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It's time for Windows weekly with
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Paul Thurrott and Mary-Jo Foley.
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Microsoft wants you for life,
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and their ready to kill the next screen.
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Paul is excited for the new Xbox and
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Mary-Jo talks about Microsoft's
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bad cloud day. Window's Weekly is next.
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(Pulse wave sounds)
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This is Twit
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Bandwidth for Windows Weekly is provided
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by CacheFly at cachefly.com
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This is Window's Weekly with Paul Thurrott
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and Mary-Jo Foley. Episode 484, recorded
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September 21, 2016 Microsoft for life!
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Window's Weekly is literately brought to
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And by Audible.com to download a free
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www.audible.com/windows
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And by Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans
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Rocket Mortgage brings the
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into the 21st century with a fast, easy
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Check out Rocket Mortgage today at
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www.quickenloans.com/windows
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It's time for Windows weekly with
Paul Thurrott and Mary-Jo Foley.
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I'm Father Robert Ballecer in for
Leo Laporte
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who is currently looking for the answers
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to life, the universe and everything
-
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acrossed the pond. Of course Paul Thurrott
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is the guru behind Thurrott.com the
-
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previewer of news, reviews and analyzes
-
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for tech enthusiasts. Mary-Jo Foley the
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mastermind behind ZDnet All About
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Microsoft blog. Together their here to
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bring a light to the deep cave of
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Microsoft news, like a over charged light
-
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bulb battery exploding in the darkness.
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Paul, Mary-Jo so good to have ya.
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(Mary-Jo laughs)
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(Paul) It's like your introducing
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Bond villains there.
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(Mary-Jo) I know I was like Wow!
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The masterminds.
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(Paul) Master of Disaster Mary-Jo Foley.
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(Father Ballecer) Do you have a cat?
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and can you do this with your fingers?
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- I think I need that on a business card.
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If I still used business cards I would.
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That is one of those strange things.
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At these conventions that we go to
these shows
-
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we all do the business card thing and
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I've even got down the whole Asian thing
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of handing like this and a bit of a bow.
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But, um, those collect dust afterwards,
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I almost never use them.
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- No, No! I don't even have one.
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- I was going to say I think I have some,
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but I've never brought them anywhere.
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-Wait!, You two go to shows, don't you?
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It's kind of a thing, it's how you say
hello, right?
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- uh
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-Well now people just say, "where can
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I find you?" and I just day "All About
-
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Microsoft"
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- Mary-Jo and I just bump our phones
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together and say "Power twins activate."
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(Mary-Jo laughs)
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- No, I don't know every once in a while
-
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someone will hand me a business cards
-
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and I have a momentary bit of confusion,
-
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like I don't have one of these things,
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or I don't have it with me.
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You know I feel, it's like a weird moment.
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I feel like I need to give them something
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in return, it's like someone comes over
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with a gift and you don't have anything
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to give them.
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-Yeah, that's what it is. I know
I'm handing
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out cards like they are candy, but it's
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just because I want to give you something.
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It's like thank you very much for
your time,
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uh, here's something, and stop talking
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to me now.
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(laughing) yes, right!
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(Paul) I've met the social obligation
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(Father Ballencer) And if you actually
want to see
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where this is gonna be put up you
can contact
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ma at this other wise I'm just gonna
assume
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that you just don't care (Mary-Jo) Yep
(laughter)
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(Paul) I needed a resume for something,
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you know, like a year ago or more, I. . .
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Thurrott.com, what do you mean I...?
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(laughing) I don't keep track of my
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accomplishments, I'm not even sure what
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I would do with that.
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(Father Ballencer) Our Field producer,
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Colene Goldstein, she's actually
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really good LinkedIn. Before she
hands over
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her card, she'll just say can I find
you on
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LinkedIn and she's just building up
this huge
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network of all these people that she's
connected
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to and she says that's far more efficient
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than trying to take a card and then
remember
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where it came from and who they
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represented six weeks ago.
