WEBVTT
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[dramatic music]
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Deep beneath the West Australian outback
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lies the germ of an idea.
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A dream about
making the world a safer place
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that's gone beyond just the dreaming.
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(man) "We have a very specific goal,
dispose of nuclear wastes,
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pull out the nuclear weapons
and get them out of the way."
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Jim Voss envisages a catacomb
500 metres beneath his feet
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that would keep safe forever
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one of the most toxic poisons
known to humankind.
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(Voss) "Australia has the opportunity
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to use its democratic forces
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to say this is something
we should be doing for the world.
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[alarm blaring]
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For half a century,
the problem of nuclear waste disposal
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has dogged the world,
and one company called Pangea,
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backed by big money and influence,
wants to bury it in Australia.
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You'll find a great deal
of enthusiasm in the United States,
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and I suspect around the world.
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They have backing from incredible people
within government and industry.
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(ad) To make the world a safer place
for the people we love...
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Tonight, Four Corners
goes inside the company called Pangea.
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We examine a scheme
that's provoked accusations of secrecy
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and back-door influence peddling,
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a scheme that forces Australia
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to confront its role
in the nuclear world.
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(ad) Australia will make
our world a safer place
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We're not interested in nuclear power
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and we're not interested in being
the world's nuclear waste dump.
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♪ (music) ♪
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(Voss) We're just headed out
here into the desert.
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(man) What you're looking for,
of course
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is the most remote areas
you can find, right?"
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(Voss) Well, in part.
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The geology is far more important
than the remoteness.
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Pangea's Jim Voss
and scientist Charles McCombie
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took Four Corners on the long trip
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from Perth, 340 kilometres
north east of Kalgoorlie,
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to the edge of the Great Victoria Desert.
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(McCombie) The flatness, even more
important than how it looks on the surface
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if you look out at the horizon
it's all very flat.
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This is one of the flattest areas
in the world and that's a real key issue
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to the– what we call a high isolation site
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(helicopter blades whirring)
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Latitude 28 south, longitude 123 east.
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(whirring continues)
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Out in this area
the size of Western Europe
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lies a patch of ground
20 kilometres square
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that they believe could house
a repository for up to 20 percent
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of the world's nuclear waste.
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Out here you find pangea rock --
very old, very stable --
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the geology from which
the company gets its name.
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(McCombie) And in the basin area
and where we're on the edge now,
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it's 300 to 800 million years
of quiet build-up of sediments.
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So this is one of the most
stable geological areas
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that you'll find in the world.
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But it's not just science.
Politics are just as crucial
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in dealing with radioactive waste
and nuclear disarmament
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and that's what makes Australia
more attractive than Argentina,
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Namibia, and China,
where pangea rock is also found.
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(Voss) Well, it's the political stability
that we're concerned about.
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Australia's tradition
in democratic principles,
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Australia's environmental activism
is vital to us. Australia's role
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in the international community
for disarmament for all sorts of weapons
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nuclear, land mines, chemical weapons,
very important facets to us for Australia
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Behind Pangea stand
three international organisations.
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The huge British government-owned
nuclear conglomerate, BNFL
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British Nuclear Fuels Limited,
which owns 80 percent
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a Canadian company
called Golder Associates
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world experts in toxic waste management
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and Nagra, a Swiss organisation
responsible for finding
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a nuclear waste dump
for Switzerland's nuclear industry.
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(advertisement) The simple fact
is that more than 30 countries
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use nuclear power.
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Pangea originally planned
to launch its scheme on Australians
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last month, with a 9 million dollar
war chest for advertising and promoting
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a scheme it knew would meet
an incredulous public
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and skeptical politicians.
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Those plans fell apart in December
last year, when the British arm
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of Friends Of The Earth
got hold of the video
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Pangea prepared for the launch
and sent it to Australia.
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(Pangea promotional video) Above all,
Pangea will provide the world
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with a safe solution
to the disposal of nuclear materials.
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(man) Oh, it arrived in
an unmarked brown envelope
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on my desk, and I had no idea
where it came from. I felt that this
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should not be sprung on Australians in a
kind of hole-in-the-wall secret underhand way
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but they should learn as soon as possible
what was being planned for them.
