WEBVTT 00:00:03.787 --> 00:00:09.280 Οι άντρες ονειρεύονται τις γυναίκες Οι γυναίκες ονειρεύονται τον εαυτό τους να τις ονειρεύονται 00:00:09.280 --> 00:00:17.545 Οι άντρες κοιτούν τις γυναίκες Οι γυναίκες βλέπουν τον εαυτό τους να τον κοιτούν 00:00:48.326 --> 00:00:52.127 Οι γυναίκες διαρκώς συναντούν βλέματα που λειτουργούν σαν καθρέφτες 00:00:52.127 --> 00:00:56.368 υπενθυμίζοντας τους την εμφάνισή τους ή πώς αυτή θα έπρεπε να είναι. 00:00:56.816 --> 00:00:59.937 Πίσω από κάθε ματιά υπάρχει μια κρίση. 00:00:59.937 --> 00:01:06.947 Κάποιες φορές η ματιά μου συναντούν είναι η δική τους, αντανακλούμενη από έναν πραγματικό καθρέφτη. 00:02:21.118 --> 00:02:23.214 Μια γυναίκα πάντα συνοδεύεται, εκτός όταν 00:02:23.214 --> 00:02:26.209 είναι τελείως μόνη της. Και μπορεί ακόμα και τότε, από 00:02:26.209 --> 00:02:29.159 την εικόνα του ίδιου της του εαυτού. Καθώς περπατάει, 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:32.255 διασχίζοντας ένα δωμάτιο, ή κλαίγοντας για τον θάνατο του πατέρα της 00:02:32.255 --> 00:02:37.332 δεν μπορεί να αποφύγει να συλλαμβάνει τον εαυτό της, να περπατάει ή να κλαίει 00:02:37.332 --> 00:02:43.152 από την παιδική ηλικία, διδάσκεται και πείθεται να επιθεωρεί τον εαυτό της συνεχώς 00:02:43.918 --> 00:02:47.301 Πρέπει να επιθεωρεί όλα όσα είναι και όλα όσα κάνει διότι 00:02:47.301 --> 00:02:51.642 Ο τρόπος που εμφανίζεται στους άλλους και ειδικότερα ο τρόπος που εμφανίζεται στους άντρες 00:02:51.642 --> 00:02:55.901 είναι ζωτικής σημασίας, καθότι 00:02:56.843 --> 00:03:17.082 [music] 00:03:17.082 --> 00:03:19.367 A woman in the culture of privileged Europeans, 00:03:19.367 --> 00:03:22.872 is first and foremost a sight to be looked at. 00:03:22.872 --> 00:03:28.429 What kind of sight is revealed in the average European oil painting 00:03:28.429 --> 00:03:30.488 There were portraits of women as there were portraits of men. 00:03:30.488 --> 00:03:33.452 but in one category of painting, women were the principle 00:03:33.452 --> 00:03:38.723 ever occuring subject, that category was the nude. 00:03:38.723 --> 00:03:43.197 In the nudes of European painting, we can discover some of the criteria 00:03:43.197 --> 00:03:46.153 and conventions by which women were judged. 00:03:46.153 --> 00:03:49.914 We can see how women were seen. 00:03:49.914 --> 00:03:54.256 What then is a nude? 00:03:57.607 --> 00:04:01.205 In his book on the nude, Kenneth Clark says that being 00:04:01.205 --> 00:04:05.130 naked is simply being without clothes 00:04:05.130 --> 00:04:10.347 the nude, according to him, is a form of art 00:04:10.632 --> 00:04:13.140 I would put it differently. 00:04:13.140 --> 00:04:15.966 To be naked is to be oneself. 00:04:15.966 --> 00:04:19.186 To be nude is to be seen naked by others and 00:04:19.186 --> 00:04:22.722 yet not recognized as oneself. A nude 00:04:22.722 --> 00:04:28.194 has to be seen as an object in order to be nude. 00:04:29.309 --> 00:04:33.078 In the European oil painting, nakedness is not taken for granted 00:04:33.078 --> 00:04:37.064 as in archaic art. Nakedness is a sight for those who are dressed. 00:04:38.984 --> 00:04:43.093 That is why Manners's painting which really marks the end of a period I am considering is so 00:04:43.093 --> 00:04:48.273 profound a comment on all the works that preceded it. 00:04:48.273 --> 00:04:54.063 the story begins with the story of Adam and Eve as told in Genesis. 00:04:54.063 --> 00:04:58.248 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and it was a delight for the eyes, 00:04:58.248 --> 00:05:00.949 and that the tree was desired to make one wise 00:05:00.949 --> 00:05:03.658 she took of the fruit thereof and did eat 00:05:03.658 --> 00:05:07.195 and she gave also to her husband with her, and he did eat. 00:05:07.195 --> 00:05:09.656 and the eyes of them both were opened, and they 00:05:09.656 --> 00:05:11.528 knew that they were naked 00:05:11.528 --> 00:05:14.067 and the Lord God called out to the man and said 00:05:14.067 --> 00:05:17.542 Where art thou? and he said 00:05:17.542 --> 00:05:19.662 I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid 00:05:19.662 --> 00:05:23.586 and I hid myself 00:05:23.586 --> 00:05:25.422 unto the woman God said, "I will greatly 00:05:25.422 --> 00:05:31.273 multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow, thou shall bring forth children, 00:05:31.273 --> 00:05:37.442 and they desire will be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." 