Nancy Jo Sales: The Secret Lives of Teenagers

(applause)

Thank you for being here,
I would like to congratulate you

on this beautiful book!

Thank you, I think
it's really important and significant

really because, I think

in general in society

we tend to undervalue the voices
of teenage girls

and I think you did a really good job
of illustrating a lot of strong

and well informed and important
opinions from girls.

And I think that's really really wonderful.

That's really what I wanted to do
with the book

and the voices of girls
and call it "American Girls"

because I think it's so important
that we talk about girls

and not only talk ABOUT them
and maybe even change the WAY

we talk about them, but
listen to them

and hear them when they talk.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting
how much you just use

the word "girl".
like you really owned that in a way that

sometimes people are a little hesitant to
because it can often feel demeaning

I think.

I mean, if anybody feels

that the word "girl" is demeaning
we need to stop right there

and unpack that because
what is demeaning about

being a girl?

A girl is a citizen of the United States
who is an important part

and an often very vibrant
-if you read the book-

very vibrant, insightful part
of our national identity.

So, I have no problem with the word:
"girl".

Good, good. I don't think we
should either.

So tell me about
-for people who haven't read the book yet

what you're doing in this story.

The introduction did a pretty
good job of explaining:

you talked to over 200 girls
from different states

Tell us a little bit about
what you're working with.

Well, I have written about
teenagers off and on

for about twenty years,
starting at New York Magazine

in the 90s and then I came to
Vanity Fair in 2000

Off and on I'll do a story about
teens based on something

that's happened in the news or
some sort of new trend that we're seeing

I've interviewed a lot of celebrities
who are also teenagers

that sort of became my beat.

I met Paris Hilton when
she was a teenager

I met Lindsay Lohan
when she was a teenager

"The Bling Ring" was about
a gang of teenage burglars.

So I sort of became identified with
that beat.

So around 2012/2013

we started to see a lot of
stories in the news

-which haven't stopped-
y'know, they continue to this day

unfortunately, and since my
book has come out, we see them

more and more.

Stories that involved teenagers,
particularly teenage girls

and social media.

And really serious kinds of
abuses of social media.

The footage of which would be posted
online with comments

sometimes comments from
other teens

but also from adults
that were really

vilifying and slut-shaming.

There was Steubenville:

infamous case in Ohio with
sexual assault and video online.

There was Amanda Todd
in Canada

where this young girl was
cyberbullied to death.

Now there's a word for that:

it's called "cyberbullicide"

A man had taken a naked screenshot
of her and passed it around

and she killed herself
famously or infamously

posted a suicide online
flipping cards to tell you

what she had gone through
and why she was about to do this.

So these were just horrifying things
and they were just all of a sudden

bubbling up.

So my boss, Graden Carter, said to me:
"What is going on?"

"What are we seeing here?"

Let's find out. And so I went off
and did, first a story

on this subject matter.
and that became the basis for the book.

Girls really brought me to it
because from the very first conversation

that I had with girls in Los Angeles
about this

I went out there, y'know, looking for
sources, looking for voices

I typically don't go to
an organization and say:

"Give me some girls."

I mean, there are a whole bunch of
different ways to be a reporter

there's all different ways
to investigate something

and I'm not saying one is better
or worse than the other.

People put surveys online and
there's all different things to do.

I'm very old school, I really
just kind of pound the pavement.

I take a lot of trains and planes
and automobiles

and run around and try to find
girls where they are.

So I went to - not to stereotype -
I went to a mall

(laughter)

in LA, called the Grove.

If you know it it's an outdoor mall
I saw some teenage girls

coming out of the Cheesecake Factory.

They had just had a birthday party

and they were carrying their leftovers
and they looked like girls who...

kinda like how you would want
girls to look in this day and age.

Y'know you want them to look healthy
and happy,

and it was a diverse group
and they went to a good school.

Y'know, so what's going on in your
lives.