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Because remember a lot of the people that
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you meet don't actually work for
that company
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they work for a PR company that represents
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the company that you are talking to.
(Paul) Right.
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and you won't remember who that is unless
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you actually write it on the back of
that card
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and even then sometimes you don't remember
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- I have to look at the lower third to
remember
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Mary-jo's name. (laughing) you know I'm
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really not good at that kind of thing.
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(Mary-Jo) He's bad at this thing.
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(Fa. Ballencer) I have to look down here
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If I don't see that?
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(Paul) Hi! I'm Fr. Rob, What does
that say?
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(laughing) Sir Foley, no let's not
do that.
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I'll right let's get away from social
convention
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cuz we've got some pretty spectacular
windows news
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who's got this first one, because
eventually
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Microsoft has finally "oh! that's right
we're not
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offering the free version anymore,
maybe we
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should kill that nag screen"
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Mary-Jo - Yeah I can start it off a bit.
Um,
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Yesterday, the 20th, Microsoft put out a
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KB article that said "Hey we're finally
going to
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push through Windows update, an update
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that takes away the Windows, get
Windows 10 app.
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So if you remember July 29th was the
actual day
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the offer to get a free Windows 10 ended.
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And at that time they said it might
take us
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a little while to faze this out
because we've
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so thoroughly inundated everyone
with this app
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and the promotion. So actually the real
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day when this ended at least when
the app ended
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was yesterday. And it's starting to roll
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through the Windows update. It replaces
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the get Windows 10 app and it goes away.
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But the weird complication
not complication
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but the weird kind of coincidence is
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you can actually still get Windows 10
as free upgrade
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You just have to use your existing
Windows 7
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or 8.1 product key and you can still
unlock the free
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upgrade, which is something Microsoft
is not
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actively advertising, but Paul has been
verifying it daily.
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(Paul) well weekly
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(Mary-Jo) I've been asking him
is it still up
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(Fa. Bellencer) Cuz, I was told
that if you do
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the get Windows 10 thing and then
you roll it
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back you're always set you can always
re-download it
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(Paul) Oh! yeah, yeah this is for
new installs.
-
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In other words you have never
done this before
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you have a key you can do a clean
Windows 10
-
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right now and it would still work.
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(Fa. Bellencer) Wait! What? That's not how
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it's suppose to work.
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(Mary-jo) Yep
(Paul) I know, and by the way
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one day it won't, I mean maybe
this weekend
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or the weekend after that, someday,
I'm gonna
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wake up, I'm gonna test it and
it's not gonna work
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you know it's just.. It's going to
happen eventually.
-
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But, um, I wrote an article about this
-
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not working probably a month ago
in anticipation
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of it not working and it's just
kept working
-
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the things been sitting here at
my desktop since
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August. (Fa Ballencer) So you just try and
-
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do an update everyday just to make
sure it still goes?
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(Paul) not everyday and least once a week.
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- Now does this
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(Mary-Jo) Yesterday, I said to him can you
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still do it? And he's like, Yep you can!
-
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-So does this now increase the
value of the
-
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Windows 10 upgrade, because now
you can't get
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it except maybe if you know this
super secret,
-
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now do people actually want it?
-
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(Paul) I.. No.. I suppose..
I think the issue
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is.. Well if you wanted to save some money
-
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I suppose you could go buy Windows 8.1
-
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product key and you know, well you
-
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wouldn't actually buy Windows 8.1
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I should say, it's possibly you can
buy a copy of it
-
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somewhere cheaper because nobody wants it
-
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anymore and than you could upgrade
now for less money
-
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than buying Windows 10. Or maybe you just
-
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had keys for some reason, maybe a
company that has
-
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keys allotted or you bought the
package version
-
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at some point, maybe you bought
the Windows 7
-
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family pack back in the day and you
only used
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two of the three keys and you've got
an extra
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one sitting around for what ever reason.
-
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If you have a key it will work. If you
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got them from TechNet that will work.
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um, and someday it won't. So, we'll see.