00:05:38.958 --> 00:05:42.395 Two things are striking about this story. 00:05:42.395 --> 00:05:45.328 They become aware of being naked because, as a result of 00:05:45.328 --> 00:05:49.700 eating the apple, each sees the other differently 00:05:49.700 --> 00:05:54.561 nakedness is created in the mind of the beholder. 00:05:54.561 --> 00:05:58.447 The second striking fact is that the woman 00:05:58.447 --> 00:06:02.434 is blamed and is punished by being made subservient to the man 00:06:02.434 --> 00:06:07.904 In relationship to the woman, the man becomes the agent of God. 00:06:08.586 --> 00:06:13.044 In medieval art, the story is often illustrated scene following scene 00:06:13.044 --> 00:06:16.427 as in a strip cartoon. 00:06:16.427 --> 00:06:20.094 During the Renaissance, the narrative sequence disappears, and the single moment 00:06:20.094 --> 00:06:25.853 which is nearly always depicted, is the moment of shame. 00:06:25.853 --> 00:06:30.388 The couple wear fig leaves or make a modest gesture with their hands 00:06:30.388 --> 00:06:35.559 but now, their shame is not so much in relationship to one another as is to the spectator. 00:06:35.559 --> 00:06:39.940 It is the spectator looking which shames them. 00:06:39.940 --> 00:06:42.933 Later, as painting became more secular, 00:06:42.933 --> 00:06:47.075 many other subjects offer the opportunity for painting nudes. 00:06:47.075 --> 00:06:49.172 But always in the European tradition, the nude implies an awareness of being seen 00:06:49.172 --> 00:06:56.053 by the spectator. They are not 00:06:56.053 --> 00:06:59.784 naked as they are, they are naked as you see them. 00:07:09.254 --> 00:07:10.670 Often, as with the favorite subject of Suzanna and the elders, 00:07:12.848 --> 00:07:16.037 this is the actual theme of the picture. 00:07:16.037 --> 00:07:22.112 We join the elders to spy on her. 00:07:22.112 --> 00:07:26.957 She looks back at us looking at her. 00:07:26.957 --> 00:07:28.762 Sometimes the woman, Suzanna, looks at herself 00:07:28.762 --> 00:07:34.224 in the mirror, picturing herself as men see her. 00:07:34.224 --> 00:07:37.926 She sees herself first and foremost as a sight 00:07:37.926 --> 00:07:40.858 which means as a sight for men. 00:07:40.858 --> 00:07:44.805 Thus the mirror is a symbol of the vanity of women 00:07:44.805 --> 00:07:48.250 yet the male hypocrisy in this is blatant. 00:07:48.250 --> 00:07:51.755 You paint a naked women because you enjoy looking at her 00:07:51.755 --> 00:07:56.453 you put a mirror in her hand, and you call the painting vanity 00:07:56.453 --> 00:07:59.611 thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you have 00:07:59.611 --> 00:08:02.916 depictured for your own pleasure 00:08:02.916 --> 00:08:05.487 And thus, incidentally, repeating the biblical incident by 00:08:05.487 --> 00:08:08.674 blaming the woman 00:08:08.674 --> 00:08:12.335 The Judgement of Paris is another famous mythological subject with the same 00:08:12.335 --> 00:08:17.575 in written idea of looking at naked women and judging them. 00:08:17.575 --> 00:08:22.072 Paris awards the apple to the woman he finds most beautiful. 00:08:22.072 --> 00:08:26.545 Beauty in this context is bound to become competitive. 00:08:26.545 --> 00:08:30.081 The judgement of Paris is transformed into a beauty contest. 00:08:32.004 --> 00:08:34.065 Aesthetics when applied to women are not 00:08:34.215 --> 00:08:37.087 as disinterested as the word beauty 00:08:37.606 --> 00:08:40.825 might suggest 00:08:41.242 --> 00:08:44.269 I don't want to deny the crucial part that seeing 00:08:44.269 --> 00:08:48.410 plays in sexuality, but there's a great difference in being seen 00:08:48.410 --> 00:08:51.475 as oneself naked or being seen by another in that way 00:08:51.475 --> 00:08:53.882 and a body being put on display 00:08:54.300 --> 00:08:58.612 To be naked, is to be without disguise. 00:08:58.612 --> 00:09:02.374 To be on display, is to have the surface of one's own skin, 00:09:02.374 --> 00:09:04.470 the hairs of one's own body 00:09:04.470 --> 00:09:06.560 turned into a disguise. 