0:00:03.787,0:00:09.280
Οι άντρες ονειρεύονται τις γυναίκες[br]Οι γυναίκες ονειρεύονται τον εαυτό τους να τις ονειρεύονται

0:00:09.280,0:00:17.545
Οι άντρες κοιτούν τις γυναίκες[br]Οι γυναίκες βλέπουν τον εαυτό τους να τον κοιτούν

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Οι γυναίκες διαρκώς συναντούν βλέματα που λειτουργούν σαν καθρέφτες

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υπενθυμίζοντας τους την εμφάνισή τους ή πώς αυτή θα έπρεπε να είναι.

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Πίσω από κάθε ματιά υπάρχει μια κρίση.

0:00:59.937,0:01:06.947
Κάποιες φορές η ματιά μου συναντούν είναι η δική τους, αντανακλούμενη από έναν πραγματικό καθρέφτη.

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Μια γυναίκα πάντα συνοδεύεται, εκτός όταν

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είναι τελείως μόνη της. Και μπορεί ακόμα και τότε, από

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την εικόνα του ίδιου της του εαυτού. Καθώς περπατάει,

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διασχίζοντας ένα δωμάτιο, ή κλαίγοντας για τον θάνατο του πατέρα της

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δεν μπορεί να αποφύγει να συλλαμβάνει τον εαυτό της, να περπατάει ή να κλαίει

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από την παιδική ηλικία, διδάσκεται και πείθεται να επιθεωρεί τον εαυτό της συνεχώς

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Πρέπει να επιθεωρεί όλα όσα είναι και όλα όσα κάνει διότι

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Ο τρόπος που εμφανίζεται στους άλλους και ειδικότερα ο τρόπος που εμφανίζεται στους άντρες

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είναι ζωτικής σημασίας, καθότι

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[music]

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A woman in the culture of privileged Europeans,

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is first and foremost a sight to be looked at.

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What kind of sight is revealed in the average European oil painting

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There were portraits of women as there were portraits of men.

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but in one category of painting, women were the principle

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ever occuring subject, that category was the nude.

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In the nudes of European painting, we can discover some of the criteria

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and conventions by which women were judged.

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We can see how women were seen.

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What then is a nude?

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In his book on the nude, Kenneth Clark says that being

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naked is simply being without clothes

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the nude, according to him, is a form of art

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I would put it differently.

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To be naked is to be oneself.

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To be nude is to be seen naked by others and

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yet not recognized as oneself. A nude

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has to be seen as an object in order to be nude.

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In the European oil painting, nakedness is not taken for granted

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as in archaic art. Nakedness is a sight for those who are dressed.

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That is why Manners's painting which really marks the end of a period I am considering is so

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profound a comment on all the works that preceded it.

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the story begins with the story of Adam and Eve as told in Genesis.

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And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and it was a delight for the eyes,

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and that the tree was desired to make one wise

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she took of the fruit thereof and did eat

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and she gave also to her husband with her, and he did eat.

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and the eyes of them both were opened, and they

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knew that they were naked

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and the Lord God called out to the man and said

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Where art thou? and he said

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I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid

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and I hid myself

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unto the woman God said, "I will greatly

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multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow, thou shall bring forth children,

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and they desire will be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

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Two things are striking about this story.

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They become aware of being naked because, as a result of

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eating the apple, each sees the other differently

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nakedness is created in the mind of the beholder.

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The second striking fact is that the woman

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is blamed and is punished by being made subservient to the man

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In relationship to the woman, the man becomes the agent of God.

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In medieval art, the story is often illustrated scene following scene

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as in a strip cartoon.

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During the Renaissance, the narrative sequence disappears, and the single moment

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which is nearly always depicted, is the moment of shame.

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The couple wear fig leaves or make a modest gesture with their hands

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but now, their shame is not so much in relationship to one another as is to the spectator.

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It is the spectator looking which shames them.

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Later, as painting became more secular,

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many other subjects offer the opportunity for painting nudes.

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But always in the European tradition, the nude implies an awareness of being seen

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by the spectator. They are not

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naked as they are, they are naked as you see them.

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Often, as with the favorite subject of Suzanna and the elders,

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this is the actual theme of the picture.

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We join the elders to spy on her.

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She looks back at us looking at her.

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Sometimes the woman, Suzanna, looks at herself

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in the mirror, picturing herself as men see her.

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She sees herself first and foremost as a sight

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which means as a sight for men.