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-Microsoft won't say when they think
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it will no longer work in fact they aren't
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really publicly saying that it still works
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if you ask them, they just don't answer
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when you ask about this.
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And I assume it's the same thing
that they said
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about the get Window 10 app
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that it might take some time for them
-
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to shut it off. But the other
theory is they
-
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are just leaving it open for those laggers
-
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who didn't get around to updating by
July 29th
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and they can say to them "You know what,
psst
-
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by the way."
-
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- It doesn't hurt anybody, I think
that's the
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point that if they are people out there
in the world
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with Windows 7 install that they've
never done
-
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Microsoft would much rather see them be on
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Windows 10, if they're going to do a
new Windows
-
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install. Why wouldn't they want that.
-
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- I can also see this heading off a lot of
-
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complaints from people who said "oh man
-
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I tried to upgrade and I totally forgot
and I
-
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did it in August and it didn't
work anymore"
-
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No that's not actually a valid excuse.
-
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You know September 21st, October 21st,
-
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It's starting to get to the point where
-
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you can't pretend you've been
-
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procrastinating and than just forgot
I mean,
-
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You know at some point it's just. . .
-
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Their just leaving it open, its fine.
-
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I have no problem with this.
-
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- This is actually a huge opportunity
for us
-
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because I know Alex has been trying to
-
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update the Tri caster to Windows 10
-
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(Paul) Actually Padre, Let me correct you
-
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you shouldn't run Windows update on the
-
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Tri caster, New Tech doesn't say
you should
-
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So I really hope that nothing. . .
-
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Oh Crap! (Laughing)
-
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- This is what happens, You get a
nag screen
-
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in the middle of Windows weekly
-
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that's oddly blocking me out entirely,
-
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that's different (Mary-Jo) It is
-
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You know we're going to have to live
with this
-
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for the next 20 -30 minutes because
-
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unfortunately, click the initiated
and it'll
-
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take that much time to install and
-
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uninstall it. (Mary-Jo) They'll see
us though
-
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we're off to the sides. Not when you zoom
-
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on us, but the big picture you can see us.
-
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(Paul) How do I know that this
graphic hasn't
-
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been used more gleefully on
Macbreak weekly
-
Not Synced
and whatever morning show I'm sure you do?
-
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(Fa Ballencer) Uh, this weeks it's Google,
-
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I think this is actually the
new title card
-
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for Floss Weekly. Um Floss Weekly will
-
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never reserve your copy.
-
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Do either of you still have Windows 7,
8 & 10
-
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Machines in your environment?
-
Not Synced
(Mary-Jo) Yes, I have 7,
-
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(Fa Ballencer) So no 10 at all?
-
Not Synced
(Mary-Jo) Yeah I have 10 and 7, but no 8
-
Not Synced
(Fa Ballencer) Really? I have 7, 8.1
and 10
-
Not Synced
(Mary-Jo) You have all of them.
-
Not Synced
(Fa Ballencer) Well because I mean 10
-
Not Synced
does still kill some of my USB devices
-
Not Synced
so my production machines have to stay 8
-
Not Synced
and I have one laptop and that just works
-
Not Synced
better at 7.
-
Not Synced
(Mary-Jo) I just have the desktop I still
-
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use because it's just an older machine,
-
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the Dell that I've had for awhile
I just left
-
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it on 7, cuz I'm like Eh, when I need to
-
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replace the machine Ill just get
-
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Windows 10 machine.
-
Not Synced
(Paul) But what about all those
gotta have it
-
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apps you can't run?
-
Not Synced
-Um?!
-
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(Fa Ballencer) Now a quick question,
-
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this really did hurt Microsoft's
reputation,
-
Not Synced
right? I mean Yes, That number of how
-
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many deployments they have of Windows 10
-
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is forever going to be asterisk.
-
Not Synced
People said "Well how many of those were
-
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accidental upgrades or how many of those
-
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were installs and then rollbacks almost
-
Not Synced
immediately. This. . Will people
forget this
-
Not Synced
or will Windows 10 upgrade nag screen
-
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be the butt of jokes for the next two
-
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decades. (Paul) Honestly I think they've
-
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irreparably harmed their reputation with
-
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this and not just Microsoft generally but
-
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the reputation of Windows as well.