00:09:06.560 --> 00:09:10.515 A disguise which cannot be discarded. 00:09:10.515 --> 00:09:12.922 Amongst the tens of thousands of European oil paintings 00:09:12.922 --> 00:09:17.427 of nudes, there are perhaps 20 or 30 exceptions, paintings in which the 00:09:17.427 --> 00:09:21.476 artist has seen the woman revealed as herself. 00:09:22.922 --> 00:09:25.274 this Rubens 00:09:26.335 --> 00:09:29.585 this Rembrant 00:09:31.186 --> 00:09:35.336 this George De La Tour 00:09:35.336 --> 00:09:37.905 These paintings are as personal as love poems 00:09:37.905 --> 00:09:41.836 and their character is quite distinctive 00:09:41.836 --> 00:09:44.430 Most nudes oil paintings have been lined up 00:09:44.430 --> 00:09:46.821 by their painters for the pleasure of the 00:09:46.821 --> 00:09:49.546 male spectator only 00:09:49.546 --> 00:09:51.094 who will assess and judge them 00:09:51.094 --> 00:09:53.662 as sights 00:09:53.662 --> 00:09:56.435 Their nudity is another form of dress 00:09:56.435 --> 00:09:59.770 They are condemned to never being naked 00:09:59.770 --> 00:10:02.114 with their clothes off, they are as formal 00:10:02.114 --> 00:10:06.048 as with their clothes on 00:10:06.048 --> 00:10:10.164 Those who are not judged beautiful, are not beautiful. 00:10:10.164 --> 00:10:13.995 Those who are, are given the prize. 00:10:13.995 --> 00:10:16.077 The prize is to be owned. 00:10:16.077 --> 00:10:19.072 That is to say, to be available. 00:10:19.398 --> 00:10:21.774 Charles II commissioned this secret painting 00:10:21.774 --> 00:10:24.962 from Lale. It's like hundreds of others, 00:10:24.962 --> 00:10:27.239 it might be Venus and Cupid, but 00:10:27.239 --> 00:10:31.061 in fact, it was a portrait of one of his mistresses Nell Gwen. 00:10:31.061 --> 00:10:33.933 He chose her passively looking at the 00:10:33.933 --> 00:10:37.725 spectator staring at her naked. 00:10:37.725 --> 00:10:41.742 Her nakedness is not an expression of her own feelings 00:10:41.742 --> 00:10:46.510 it is only a sign of her submission to his demand 00:10:46.510 --> 00:10:49.939 The painting, when he shows it to others, 00:10:49.939 --> 00:10:54.226 demonstrates this submission. His guests envy him. 00:10:54.226 --> 00:10:58.692 By contrast, in another tradition, nakedness is a celebration of 00:10:58.692 --> 00:11:02.522 active sexual love as between two people, 00:11:02.522 --> 00:11:05.572 the woman as active as the man 00:11:05.572 --> 00:11:10.487 the actions of each absorb the other. 00:11:10.487 --> 00:11:13.453 In oil painting, the second person or the second 00:11:13.453 --> 00:11:18.212 person who matters it the person looking at the painting. 00:11:18.212 --> 00:11:22.870 Compare these two women. 00:11:22.870 --> 00:11:26.176 One the model for what is considered a masterpiece by Eng 00:11:26.176 --> 00:11:30.587 and the other an ill paid model for a photograph in a girly magazine 00:11:30.587 --> 00:11:35.472 Or these two 00:11:35.472 --> 00:11:37.050 just the expresssion, the look, 00:11:37.050 --> 00:11:40.974 what do you see? 00:11:40.974 --> 00:11:42.684 It seems to me that in each pair, the expression 00:11:42.684 --> 00:11:45.541 is remarkably similar, and it is an 00:11:45.541 --> 00:11:48.249 expression of responding with remarkable charm 00:11:48.249 --> 00:11:51.399 to the man who she knows is looking at her 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:54.487 although she doesn't know him 00:11:54.487 --> 00:11:56.027 It is true that sometimes a painting includes 00:11:56.027 --> 00:11:59.534 a male lover, but the woman's attention is very rarely 00:11:59.534 --> 00:12:03.140 directed towards him. She looks away from him 00:12:03.140 --> 00:12:06.910 or she looks out of the picture towards he who 00:12:06.910 --> 00:12:11.862 considers himself her true lover, the spectator-owner 00:12:11.862 --> 00:12:16.326 this painting was sent as a present from the Grand Duke of Florence to the King of France 00:12:16.326 --> 00:12:18.843 The boy kneeling on the cushion and kissing 00:12:18.843 --> 00:12:20.958 is Cupid the woman is Venus 00:12:20.958 --> 00:12:22.955 But the way her body is arranged has nothing to do with 00:12:22.955 --> 00:12:27.683 that kissing. Her body is arranged the way it is to display it 00:12:27.683 --> 00:12:30.734 to the man looking at the picture 00:12:30.734 --> 00:12:34.399 the picture is made to appeal to his sexuality 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:37.330 it has nothing to do with her sexuality 00:12:37.330 --> 00:12:41.475 The convention of not painting the hair on a woman's body helps towards the same end. 00:12:41.475 --> 00:12:44.174 Hair is associated with sexual power, with passion. 