Econ Duel: Is Education Signaling or Skill Building?
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0:00 - 0:02♪ (music) ♪
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0:10 - 0:13[Tyler] Alex's office is just
down the hall from mine. -
0:13 - 0:15He and I write a blog together
-
0:15 - 0:18and we've been arguing
for 25 years now. -
0:18 - 0:20So we thought we'd do
some arguing for you. -
0:20 - 0:22This is about education.
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0:22 - 0:25Alex thinks education
is mostly about signaling, -
0:25 - 0:27namely demonstrating to the outside world
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0:27 - 0:29your underlying level of talent.
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0:29 - 0:33Whereas I think education
is mostly about learning. -
0:33 - 0:36So Alex, why don't you just tell us
a bit about how wrong you are? -
0:36 - 0:40[Alex] All right, but let's be clear
first about what we're arguing about. -
0:40 - 0:43It's very obvious that people
who go to college earn more. -
0:43 - 0:47Their incomes are higher.
The question is, why? -
0:47 - 0:48So I see there's three basic views.
-
0:48 - 0:52The first view is that the people
who go to college are just smarter, -
0:52 - 0:55they have higher IQ, more ability,
something like that. -
0:55 - 0:58And that view says that
if these people didn't go to college, -
0:58 - 1:02they'd still be earning more
because of their natural abilities. -
1:02 - 1:05The second view, the human capital view,
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1:05 - 1:08is that people are actually
learning something in college -
1:08 - 1:10which is increasing their productivity.
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1:10 - 1:12This is the highly optimistic Tyler view.
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1:12 - 1:15That's my view, yes.
[Laughter] -
1:15 - 1:17And then we get to the correct view.
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1:17 - 1:21So the correct view, the signaling view,
is that by going to college, -
1:21 - 1:23people are sending a signal
to the job market -
1:23 - 1:26that they have higher IQ
or have greater ability, -
1:26 - 1:30but if they didn't send that signal,
if they didn't go to college, -
1:30 - 1:32their income would be much lower.
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1:32 - 1:36So you've got to send the signal
to get the higher income. -
1:36 - 1:39It's funny but most people
who believe in the signaling theory, -
1:39 - 1:41they actually learned it in school.
-
1:41 - 1:43Well, we've got to learn
something in school. -
1:43 - 1:45Here's the striking thing about education.
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1:45 - 1:47If you put an extra person
through college, -
1:47 - 1:50and they're earning more,
many, many years later. -
1:50 - 1:51It's because they learned something.
-
1:51 - 1:54If it were just a signal, they might
start off with a better job, -
1:54 - 1:57but then the world would see, well,
they really hadn't learned much -
1:57 - 1:59and over time,
their earnings would decline. -
1:59 - 2:04Well, oddly you think that the market
is more efficient than maybe even I do. -
2:04 - 2:09Look, take a look at the peacock's tail,
a classic example of a signal. -
2:09 - 2:12So the peacock is signaling
that it's macho, -
2:12 - 2:13it's got lots of good genes.
-
2:13 - 2:15Evolution has had hundreds
of thousands of years -
2:15 - 2:18to come up with a better way
of doing this. -
2:18 - 2:20The peacock's tail is a big waste.
-
2:20 - 2:22If evolution couldn't have
figured out a way -
2:22 - 2:24out of this signaling problem,
-
2:24 - 2:27then maybe the private markets
can't do so either. -
2:27 - 2:30Peacocks can't just go up
and take the SATs -
2:30 - 2:32or any other standardized test.
-
2:32 - 2:36If education were just about a signal,
it would be very easy to cut out -
2:36 - 2:40the middle man of the college,
give everyone an SAT or IQ test, -
2:40 - 2:42and just send them
to the jobs they ought to be at. -
2:42 - 2:46But no, people need social context.
They need to learn critical thinking. -
2:46 - 2:48They need to learn creativity.
-
2:48 - 2:50And all of that goes on
in higher education. -
2:50 - 2:53Look, it's not just about IQ.
We all know smart people -
2:53 - 2:56who have lots of trouble in the workforce.
-
2:56 - 3:00You've actually got to do
something hard. And it is hard. -
3:00 - 3:03Most people don't like education,
so it's hard for them to get a degree. -
3:03 - 3:06You've got to demonstrate
some persistence. -
3:06 - 3:10So it's not easy to find a way of--
something which is hard. -
3:10 - 3:14It's not easy for the private markets
to find a way of duplicating this. -
3:14 - 3:18Especially when everyone
is doing it already. -
3:18 - 3:23It looks really odd for a smart person
not to have a college degree today. -
3:23 - 3:25We pay you a salary at George Mason
-
3:25 - 3:28and we pay you most of all
because of what you know -
3:28 - 3:31and what you do, right?
Not because of signaling. -
3:31 - 3:33Signaling may be true
in the short run... -
3:33 - 3:35your first job, you have a fancy degree...
-
3:35 - 3:39but over time, the market sorts out
who is productive and who is not. -
3:39 - 3:41Getting that credential though,
it's so important. -
3:41 - 3:44Even to get a job
as a street sweeper today, -
3:44 - 3:46you need a degree.
