How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger
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0:01 - 0:04I do want to test this question we're all interested in:
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0:04 - 0:07Does extinction have to be forever?
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0:07 - 0:10I'm focused on two projects I want to tell you about.
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0:10 - 0:11One is the Thylacine Project.
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0:11 - 0:13The other one is the Lazarus Project,
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0:13 - 0:15and that's focused on the gastric brooding frog.
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0:15 - 0:18And it would be a fair question to ask, well,
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0:18 - 0:20why have we focused on these two animals?
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0:20 - 0:23Well, point number one, each of them
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0:23 - 0:26represents a unique family of its own.
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0:26 - 0:27We've lost a whole family.
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0:27 - 0:30That's a big chunk of the global genome gone.
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0:30 - 0:31I'd like it back.
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0:31 - 0:36The second reason is that we killed these things.
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0:36 - 0:39In the case of the thylacine, regrettably,
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0:39 - 0:42we shot every one that we saw. We slaughtered them.
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0:42 - 0:45In the case of the gastric brooding frog,
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0:45 - 0:48we may have "fungicided" it to death.
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0:48 - 0:50There's a dreadful fungus that's sort of moving
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0:50 - 0:52through the world that's called the chytrid fungus,
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0:52 - 0:54and it's nailing frogs all over the world.
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0:54 - 0:56We think that's probably what got this frog,
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0:56 - 0:59and humans are spreading this fungus.
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0:59 - 1:02And this introduces a very important ethical point,
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1:02 - 1:04and I think you will have heard this many times
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1:04 - 1:06when this topic comes up.
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1:06 - 1:08What I think is important is that,
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1:08 - 1:11if it's clear that we exterminated these species,
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1:11 - 1:14then I think we not only have a moral obligation
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1:14 - 1:16to see what we can do about it, but I think we've got
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1:16 - 1:20a moral imperative to try to do something, if we can.
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1:20 - 1:24Okay. Let me talk to you about the Lazarus Project.
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1:24 - 1:26It's a frog. And you think, frog.
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1:26 - 1:30Yeah, but this was not just any frog.
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1:30 - 1:33Unlike a normal frog, which lays its eggs in the water
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1:33 - 1:35and goes away and wishes its froglets well,
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1:35 - 1:39this frog swallowed its fertilized eggs,
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1:39 - 1:43swallowed them into the stomach where it should be having food,
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1:43 - 1:44didn't digest the eggs,
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1:44 - 1:47and turned its stomach into a uterus.
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1:47 - 1:50In the stomach, the eggs went on to develop into tadpoles,
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1:50 - 1:54and in the stomach, the tadpoles went on to develop into frogs,
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1:54 - 1:57and they grew in the stomach until eventually
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1:57 - 2:00the poor old frog was at risk of bursting apart.
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2:00 - 2:02It has a little cough and a hiccup, and out comes
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2:02 - 2:04sprays of little frogs.
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2:04 - 2:07Now, when biologists saw this, they were agog.
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2:07 - 2:09They thought, this is incredible.
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2:09 - 2:13No animal, let alone a frog, has been known to do this,
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2:13 - 2:15to change one organ in the body into another.
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2:15 - 2:19And you can imagine the medical world went nuts over this as well.
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2:19 - 2:22If we could understand how that frog is managing
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2:22 - 2:24the way its tummy works, is there information
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2:24 - 2:27here that we need to understand or could usefully use
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2:27 - 2:29to help ourselves?
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2:29 - 2:32Now, I'm not suggesting we want to raise our babies in our stomach,
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2:32 - 2:34but I am suggesting it's possible we might want
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2:34 - 2:37to manage gastric secretion in the gut.
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2:37 - 2:40And just as everybody got excited about it, bang!
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2:40 - 2:42It was extinct.
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2:42 - 2:45I called up my friend, Professor Mike Tyler
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2:45 - 2:46in the University of Adelaide.
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2:46 - 2:48He was the last person who had this frog,
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2:48 - 2:50a colony of these things, in his lab.
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2:50 - 2:52And I said, "Mike, by any chance -- "
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2:52 - 2:53this was 30 or 40 years ago —
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2:53 - 2:57"by any chance had you kept any frozen tissue of this frog?"