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(Pangea promotional video)
Before any responsible country
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would send their waste for disposal,
they must be certain
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not only that the respository is safe,
but also that its safety must be seen
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to be clearly and rigorously regulated.
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(Voss) We were of course, disappointed.
It was our intention to roll Pangea out
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in a very public and planned manner,
to give everybody an opportunity to debate.
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(woman) "My question is to
Senator Minchin, Minister for Resources -"
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The response to the video was immediate.
Opponents were appalled
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at the idea of a nuclear dumping ground.
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(woman) " ... Will he rule out completely
any involvement of his government
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in setting up an international nuclear
waste repository in Australia?"
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The Federal Government
moved to distance itself.
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(Senator Minchin) "And the Government
has absolutely no intention of accepting
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the radioactive waste of other countries.
The policy is clear - "
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In the following months,
the Industry and Resources Minister's line
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has hardened.
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(Senator Minchin) "There may be
other countries that
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in far less fortuitous
economic circumstances than Australia
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that do decide they want to accept
international nuclear waste.
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Well that's their business,
and that may be one way
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in which those countries
with a waste problem deal with it.
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But Australia won't be that nation
that accepts the waste."
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But Pangea's plans for the outback
are a reminder of Australia's part
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in the nuclear world:
an exporter of uranium,
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part of the American nuclear umbrella
and a leading advocate of disarmament.
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What Pangea is doing
is putting together a growing network
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of international
and Australian businessmen,
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scientists and policy makers who believe
that Australia should also have a role
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to play in resolving one of the
nuclear age's most pressing problems:
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what to do with the stockpiles
of nuclear waste
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that have been growing now
for half a century.
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It's a debate they say
that Australia has to have
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one that can't be dodged forever,
and one upon which Australians themselves
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will eventually have to take a stand.
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(indistinct lecturing)
NOTE Paragraph
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Amongst those who believe Australia
should play a role is the president
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of the Australian Academy of Science
who's personally backing Pangea
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and will sit on
its scientific review panel.
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(professor) "I think it is important
that they engage the Australian public
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and engage the Australian public's
representatives, namely the politicians
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so that the politicians get
as clear a view as it's possible to get
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of what the proposal's really about.
The existence of nuclear waste
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is a world problem and Australia
in this respect is part of the world
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and if we can help reduce that danger
by putting that particular problem to bed
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that is great."
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(Jenkins) "This industry thinking that
it can solve its problems by shifting them
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to some remote place,
and also onto future generations
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and that makes one quietly angry."
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♪ (ominous music) ♪
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The creeping poison of nuclear waste
began with the advent of the nuclear age
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more than half a century ago,
but it took three decades
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before governments
began to take it seriously.
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In 1943, the 2,000 citizens of Hanford
and neighbouring Bluff Cliffs
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in the northwest US state of Washington
got 30 days notice to move out
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when the top-secret Manhattan Program
to build the first atomic bomb
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got underway.
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They never came back.
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Fifty-six years later, what's left behind
is abandoned, no longer top secret
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but still deadly.
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1,400 square kilometres
of poisoned land, a wilderness
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of dumped nuclear waste
from the reactors
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that produced plutonium
for bombs and warheads
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fodder for 30 years of cold war.
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(construction machinery)
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The detritus lies scattered and buried.
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(more machinery)
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A clean-up's underway,
but it'll take 50 years
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at a cost of five and a half
million dollars every single day.
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David Pentz first came to Hanford
in the '80s at the behest
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of the American government.
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A specialist in waste disposal,
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Pentz spent three years investigating
whether the contaminated site
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might become the world's first permanent
dump for highly radioactive waste.
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It didn't work,
because the geology
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proved too complex,
and it's not yet worked
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anywhere else in the world.
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(Pentz) "I think total costs, probably
we've spent in the world today,
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is certainly in excess of $20 billion,
and we obviously don't have a repository
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licenced repository,
anywhere in the world."
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Pentz went home to Seattle,
but the idea of a disposal site
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deep underground did not go away.
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He nagged at the problem
and it nagged at him.