-
3:46 - 3:49And that's not because you learn
anything about street sweeping. -
3:49 - 3:52It's because
people require this credential -
3:52 - 3:54and that increases their wages.
-
3:54 - 3:58A lot of what you learn in education,
it's not just the facts or the textbooks, -
3:58 - 3:59it's about social context.
-
3:59 - 4:02It's about dealing
with different personality types. -
4:02 - 4:04It's about how to submit to authority.
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4:04 - 4:07It's about how to be conscientious
in all the right ways. -
4:07 - 4:11So when employers want a degree,
it makes a lot of sense actually. -
4:11 - 4:14You're getting the workers
who have learned a bunch of things. -
4:14 - 4:17Just getting your foot
in the door is a huge amount -
4:17 - 4:20of your entire future career.
Let's imagine, -
4:20 - 4:22you went to Harvard,
suppose you didn't go to Harvard, okay? -
4:22 - 4:25I think you'd be doing pretty well.
-
4:25 - 4:27You have ability, high ability bias, okay?
-
4:27 - 4:29You'd be writing for newspapers
or something like that. -
4:29 - 4:31But you wouldn't have been able
to be a professor. -
4:31 - 4:33Without that credential in your hand,
-
4:33 - 4:35you wouldn't be teaching
at George Mason today. -
4:35 - 4:38I think your income would be lower.
You'd still be famous, -
4:38 - 4:40but your income would be
quite a bit lower. -
4:40 - 4:42But look, even if you look
at self-employed people, -
4:42 - 4:44when they're better educated
they learn more. -
4:44 - 4:47And that's not a question
of getting a foot in the door. -
4:47 - 4:48These are people who work for themselves.
-
4:48 - 4:51What you learn from school
is a lot about social context, -
4:51 - 4:54and authority, and making connections,
-
4:54 - 4:57and figuring out a big picture
of how the world works. -
4:57 - 4:58You might earn a skill, too.
-
4:58 - 5:02Would you want to drive
over a bridge built by an engineer -
5:02 - 5:03who had not gone to Caltech?
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5:03 - 5:06- [Tyler] Probably not.
- [Alex] Well, that's a very nice story to tell, -
5:06 - 5:08that education teaches these social goods
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5:08 - 5:10and interaction with people.
-
5:10 - 5:14It's kind of funny though, isn't it,
to say that what we're really teaching -
5:14 - 5:16is stuff that we're not actually teaching?
-
5:16 - 5:20I don't actually teach those skills,
but students just get them by osmosis? -
5:20 - 5:22That seems hard to believe.
-
5:22 - 5:24Funny but true.
And look, when you teach, -
5:24 - 5:26you should pull
your students aside and say, -
5:26 - 5:28"Look, here's how it really works.
-
5:28 - 5:30Here's what the profession
is really like." -
5:30 - 5:33But you're communicating
things to them which are deeper -
5:33 - 5:35than what you intend
at any point in time. -
5:35 - 5:37- [Tyler] Yes, that's true.
- [Alex] I don't know. -
5:37 - 5:39I'm not sure I'm doing all of that.
Maybe you are. -
5:39 - 5:42- [Alex] Look, let me give you an example.
- [Tyler] Maybe we should pay you less. -
5:42 - 5:45Shh. Let me give an example.
Sometimes when I'm teaching, -
5:45 - 5:48I've got to go give a talk
at another university, -
5:48 - 5:51or go on a trip or something like that,
and I tell the students, -
5:51 - 5:53"Next week, class is canceled."
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5:53 - 5:56And they're happy, they're pleased, okay?
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5:56 - 5:58Maybe that's a little embarrassing to me,
-
5:58 - 6:00but it seems peculiar, right?
-
6:00 - 6:03If you went to the store
and you asked for a pair of jeans -
6:03 - 6:06and they gave you less, they gave you
a pair of shorts instead, -
6:06 - 6:09you'd be upset.
But when you tell the students, -
6:09 - 6:13"You're going to get less education,"
they're not upset. Well, why not? -
6:13 - 6:16They're not upset because they know
they're still going to get the degree, -
6:16 - 6:18and that's what counts.
-
6:18 - 6:20Let me ask you,
what would you rather have? -
6:20 - 6:23Would you rather have
a Harvard education without a degree? -
6:23 - 6:27Or would you rather have
the Harvard degree, the piece of paper, -
6:27 - 6:29without the education?
-
6:29 - 6:31Look, the question
isn't one or the other. -
6:31 - 6:35When you look at the data,
people in Scandinavian countries, -
6:35 - 6:38laws were changed, people had
to acquire an extra year of schooling, -
6:38 - 6:42which was not in any simple way
visible on their resumes -
6:42 - 6:45and still years later they earned more
because they learned more. -
6:45 - 6:49Look at the economic growth miracles:
South Korea, Singapore, China. -
6:49 - 6:54They invested in human capital,
developed highly talented labor forces. -
6:54 - 6:57Could Singapore be a leader
in biomedical technology -
6:57 - 7:00without good educational institutions?