00:12:44.174 --> 00:12:46.554 The woman's sexual passion, needs to be 00:12:46.554 --> 00:12:49.613 minimized, so that the spectator feels 00:12:49.613 --> 00:12:52.887 that he has the monopoly of such passion. 00:12:52.887 --> 00:12:54.819 There were paintings which depicted 00:12:54.819 --> 00:12:56.394 male lovers. These did exist. 00:12:56.394 --> 00:12:59.484 But they were mostly private, semi-pornographic 00:12:59.484 --> 00:13:02.566 pictures. In most paintings, which were painted to be seen 00:13:02.566 --> 00:13:06.168 rather than hidden, the only rival to the male 00:13:06.168 --> 00:13:08.899 spectator is a cupid. 00:13:08.899 --> 00:13:11.536 Now, how extraordinary it is that the 00:13:11.536 --> 00:13:14.786 pictorial symbol of passion is a small boy. 00:13:14.786 --> 00:13:19.928 For a similar reason, women in the European art of the oil painting are seldom seen dancing. 00:13:19.928 --> 00:13:25.520 They have to be shown languid, exhibiting a minimum of energy. 00:13:25.520 --> 00:13:29.449 They are there to feed an appetite, not to have any of their own. 00:13:32.509 --> 00:13:34.823 The appetite was theoretically gargantuan. 00:13:38.172 --> 00:13:41.202 The absurdity of this male flattery, although it was not seen as absurd then 00:13:43.502 --> 00:13:47.560 reached its peak in the public academic art of the 19th C 00:13:48.506 --> 00:13:50.822 prime ministers discussed under paintings like this 00:13:50.822 --> 00:13:57.419 when one of him felt he had been outwitted, he looked up for consolation 00:13:57.419 --> 00:13:59.314 the nude in European oil painting 00:13:59.314 --> 00:14:02.883 is usually presented as an ideal subject 00:14:02.883 --> 00:14:05.868 it is said to be an expression of the European humanist spirit 00:14:05.868 --> 00:14:10.245 I don't want to reject entirely the truth of this, 00:14:10.245 --> 00:14:11.691 but I have tried to add to it 00:14:11.691 --> 00:14:14.717 starting off from a different viewpoint. 00:14:14.717 --> 00:14:17.480 Duer who believed in the ideal nude 00:14:18.557 --> 00:14:21.616 thought that this ideal could be constructed 00:14:21.616 --> 00:14:24.092 by taking the shoulders from one body 00:14:24.092 --> 00:14:26.112 the hands of another, the breasts of another, 00:14:26.112 --> 00:14:28.588 and so on 00:14:28.588 --> 00:14:30.936 Was this humanist idealism? 00:14:30.936 --> 00:14:33.252 Or was it the result of the indifference 00:14:33.252 --> 00:14:36.957 to who any one person really was? 00:14:38.038 --> 00:14:39.420 Do these paintings celebrate 00:14:39.420 --> 00:14:40.705 as we're normally taught 00:14:40.705 --> 00:14:42.766 the women within them? 00:14:42.766 --> 00:14:45.753 or the male voyeur? 00:14:45.753 --> 00:14:49.875 Is there sexuality within the frame? 00:14:49.875 --> 00:14:52.477 or in front of it? 00:14:52.477 --> 00:14:56.527 I showed the program, as you have seen it, up to now, to five women. 00:14:56.527 --> 00:14:59.451 It began to seem absurd that the only images 00:14:59.451 --> 00:15:01.446 that you are seeing are of women 00:15:01.446 --> 00:15:03.146 silent, mute 00:15:03.146 --> 00:15:05.143 So, I showed it to them and asked them to comment. 00:15:05.143 --> 00:15:06.940 To comment not so much on the program 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:09.320 but rather on the questions raised by it 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.178 Above all, on the question of how men see women 00:15:12.178 --> 00:15:13.720 or how they have seen them in the past. 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.364 And how this influences the way women see 00:15:16.364 --> 00:15:18.353 themselves today. 