-
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The forced upgrade thing was a
huge mistake
-
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on their part and a very risky gamble and
-
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the recent people aren't going to forget
-
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it is because they came out and said we're
-
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going to hit a billion within two to three
-
Not Synced
years and then right before Windows the
-
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windows ten free upgrade ended they said
-
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you know what we're not going to make that
-
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goal and so even though they did that they
-
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were unable to you know meet
this reasonable
-
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goal, I thought, of reaching a billion
-
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users in that timeframe.
-
Not Synced
- You know Mary Jo there's two ways to
-
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look at this. There's one way and
this would,
-
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I think this is where Paul lines up, there
-
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was an executive or some marketing person
-
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who said you know what we want to hit a
-
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billion because it sounds like a
great number.
-
Not Synced
So let's just force this on people. The
-
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other way to think of this is that some
-
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engineers said you know what people
-
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will like ten if they just try it if
we just
-
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get it on the machine they will understand
-
Not Synced
what all the hoopla is about.
-
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Which of those do you fall with?
-
Not Synced
- So I also, like Paul, think this was a
-
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big mistake and the part that really
-
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kind of riled me the most was when
-
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Microsoft was taking the tack of saying
-
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it's for users own good that were doing
-
Not Synced
this and you know I was like wait this is
-
Not Synced
so paternalistic How can you say what's
-
Not Synced
for my good or my mother's good who
-
Not Synced
accidently got Windows ten and
like flipped
-
Not Synced
out when she got it you know I just think
-
Not Synced
that argument didn't work. I'm happy. They
-
Not Synced
made a free upgrade available very easily
-
Not Synced
to people but I don't think they should
-
Not Synced
have rammed it down people's throat.
-
Not Synced
But it's also, I don’t know
if it qualifies
-
Not Synced
as ironic but, You know one of the kind of
-
Not Synced
contracts you enter into with Microsoft
-
Not Synced
when you do install or get Windows 10 is
-
Not Synced
you're accepting a constant stream of
-
Not Synced
upgrades and you really can't do anything
-
Not Synced
as an individual to befriend that from
-
Not Synced
happening. Least not elegantly or easily
-
Not Synced
and your introduction to this new world is
-
Not Synced
Microsoft seamlessly and inelegantly
-
Not Synced
jamming Windows 10 down your throat
-
Not Synced
you know it's it's kind of a nasty preview
-
Not Synced
of what the future holds for you when you
-
Not Synced
do this and it's just the wrong first step
-
Not Synced
you know to resent, it was a
terrible mistake
-
Not Synced
- Yeah and then the, you hiding of the way
-
Not Synced
that you would actually accept the upgrade
-
Not Synced
where people were closing the window.
-
Not Synced
That was really bad. That made like a bad
-
Not Synced
situation worse. So yeah not a good look.
-
Not Synced
- In writing about this topic today
-
Not Synced
I decided not to go back and hit on every
-
Not Synced
single little milestone in this because
-
Not Synced
frankly it's kind of depressing.
-
Not Synced
You know, when you go back to look at the
-
Not Synced
sheer amount of stuff that both of us I'm
-
Not Synced
sure have written about this get
Windows 10
-
Not Synced
thing since last year and the various ways
-
Not Synced
they changed it silently some Windows
-
Not Synced
Update, or group of Windows Updates would
-
Not Synced
go out, some of them would prevent the
-
Not Synced
blockers from, you know or the un-blockers
-
Not Synced
I guess from you know working.
-
Not Synced
some of them would change the way the
-
Not Synced
dialog looked or worked. You know in the
-
Not Synced
past when you close the window, it would
-
Not Synced
just go away but at one point when you
-
Not Synced
close the window you silently
have accepted
-
Not Synced
the upgrade and that's purposefully evil.