No way. -
7:00 - 7:04These countries were growing before
they started to invest in education. -
7:04 - 7:07[Tyler] And they were able to upgrade
because they then educated. -
7:07 - 7:10There's also a lot of countries which
invested huge amounts of education, -
7:10 - 7:13they didn't grow at all.
In Africa, what happened there? -
7:13 - 7:16In Africa, they invested a lot
in education and they haven't grown. -
7:16 - 7:19This massive push
we have in the United States -
7:19 - 7:22that everybody has to have
a college education, -
7:22 - 7:25I think that's actually a problem.
Because what's really going on -
7:25 - 7:29is by forcing or by pushing
everybody into a college education, -
7:29 - 7:33we're raising their wages, yes,
but at the expense of people -
7:33 - 7:36who don't want a college education
or who don't have those abilities. -
7:36 - 7:39So in part there's
an negative externality there. -
7:39 - 7:42Pushing so many people
to get a college education -
7:42 - 7:45means that other people,
their wages are being lowered. -
7:45 - 7:48And we need to think about
those other people as well. -
7:48 - 7:50I agree that's often a problem,
but that's largely -
7:50 - 7:53because our K through 12 systems
are sometimes junk. -
7:53 - 7:56So the problem there is actually
not enough education at earlier levels. -
7:56 - 7:58Let's look at South Korea,
-
7:58 - 8:01maybe the world's greatest
economic growth miracle ever. -
8:01 - 8:07Eighty percent of South Koreans finish
with some kind of higher education degree. -
8:07 - 8:09And you see the results in their economy.
-
8:09 - 8:12Sure, South Korea is great,
but there are a lot of countries -
8:12 - 8:15which as I said, invested in education
and they're doing no better off. -
8:15 - 8:18You need more than
just education, that's true. -
8:18 - 8:20But the potential impact of education--
-
8:20 - 8:21Again the magic view:
-
8:21 - 8:24You need something else...
It's some combination... -
8:24 - 8:27You need good infrastructure.
You need good governance, right? -
8:27 - 8:29It's not only education,
no one never claimed that. -
8:29 - 8:32But look, when you go
and you actually get down -
8:32 - 8:36to the nitty gritty,
what do students remember? -
8:36 - 8:38They don't even remember
what they learned a year ago. -
8:38 - 8:41So how can what students learn today
-
8:41 - 8:45be increasing their productivity
20 years from now -
8:45 - 8:48if they can't even remember
what they learned a year ago? -
8:48 - 8:50They learned critical thinking.
They learned creativity. -
8:50 - 8:51They learned social context.
-
8:51 - 8:55They carry that with them,
even if they don't remember -
8:55 - 8:58what we taught them about
the elasticity of the demand curve. -
8:58 - 9:00"Elastic, inelastic, which is which?
My goodness!" -
9:00 - 9:03But that's maybe not
what they need to know. -
9:03 - 9:05It's a way of thought,
a way of approaching the world. -
9:05 - 9:07It's an acculturation.
-
9:07 - 9:11It's a way of advancing
into a higher socioeconomic stratum. -
9:11 - 9:14And mostly it works... when it's good.
-
9:14 - 9:16[Announcer] What do you think?
Click to vote. -
9:16 - 9:19You can learn more
about human capital and signaling -
9:19 - 9:22by checking out our Microeconomics course.
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9:28 - 9:30♪ (music) ♪
- Title:
- Econ Duel: Is Education Signaling or Skill Building?
- Description:
-
What’s the point of education?
Do you learn about things, because the learning itself matters, or is education all about the signal you -- and your degree -- send out to the world? Is education really about building skills, or does it serve only to transmit intangible traits, like your level of talent or your persistence?
These are the questions we’ll be tackling in this new Econ Duel debate from Marginal Revolution University.
And since we believe that nothing beats a good friend-vs-friend duel, we’ve picked two friends, whom you’re probably familiar with. For this debate on education as signaling vs. skill building, we’ve got Tyler Cowen and Alex Tabarrok, ready to go head-to-head.
You’ll see them argue about nearly everything—from peacocks, to private markets, to street sweepers, to Scandinavian education laws, and even the real value of Harvard University. In the end, you’ll see them duke things out, in a quest to determine education’s effect on our lives and well-being.
The video also asks:
-Why do students tend to rejoice when their professor cancels class?
-When we’re talking education, what really counts? Is it the soft skills, or the hard facts?
-If evolution still can’t sort out good vs. bad, can we really expect the market to do any better?
-Can the things you learn today still matter 20 years down the line?
-Why do peacocks still sport huge, colorful tails, despite the fact that evolution should’ve come up with a better signaling device by now?
Once you reach the end of the video, we have one specific request. It’s hugely important.
Ask yourself: “Is education only about signaling, or is it really about skill-building?”
Think it through and then let us know by voting at the end of the video!
Microeconomics Course: http://bit.ly/20VablY
Ask a question about the video: http://bit.ly/1Lbp9mn
Next video: http://bit.ly/1QED6LA
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- Marginal Revolution University
- Project:
- Micro
- Duration:
- 09:32
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