Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków
-
0:01 - 0:05Ladies and gentlemen, as Paul [said],
-
0:05 - 0:10my hobby, and at the same time
profession, is physics. -
0:10 - 0:13And this is, for me,
a very lucky coincidence. -
0:13 - 0:18And I think, as Democritus once said,
-
0:18 - 0:19I can also repeat now,
-
0:19 - 0:25that I would rather prefer
to discover one causal law -
0:25 - 0:27than be King of Persia.
-
0:27 - 0:34And I am pretty sure there is
a lot of phenomena -
0:34 - 0:36awaiting our discovery...
-
0:36 - 0:40Oh, let me know... Yeah, it's working.
-
0:40 - 0:44[Phenomena] which are occurring,
perhaps, even now, here, -
0:44 - 0:46but we do not recognize them.
-
0:46 - 0:50And I have my personal proof for that,
-
0:50 - 0:52at least it is convincing [to] me.
-
0:52 - 0:57That was an astonishment
I experienced once, -
0:57 - 1:01when working at this nice,
and even cozy accelerator, -
1:01 - 1:06when a friend of mine
came to my office, and... -
1:06 - 1:08(Phone rings twice)
-
1:08 - 1:10And something like that happened,
and then he [said], -
1:10 - 1:16"Please pick it up,
because this is an external call." -
1:16 - 1:21So I excused [myself] for a moment,
-
1:21 - 1:24and then it was, indeed, an external call.
-
1:24 - 1:27And then I asked him,
"How do you know that?" -
1:27 - 1:29And this was the explanation.
-
1:29 - 1:33This was the external call.
(Phone rings twice) -
1:33 - 1:36And this is an internal call.
(Phone rings once) -
1:36 - 1:38(Laughter)
-
1:38 - 1:41Many of you
are also working in institutions, -
1:41 - 1:44you recognize that, perhaps.
-
1:44 - 1:47I [had been] working there for many years,
-
1:47 - 1:50in that office, and didn't realize that.
-
1:50 - 1:52(Laughter)
-
1:52 - 1:56And this was...
-
1:56 - 2:00I learned a good lesson of humility.
-
2:00 - 2:02A painful lesson for the researcher
-
2:02 - 2:05whose ambition is to [discover], say,
-
2:06 - 2:08less trivial things than that.
-
2:08 - 2:09(Laughter)
-
2:09 - 2:11So... (Laughter)
-
2:11 - 2:13But this also gave me a promise
-
2:13 - 2:16that there is a chance
to discover something -- -
2:16 - 2:18(Laughter)
-
2:18 - 2:19[Something] I didn't notice till now.
-
2:19 - 2:22And today, I would like to tell you a story
-
2:22 - 2:24more successful, for me, at least,
-
2:24 - 2:32about antimatter-based molecular imaging
of the whole human body. -
2:32 - 2:34So, what do I mean by that?
-
2:34 - 2:38So I would like to tell you
about an idea, or invention. -
2:38 - 2:40About a cylinder,
-
2:40 - 2:46a device which [will] one day
perhaps surround a person. -
2:46 - 2:50And with that device, I hope,
we will be able, in the future, -
2:50 - 2:52to make tomographic images,
-
2:52 - 2:56non-invasive pictures of the human body,
-
2:56 - 2:58of the whole human body.
-
2:58 - 3:02So perhaps a less scientific topic
-
3:02 - 3:05of my presentation today could be:
-
3:05 - 3:08"How I have reinvented the cylinder."
-
3:08 - 3:10But now, after you laughed truly
-
3:10 - 3:15when Charles Crawford
was showing a formula, -
3:15 - 3:17I think I'm obliged now to give a lesson,
-
3:17 - 3:22before we go farther off
solid-state physics, -
3:22 - 3:26atomic physics, nuclear physics,
-
3:26 - 3:28and then, at the end, particle physics.