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2:57 - 3:00And he thought about it, and he went to his deep freezer,
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3:00 - 3:02minus 20 degrees centigrade,
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3:02 - 3:04and he poured through everything in the freezer,
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3:04 - 3:06and there in the bottom was a jar
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3:06 - 3:09and it contained tissues of these frogs.
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3:09 - 3:12This was very exciting, but there was no reason
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3:12 - 3:13why we should expect that this would work,
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3:13 - 3:17because this tissue had not had any antifreeze put in it,
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3:17 - 3:21cryoprotectants, to look after it when it was frozen.
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3:21 - 3:24And normally, when water freezes, as you know, it expands,
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3:24 - 3:25and the same thing happens in a cell.
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3:25 - 3:28If you freeze tissues, the water expands,
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3:28 - 3:30damages or bursts the cell walls.
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3:30 - 3:32Well, we looked at the tissue under the microscope.
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3:32 - 3:35It actually didn't look bad. The cell walls looked intact.
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3:35 - 3:37So we thought, let's give it a go.
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3:37 - 3:39What we did is something called
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3:39 - 3:42somatic cell nuclear transplantation.
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3:42 - 3:45We took the eggs of a related species, a living frog,
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3:45 - 3:48and we inactivated the nucleus of the egg.
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3:48 - 3:51We used ultraviolet radiation to do that.
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3:51 - 3:54And then we took the dead nucleus from the dead tissue
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3:54 - 3:58of the extinct frog and we inserted those nuclei into that egg.
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3:58 - 4:02Now by rights, this is kind of like a cloning project,
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4:02 - 4:04like what produced Dolly, but it's actually very different,
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4:04 - 4:08because Dolly was live sheep into live sheep cells.
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4:08 - 4:10That was a miracle, but it was workable.
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4:10 - 4:14What we're trying to do is take a dead nucleus from an extinct species
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4:14 - 4:17and put it into a completely different species and expect that to work.
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4:17 - 4:19Well, we had no real reason to expect it would,
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4:19 - 4:23and we tried hundreds and hundreds of these.
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4:23 - 4:26And just last February, the last time we did these trials,
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4:26 - 4:28I saw a miracle starting to happen.
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4:28 - 4:32What we found was, most of these eggs didn't work,
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4:32 - 4:35but then suddenly one of them began to divide.
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4:35 - 4:39That was so exciting. And then the egg divided again.
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4:39 - 4:41And then again. And pretty soon, we had
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4:41 - 4:46early stage embryos with hundreds of cells forming those.
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4:46 - 4:48We even DNA tested some of these cells,
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4:48 - 4:52and the DNA of the extinct frog is in those cells.
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4:52 - 4:54So we're very excited. This is not a tadpole.
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4:54 - 4:59It's not a frog. But it's a long way along the journey
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4:59 - 5:01to producing, or bringing back, an extinct species.
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5:01 - 5:04And this is news. We haven't announced this publicly before.
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5:04 - 5:07We're excited. We've got to get past this point.
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5:07 - 5:10We now want this ball of cells to start to gastrulate,
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5:10 - 5:13to turn in so that it will produce the other tissues.
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5:13 - 5:17It'll go on and produce a tadpole and then a frog.
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5:17 - 5:19Watch this space. I think we're going to have this frog
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5:19 - 5:22hopping glad to be back in the world again.
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5:22 - 5:28Thank you. (Applause)
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5:28 - 5:31We haven't done it yet, but keep those applause ready.
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5:31 - 5:35The second project I want to talk to you about is the Thylacine Project.
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5:35 - 5:39The thylacine looks a bit, to most people, like a dog,
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5:39 - 5:41or maybe like a tiger, because it has stripes.
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5:41 - 5:43But it's not related to any of those.
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5:43 - 5:46It's a marsupial. It raised its young in a pouch,
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5:46 - 5:48like a koala or a kangaroo would do,
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5:48 - 5:53and it has a long history, a long, fascinating history,
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5:53 - 5:56that goes back 25 million years.
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5:56 - 5:58But it's also a tragic history.