00:15:18.353 --> 00:15:19.223 We have an image, of 00:15:19.223 --> 00:15:20.923 Of course, we all have an image of ourselves 00:15:20.923 --> 00:15:24.662 and it is a visual image, but I wonder how 00:15:24.662 --> 00:15:28.902 much this sort of classical European painting 00:15:28.902 --> 00:15:30.538 has shaped that image. 00:15:30.538 --> 00:15:33.146 In my own case, I find it quite impossible when I 00:15:33.146 --> 00:15:36.777 look at the paintings you show, in your film, I can't 00:15:36.777 --> 00:15:39.156 take them seriously, I cannot identify with them 00:15:39.156 --> 00:15:41.503 because they are so immensely exaggerated. 00:15:41.503 --> 00:15:44.331 Always, you know, they fasten onto some secondary 00:15:44.331 --> 00:15:48.318 sexual characteristic, these enormous breasts, 00:15:48.318 --> 00:15:53.428 these beasting bottoms, those huge things like that 00:15:53.428 --> 00:15:56.062 and they just aren't real. Whereas with 00:15:56.062 --> 00:15:58.449 photographs, you can feel that as potentially, possibly 00:16:00.377 --> 00:16:11.117 although it probably isn't. Many of these paintings you show are idealized. 00:16:11.117 --> 00:16:15.167 Um, and therefore, they are to me very unreal. 00:16:15.167 --> 00:16:20.373 in connection with any deep down image that I might have of myself 00:16:20.373 --> 00:16:21.818 or in connection with any deep down 00:16:21.818 --> 00:16:23.911 pleasure I might have 00:16:23.911 --> 00:16:26.642 when looking at another female body 00:16:26.642 --> 00:16:29.980 they don't give me that pleasure at all 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:33.134 I can admire then as paintings 00:16:34.076 --> 00:16:36.614 but they don't mean human beings to me 00:16:36.614 --> 00:16:38.283 the image that I compare myself to 00:16:38.283 --> 00:16:40.154 is the photograph because it is with photographs 00:16:40.154 --> 00:16:42.692 that I have been encouraged to think of myself 00:16:42.692 --> 00:16:45.040 in this way, it is essentially advertising to me 00:16:45.040 --> 00:16:49.216 that has made me think of myself in this way 00:16:49.216 --> 00:16:50.534 and consequently, I find it extremely interesting to go 00:16:50.534 --> 00:16:53.171 back and think of nudes in this way because 00:16:53.171 --> 00:16:55.326 I have never done so, but having seen the film 00:16:55.326 --> 00:16:57.866 I have no doubt that the same thing applies. 00:16:57.866 --> 00:17:01.882 And do you find the nudes in painting unreal 00:17:01.882 --> 00:17:04.846 in the same way? yes. 00:17:04.846 --> 00:17:08.439 Well, you can't get any information from it, 00:17:08.439 --> 00:17:12.688 can you ? there's no guide to how you might-- 00:17:12.688 --> 00:17:13.454 what information is lacking? 00:17:13.454 --> 00:17:19.085 well, activity. Dynamism. it is how 00:17:19.085 --> 00:17:20.593 someone sees you and that's all, 00:17:20.593 --> 00:17:23.166 it is laid upon you. 00:17:23.166 --> 00:17:25.259 I'm glad you showed the men in picture 00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:28.245 because I always find this extremely shocking 00:17:28.245 --> 00:17:32.398 the men are dressed and the women are naked 00:17:32.398 --> 00:17:35.097 and this seems to sum up the entire situation 00:17:35.097 --> 00:17:39.529 because these women as well being humiliated 00:17:39.529 --> 00:17:40.752 and I think this is part of the whole 00:17:40.752 --> 00:17:42.356 scheme of things 00:17:42.356 --> 00:17:44.129 as most people have had, at some station 00:17:44.129 --> 00:17:49.209 in life, nightmares about running through the streets with nothing on 00:17:50.229 --> 00:17:51.905 while everyone else is dressed. And this seems 00:17:51.905 --> 00:17:52.991 to me to be one element in the picture. 00:17:52.991 --> 00:17:55.338 One very interesting thing you said in the film was 00:17:55.338 --> 00:18:01.026 about how nudity was really a kind of disguise, 00:18:01.026 --> 00:18:03.827 it wasn't the real person themselves free. 00:18:03.827 --> 00:18:07.135 But it was just another garment they were wearing 00:18:07.135 --> 00:18:09.035 and worse than a garment, in a sense, because 00:18:09.035 --> 00:18:11.023 it was something that you can't take off. 00:18:11.023 --> 00:18:13.211 This comes, I think, from 00:18:13.211 --> 00:18:16.878 nudity being combined with a pose. And that's 00:18:16.878 --> 00:18:18.610 inevitable if you're going to have a painting 00:18:18.610 --> 00:18:25.718 of a model. Um, in a way, I think that 00:18:25.718 --> 00:18:28.617 we're always dressing. We're always dressing up 00:18:28.617 --> 00:18:31.350 for a part. Always putting on a uniform of one kind of another 00:18:31.350 --> 00:18:33.280 and I think women do this more than men 00:18:34.048 --> 00:18:38.288 men have only been doing it fairly recently. 