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Pentz was chairman of Golder Associates,
the industrial waste experts
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and under its umbrella in March 1997,
he set up Pangea Resources Limited.
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(Pentz) "We see ourselves as an ambassador
of a problem, a world problem,
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and we think Australia should
at least talk about it and consider it
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in a rational sense
because of, that we at least,
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and I think you will find
others in the world
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believe that Australia
has an incredible opportunity
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to help the world,
and if you want to call that
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as being good neighbourly, so be it.
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To me it's, uh, good neighbourly
doesn't put enough dimension
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on the challenge that the world faces.
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From modest offices
in the high-tech part of Seattle
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that is home to Microsoft,
Pentz is working to ensure
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the idea doesn't die.
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(woman) "Mr. Pentz, I have Australia
and the UK on the line
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- for the conference call."
- "Thank you very much."
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(Pentz) "I could say our tactics
are absolutely a disaster, unequivocally.
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I would say however our tactics
were not of our own making, right?"
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(George) "So in retrospect, the secrecy
with which you've cloaked your proposal
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has been a mistake?"
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"Yes I think that, and some people,
and I have questioned myself
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whether that was right."
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(George) "Because one of the great
criticisms of the whole nuclear industry
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and all the, in it's history,
has always been its secrecy, hasn't it?"
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"Absolutely, and that's tied
both sides of the nuclear industry.
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Obviously on the weapons side
and even on the commercial side.
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I couldn't agree with you more."
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- (man) "Hello, David."
- (Pentz) "Well hi, Jim! Welcome aboard!"
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Pentz still runs about 60 people
around the world, some half of them
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contracted on a part-time basis.
Amongst them, Ralph Stoll
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a former US nuclear submarine commander.
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(Stoll) "It looks like, there's a reason
to go to Washington next week,
00:14:10.358 --> 00:14:12.737
to follow up with some of these ideas."
00:14:13.017 --> 00:14:18.139
In Australia, Jim Voss is looking
for new ways to open doors for Pangea.
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(Voss on phone) "The Pangea papers were
right where we wanted them, that is
00:14:23.943 --> 00:14:27.202
presenting where we stand
in our feasibility studies."
00:14:27.202 --> 00:14:28.143
(Pentz) "Yeah."
00:14:28.303 --> 00:14:33.466
There's no shortage of funds.
Pangea had a $40 million budget this year
00:14:33.466 --> 00:14:38.031
but much of it won't now get spent
because the political heat in Australia
00:14:38.031 --> 00:14:41.597
has delayed plans for exploration
in Western Australia.
00:14:42.137 --> 00:14:45.695
(George) "So if the government is saying,
no, it's against our policy
00:14:45.695 --> 00:14:48.705
why pursue it?
Why not just go away?"
00:14:50.725 --> 00:14:55.920
(Pentz) "Because the idea
of an international repository
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and the benefits
it will bring the world is real.
00:15:02.690 --> 00:15:09.540
We think we have begun to see how we
could put the genie back into the bottle
00:15:12.040 --> 00:15:16.352
and, you know, ideas
of this size ...
00:15:20.047 --> 00:15:21.047
don't go away."
00:15:22.782 --> 00:15:30.580
♪ (music) ♪
00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:35.126
From Seattle, Pentz and Stoll
are on the move across the continent.
00:15:36.086 --> 00:15:39.475
"I have, I think received
a very good response
00:15:39.475 --> 00:15:43.732
both in and outside of the government
to the concept that Pangea represents."
00:15:43.962 --> 00:16:05.521
♪ (solemn music) ♪
00:16:05.831 --> 00:16:10.256
"I wonder if these ...
kinds will work with Pangea."
00:16:10.726 --> 00:16:14.947
In the 18 months since
Ralph Stoll's first visit to Washington
00:16:14.947 --> 00:16:19.463
Pangea's briefed officials
in the US State Department, the Pentagon
00:16:19.463 --> 00:16:23.336
the Department of Energy,
and presidential advisers
00:16:23.336 --> 00:16:28.111
in two powerful arms of American security,
the National Security Council
00:16:28.111 --> 00:16:30.647
and the National Security Agency.