Well, from that very first conversation
with no agenda from me

they started telling me about
social media

and how it was really informing
their life.

and this is three years ago.

And they were talking about challenges
to friendships

and challenges to romantic
relationships

and judgments that were made

and sexualization, which became
something that I heard

more and more and more about

from girls all over the country.

Sexualization, if you're not aware of
the term,

sometimes hyper-sexualization

which you know from reading the book
or maybe you're a sociologist

or psychologist
and you're aware of it.

You should be aware of it.

Because it's a really important
thing to know about in our culture.

What it is is the objectification of
women and girls, treated as

sexual objects.

Sometimes with girls WAY
before it's appropriate at all.

It has sort of engulfed our
culture and it's in everything.

It's in toys and media and music
y'know, I talk about Dora the Explorer

My daughter is 16, when she was little
Dora looked like a little girl

She was this little square thing
with a bowl haircut.

And now suddenly-have you seen Dora?

Dora looks very different.
She's been sexualized.

Why? Why? Why?

And this is something that you talk about
how this has happened

throughout human history, right?
Sexualization.

But it's so much more efficient
because of the internet.

It's happened before, but
if you think that you're seeing more

sexualized images of women and girls now
than you did, like, say 15-20 years ago

depending on how old you might be:

it's true, you are.

There are people, like sociologists,
who count this.

There is more sexualization
of women and girls in the media

Mass media and now on phones,
on the social media

Where girls and boys
are spending a whole lot of their time.

In a very very short amount of time
their lives have changed

and there's a new kind of childhood,
a new kind of coming of age

which simply didn't exist before
because the technology didn't exist.

iPhones came out in 2007
Androids in 2008

Widely adopted by 2009/2010
Social media goes online

We're talking about something
that's less than ten years

just this blip, this little nanosecond
in human evolution

and yet boom. Such an unprecedented
influence on our behavior.

On how we think and act
and interact.

I think too it's interesting,
early on in the book

you talk about how
over and over again

you would talk to adults
and parents and teachers

and they would express their concerns,

like, yeah! All these kids ever do
is spend time on their phone.

And you have this line-something like:

"When pressed, the adults also admitted
that they spent a lot of time

on their phones as well."

There's such a weird double standard
where we think we're okay

on instagram and checking our facebook

and whatever...maybe just because
we didn't grow up with the internet

so it's different for some reason?
What do you think about that?

Very early in the book, actually,
so I think it's important to note

right away, I talk about
the role modeling that's going on

with parents and with adults.

It is true statistically that kids,
girls in particular

spend more time on phones than
anybody else

and this is across socioeconomic lines
and across demographics.

There are girls in my book
from all different kinds of places

and all different kinds of families.

And everybody has a phone.
But that's just because, like,

they don't have jobs, and they're
not raising kids and stuff.

I'm sure that every adult in this room
would be on their phones just as much

if they didn't have stuff to do.
(laughter)

Y'know? Because it's very addictive.
And it's designed to be addictive

I was hesitant to really say that
when the book came out because

Like, the research wasn't quite there yet
and I'm like...well the jury's still

kind of out on whether this is addictive.

I feel validated even since my book
came out

there's been a lot of deep research
on this

and now you can pretty much openly say
that this is an addictive medium,

that it's, again, DESIGNED to be
addictive

particularly dating apps are
designed to be addictive.

And it plugs into your brain the same
way that, in particular, gambling does.

You're sort of...this sort of
game theory of

putting out something and
trying to get a response

It's sort of like betting, y'know?

So, it doesn't seem to follow addiction
in terms of drugs so much as gambling

although I think there's probably some
crossover there.

But the hand-eye coordination thing
is like a slot machine or something

If you think about something like tinder,

for example, where it's just totally
following the game theory

of gambling.

Y'know, Swipe swipe swipe
swipe swipe. I'll swipe swipe swipe

Do you know what Tinder is, everybody?