00:18:38.288 --> 00:18:41.668 Women are always dressing to show the kind of 00:18:41.668 --> 00:18:45.172 character that they want to present: the mother, the working 00:18:45.172 --> 00:18:48.775 woman, the pretty young chick. And nudity 00:18:48.775 --> 00:18:53.724 is a uniform, in a way, for I'm ready 00:18:53.724 --> 00:18:57.356 for sexual pleasure. So, it doesn't. You can't 00:18:59.423 --> 00:19:04.925 identify being nude with being free. 00:19:04.925 --> 00:19:06.245 Only just recently read that book 00:19:06.245 --> 00:19:10.388 which describes a way in which a woman 00:19:10.388 --> 00:19:14.022 is reduced to the sexual pleasure she can 00:19:14.022 --> 00:19:17.560 to a complete object provide to a man. And what struck me in all that book 00:19:18.671 --> 00:19:21.626 that was the most impressive image is the fact that she was told 00:19:21.626 --> 00:19:24.941 that she was never to touch her own breasts to 00:19:24.941 --> 00:19:29.221 close her own mouth or to put her legs 00:19:29.221 --> 00:19:32.304 together. So, the whole point about her stance 00:19:32.304 --> 00:19:33.430 all the time is that she was available 00:19:33.430 --> 00:19:38.254 and this sense of being available of waiting 00:19:38.254 --> 00:19:41.824 for other people is the very antithesis of action 00:19:41.824 --> 00:19:46.097 and you know just like the Brook Street 00:19:46.097 --> 00:19:47.807 Bureau advertisement, Tony hasn't run. He's 00:19:47.807 --> 00:19:49.971 three minutes late in ringing. You feel this whole 00:19:49.971 --> 00:19:53.030 situation, the number of women you talk to who 00:19:53.030 --> 00:19:57.343 say I stay in so many night a week, waiting for someone to ring 00:19:57.343 --> 00:19:59.958 the concept of availability implies 00:19:59.958 --> 00:20:02.941 passivity because if you're simply waiting for someone else to act 00:20:04.143 --> 00:20:06.501 then you can't help yourself. 00:20:06.546 --> 00:20:09.254 yes, it's like you will awake when a man touches 00:20:09.663 --> 00:20:14.710 you when a man kisses you. Whether its an excuse, 00:20:14.710 --> 00:20:17.954 to get yourself going, I think women are shy 00:20:21.905 --> 00:20:25.339 they are waiting too long. 00:20:25.603 --> 00:20:26.889 yes, yes. 00:20:27.112 --> 00:20:29.131 Could I say something now about narcissism? 00:20:29.131 --> 00:20:32.031 I think that both men and women are narcissistic 00:20:32.031 --> 00:20:35.178 but in different senses, and I think 00:20:35.178 --> 00:20:38.811 that one in sometimes I have the impression 00:20:38.811 --> 00:20:41.702 that men and women are tremendously 00:20:41.702 --> 00:20:44.252 narcissistic and are cut off from each other 00:20:44.252 --> 00:20:46.558 from their images of themselves. But 00:20:46.558 --> 00:20:49.840 whereas a woman's image of herself is derived 00:20:50.526 --> 00:20:53.553 directly from other people, the mirror you're talking about 00:20:53.553 --> 00:20:56.985 a man's image of himself is derived from 00:20:56.985 --> 00:21:00.534 the world that is its the world that gives him back 00:21:00.534 --> 00:21:08.757 his image because he acts in it. and the women are drawn to him as a source, as central activity, 00:21:08.757 --> 00:21:11.072 and as a source of worth 00:21:11.924 --> 00:21:13.754 since he is in the world, the fact 00:21:13.754 --> 00:21:17.650 that he values her is important 00:21:17.650 --> 00:21:21.212 and so because their centers of narcissism are different, 00:21:21.212 --> 00:21:23.943 and the woman's is essentially only 00:21:23.943 --> 00:21:27.322 related to the other person 00:21:27.322 --> 00:21:28.648 she is in a much more passive position than he is 00:21:28.648 --> 00:21:30.052 in relation to it 00:21:30.052 --> 00:21:32.915 yes 00:21:32.915 --> 00:21:35.188 do you see narcissism as essentially a negative 00:21:36.932 --> 00:21:40.530 or positive phenomenon? 