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Thus the mirror is a symbol of the vanity of women

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yet the male hypocrisy in this is blatant.

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You paint a naked women because you enjoy looking at her

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you put a mirror in her hand, and you call the painting vanity

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thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you have

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depictured for your own pleasure

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And thus, incidentally, repeating the biblical incident by

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blaming the woman

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The Judgement of Paris is another famous mythological subject with the same

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in written idea of looking at naked women and judging them.

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Paris awards the apple to the woman he finds most beautiful.

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Beauty in this context is bound to become competitive.

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The judgement of Paris is transformed into a beauty contest.

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Aesthetics when applied to women are not

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as disinterested as the word beauty

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might suggest

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I don't want to deny the crucial part that seeing

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plays in sexuality, but there's a great difference in being seen

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as oneself naked or being seen by another in that way

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and a body being put on display

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To be naked, is to be without disguise.

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To be on display, is to have the surface of one's own skin,

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the hairs of one's own body

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turned into a disguise.

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A disguise which cannot be discarded.

0:09:10.515,0:09:12.922
Amongst the tens of thousands of European oil paintings

0:09:12.922,0:09:17.427
of nudes, there are perhaps 20 or 30 exceptions, paintings in which the

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artist has seen the woman revealed as herself.

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this Rubens

0:09:26.335,0:09:29.585
this Rembrant

0:09:31.186,0:09:35.336
this George De La Tour

0:09:35.336,0:09:37.905
These paintings are as personal as love poems

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and their character is quite distinctive

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Most nudes oil paintings have been lined up

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by their painters for the pleasure of the

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male spectator only

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who will assess and judge them

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as sights

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Their nudity is another form of dress

0:09:56.435,0:09:59.770
They are condemned to never being naked

0:09:59.770,0:10:02.114
with their clothes off, they are as formal

0:10:02.114,0:10:06.048
as with their clothes on

0:10:06.048,0:10:10.164
Those who are not judged beautiful, are not beautiful.

0:10:10.164,0:10:13.995
Those who are, are given the prize.

0:10:13.995,0:10:16.077
The prize is to be owned.

0:10:16.077,0:10:19.072
That is to say, to be available.

0:10:19.398,0:10:21.774
Charles II commissioned this secret painting

0:10:21.774,0:10:24.962
from Lale. It's like hundreds of others,

0:10:24.962,0:10:27.239
it might be Venus and Cupid, but

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in fact, it was a portrait of one of his mistresses Nell Gwen.

0:10:31.061,0:10:33.933
He chose her passively looking at the

0:10:33.933,0:10:37.725
spectator staring at her naked.

0:10:37.725,0:10:41.742
Her nakedness is not an expression of her own feelings

0:10:41.742,0:10:46.510
it is only a sign of her submission to his demand

0:10:46.510,0:10:49.939
The painting, when he shows it to others,

0:10:49.939,0:10:54.226
demonstrates this submission. His guests envy him.

0:10:54.226,0:10:58.692
By contrast, in another tradition, nakedness is a celebration of

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active sexual love as between two people,

0:11:02.522,0:11:05.572
the woman as active as the man

0:11:05.572,0:11:10.487
the actions of each absorb the other.

0:11:10.487,0:11:13.453
In oil painting, the second person or the second

0:11:13.453,0:11:18.212
person who matters it the person looking at the painting.

0:11:18.212,0:11:22.870
Compare these two women.

0:11:22.870,0:11:26.176
One the model for what is considered a masterpiece by Eng

0:11:26.176,0:11:30.587
and the other an ill paid model for a photograph in a girly magazine

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Or these two

0:11:35.472,0:11:37.050
just the expresssion, the look,

0:11:37.050,0:11:40.974
what do you see?