Yeah, how many people here are familiar
like have used the interface, I wonder.

I guess it's kinda hard to see.
Can you guys raise your hand

Can you clap?
(people clap)

Anyways Tinder is a dating app.

Clap for Tinder, yeah!

If you're an old person like myself
and you haven't used Tinder

Then - I mean, I've been on it
for research - ONLY

(laughter)

Air quotes "For research"

But anyways, you look at someone's face,
you swipe on it

"Yes, I wanna 'date' you"

which really means have sex with you

or "No, I don't want to."

For a lot of men, and this is based on
research that I also did

reporting that I did.

for the book and also for
another story about dating apps

For a lot of men it's like you
cover your averages

The more you swipe the more
chance you have of having sex

and so it's like betting.

And then when you match with someone

it goes "BRIIING". Your face and
their face go "BRIIING" and they

actually bump together and
there's this sound like "WOOOHOO"

So it's like a slot machine.

Right, it's really like a slot machine.

So I started to wonder-what is that doing?

I mean it's objectification of
men and women, women in particular

seem to be more objectified, more
sexualized on these platforms.

Absolutely, we definitely want to talk
about the dating apps more

But I'm a little curious about the
creation story of this book.

You say you went to LA, you did
the first interview

And that was for a magazine story, right?
Or was that for the book at this point?

No, I had a Vanity Fair story
that sort of became the basis for the book

The story was called-Oh, I don't write
the headlines

It was called "Friends Without Benefits"

"I don't write the headlines" That's fair

It was called "Friends Without Benefits"
and when Vanity Fair put it online

it went viral.
And I never had that happen to me

before because I usually go in the print
and I'm not really so much online

and so now we have more of a presence
as a website

It went online and having a viral story
is a really strange experience

I've had a few now, since then
I've been lucky in that way.

Well, the subject matter is just epidemic
and it's just everywhere and

It seems to be something that everyone's

thinking about. You start to get emailed
on the website

if you ever want to talk to me about
anything: nancyjosephhales.com

I have an email function there.
I started to get emails, like scores

and then hundreds a day.

From parents, mostly, grandparents
but also kids

And not just in the United States
all over

People writing in Australia and saying
it's just like that here

We're going through the same stuff here.

And actually, since the book's come out
Y'know, I'm not saying this

to promote the book-I'm saying this to
underscore the fact that this is a global

phenomenon even though the book's called
"American Girls"

I've been on the radio in Ireland
and all of these different places

Because I think the reason is, again,
the platforms are the same

They are the same. Snapchat is snapchat
In Dublin and in New York City and in

New Orleans and in India
where I just read in the Hindu-Stan Times

They have, in India now, a terrible problem
with girls and cyberstalking

What you hear a lot from
social media companies

their public relations thing that they say
is that this technology is wonderful

and it's causing all of these wonderful
connections and it's bringing us all

closer together and y'know
it's just this magic box that's making

our lives great, y'know.

There's some good stuff about social media
Don't get me wrong

I recognize what it is-and girls talk
in my book about some of the

really great things about social media
as well

But before very recently, nobody was
talking about the challenges

and the things that are really, I think
very disruptive to a healthy childhood

and a healthy high school experience.

So that's...did that answer your question?

Well, what I was wondering was
at what point did you know it was

a book? Was it when you were
sitting in the mall with your Cheesecake

Factory bags like "Oh my God, this is
huge"

I think when the story went viral.

That's when it was-

It was just like: "Woah!"
And there was some resistance too!

It's weird to me because I've had this
experience with a lot of stories

that I've done where people in the media
-I can think of some names, that I

won't say right now-
They'll say "Oh, that's not true,

She's just making it up,
It's all exaggerated, Nuh uh, not true."

Because oftentimes these are people who
somebody from social media

has called them up.

They have their own sources, they write
about Tech

And somebody has called them up
and said: "Did you see this story

that this woman wrote? That's not true!
We're not doing that."