-
Not Synced
It's terrible.
-
Not Synced
-For me I think that hurt more
than anything
-
Not Synced
else because I understand wanting to
-
Not Synced
force out the update. Especially since
-
Not Synced
they believe it's going to be much more
-
Not Synced
secure, it's going to be much more feature
-
Not Synced
rich. But the fact that they kept playing
-
Not Synced
cat and mouse with people who just didn't
-
Not Synced
want to be nagged anymore. That's the
-
Not Synced
reputation strike it's like ok
if I went to
-
Not Synced
the trouble of removing that nag screen
-
Not Synced
then obviously I'm a savvy user if I can
-
Not Synced
do that. So the fact that you're trying to
-
Not Synced
work around what I did. Now I feel as if
-
Not Synced
we're playing Microsoft nanny state.
-
Not Synced
-Right -Yeah, yeah
-
Not Synced
A lot of times you know they keep saying
-
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you know what, we're letting people get
-
Not Synced
around it, if they go in and edit the
-
Not Synced
registry settings. I'm like, wait a second
-
Not Synced
hold on, that's not something most people
-
Not Synced
should do. In fact, probably very few
-
Not Synced
should do it. And so when that was
-
Not Synced
like “Hey were give you an alternative
-
Not Synced
to get out of it. I was like uh, that's
-
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not a good option.
-
Not Synced
-That's not an alternative.
-
Not Synced
–No
-
Not Synced
- I mean the funny thing they get looking
-
Not Synced
back over a year of articles
for this topic.
-
Not Synced
What I reminded myself of was in late June
-
Not Synced
one month before the free offer ended.
-
Not Synced
They finally added something to that
-
Not Synced
box that said I don't want this please
-
Not Synced
stop asking me. It took them eleven of
-
Not Synced
the twelve months to get to that point.
-
Not Synced
That's how it should have been on day one.
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You know it's just uh, you just can't
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recover from this. We don't know, we may
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never know the psychological impact that
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had on what may or may not have been
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very good to Microsoft customers that day,
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who upon looking for a new computer at
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some time in the future may decide they
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need, they are going to get a pro book
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instead or a mac book or well probably not
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a Linux computer that's crazy.
But you know
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what I'm saying. That they're
going to look
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at an iPad even or something, whatever.
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And just make that decision because they
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don't want to be harassed which is a
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completely reasonable request. You know.
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-Let's close the book on this bad chapter.
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–Yeah, yeah I think so.
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It's not a mulligan but it's since you say
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OK you know what, you kind of hit some
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of the numbers you wanted not the big one
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but now actually show us that our faith in
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you is not misplaced. But to be fair, we
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could look at other companies in the
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industry, like Google that are doing the
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same sort of strong arm tactics.
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Google right now is making a big push for
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HTTPS, they want everything to be encypted
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end to end on the internet, that's a good
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goal, but some people feel that their
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approach is heavy handed. Now, the new
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updates to Chrome are going
to automatically
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mark any site that doesn't have
HTTPS built
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into it as insecure so that little icon is
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going to pop up, warning people that maybe
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they shouldn't visit the site.
People think
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that's heavy handed, but those looking at
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it say, "well this is ultimately going to
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lead to a better internet." you could make
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the same call here. You could say "Look,
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this was heavy handed, this was
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Microsoft being the worst of the nannies,
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but a more secure OS ultimately is a
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better experience."
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-All of the goals that Microsoft had for
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this were valid right. Even the
self-serving
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ones you know, the notion that we would
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all be better off if more of us run the
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very latest version of the O. S. and were
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always updated to be on that version would
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make us all more secure because it's less
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work for Microsoft to do to fix
the problems
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you know, are going to occur down the road
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Everyone benefits from that there's no. .
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you can't really dispute it. But the
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problem is when they say oh good, everyone
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agrees? Good! Now you're all getting the
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new upgrade is like whoa whoa hold on a
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second, you know, you mention for example
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that you have U.S.B. devices that don't
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work on Windows 10. I'm sure anyone.