-
3:28 - 3:32That's all we need to understand
the rest of the talk. -
3:32 - 3:33(Laughter)
-
3:33 - 3:35But... (Laughter)
-
3:35 - 3:36Then, [looking at] some of you,
-
3:36 - 3:39I see colleagues from my institute [here],
-
3:39 - 3:43younger, [who] have perhaps
already attended such lectures. -
3:43 - 3:48I will [do] this in a way I'm sure
none of you have [been] shown, -
3:48 - 3:51because I would like to start from --
-
3:51 - 3:54I should point it here --
-
3:54 - 3:59from the bush I made
a photo of in my garden. -
3:59 - 4:02So, as a researcher, you might
put [your] head inside it, -
4:02 - 4:06and then you recognize there is
a lot of fruits there. -
4:06 - 4:10But with a scope,
perhaps you could go farther. -
4:10 - 4:13And now, let us skip molecular physics.
-
4:13 - 4:15These fruits are surely from molecules,
-
4:15 - 4:18and the molecules are from atoms.
-
4:18 - 4:19(Laughter)
-
4:19 - 4:20(Applause)
-
4:20 - 4:23So, now...(Applause)
-
4:23 - 4:27Now we are already
at atomic physics, and this is, now -- -
4:27 - 4:30(Laughter)
-
4:30 - 4:33[It's] very important to recognize that --
-
4:33 - 4:36and this is really important
for the rest of the talk -- -
4:36 - 4:38that this is not to scale,
and I could not -- -
4:38 - 4:40(Laughter)
-
4:40 - 4:41[I] could not plot it to scale,
-
4:41 - 4:46because the nucleus is much smaller,
-
4:46 - 4:48in comparison to the size of the atom.
-
4:48 - 4:51And that is why some of the particles
-
4:51 - 4:55can just traverse
through the human body, or matter, -
4:55 - 4:57if they are energetic enough.
-
4:57 - 4:59And then, in the next [figure],
-
4:59 - 5:01let us go to nuclear physics.
-
5:01 - 5:02This is the nucleus.
-
5:02 - 5:06And then, quickly, to particle physics.
-
5:06 - 5:08The nucleus is [composed of] quarks.
-
5:08 - 5:12And now, going back
to the word "antimatter," -
5:12 - 5:15now [we have] really come to the point.
-
5:15 - 5:18There are also quarks and anti-quarks.
-
5:18 - 5:21So, they are the objects
which I am really studying -
5:21 - 5:23in my daily life.
-
5:23 - 5:26[They] are called mesons,
not important for this talk, -
5:26 - 5:29but I am doing that,
so I had to mention that. -
5:29 - 5:30(Laughter)
-
5:30 - 5:35And mesons are built out of
matter and antimatter. -
5:35 - 5:37That's why they can only live
[a very short time]. -
5:37 - 5:40If that quark and anti-quark
touch each other, -
5:40 - 5:44it disappears in the form of energy.
-
5:44 - 5:47And now, for the imaging,
we need something similar. -
5:47 - 5:50But we cannot have
a meson in the laboratory, -
5:50 - 5:52because it lives [only] for a while,
-
5:52 - 5:56not worth mentioning.
-
5:56 - 6:00But there is another source of antimatter
-
6:00 - 6:01that we have in the laboratories,
-
6:01 - 6:05in most nuclear physics laboratories,
-
6:05 - 6:08which [are] the isotopes,
-
6:08 - 6:14the atoms, or substances,
like fluorine, like oxygen, -
6:14 - 6:16but which can radioactively decay.
-
6:16 - 6:18And this we all know.
-
6:18 - 6:21But there is one radioactive decay
which is very special. -
6:21 - 6:23Which out of those three [types],
-
6:23 - 6:25Alpha, Beta and Gamma,
-
6:25 - 6:29Beta is the most mysterious one
or the most mystic [one]. -
6:29 - 6:30And this is like that.
-
6:30 - 6:36One of the nucleons inside the nucleus,
-
6:36 - 6:39decays, as it was shown here.
-
6:39 - 6:41Oh, let me come back.
-
6:41 - 6:45To an anti-electron, it is e+ here.
-
6:45 - 6:47It's not an electron, but an anti-electron.
-
6:47 - 6:50The electron has a "minus."
-
6:50 - 6:52And this is an anti-electron.
-
6:52 - 6:53This is something which,
-
6:53 - 6:57if it touched the electron,
-
6:57 - 6:59then annihilation [would] occur,
-
6:59 - 7:02and you would have energy.
-
7:02 - 7:07So now, which is already used in the world,
-
7:07 - 7:09you can cheat a little,
-
7:09 - 7:11and make, for example, radioactive sugar,
-
7:11 - 7:13instead of usual sugar.