0:11:40.974,0:11:42.684
It seems to me that in each pair, the expression

0:11:42.684,0:11:45.541
is remarkably similar, and it is an

0:11:45.541,0:11:48.249
expression of responding with remarkable charm

0:11:48.249,0:11:51.399
to the man who she knows is looking at her

0:11:51.399,0:11:54.487
although she doesn't know him

0:11:54.487,0:11:56.027
It is true that sometimes a painting includes

0:11:56.027,0:11:59.534
a male lover, but the woman's attention is very rarely

0:11:59.534,0:12:03.140
directed towards him. She looks away from him

0:12:03.140,0:12:06.910
or she looks out of the picture towards he who

0:12:06.910,0:12:11.862
considers himself her true lover, the spectator-owner

0:12:11.862,0:12:16.326
this painting was sent as a present from the Grand Duke of Florence to the King of France

0:12:16.326,0:12:18.843
The boy kneeling on the cushion and kissing

0:12:18.843,0:12:20.958
is Cupid the woman is Venus

0:12:20.958,0:12:22.955
But the way her body is arranged has nothing to do with

0:12:22.955,0:12:27.683
that kissing. Her body is arranged the way it is to display it

0:12:27.683,0:12:30.734
to the man looking at the picture

0:12:30.734,0:12:34.399
the picture is made to appeal to his sexuality

0:12:34.399,0:12:37.330
it has nothing to do with her sexuality

0:12:37.330,0:12:41.475
The convention of not painting the hair on a woman's body helps towards the same end.

0:12:41.475,0:12:44.174
Hair is associated with sexual power, with passion.

0:12:44.174,0:12:46.554
The woman's sexual passion, needs to be

0:12:46.554,0:12:49.613
minimized, so that the spectator feels

0:12:49.613,0:12:52.887
that he has the monopoly of such passion.

0:12:52.887,0:12:54.819
There were paintings which depicted

0:12:54.819,0:12:56.394
male lovers. These did exist.

0:12:56.394,0:12:59.484
But they were mostly private, semi-pornographic

0:12:59.484,0:13:02.566
pictures. In most paintings, which were painted to be seen

0:13:02.566,0:13:06.168
rather than hidden, the only rival to the male

0:13:06.168,0:13:08.899
spectator is a cupid.

0:13:08.899,0:13:11.536
Now, how extraordinary it is that the

0:13:11.536,0:13:14.786
pictorial symbol of passion is a small boy.

0:13:14.786,0:13:19.928
For a similar reason, women in the European art of the oil painting are seldom seen dancing.

0:13:19.928,0:13:25.520
They have to be shown languid, exhibiting a minimum of energy.

0:13:25.520,0:13:29.449
They are there to feed an appetite, not to have any of their own.

0:13:32.509,0:13:34.823
The appetite was theoretically gargantuan.

0:13:38.172,0:13:41.202
The absurdity of this male flattery, although it was not seen as absurd then

0:13:43.502,0:13:47.560
reached its peak in the public academic art of the 19th C

0:13:48.506,0:13:50.822
prime ministers discussed under paintings like this

0:13:50.822,0:13:57.419
when one of him felt he had been outwitted, he looked up for consolation

0:13:57.419,0:13:59.314
the nude in European oil painting

0:13:59.314,0:14:02.883
is usually presented as an ideal subject

0:14:02.883,0:14:05.868
it is said to be an expression of the European humanist spirit

0:14:05.868,0:14:10.245
I don't want to reject entirely the truth of this,

0:14:10.245,0:14:11.691
but I have tried to add to it

0:14:11.691,0:14:14.717
starting off from a different viewpoint.

0:14:14.717,0:14:17.480
Duer who believed in the ideal nude

0:14:18.557,0:14:21.616
thought that this ideal could be constructed

0:14:21.616,0:14:24.092
by taking the shoulders from one body

0:14:24.092,0:14:26.112
the hands of another, the breasts of another,

0:14:26.112,0:14:28.588
and so on

0:14:28.588,0:14:30.936
Was this humanist idealism?

0:14:30.936,0:14:33.252
Or was it the result of the indifference

0:14:33.252,0:14:36.957
to who any one person really was?

0:14:38.038,0:14:39.420
Do these paintings celebrate

0:14:39.420,0:14:40.705
as we're normally taught

0:14:40.705,0:14:42.766
the women within them?

0:14:42.766,0:14:45.753
or the male voyeur?

0:14:45.753,0:14:49.875
Is there sexuality within the frame?

0:14:49.875,0:14:52.477
or in front of it?

0:14:52.477,0:14:56.527
I showed the program, as you have seen it, up to now, to five women.

0:14:56.527,0:14:59.451
It began to seem absurd that the only images

0:14:59.451,0:15:01.446
that you are seeing are of women

0:15:01.446,0:15:03.146
silent, mute

0:15:03.146,0:15:05.143
So, I showed it to them and asked them to comment.