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listening to this has some examples of
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some things whatever might be, uh…
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that don't work you know or some reason
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whatever it may be that they couldn't
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upgrade. I mean you can't. . . I don't
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believe you can I mean they
tried you can't
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really just jam this kind of thing down
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people's throats.
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-And for our few fruit flans in
the chat room
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right now. Why is it that Microsoft trying
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to force Windows 10 on people was a
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boondoggle. Whereas another company's
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decision to remove a standard
port was brave?
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(Mary-Jo laughs) Courage
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(Paul) Good marketing.
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(Fa. Ballencer) Maybe this was just
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Microsoft’s courage, and we’re all just
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misunderstanding it.
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-Uhm –Ok (Laughter) -Well OK
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(Paul) It was courageous of them
to attempt.
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(Fa. Ballencer) It was, it was. Although
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I will say something I really don't like
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is the fact that they've disabled
something
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from 8 because if you do Windows stacked
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side by side it's pretty seamless but if
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you do one on top of the other there's
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always a hard break as you move between
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screens. In 8 you used to be able to
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disable that sticky window, you just move
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right through it. You can do the same
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registry edit in 10 but it doesn't fix it.
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That never goes away and that's why I
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don't understand that, Go figure.
All right.
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When we come back. We need to talk about
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something a bit more cheery because we've
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we've been hammering on Microsoft
so rather
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than talking about a forced
Windows 10 update
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I think maybe we should talk about some
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Layoffs -Yeah. (laughter)
-Oh boy!
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–Yay let’s get pumped. But first let's go
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ahead and take a moment to thank the first
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sponsor of this episode of Windows weekly.
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Hey folks do you worry about bandwidth
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because we don't because here at the new
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Eastside studio. We've got 10gig. Yeah
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exactly 10gig provided to us by Sonic.
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Sonics 10gig fiber internet service
is what
-
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we use to get out to the Internet and in
-
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other words some sponsors we say the show
-
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was brought to you by them. This was
-
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literally brought to you by
Sonic if you're
-
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watching the show right now. You're
-
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watching us over a sonic connection
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because well we just love them.
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The Internet infrastructure in the
-
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United States needs fixing and Sonic
-
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understands that they're not
just a company
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that wants to sell you something
every month.
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They're a company that wants to roll out
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service where service doesn't exist they
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deliver fast affordable internet phone and
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T.V. to homes and businesses all over
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California now their mission is to bring
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Internet freedom to all with on limited
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and uncapped Internet they deliver
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residential and business fiber to the
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premise networks with gigabit connectivity
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in San Francisco the North. Bay and the
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East Bay They've got internet service that
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includes fifteen email accounts and one
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gigabyte of storage personal web hosting
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for those people who still need that now
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for only $40 a month Sonic offers
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you download speeds of up to one gigabit
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that's one thousand megabits per second.
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Compare that to whoever you have right
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now a home phone connection
with unlimited
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local and long distance calling
is included
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in all of their service and switching from
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your current carrier is easy and you can
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keep your existing phone number just with
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the flick of a button. Now by standing up
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for privacy friendly and local customer
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support uncapped bandwidth an affordable
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pricing for all Sonic's c
ustomer advocacies
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paving the way for a better state of
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internet access in America. As we've seen
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throughout the industry in these last few
-
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years when you have a provider who is
-
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willing to invest who is willing to come
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into a market that was previously closed
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off who is willing to will be an advocate
-
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for customers. Everybody benefits and
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that's why we just love our sonic service
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Join the Internet revolution today visit
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sonic.com/TWIT that’s Sonic.com/TWIT
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and receive your first month of
Sonic Internet
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and phone service for free. Plus bundle
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bill
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visit sonic.com/TWIT once again that's
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sonic.com/TWIT. And we thank Sonic
-
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for their support of Windows Weekly.
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OK this is one of these stories that it
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almost feels as if a
continuation of stories
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that we've already covered but who
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wants to talk about the bad news for
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pink slips over at Microsoft.
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