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5:58 - 6:02The first one that we see occurs in the ancient rainforests
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6:02 - 6:05of Australia about 25 million years ago,
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6:05 - 6:08and the National Geographic Society is helping us
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6:08 - 6:11to explore these fossil deposits. This is Riversleigh.
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6:11 - 6:14In those fossil rocks are some amazing animals.
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6:14 - 6:16We found marsupial lions.
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6:16 - 6:19We found carnivorous kangaroos.
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6:19 - 6:21It's not what you usually think about as a kangaroo,
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6:21 - 6:23but these are meat-eating kangaroos.
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6:23 - 6:25We found the biggest bird in the world,
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6:25 - 6:27bigger than that thing that was in Madagascar,
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6:27 - 6:31and it too was a flesh-eater. It was a giant, weird duck.
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6:31 - 6:34And crocodiles were not behaving at that time either.
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6:34 - 6:36You think of crocodiles as doing their ugly thing,
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6:36 - 6:38sitting in a pool of water.
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6:38 - 6:40These crocodiles were actually out on the land
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6:40 - 6:44and they were even climbing trees and jumping on prey
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6:44 - 6:45on the ground.
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6:45 - 6:50We had, in Australia, drop crocs. They really do exist.
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6:50 - 6:53But what they were dropping on was not only
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6:53 - 6:55other weird animals but also thylacines.
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6:55 - 6:59There were five different kinds of thylacines in those ancient forests,
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6:59 - 7:03and they ranged from great big ones to middle-sized ones
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7:03 - 7:07to one that was about the size of a chihuahua.
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7:07 - 7:09Paris Hilton would have been able to carry
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7:09 - 7:11one of these things around in a little handbag,
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7:11 - 7:13until a drop croc landed on her.
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7:13 - 7:15At any rate, it was a fascinating place,
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7:15 - 7:18but unfortunately, Australia didn't stay this way.
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7:18 - 7:22Climate change has affected the world for a long period of time,
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7:22 - 7:25and gradually, the forests disappeared,
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7:25 - 7:26the country began to dry out,
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7:26 - 7:29and the number of kinds of thylacines began to decline,
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7:29 - 7:32until by five million years ago, only one left.
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7:32 - 7:34By 10,000 years ago, they had disappeared
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7:34 - 7:37from New Guinea, and unfortunately
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7:37 - 7:41by 4,000 years ago, somebodies,
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7:41 - 7:44we don't know who this was, introduced dingoes --
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7:44 - 7:47this is a very archaic kind of a dog — into Australia.
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7:47 - 7:49And as you can see, dingoes are very similar
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7:49 - 7:51in their body form to thylacines.
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7:51 - 7:54That similarity meant they probably competed.
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7:54 - 7:56They were eating the same kinds of foods.
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7:56 - 7:58It's even possible that aborigines were keeping
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7:58 - 8:01some of these dingoes as pets, and therefore
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8:01 - 8:04they may have had an advantage in the battle for survival.
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8:04 - 8:07All we know is, soon after the dingoes were brought in,
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8:07 - 8:09thylacines were extinct in the Australian mainland,
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8:09 - 8:14and after that they only survived in Tasmania.
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8:14 - 8:17Then, unfortunately, the next sad part of the thylacine story
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8:17 - 8:20is that Europeans arrived in 1788, and they brought
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8:20 - 8:24with them the things they valued, and that included sheep.
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8:24 - 8:27They took one look at the thylacine in Tasmania,
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8:27 - 8:30and they thought, hang on, this is not going to work.
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8:30 - 8:33That guy is going to eat all our sheep.
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8:33 - 8:35That was not what happened, actually.
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8:35 - 8:39Wild dogs did eat a few of the sheep, but the thylacine got a bad rap.
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8:39 - 8:41But immediately, the government said, that's it,
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8:41 - 8:44let's get rid of them, and they paid people
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8:44 - 8:46to slaughter every one that they saw.
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8:46 - 8:51By the early 1930s, 3,000 to 4,000 thylacines
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8:51 - 8:54had been murdered. It was a disaster,
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8:54 - 8:57and they were about to hit the wall.
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8:57 - 9:00Have a look at this bit of film footage.