00:21:40.530 --> 00:21:44.259 well, i think that is very difficult to answer 00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:48.118 but in the sense that it is related to 00:21:48.118 --> 00:21:50.657 an identity, um, it is a positive phenomenon 00:21:50.657 --> 00:21:53.521 and it seems to me that what women envy in men in that 00:21:53.521 --> 00:21:54.993 they have a sense of their 00:21:54.993 --> 00:21:56.702 own identity 00:21:56.702 --> 00:21:58.023 that there is something in them 00:21:58.023 --> 00:22:00.136 that is important to them other than 00:22:00.136 --> 00:22:02.267 simply what other people think of them 00:22:02.267 --> 00:22:03.833 and I think that thing 00:22:03.833 --> 00:22:07.594 is product of their interaction in the world 00:22:07.594 --> 00:22:12.099 and it is almost as if through this interaction 00:22:12.099 --> 00:22:15.701 they build up a store of worth 00:22:15.701 --> 00:22:17.625 of their sense of themselves 00:22:17.625 --> 00:22:20.643 which is a constant 00:22:20.643 --> 00:22:22.417 it cannot be lost 00:22:22.417 --> 00:22:24.055 and because a woman doesn't go out 00:22:24.055 --> 00:22:25.245 and do that 00:22:25.245 --> 00:22:26.660 she doesn't create a store 00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:30.136 she waits for the present interaction with a man 00:22:30.136 --> 00:22:32.512 that can go, that can end at any moment 00:22:38.120 --> 00:22:41.568 there is something here that really 00:22:43.501 --> 00:22:45.581 I would like to push around a little bit 00:22:45.721 --> 00:22:48.736 because narcissism is a very pronounced 00:22:48.736 --> 00:22:52.976 way of stating a relationship with the world 00:22:52.976 --> 00:22:55.834 whether it is a man or a woman 00:22:55.834 --> 00:22:59.851 but this other question which is contained 00:22:59.851 --> 00:23:05.930 within it, but doesn't go as far as it as an idea 00:23:05.930 --> 00:23:10.563 is this sort of self delight of a person 00:23:10.563 --> 00:23:11.390 whether or it is a man or woman 00:23:12.884 --> 00:23:14.752 in life, in what they're doing 00:23:14.752 --> 00:23:19.800 in relationships with a man or woman 00:23:21.703 --> 00:23:27.271 and it is a thing that matters tremendously 00:23:27.271 --> 00:23:30.259 and its not only a thing that is an inner thing 00:23:30.259 --> 00:23:32.031 by which you life 00:23:32.031 --> 00:23:34.177 but it is a very outer thing 00:23:34.177 --> 00:23:38.875 by which you gain relationships with 00:23:38.875 --> 00:23:40.192 your own context in the world 00:23:40.581 --> 00:23:43.831 that you can't gain any other way 00:23:43.831 --> 00:23:47.264 its when you've somehow been made 00:23:47.264 --> 00:23:49.868 so unconscious of yourself that 00:23:49.868 --> 00:23:53.086 you easily, naturally,sort of 00:23:53.086 --> 00:23:58.548 compulsively go out to whatever is around you 00:23:58.548 --> 00:24:01.639 now, when you're a child that tends 00:24:01.639 --> 00:24:05.657 with people to be other things 00:24:05.657 --> 00:24:06.943 doesn't it? 00:24:06.943 --> 00:24:11.351 mountains, streams, whereever you go 00:24:11.351 --> 00:24:17.493 and then only gradually as you go on 00:24:17.493 --> 00:24:25.877 you make this kind of absolutely necessary contact with people 00:24:25.877 --> 00:24:30.926 but I do think that the sort of essense 00:24:30.926 --> 00:24:35.749 of self delight as a kind of possible thing 00:24:35.749 --> 00:24:38.225 in the modern world and something 00:24:38.225 --> 00:24:41.434 that fewer women have than men and want and must have 00:24:42.662 --> 00:24:46.747 is the power, the compulsion, not the power 00:24:46.747 --> 00:24:51.853 the compulsion to make contact with the world 00:24:51.853 --> 00:24:53.409 as you are living in it 00:24:53.409 --> 00:24:54.489 and when I'm saying that I don't 00:24:54.489 --> 00:24:57.580 simply mean the people next door 00:24:57.580 --> 00:25:00.344 I mean what is going on 00:25:00.344 --> 00:25:02.279 yes 00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:04.168 I am not so sure about the delight 00:25:04.168 --> 00:25:06.264 I think it is a very double edged thing 00:25:06.264 --> 00:25:07.798 I know 00:25:07.798 --> 