00:16:32.457 --> 00:16:37.158
And to reach the administration's
highest political levels, Pangea's hired
00:16:37.158 --> 00:16:40.313
a big-hitter lobbyist, the man slated
00:16:40.313 --> 00:16:44.004
to run Vice President Al Gore's
presidential campaign next year.
00:16:44.934 --> 00:16:48.003
And Pangea's struck a chord
that shifts its focus
00:16:48.003 --> 00:16:49.714
from a commercial venture,
00:16:49.714 --> 00:16:52.852
to play to America's
strategic preoccupation
00:16:52.852 --> 00:16:56.137
with growing stockpiles
of nuclear warheads.
00:16:57.028 --> 00:16:59.867
"The world has a serious problem
with nuclear waste.
00:16:59.867 --> 00:17:05.314
There are thousands and thousands
of tons of it, and thousands of tons more
00:17:05.314 --> 00:17:11.780
coming on-line each year, so to speak,
as well as many thousands of tons
00:17:11.780 --> 00:17:16.078
that are derivative
from former nuclear weapons programs,
00:17:16.078 --> 00:17:22.388
and these have to be stored
safely and securely for thousands of years
00:17:22.388 --> 00:17:24.922
and the world simply doesn't
have a solution to this
00:17:24.922 --> 00:17:28.739
and as long as this waste
is stored in an imperfect fashion
00:17:28.739 --> 00:17:32.489
which it is now, virtually everywhere,
it represents something of a threat."
00:17:33.199 --> 00:17:36.302
Until the end of last year,
Jan Lodal was responsible
00:17:36.302 --> 00:17:38.671
for running nuclear policy
for the Pentagon.
00:17:39.301 --> 00:17:43.318
"I think that the American government
is likely to be very attracted
00:17:43.318 --> 00:17:49.000
to the possibility of such a site,
and it will also see the attractiveness
00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:50.856
of Australia's location."
00:17:52.706 --> 00:17:58.330
At Washington's Georgetown University,
Pangea has another influential ally
00:17:58.330 --> 00:18:02.546
in President Clinton's special adviser
for disarmament, who's concerned
00:18:02.546 --> 00:18:06.475
about bombs or the raw material
falling into the hands
00:18:06.475 --> 00:18:08.705
of rogue states and terrorist groups.
00:18:09.676 --> 00:18:12.037
"In the United States,
we are very concerned
00:18:12.037 --> 00:18:15.500
about what is generally called
in the literature the loose nuke problem.
00:18:15.630 --> 00:18:18.489
We are working with the Russians
in a very cooperative way,
00:18:18.489 --> 00:18:23.222
but still there are hundreds of tons,
when it only takes a few kilograms
00:18:23.222 --> 00:18:26.337
to make a bomb, there are hundreds
of tons of this material
00:18:26.337 --> 00:18:30.330
inadequately protected.
That's what we wanna take care of too.
00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:34.417
♪ (western music) ♪
00:18:34.417 --> 00:18:40.218
♪ On the trail you'll find me lopin',
while the spaces are wide open ♪
00:18:40.218 --> 00:18:45.191
♪ in the land of the old AEC, yee-hoo ♪
00:18:45.191 --> 00:18:51.216
♪ why, the cedar is attractive,
and the air is radioactive ♪
00:18:51.216 --> 00:18:54.908
♪ oh, the Wild West is
where I want to be ♪
00:18:55.958 --> 00:19:01.576
♪ 'mid the sagebrush and the cactus
I'll watch the fellas practice ♪
00:19:01.576 --> 00:19:06.899
♪ droppin' bombs through
the clean desert breeze, ah-ha ♪
00:19:06.899 --> 00:19:12.369
(bomb explosion)
00:19:14.999 --> 00:19:18.102
If nuclear disarmament
was the peace dividend
00:19:18.102 --> 00:19:21.217
from the end of the Cold War,
then the problem of dealing
00:19:21.217 --> 00:19:25.045
with today's unwanted nuclear bombs
is the peace headache.