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9:00 - 9:03It makes me very sad, because, while, it's a fascinating animal,
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9:03 - 9:08and it's amazing to think that we had the technology to film it
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9:08 - 9:12before it actually plunged off that cliff of extinction,
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9:12 - 9:15we didn't, unfortunately, at this same time, have
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9:15 - 9:19a molecule of concern about the welfare for this species.
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9:19 - 9:23These are photos of the last surviving thylacine, Benjamin,
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9:23 - 9:26who was in the Beaumaris Zoo in Hobart.
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9:26 - 9:29To add insult to injury, having swept this species
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9:29 - 9:33nearly off the table, this animal, when it died of neglect,
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9:33 - 9:35the keepers didn't let it into the hutch
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9:35 - 9:40on a cold night in Hobart. It died of exposure,
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9:40 - 9:42and in the morning, when they found the body of Benjamin,
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9:42 - 9:45they still cared so little for this animal
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9:45 - 9:48that they threw the body in the dump.
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9:48 - 9:51Does it have to stay this way?
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9:51 - 9:54In 1990, I was in the Australian Museum.
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9:54 - 9:58I was fascinated by thylacines. I've always been obsessed with these animals.
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9:58 - 10:00And I was studying skulls, trying to figure out
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10:00 - 10:02their relationships to other sorts of animals,
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10:02 - 10:06and I saw this jar, and here, in the jar,
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10:06 - 10:10was a little girl thylacine pup, perhaps six months old.
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10:10 - 10:13The guy who had found it and killed the mother
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10:13 - 10:16had pickled the pup and they pickled it in alcohol.
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10:16 - 10:20I'm a paleontologist, but I still knew alcohol was a DNA preservative.
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10:20 - 10:24But this was 1990, and I asked my geneticist friends,
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10:24 - 10:27couldn't we think about going into this pup
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10:27 - 10:30and extracting DNA, if it's there,
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10:30 - 10:32and then somewhere down the line in the future,
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10:32 - 10:34we'll use this DNA to bring the thylacine back?
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10:34 - 10:39The geneticists laughed. But this was six years before Dolly.
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10:39 - 10:41Cloning was science fiction. It had not happened.
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10:41 - 10:44But then suddenly cloning did happen.
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10:44 - 10:46And I thought, when I became director
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10:46 - 10:49of the Australian Museum, I'm going to give this a go.
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10:49 - 10:50I put a team together.
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10:50 - 10:53We went into that pup to see what was in there,
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10:53 - 10:56and we did find thylacine DNA. It was a eureka moment.
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10:56 - 10:57We were very excited.
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10:57 - 11:01Unfortunately, we also found a lot of human DNA.
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11:01 - 11:04Every old curator who'd been in that museum
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11:04 - 11:06had seen this wonderful specimen,
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11:06 - 11:08put their hand in the jar, pulled it out and thought,
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11:08 - 11:11"Wow, look at that," plop, dropped it back in the jar,
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11:11 - 11:13contaminating this specimen.
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11:13 - 11:16And that was a worry. If the goal here was to get the DNA out
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11:16 - 11:20and use the DNA down the track to try to bring a thylacine back,
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11:20 - 11:23what we didn't want happening when the information
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11:23 - 11:25was shoved into the machine and the wheel turned around
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11:25 - 11:27and the lights flashed, was to have a wizened old
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11:27 - 11:30horrible curator pop out the other end of the machine. (Laughter)
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11:30 - 11:32It would've kept the curator very happy,
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11:32 - 11:34but it wasn't going to keep us happy.
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11:34 - 11:37So we went back to these specimens and we started digging around,
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11:37 - 11:40and particularly we looked into the teeth of skulls,
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11:40 - 11:43hard parts where humans had not been able to get their fingers,
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11:43 - 11:46and we found much better quality DNA.
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11:46 - 11:49We found nuclear mitochondrial genes. It's there.
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11:49 - 11:50So we got it.
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11:50 - 11:52Okay. What could we do with this stuff?
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11:52 - 11:54Well, George Church in his book, "Regenesis,"
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11:54 - 11:57has mentioned many of the techniques that are rapidly advancing
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11:57 - 11:59to work with fragmented DNA.
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11:59 - 12:02We would hope that we'll be able to get that DNA back
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12:02 - 12:06into a viable form, and then, much like we've done with the Lazarus Project,
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12:06 - 12:10get that stuff into an egg of a host species.