-
7:13 - 7:15The radioactive sugar is just sugar,
-
7:15 - 7:19made, for example, with fluorine,
-
7:19 - 7:21but instead of usual fluorine,
-
7:21 - 7:24you take radioactive fluorine,
-
7:24 - 7:26which then emits positrons,
-
7:26 - 7:28those anti-electrons.
-
7:28 - 7:31And you [can] administer that
to the patient -
7:31 - 7:32like you see in that picture.
-
7:32 - 7:35And then, all the processes with the sugar
-
7:35 - 7:36which occur in the body,
-
7:36 - 7:40are exactly the same
as with the usual sugar, -
7:40 - 7:42but from time to time you have a signal
-
7:42 - 7:43from the interior of the body,
-
7:43 - 7:47because this decay happens there.
-
7:47 - 7:49And now, if you look --
-
7:49 - 7:51If this decay happens somewhere,
-
7:51 - 7:54you have this anti-electron.
-
7:54 - 7:56If it touches the electron --
-
7:56 - 7:57we are in the first order,
-
7:57 - 8:00from electrons
and those nuclei, nothing else. -
8:00 - 8:02So if it touches this electron,
-
8:02 - 8:06then they annihilate,
because it was matter and antimatter. -
8:06 - 8:08And those two photons,
-
8:08 - 8:09two gamma quanta,
-
8:09 - 8:13are flying in a line,
apart from each other. -
8:13 - 8:15And they are energetic,
-
8:15 - 8:18energetic enough to go through atoms.
-
8:18 - 8:21So they can go outside of the body.
-
8:21 - 8:26And now, we are close
to the explanation of that word. -
8:26 - 8:27So we had a positron,
-
8:27 - 8:29we had emission,
-
8:29 - 8:30and now we have detectors,
-
8:30 - 8:33so we have Positron Emission Tomography,
-
8:33 - 8:34with those detectors.
-
8:34 - 8:37Now it's enough to put [detectors]
around the human body, -
8:37 - 8:41which are capable of detecting
those gamma quanta. -
8:41 - 8:46And you can [take] a picture
of the interior of the body, -
8:46 - 8:49or [first of all], you can [take] a picture
-
8:49 - 8:55of where those sugars
were distributed around the organism. -
8:55 - 8:59And now, you may wonder
how one can do that. -
8:59 - 9:01I have an easy example, the simplest one.
-
9:01 - 9:05Let's assume [all] the sugar administered
-
9:05 - 9:08was just absorbed
in one place in the brain. -
9:08 - 9:12Let's say that
that [unfortunate] person had a [tumor], -
9:12 - 9:15and this was absorbed
really point-like, in one place. -
9:15 - 9:20Then, it's very easy to imagine
how you can [take] a picture -
9:20 - 9:21of that brain, or that point,
-
9:21 - 9:23Because what we measure --
(Camera shutter sound) -
9:23 - 9:29Let's say those points,
those blue rectangles, are detectors. -
9:29 - 9:31Something which can register.
-
9:31 - 9:33OK, a bulb.
-
9:33 - 9:37If you put a current into the bulb,
then you see the light. -
9:37 - 9:40If you put the light to the detectors,
you see the current. -
9:40 - 9:42Shall I say, it's an anti-bulb.
-
9:42 - 9:47So what [do] we have? We...
-
9:47 - 9:48We [administered] a sugar,
-
9:48 - 9:50then that sugar is sometimes
decaying somewhere. -
9:50 - 9:54In that case, it's always decaying here.
-
9:54 - 9:56And we measured the signal here and here.
-
9:56 - 9:57There is a lot of cables there.
-
9:57 - 9:59But we know it was here and here.
-
9:59 - 10:03So what we do is to plot a line.
-
10:03 - 10:07But we don't know
[where] this sugar was, along this line. -
10:07 - 10:10But it's of course decaying
in different directions. (Shutter sound) -
10:10 - 10:13So it's enough to have
two such lines, (Shutter sound) -
10:13 - 10:15and you know the point.
-
10:15 - 10:17So now it's very easy to imagine
-
10:17 - 10:20that you can [take]
such a picture of the [whole] body. -
10:20 - 10:23OK, it's not as easy
as I plot it now, but... -
10:23 - 10:25(Laughter)
-
10:25 - 10:29But it's imaginable.