0:15:05.143,0:15:06.940
To comment not so much on the program

0:15:06.940,0:15:09.320
but rather on the questions raised by it

0:15:09.320,0:15:12.178
Above all, on the question of how men see women

0:15:12.178,0:15:13.720
or how they have seen them in the past.

0:15:13.720,0:15:16.364
And how this influences the way women see

0:15:16.364,0:15:18.353
themselves today.

0:15:18.353,0:15:19.223
We have an image, of

0:15:19.223,0:15:20.923
Of course, we all have an image of ourselves

0:15:20.923,0:15:24.662
and it is a visual image, but I wonder how

0:15:24.662,0:15:28.902
much this sort of classical European painting

0:15:28.902,0:15:30.538
has shaped that image.

0:15:30.538,0:15:33.146
In my own case, I find it quite impossible when I

0:15:33.146,0:15:36.777
look at the paintings you show, in your film, I can't

0:15:36.777,0:15:39.156
take them seriously, I cannot identify with them

0:15:39.156,0:15:41.503
because they are so immensely exaggerated.

0:15:41.503,0:15:44.331
Always, you know, they fasten onto some secondary

0:15:44.331,0:15:48.318
sexual characteristic, these enormous breasts,

0:15:48.318,0:15:53.428
these beasting bottoms, those huge things like that

0:15:53.428,0:15:56.062
and they just aren't real. Whereas with

0:15:56.062,0:15:58.449
photographs, you can feel that as potentially, possibly

0:16:00.377,0:16:11.117
although it probably isn't. Many of these paintings you show are idealized.

0:16:11.117,0:16:15.167
Um, and therefore, they are to me very unreal.

0:16:15.167,0:16:20.373
in connection with any deep down image that I might have of myself

0:16:20.373,0:16:21.818
or in connection with any deep down

0:16:21.818,0:16:23.911
pleasure I might have

0:16:23.911,0:16:26.642
when looking at another female body

0:16:26.642,0:16:29.980
they don't give me that pleasure at all

0:16:29.980,0:16:33.134
I can admire then as paintings

0:16:34.076,0:16:36.614
but they don't mean human beings to me

0:16:36.614,0:16:38.283
the image that I compare myself to

0:16:38.283,0:16:40.154
is the photograph because it is with photographs

0:16:40.154,0:16:42.692
that I have been encouraged to think of myself

0:16:42.692,0:16:45.040
in this way, it is essentially advertising to me

0:16:45.040,0:16:49.216
that has made me think of myself in this way

0:16:49.216,0:16:50.534
and consequently, I find it extremely interesting to go

0:16:50.534,0:16:53.171
back and think of nudes in this way because

0:16:53.171,0:16:55.326
I have never done so, but having seen the film

0:16:55.326,0:16:57.866
I have no doubt that the same thing applies.

0:16:57.866,0:17:01.882
And do you find the nudes in painting unreal

0:17:01.882,0:17:04.846
in the same way? yes.

0:17:04.846,0:17:08.439
Well, you can't get any information from it,

0:17:08.439,0:17:12.688
can you ? there's no guide to how you might--

0:17:12.688,0:17:13.454
what information is lacking?

0:17:13.454,0:17:19.085
well, activity. Dynamism. it is how

0:17:19.085,0:17:20.593
someone sees you and that's all,

0:17:20.593,0:17:23.166
it is laid upon you.

0:17:23.166,0:17:25.259
I'm glad you showed the men in picture

0:17:25.259,0:17:28.245
because I always find this extremely shocking

0:17:28.245,0:17:32.398
the men are dressed and the women are naked

0:17:32.398,0:17:35.097
and this seems to sum up the entire situation

0:17:35.097,0:17:39.529
because these women as well being humiliated

0:17:39.529,0:17:40.752
and I think this is part of the whole

0:17:40.752,0:17:42.356
scheme of things

0:17:42.356,0:17:44.129
as most people have had, at some station

0:17:44.129,0:17:49.209
in life, nightmares about running through the streets with nothing on

0:17:50.229,0:17:51.905
while everyone else is dressed. And this seems

0:17:51.905,0:17:52.991
to me to be one element in the picture.

0:17:52.991,0:17:55.338
One very interesting thing you said in the film was

0:17:55.338,0:18:01.026
about how nudity was really a kind of disguise,

0:18:01.026,0:18:03.827
it wasn't the real person themselves free.

0:18:03.827,0:18:07.135
But it was just another garment they were wearing

0:18:07.135,0:18:09.035
and worse than a garment, in a sense, because

0:18:09.035,0:18:11.023
it was something that you can't take off.