00:25:09.921 as I suppose I've always known 00:25:09.921 --> 00:25:11.397 that I became aware of it in this film 00:25:11.397 --> 00:25:13.968 I've never consciously looked at myself in 00:25:13.968 --> 00:25:16.741 the mirror and seen myself as I am 00:25:16.741 --> 00:25:18.505 I always see the image that I want 00:25:18.505 --> 00:25:20.206 I know that I want to 00:25:20.206 --> 00:25:21.626 and my children notice it that if I make up 00:25:21.626 --> 00:25:23.365 my face I put on a certain expression 00:25:23.365 --> 00:25:27.152 if I , from adolescence on, if I have seen myself 00:25:27.152 --> 00:25:28.891 naked in the mirror, I have not thought of 00:25:28.891 --> 00:25:31.385 myself naked, I have thought of myself as a nude 00:25:31.385 --> 00:25:34.642 and I think this comes from having been trolled 00:25:34.642 --> 00:25:37.084 around all the major art galleries 00:25:37.084 --> 00:25:40.687 in essence, this is culture, this is beauty 00:25:40.687 --> 00:25:42.100 with a capital B 00:25:42.100 --> 00:25:44.127 and, of course, up to a point from advertising too 00:25:44.127 --> 00:25:46.437 but much more from the painting 00:25:46.437 --> 00:25:51.286 um, that you think the female body is beautiful 00:25:51.286 --> 00:25:53.402 I am a beautiful object, if not, I have to do 00:25:53.402 --> 00:25:55.176 something about it 00:25:55.176 --> 00:25:57.164 um, and therefore, the painful part 00:25:57.164 --> 00:26:00.351 of a narcissistic society is the feeling of inadequacy 00:26:00.351 --> 00:26:03.337 this business of always posing in a mirror 00:26:03.337 --> 00:26:08.651 I think one does absolutely automatically 00:26:08.651 --> 00:26:11.379 and if you actually catch yourself 00:26:11.379 --> 00:26:15.108 in a mirror by chance that is not deliberately 00:26:15.108 --> 00:26:18.158 because you're getting dressed or having a bath 00:26:18.158 --> 00:26:21.090 there's one in the street, or you catch yourself 00:26:21.090 --> 00:26:23.174 in a shop window, it's a tremendous shock 00:26:23.174 --> 00:26:25.850 because you suddenly see yourself as you are 00:26:25.850 --> 00:26:27.902 which is windblown, untidy, badly dressed 00:26:27.902 --> 00:26:30.443 tired, and so on 00:26:30.443 --> 00:26:31.859 you don't see the person 00:26:31.859 --> 00:26:34.110 at all, and I think this is what happens to women 00:26:34.110 --> 00:26:35.874 they are always trying to measure 00:26:35.874 --> 00:26:39.642 up to this erotic image that is projected. 00:26:39.642 --> 00:26:42.566 There are some paintings 00:26:42.566 --> 00:26:45.423 and I'm thinking at this moment of one painting 00:26:45.423 --> 00:26:47.293 where there is a woman 00:26:47.293 --> 00:26:48.803 who is wearing a garment 00:26:48.803 --> 00:26:52.077 she is not nude 00:26:52.142 --> 00:26:54.240 but it is a garment so loose, so comfortable 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.096 so easy, and its my idea, very much 00:26:57.096 --> 00:27:02.757 of what a picture of a woman might be like 00:27:02.757 --> 00:27:06.582 I think its from a period before yours, 00:27:06.582 --> 00:27:08.898 it's so long ago by Lorenzetti 00:27:08.898 --> 00:27:12.404 it's a fresco, very very old 00:27:12.404 --> 00:27:14.743 and it is a picture of a woman 00:27:14.743 --> 00:27:16.646 who is suppossed to represent peace 00:27:16.646 --> 00:27:18.318 it's quite extraordinary 00:27:18.318 --> 00:27:20.280 she could be one of the liberated 00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:22.690 or trying to be liberated young women 00:27:22.690 --> 00:27:25.708 of today. she is at ease, she is relaxed 00:27:25.708 --> 00:27:29.123 she is not playing the part at all 00:27:29.123 --> 00:27:31.920 she is able to combine 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:34.774 pleasure with thought 00:27:34.774 --> 00:27:36.898 and with dreaming 00:27:36.898 --> 00:27:38.695 and she is, she might spring into action 00:27:38.695 --> 00:27:40.011 at any moment 00:27:40.011 --> 00:27:41.969 and for me 00:27:41.969 --> 00:27:43.937 she has much, much more to do 00:27:43.937 --> 00:27:49.107 with nakedness, with oneself, with the 00:27:49.107 --> 00:27:53.644 truth of oneself than any other nudes I have seen 00:27:54.122 --> 00:27:58.340 [music]