-
10:29 - 10:32And this is how a person sees that.
-
10:32 - 10:34So you put [them into a] plastic box,
-
10:34 - 10:40and then on the screen
you have [an image] of your brain. -
10:40 - 10:43But now, what is the problem to be solved,
-
10:43 - 10:45or what is the challenge here.
-
10:45 - 10:47The challenge is that such devices
are very expensive, -
10:47 - 10:5120 million Polish zlotys. That's one.
-
10:51 - 10:55So there is only a few of them in Poland.
-
10:55 - 10:56They are short.
-
10:56 - 11:01It means you cannot make
an image of the whole person. -
11:01 - 11:03As you saw in this picture,
-
11:03 - 11:08there are short rings around the patient.
-
11:08 - 11:11And now, there is one more problem,
or a challenge. -
11:11 - 11:17How to improve the sharpness of that image?
-
11:17 - 11:23And now, please look at that picture here.
-
11:23 - 11:27This is a picture
that I would like to [use] to [explain] -
11:27 - 11:30the problem with the smearing of the image.
-
11:30 - 11:34So, let's say this anti-electron
-
11:34 - 11:37touched an electron here,
we had two photons, -
11:37 - 11:41two gamma quanta,
and they react here and here. -
11:41 - 11:42But we don't know this.
-
11:42 - 11:46We know only that it was
somewhere in the detector. -
11:46 - 11:50Because we have here a cable,
and the signal from the detector. -
11:50 - 11:52Ah, sorry.
-
11:52 - 11:55(Camera shutter sounds)
-
11:55 - 11:57Sorry.
-
11:57 - 12:00So now, what we can plot
-
12:00 - 12:02is the line from the middle of the detector
-
12:02 - 12:03to the middle of the detector.
-
12:03 - 12:05So we make a mistake.
-
12:05 - 12:09Because, in that case,
we know the true line is here, -
12:09 - 12:11but we reconstruct that line.
-
12:11 - 12:15And this caused the smearing of the image.
-
12:15 - 12:19So now, there is one trivial way
to overcome this. -
12:19 - 12:23The trivial way is to make these detectors
smaller and smaller, -
12:23 - 12:26but then you increase
and increase the cost, -
12:26 - 12:30because you increase
the number of the bulbs. -
12:30 - 12:34And this is, now, the idea I had.
-
12:34 - 12:37Just, instead of making that,
-
12:37 - 12:39let's change the paradigm completely.
-
12:39 - 12:43Let's use a huge block
instead of small pieces. -
12:43 - 12:48And let's try to find something out
-
12:48 - 12:53when the gamma heated the detector inside.
-
12:53 - 13:00And this is just the idea,
which is the direct transfer -
13:00 - 13:04of the detectors we have
in that experiment. -
13:04 - 13:05This is one of the experiments
-
13:05 - 13:10I spent perhaps 15 years researching.
-
13:10 - 13:14And with those detectors
we were studying those mesons. -
13:14 - 13:15And we were measuring --
-
13:15 - 13:17this is part of the accelerator --
-
13:18 - 13:19we were measuring the time
-
13:19 - 13:22[in which] particles
travel from there to here. -
13:22 - 13:25This is nanoseconds, a very short time.
-
13:25 - 13:26But if you look at that --
-
13:26 - 13:32These were strips of plastic material
-
13:32 - 13:35which allowed to measure the particles.
-
13:35 - 13:38In a closer view,
it may be plotted like that. -
13:38 - 13:40You have a strip of the material.
-
13:40 - 13:44If something hits it,
a particle, a gamma quantum, -
13:44 - 13:46then there is a light inside,
-
13:46 - 13:47and if it is in the middle,
-
13:47 - 13:49then the time of the light signal
to that side, -
13:49 - 13:53to this bulb, and to that bulb,
is the same. -
13:53 - 13:56If it is closer to that --
-
13:56 - 13:58"PM" is not the abbreviation of my name,
-
13:58 - 14:00it is "photomultiplier."
-
14:00 - 14:01(Laughter)
-
14:01 - 14:03If it is closer to that,
-
14:03 - 14:06then this time is shorter,
this time is longer. -
14:06 - 14:08So from the difference of times,
-
14:08 - 14:11you can define
when this gamma quantum really hit it. -
14:11 - 14:12Very simple.