00:19:28.115 --> 00:19:31.052
In pursuit of superiority
over the Russians,
00:19:31.052 --> 00:19:35.913
America detonated 928 bombs
at the Nevada test site,
00:19:35.913 --> 00:19:38.272
a hundred of them above ground.
00:19:39.163 --> 00:19:43.982
The tests took 40 years to conduct,
but the combined time
00:19:43.982 --> 00:19:48.300
for all those explosions
amounts to a mere 60 seconds
00:19:48.760 --> 00:19:52.882
a minute of the most destructive power
created by humankind.
00:19:53.412 --> 00:20:15.225
(explosions, wind, breaking glass, planes)
00:20:18.717 --> 00:20:24.237
The Cold War legacy is
100,000 nuclear warheads around the world.
00:20:25.307 --> 00:20:30.349
Disarmament talks call
for a reduction to 4,000 in 10 years.
00:20:31.355 --> 00:20:34.019
Pangea reckons
it can help disarmament
00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:37.018
by burying plutonium
from decommissioned warheads
00:20:37.318 --> 00:20:41.101
a claim questioned by critics
who say nothing in the plans
00:20:41.101 --> 00:20:43.557
ensure it can never be retrieved.
00:20:44.336 --> 00:20:46.981
"They cloak it as
a nuclear non proliferation
00:20:46.981 --> 00:20:50.083
and arms control proposal,
but when you look at the fine print
00:20:50.083 --> 00:20:53.508
it really is, at this point in time
at least, a bail-out
00:20:53.928 --> 00:20:57.384
for the nuclear industry and
for the plutonium industry in particular."
00:20:57.610 --> 00:21:01.076
"These need not be inconsistent at all.
00:21:01.076 --> 00:21:04.171
So I think that
it is a commercial enterprise
00:21:04.171 --> 00:21:07.138
but the potential for
a very positive impact
00:21:07.138 --> 00:21:09.850
on international security is very real."
00:21:09.462 --> 00:21:12.411
"That's the rhetoric.
That's the broad brush
00:21:12.552 --> 00:21:19.350
but the fine strokes indicate
that this spent fuel
00:21:19.307 --> 00:21:23.670
will be put underground
on a retrievable basis
00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:25.975
so that countries
that want to get it out, can."
00:21:26.145 --> 00:21:30.100
"The fact that there may be
retrievability doesn't bother me
00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:33.166
provided, of course,
the retrievability is
00:21:33.166 --> 00:21:36.147
something that were very easily
monitored and prevented
00:21:36.147 --> 00:21:38.747
if the international community
wished to prevent it
00:21:38.747 --> 00:21:40.759
and if you had
a remote site in Australia,
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:42.318
I think you could assure that."
00:21:50.558 --> 00:21:53.451
Fifty kilometres from
the Nevada test site
00:21:53.577 --> 00:21:58.049
lies Yucca Mountain,
and a stark reminder that America
00:21:58.049 --> 00:22:00.934
like the rest of the world,
has a growing problem
00:22:00.934 --> 00:22:02.382
with commercial waste.
00:22:02.852 --> 00:22:06.954
10,000 tons is created globally each year.
00:22:07.957 --> 00:22:11.495
"The alternative is the stuff
right now sitting in swimming pools
00:22:11.495 --> 00:22:14.878
and the basement of power plants
in metropolitan areas.
00:22:15.608 --> 00:22:18.145
What's that going to do
to our future generations?
00:22:18.145 --> 00:22:20.392
We can't make this stuff go away."
00:22:20.392 --> 00:22:26.174
Like Pangea, Jim Niggemeyer believes
the answer lies beneath his feet.
00:22:26.174 --> 00:22:29.606
(Niggemeyer) So for me,
this I think is safe for
00:22:29.606 --> 00:22:33.672
hundreds of thousands of years.
I don't see any other alternative
00:22:33.672 --> 00:22:36.055
that gets us beyond tens of years.
00:22:38.185 --> 00:22:42.783
(George) Fifteen kilometres of tunnel
lie inside Yucca Mountain.
00:22:43.236 --> 00:22:47.402
It represents America's
and the world's best bet yet
00:22:47.402 --> 00:22:51.519
for a nuclear waste dump.