I don't know. Whatever. Sometimes
There's resistance and I think there's

a kind of a frog in the pot situation
where people don't really understand

that the water's heating up because

they're in it.

So that'll be happening-at the same time
I'm getting an email from a woman in Iran

who says to me: "My daughter"
-well, they're in New York City, but

they're Iranian.

She said: "My daughter met a boy
on facebook. She broke up with him

and he went on this whole revenge
porn thing. Tried to ruin her life.

These stories are all too common.

What's it like getting emails like that?

I try to get them to-it's great, in a way
because I learn more

and also, if they have some kind of
school that they're connected to or

organization that I can help with or
be a part of, I try to connect people

when I can. I recently got an email-

It takes you in places you never thought
you would go.

Right, yeah.
Two days ago I was in Grand Rapids, Michigan

A place I never thought I would go.

(laughter)

I'm sort of a New Yorker

I was talking to the best people
these were all people who work in the

Juvenile Justice Area.

These are professionals who are
probation officers, people who work in

the court system and foster care.
And they're seeing all this stuff

with social media and teenagers,
particularly girls coming into the system.

They don't understand what's going on
and they need to tell them

I learned so much from them
just talking to them

So I like it, I like to take this whole
thing in places I never thought it would go

and there's been a lot of that
in the last few months.

I think really what's so remarkable
about this book is that you do

such a great job of painting a picture
of what it's like to be a teenage girl

at Dunkin Donuts at the end of school
on a Friday afternoon.

The Dunkin Donuts scene I thought of
recently with all of this stuff

that's come out with Donald Trump

because here was Donald Trump
-and y'know I'm not trying to say you

should vote for one person or the
other person.

But I'm just saying, it's been pretty
striking the kind of

well-they're calling it "locker room talk"
that's coming out of the mouth

of a Presidential candidate.

I thought of that when I heard the
Access Hollywood bus tape

-the infamous bus tape-

I thought of that scene in the
Mont-Claire, New Jersey Dunkin Donuts

I thought of those 13-14 year old boys
that I listened to standing around

in the Dunkin Donuts just casually buying
donuts saying that very same

kind of stuff.
One of the things that I'm trying to talk

about in the book is the way in which
this sort of normalization

of misogyny-I don't even think I use

the word "misogyny" in the book
because even 6-8 months ago

when it came out, when I wrote it
I thought: "People don't like that word.

I want people to hear my message.
I don't want them to get tripped up on

a word like misogyny or rape culture."

Thank you Michelle Obama!
Now we can say these words.

This sort of casual misogyny that was
being uttered by these boys in this

Dunkin Donuts. Believe me, I don't blame
these boys, I blame this culture

It's bad for them too. It's not like
they're "bad boys"

They're growing up in this culture
where people like Donald Trump,

Who is running for President,
say these things and

a whole lot of people say: "Oh, that's
okay, that's just locker room talk

It doesn't matter."
I mean, yeah it does, it does matter.

It affects girls...
(applause)

Right? So here I am in the Dunkin Donuts
Nobody's parents are there

It's where they go in this particular town
after school and hang out and

have donuts.

I grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska
it was a grocery store, so I can relate

So they're all pretty little 13 year olds
can look 13 or they can look 11

they're pretty little and they all have
powdered sugar on their face

and they're eating donuts and
bouncing on the couches and stuff

no parents around.
and they're talking like Donald Trump

That was before Donald Trump, so what
ran through my mind was like...

Where is this coming from?

The idea that they can't have
made it up. They must've heard it

somewhere to be reiterating it.

Of course, and I really don't think
it was necessarily from even their fathers

That's the thing
You can have a household where

people are pretty careful about how
they treat women and are respectful

and how they talk and stuff but then
kids go out into the world,

young boys and men go out into the world
and they see all kinds of support

for the idea that this is the way you
be a man in this culture.

The guy on Entourage and the guy
on the Wolf of Wall Street