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12:10 - 12:11It has to be a different species.
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12:11 - 12:14What could it be? Why couldn't it be a Tasmanian devil?
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12:14 - 12:16They're related distantly to thylacines.
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12:16 - 12:19And then the Tasmanian devil is going to pop
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12:19 - 12:21a thylacine out the south end.
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12:21 - 12:24Critics of this project say, hang on.
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12:24 - 12:28Thylacine, Tasmanian devil? That's going to hurt.
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12:28 - 12:31No, it's not. These are marsupials.
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12:31 - 12:34They give birth to babies that are the size of a jelly bean.
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12:34 - 12:37That Tasmanian devil's not even going to know it gave birth.
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12:37 - 12:40It is, shortly, going to think it's got the ugliest
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12:40 - 12:42Tasmanian devil baby in the world,
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12:42 - 12:46so maybe it'll need some help to keep it going.
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12:46 - 12:49Andrew Pask and his colleagues have demonstrated
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12:49 - 12:51this might not be a waste of time.
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12:51 - 12:53And it's sort of in the future, we haven't got there yet,
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12:53 - 12:54but it's the kind of thing we want to think about.
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12:54 - 12:58They took some of this same pickled thylacine DNA
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12:58 - 13:02and they spliced it into a mouse genome,
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13:02 - 13:04but they put a tag on it so that anything
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13:04 - 13:07that this thylacine DNA produced
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13:07 - 13:10would appear blue-green in the mouse baby.
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13:10 - 13:13In other words, if thylacine tissues were being produced
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13:13 - 13:16by the thylacine DNA, it would be able to be recognized.
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13:16 - 13:20When the baby popped up, it was filled with blue-green tissues.
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13:20 - 13:23And that tells us if we can get that genome back together,
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13:23 - 13:27get it into a live cell, it's going to produce thylacine stuff.
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13:27 - 13:29Is this a risk?
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13:29 - 13:31You've taken the bits of one animal
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13:31 - 13:34and you've mixed them into the cell of a different kind of an animal.
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13:34 - 13:36Are we going to get a Frankenstein?
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13:36 - 13:38You know, some kind of weird hybrid chimera?
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13:38 - 13:40And the answer is no.
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13:40 - 13:43If the only nuclear DNA that goes into this hybrid cell
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13:43 - 13:46is thylacine DNA, that's the only thing that can pop out
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13:46 - 13:48the other end of the devil.
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13:48 - 13:52Okay, if we can do this, could we put it back?
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13:52 - 13:54This is a key question for everybody.
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13:54 - 13:55Does it have to stay in a laboratory,
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13:55 - 13:57or could we put it back where it belongs?
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13:57 - 14:00Could we put it back in the throne of the king of beasts
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14:00 - 14:02in Tasmania where it belongs, restore that ecosystem?
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14:02 - 14:05Or has Tasmania changed so much
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14:05 - 14:07that that's no longer possible?
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14:07 - 14:10I've been to Tasmania. I've been to many of the areas
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14:10 - 14:11where the thylacines were common.
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14:11 - 14:15I've even spoken to people, like Peter Carter here,
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14:15 - 14:17who when I spoke to him was 90 years old,
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14:17 - 14:21but in 1926, this man and his father and his brother
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14:21 - 14:24caught thylacines. They trapped them.
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14:24 - 14:25And it just, when I spoke to this man,
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14:25 - 14:28I was looking in his eyes and thinking,
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14:28 - 14:30behind those eyes is a brain
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14:30 - 14:34that has memories of what thylacines feel like,
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14:34 - 14:37what they smelled like, what they sounded like.
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14:37 - 14:38He led them around on a rope.
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14:38 - 14:40He has personal experiences
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14:40 - 14:44that I would give my left leg to have in my head.
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14:44 - 14:46We'd all love to have this sort of thing happen.
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14:46 - 14:49Anyway, I asked Peter, by any chance,
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14:49 - 14:51could he take us back to where he caught those thylacines.
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14:51 - 14:53My interest was in whether the environment had changed.
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14:53 - 14:56He thought hard. I mean, it was nearly 80 years before this
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14:56 - 14:58that he'd been at this hut.