0:18:11.023,0:18:13.211
This comes, I think, from

0:18:13.211,0:18:16.878
nudity being combined with a pose. And that's

0:18:16.878,0:18:18.610
inevitable if you're going to have a painting

0:18:18.610,0:18:25.718
of a model. Um, in a way, I think that

0:18:25.718,0:18:28.617
we're always dressing. We're always dressing up

0:18:28.617,0:18:31.350
for a part. Always putting on a uniform of one kind of another

0:18:31.350,0:18:33.280
and I think women do this more than men

0:18:34.048,0:18:38.288
men have only been doing it fairly recently.

0:18:38.288,0:18:41.668
Women are always dressing to show the kind of

0:18:41.668,0:18:45.172
character that they want to present: the mother, the working

0:18:45.172,0:18:48.775
woman, the pretty young chick. And nudity

0:18:48.775,0:18:53.724
is a uniform, in a way, for I'm ready

0:18:53.724,0:18:57.356
for sexual pleasure. So, it doesn't. You can't

0:18:59.423,0:19:04.925
identify being nude with being free.

0:19:04.925,0:19:06.245
Only just recently read that book

0:19:06.245,0:19:10.388
which describes a way in which a woman

0:19:10.388,0:19:14.022
is reduced to the sexual pleasure she can

0:19:14.022,0:19:17.560
to a complete object provide to a man. And what struck me in all that book

0:19:18.671,0:19:21.626
that was the most impressive image is the fact that she was told

0:19:21.626,0:19:24.941
that she was never to touch her own breasts to

0:19:24.941,0:19:29.221
close her own mouth or to put her legs

0:19:29.221,0:19:32.304
together. So, the whole point about her stance

0:19:32.304,0:19:33.430
all the time is that she was available

0:19:33.430,0:19:38.254
and this sense of being available of waiting

0:19:38.254,0:19:41.824
for other people is the very antithesis of action

0:19:41.824,0:19:46.097
and you know just like the Brook Street

0:19:46.097,0:19:47.807
Bureau advertisement, Tony hasn't run. He's

0:19:47.807,0:19:49.971
three minutes late in ringing. You feel this whole

0:19:49.971,0:19:53.030
situation, the number of women you talk to who

0:19:53.030,0:19:57.343
say I stay in so many night a week, waiting for someone to ring

0:19:57.343,0:19:59.958
the concept of availability implies

0:19:59.958,0:20:02.941
passivity because if you're simply waiting for someone else to act

0:20:04.143,0:20:06.501
then you can't help yourself.

0:20:06.546,0:20:09.254
yes, it's like you will awake when a man touches

0:20:09.663,0:20:14.710
you when a man kisses you. Whether its an excuse,

0:20:14.710,0:20:17.954
to get yourself going, I think women are shy

0:20:21.905,0:20:25.339
they are waiting too long.

0:20:25.603,0:20:26.889
yes, yes.

0:20:27.112,0:20:29.131
Could I say something now about narcissism?

0:20:29.131,0:20:32.031
I think that both men and women are narcissistic

0:20:32.031,0:20:35.178
but in different senses, and I think

0:20:35.178,0:20:38.811
that one in sometimes I have the impression

0:20:38.811,0:20:41.702
that men and women are tremendously

0:20:41.702,0:20:44.252
narcissistic and are cut off from each other

0:20:44.252,0:20:46.558
from their images of themselves. But

0:20:46.558,0:20:49.840
whereas a woman's image of herself is derived

0:20:50.526,0:20:53.553
directly from other people, the mirror you're talking about

0:20:53.553,0:20:56.985
a man's image of himself is derived from

0:20:56.985,0:21:00.534
the world that is its the world that gives him back

0:21:00.534,0:21:08.757
his image because he acts in it. and the women are drawn to him as a source, as central activity,

0:21:08.757,0:21:11.072
and as a source of worth

0:21:11.924,0:21:13.754
since he is in the world, the fact

0:21:13.754,0:21:17.650
that he values her is important

0:21:17.650,0:21:21.212
and so because their centers of narcissism are different,

0:21:21.212,0:21:23.943
and the woman's is essentially only

0:21:23.943,0:21:27.322
related to the other person

0:21:27.322,0:21:28.648
she is in a much more passive position than he is

0:21:28.648,0:21:30.052
in relation to it

0:21:30.052,0:21:32.915
yes

0:21:32.915,0:21:35.188
do you see narcissism as essentially a negative

0:21:36.932,0:21:40.530
or positive phenomenon?