-
14:12 - 14:16This is used in all physics experiments,
-
14:16 - 14:18particle and nuclear physics experiments.
-
14:18 - 14:23And now, the only thing to [do was],
-
14:23 - 14:26how to make a tomograph [out of that].
-
14:26 - 14:31And then, this is again something
like reinventing the circle, -
14:31 - 14:35one can think of taking
this wall of those strips, -
14:35 - 14:39and making a cylinder out of that.
-
14:39 - 14:42And now, you have those strips.
-
14:42 - 14:44You can put a bulb here, a bulb there,
-
14:44 - 14:49so you know when this gamma
from the human body hit, and in which way. -
14:49 - 14:51You can put a patient here, inside.
-
14:51 - 14:53This can be large.
-
14:53 - 14:57The number of those photomultipliers,
of those bulbs, -
14:57 - 14:59does not increase when you enlarge that.
-
14:59 - 15:02You may make this as large as you like.
-
15:02 - 15:07Even more, you can make
more of such cylinders. -
15:07 - 15:12And then, you can increase the probability
-
15:12 - 15:18of detecting these gamma quanta.
-
15:18 - 15:22So now, the dream which we are trying
to realize with my colleagues, -
15:22 - 15:28is to build such a tomograph,
which would allow for -
15:28 - 15:31such molecular imaging
of the whole human body. -
15:31 - 15:33Now it's clear.
-
15:33 - 15:34But now, what --
-
15:35 - 15:36(Beep)
-
15:36 - 15:38What is with that?
-
15:38 - 15:39(Phone rings twice)
-
15:39 - 15:42Now, you may believe it or not,
-
15:42 - 15:44I conceived [of] that cylinder
-
15:44 - 15:49out of that detector which you saw.
-
15:49 - 15:53But then, I realized that I was working
in collaboration with -
15:53 - 15:56a laboratory who has such a cylinder.
-
15:56 - 15:58This is the one in Italy.
-
15:58 - 16:014 meters large, with scintillators,
with those materials, -
16:01 - 16:03and we are [doing] experiments there.
-
16:03 - 16:07Then, when preparing this talk...
-
16:07 - 16:12Oh, that again. (Phone rings once)
-
16:12 - 16:15I realized that I was
working on an experiment -
16:15 - 16:20which had such a huge
barrel of scintillator. -
16:20 - 16:22And I am working on another experiment,
-
16:22 - 16:24which when you look inside,
-
16:24 - 16:27there is again a barrel of scintillator.
-
16:27 - 16:31So, you may [see] here how large
those barrels are. -
16:31 - 16:35A person could even walk inside,
if this [worked]. -
16:35 - 16:39So there is a chance to really
[make] such a tomograph, -
16:39 - 16:42especially that such technology
is used nowadays, -
16:42 - 16:44in particle and nuclear physics.
-
16:44 - 16:48And I hope, like Rafał told us,
-
16:48 - 16:50that somebody will take
his message seriously, -
16:50 - 16:55and somebody clever
will just make this tomograph -
16:55 - 16:58in some groups which are rich enough
-
16:58 - 17:00to build all those bulbs, and so on.
-
17:00 - 17:02But independently,
-
17:02 - 17:06I and my colleagues are trying
to do that here in Cracow. -
17:06 - 17:08And then...
-
17:08 - 17:10(Phone rings twice)
-
17:10 - 17:14This is just to point
to the end of my talk. -
17:14 - 17:15Thank you very much.
-
17:15 - 17:16(Applause)
- Title:
- Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków
- Description:
-
Dr Paweł Moskal describes his research, which shows promise to create higher resolution full-body medical imaging instruments that would be more affordable for developing countries than current technologies.
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDxTalks
- Duration:
- 17:19
Krystian Aparta edited English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków | ||
Krystian Aparta edited English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków | ||
Ben Dean-Kawamura edited English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków | ||
Ben Dean-Kawamura edited English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków | ||
Ben Dean-Kawamura edited English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków | ||
Ben Dean-Kawamura edited English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków | ||
Ivana Korom approved English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków | ||
Ivana Korom accepted English subtitles for Medical imaging with anti-matter - Paweł Moskal at TEDxKraków |