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14:58 - 15:00At any rate, he led us down this bush track,
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15:00 - 15:03and there, right where he remembered, was the hut,
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15:03 - 15:06and tears came into his eyes.
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15:06 - 15:07He looked at the hut. We went inside.
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15:07 - 15:09There were the wooden boards on the sides of the hut
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15:09 - 15:12where he and his father and his brother had slept at night.
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15:12 - 15:15And he told me, as it all was flooding back in memories.
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15:15 - 15:18He said, "I remember the thylacines going around the hut
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15:18 - 15:20wondering what was inside," and he said
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15:20 - 15:23they made sounds like "Yip! Yip! Yip!"
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15:23 - 15:26All of these are parts of his life and what he remembers.
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15:26 - 15:29And the key question for me was to ask Peter,
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15:29 - 15:31has it changed? And he said no.
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15:31 - 15:33The southern beech forests surrounded his hut
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15:33 - 15:36just like it was when he was there in 1926.
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15:36 - 15:38The grasslands were sweeping away.
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15:38 - 15:40That's classic thylacine habitat.
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15:40 - 15:42And the animals in those areas were the same
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15:42 - 15:43that were there when the thylacine was around.
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15:43 - 15:47So could we put it back? Yes.
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15:47 - 15:50Is that all we would do? And this is an interesting question.
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15:50 - 15:53Sometimes you might be able to put it back,
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15:53 - 15:54but is that the safest way to make sure
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15:54 - 15:57it never goes extinct again, and I don't think so.
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15:57 - 16:00I think gradually, as we see species all around the world,
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16:00 - 16:03it's kind of a mantra that wildlife is increasingly
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16:03 - 16:05not safe in the wild.
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16:05 - 16:07We'd love to think it is, but we know it isn't.
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16:07 - 16:09We need other parallel strategies coming online.
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16:09 - 16:11And this one interests me.
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16:11 - 16:13Some of the thylacines that were being turned into zoos,
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16:13 - 16:15sanctuaries, even at the museums,
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16:15 - 16:17had collar marks on the neck.
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16:17 - 16:19They were being kept as pets,
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16:19 - 16:22and we know a lot of bush tales and memories
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16:22 - 16:24of people who had them as pets,
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16:24 - 16:26and they say they were wonderful, friendly.
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16:26 - 16:29This particular one came in out of the forest
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16:29 - 16:32to lick this boy and curled up
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16:32 - 16:34around the fireplace to go to sleep. A wild animal.
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16:34 - 16:37And I'd like to ask the question, all of --
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16:37 - 16:39we need to think about this.
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16:39 - 16:43If it had not been illegal to keep these thylacines as pets
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16:43 - 16:46then, would the thylacine be extinct now?
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16:46 - 16:48And I'm positive it wouldn't.
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16:48 - 16:51We need to think about this in today's world.
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16:51 - 16:54Could it be that getting animals close to us
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16:54 - 16:57so that we value them, maybe they won't go extinct?
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16:57 - 16:59And this is such a critical issue for us,
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16:59 - 17:02because if we don't do that, we're going to watch
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17:02 - 17:05more of these animals plunge off the precipice.
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17:05 - 17:07As far as I'm concerned, this is why
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17:07 - 17:10we're trying to do these kinds of de-extinction projects.
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17:10 - 17:14We are trying to restore that balance of nature
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17:14 - 17:16that we have upset.
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17:16 - 17:17Thank you.
-
17:17 - 17:20(Applause)
- Title:
- How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger
- Speaker:
- Michael Archer
- Description:
-
The gastric brooding frog lays its eggs just like any other frog -- then swallows them whole to incubate. That is, it did until it went extinct 30 years ago. Paleontologist Michael Archer makes a case to bring back the gastric brooding frog and the thylacine, commonly known as the Tasmanian tiger. (Filmed at TEDxDeExtinction.)
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDTalks
- Duration:
- 17:36
Krystian Aparta commented on English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger | ||
Krystian Aparta edited English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger | ||
Krystian Aparta edited English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger | ||
Thu-Huong Ha edited English subtitles for How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger |
Krystian Aparta
The English transcript was updated on 12/14/2015.