0:21:40.530,0:21:44.259
well, i think that is very difficult to answer

0:21:44.259,0:21:48.118
but in the sense that it is related to

0:21:48.118,0:21:50.657
an identity, um, it is a positive phenomenon

0:21:50.657,0:21:53.521
and it seems to me that what women envy in men in that

0:21:53.521,0:21:54.993
they have a sense of their

0:21:54.993,0:21:56.702
own identity

0:21:56.702,0:21:58.023
that there is something in them

0:21:58.023,0:22:00.136
that is important to them other than

0:22:00.136,0:22:02.267
simply what other people think of them

0:22:02.267,0:22:03.833
and I think that thing

0:22:03.833,0:22:07.594
is product of their interaction in the world

0:22:07.594,0:22:12.099
and it is almost as if through this interaction

0:22:12.099,0:22:15.701
they build up a store of worth

0:22:15.701,0:22:17.625
of their sense of themselves

0:22:17.625,0:22:20.643
which is a constant

0:22:20.643,0:22:22.417
it cannot be lost

0:22:22.417,0:22:24.055
and because a woman doesn't go out

0:22:24.055,0:22:25.245
and do that

0:22:25.245,0:22:26.660
she doesn't create a store

0:22:26.660,0:22:30.136
she waits for the present interaction with a man

0:22:30.136,0:22:32.512
that can go, that can end at any moment

0:22:38.120,0:22:41.568
there is something here that really

0:22:43.501,0:22:45.581
I would like to push around a little bit

0:22:45.721,0:22:48.736
because narcissism is a very pronounced

0:22:48.736,0:22:52.976
way of stating a relationship with the world

0:22:52.976,0:22:55.834
whether it is a man or a woman

0:22:55.834,0:22:59.851
but this other question which is contained

0:22:59.851,0:23:05.930
within it, but doesn't go as far as it as an idea

0:23:05.930,0:23:10.563
is this sort of self delight of a person

0:23:10.563,0:23:11.390
whether or it is a man or woman

0:23:12.884,0:23:14.752
in life, in what they're doing

0:23:14.752,0:23:19.800
in relationships with a man or woman

0:23:21.703,0:23:27.271
and it is a thing that matters tremendously

0:23:27.271,0:23:30.259
and its not only a thing that is an inner thing

0:23:30.259,0:23:32.031
by which you life

0:23:32.031,0:23:34.177
but it is a very outer thing

0:23:34.177,0:23:38.875
by which you gain relationships with

0:23:38.875,0:23:40.192
your own context in the world

0:23:40.581,0:23:43.831
that you can't gain any other way

0:23:43.831,0:23:47.264
its when you've somehow been made

0:23:47.264,0:23:49.868
so unconscious of yourself that

0:23:49.868,0:23:53.086
you easily, naturally,sort of

0:23:53.086,0:23:58.548
compulsively go out to whatever is around you

0:23:58.548,0:24:01.639
now, when you're a child that tends

0:24:01.639,0:24:05.657
with people to be other things

0:24:05.657,0:24:06.943
doesn't it?

0:24:06.943,0:24:11.351
mountains, streams, whereever you go

0:24:11.351,0:24:17.493
and then only gradually as you go on

0:24:17.493,0:24:25.877
you make this kind of absolutely necessary contact with people

