are like I got it. I got it,

and it just kind of like I'm having an
active conversation in Skype on Windows.

You know why? Why would these other
things? You know how it is, if I go to my

Android phone and I turn them on right
now and I go into Skype. You know thus

waking it up which is a mistake. It's like
Jason from Friday the 13th or something

but if I do wake it up briefly it will
flash those one two three conversations

that are marked unread the conversations
I had earlier with Brad actually this one

from Twit and the conversations I had
with Mary Jo according to this version of

the app these conversations are unread.

-I know, that happens to me too. Yet when
I when I've had my Windows 10

laptop for a while I turn on you know
they all the messages filtered through

but then some show up as unread
and some show up as read.

-Yep.

-So I'm not sure what makes
both of those things happen.

-Yeah I ended up going into Windows 10
notification I just turning off everything

everything because I was so tired of
receiving the same notifications 15 times

-Yep

-Actually there's something else that I
do love the syncing across accounts

that actually does work nicely except
for the fact that at home. I've got this

monster set up with two 4K. monitors
and a bunch of little monitors around the

periphery and it tries to import those
preferences into my laptop and it doesn't

matter how many times I tell it not to do
that it. There's always an update in the,

the switch gets turned back on & suddenly
all the text on my laptop is tiny.

Because it's adjusting with what it thinks
I want to the desktop, which that's again

I want some sort of central control panel
that shows all my devices and which

settings are moving between which devices.
It sounds like that's an absolute

necessity now with all the different
devices that we use. And with all the

syncing that Microsoft trying to build
into the products. That's a necessity.

-Yeah you know obviously Microsoft doesn't
have a big presence slash

any presence in Mobile and so one of the
concerns that they have that maybe Apple

doesn't have and Google only has to a
lesser extent say with IOS Devices is the

cross-platform stuff you know Bart W on
Twitter's ask Mary-Jo and I if S.M.S.

relay is coming to the Skype apps on IOS
and Android as

well and it's a reasonable expectation
that it would but

you know of course on Android you have
a Microsoft has a

much easier way of getting into the
system and making

this more seamless whereas in IOS,
if you think about how

Cortana works you kind of have to go
in and run the app

for some things to happen. You know it's
never going to be as. .

even though it can you know, it can sort
of run in the background a little bit

you can never be sure that it will always
be there. This is more easily done on

Android and Windows Phone So if you…
Mary-Jo do you know off the top you head

has Microsoft ever spoke to S.M.S relay
on IOS Android?

-I don't remember them saying that.