0:24:25.877,0:24:30.926
but I do think that the sort of essense

0:24:30.926,0:24:35.749
of self delight as a kind of possible thing

0:24:35.749,0:24:38.225
in the modern world and something

0:24:38.225,0:24:41.434
that fewer women have than men and want and must have

0:24:42.662,0:24:46.747
is the power, the compulsion, not the power

0:24:46.747,0:24:51.853
the compulsion to make contact with the world

0:24:51.853,0:24:53.409
as you are living in it

0:24:53.409,0:24:54.489
and when I'm saying that I don't

0:24:54.489,0:24:57.580
simply mean the people next door

0:24:57.580,0:25:00.344
I mean what is going on

0:25:00.344,0:25:02.279
yes

0:25:02.279,0:25:04.168
I am not so sure about the delight

0:25:04.168,0:25:06.264
I think it is a very double edged thing

0:25:06.264,0:25:07.798
I know

0:25:07.798,0:25:09.921
as I suppose I've always known

0:25:09.921,0:25:11.397
that I became aware of it in this film

0:25:11.397,0:25:13.968
I've never consciously looked at myself in

0:25:13.968,0:25:16.741
the mirror and seen myself as I am

0:25:16.741,0:25:18.505
I always see the image that I want

0:25:18.505,0:25:20.206
I know that I want to

0:25:20.206,0:25:21.626
and my children notice it that if I make up

0:25:21.626,0:25:23.365
my face I put on a certain expression

0:25:23.365,0:25:27.152
if I , from adolescence on, if I have seen myself

0:25:27.152,0:25:28.891
naked in the mirror, I have not thought of

0:25:28.891,0:25:31.385
myself naked, I have thought of myself as a nude

0:25:31.385,0:25:34.642
and I think this comes from having been trolled

0:25:34.642,0:25:37.084
around all the major art galleries

0:25:37.084,0:25:40.687
in essence, this is culture, this is beauty

0:25:40.687,0:25:42.100
with a capital B

0:25:42.100,0:25:44.127
and, of course, up to a point from advertising too

0:25:44.127,0:25:46.437
but much more from the painting

0:25:46.437,0:25:51.286
um, that you think the female body is beautiful

0:25:51.286,0:25:53.402
I am a beautiful object, if not, I have to do

0:25:53.402,0:25:55.176
something about it

0:25:55.176,0:25:57.164
um, and therefore, the painful part

0:25:57.164,0:26:00.351
of a narcissistic society is the feeling of inadequacy

0:26:00.351,0:26:03.337
this business of always posing in a mirror

0:26:03.337,0:26:08.651
I think one does absolutely automatically

0:26:08.651,0:26:11.379
and if you actually catch yourself

0:26:11.379,0:26:15.108
in a mirror by chance that is not deliberately

0:26:15.108,0:26:18.158
because you're getting dressed or having a bath

0:26:18.158,0:26:21.090
there's one in the street, or you catch yourself

0:26:21.090,0:26:23.174
in a shop window, it's a tremendous shock

0:26:23.174,0:26:25.850
because you suddenly see yourself as you are

0:26:25.850,0:26:27.902
which is windblown, untidy, badly dressed

0:26:27.902,0:26:30.443
tired, and so on

0:26:30.443,0:26:31.859
you don't see the person

0:26:31.859,0:26:34.110
at all, and I think this is what happens to women

0:26:34.110,0:26:35.874
they are always trying to measure

0:26:35.874,0:26:39.642
up to this erotic image that is projected.

0:26:39.642,0:26:42.566
There are some paintings

0:26:42.566,0:26:45.423
and I'm thinking at this moment of one painting

0:26:45.423,0:26:47.293
where there is a woman

0:26:47.293,0:26:48.803
who is wearing a garment

0:26:48.803,0:26:52.077
she is not nude

0:26:52.142,0:26:54.240
but it is a garment so loose, so comfortable

0:26:54.240,0:26:57.096
so easy, and its my idea, very much

0:26:57.096,0:27:02.757
of what a picture of a woman might be like

0:27:02.757,0:27:06.582
I think its from a period before yours,

0:27:06.582,0:27:08.898
it's so long ago by Lorenzetti

0:27:08.898,0:27:12.404
it's a fresco, very very old

0:27:12.404,0:27:14.743
and it is a picture of a woman

0:27:14.743,0:27:16.646
who is suppossed to represent peace

0:27:16.646,0:27:18.318
it's quite extraordinary

0:27:18.318,0:27:20.280
she could be one of the liberated

0:27:20.280,0:27:22.690
or trying to be liberated young women

0:27:22.690,0:27:25.708
of today. she is at ease, she is relaxed

0:27:25.708,0:27:29.123
she is not playing the part at all

0:27:29.123,0:27:31.920
she is able to combine

0:27:31.920,0:27:34.774
pleasure with thought

0:27:34.774,0:27:36.898
and with dreaming

0:27:36.898,0:27:38.695
and she is, she might spring into action

0:27:38.695,0:27:40.011
at any moment

0:27:40.011,0:27:41.969
and for me

0:27:41.969,0:27:43.937
she has much, much more to do

0:27:43.937,0:27:49.107
with nakedness, with oneself, with the

0:27:49.107,0:27:53.644
truth of oneself than any other nudes I have seen

0:27:54.122,0:27:58.340
[music]