But it's not a good bet at all.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:54.651
(Niggemeyer) And you'll notice
as we go down
00:22:54.651 --> 00:22:58.696
you'll see uh, ties of fairly heavy steel
around the tunnel.
00:22:58.696 --> 00:23:03.480
That's to hold up the rock and
give us general support.
00:23:04.410 --> 00:23:09.611
(George) The Yucca Mountain project's
cost the US $10 billion so far
00:23:09.611 --> 00:23:13.171
and it will be at least two years
before the US government
00:23:13.171 --> 00:23:15.634
decides whether it's safe to go ahead.
00:23:16.613 --> 00:23:20.841
The people of Nevada have already
decided: they don't want it.
00:23:21.361 --> 00:23:24.871
But they know they're up against
powerful nuclear interests.
00:23:25.535 --> 00:23:31.585
(Reid) They do it in a number of ways.
One is through fear and the distribution
00:23:31.585 --> 00:23:34.520
of bad information, false information.
00:23:34.630 --> 00:23:37.995
What they do is say
we need to get it outta here,
00:23:37.995 --> 00:23:39.767
and then everybody here'll be safe.
00:23:39.797 --> 00:23:42.967
And so that's the game they've played,
and they've done a good job.
00:23:42.967 --> 00:23:47.313
They have done a good job with
their government relations work
00:23:47.313 --> 00:23:54.812
here in Washington, they've got
the best lobbyists money can buy. (laughs)
00:23:56.442 --> 00:23:59.259
(George) If the nuclear industry
does get its way,
00:23:59.259 --> 00:24:04.192
this is what an underground
nuclear repository would look like.
00:24:04.192 --> 00:24:08.972
Kilometres of tunnels containing
steel and concrete canisters,
00:24:08.972 --> 00:24:14.255
radiating heat for hundreds of years;
their contents deadly
00:24:14.255 --> 00:24:16.202
for tens of thousands of years.
00:24:20.172 --> 00:24:24.644
And if the Americans have problems
finding a place for their nuclear waste,
00:24:24.644 --> 00:24:27.250
imagine the problems across the Atlantic.
00:24:35.326 --> 00:24:39.971
Europe's denser population and smaller
land mass have left the problem of
00:24:39.971 --> 00:24:43.025
getting rid of waste from
nuclear power stations
00:24:43.025 --> 00:24:47.860
mired in political, social,
and scientific rouse.
00:24:47.995 --> 00:24:52.410
Nowhere more so than Britain,
where a decade-long search
00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:56.069
for an underground waste dump has
collapsed in utter failure
00:24:56.069 --> 00:24:58.400
after costing half a billion dollars.
00:24:59.370 --> 00:25:02.736
(Blowers) Well in one sense, there is
some urgency, 'cause I think
00:25:02.736 --> 00:25:07.117
it would be true to say that to do nothing
is not an option at the present time
00:25:07.117 --> 00:25:09.832
because wastes are accumulating
in every country.
00:25:09.832 --> 00:25:12.054
(George) A member of the
British government's
00:25:12.054 --> 00:25:15.590
radioactive waste management committee,
Professor Andy Blowers
00:25:15.590 --> 00:25:19.428
brings a critical eye to bear
on the nation's nuclear industry.
00:25:19.798 --> 00:25:23.711
(Blowers) On the other hand, the kind of
urgency that the industry puts forward,
00:25:23.711 --> 00:25:27.128
I think, is an urgency that is backing
their own particular interests.
00:25:27.128 --> 00:25:31.742
They do need a solution to this
intractable problem of nuclear waste.
00:25:31.742 --> 00:25:35.857
If they get the solution which appears to
be acceptable, then that,
00:25:35.857 --> 00:25:38.840
to a high degree,
will underpin the future of
00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:40.837
the nuclear industry as they perceive it.
00:25:40.837 --> 00:25:43.706
(Voss) We're not motivated by providing
the opportunity for
00:25:43.706 --> 00:25:46.152
new nuclear plants in the future.
00:25:46.482 --> 00:25:50.703
We're motivated by providing a solution
to the problems that are there today.
00:25:51.793 --> 00:25:56.209
(George) And yet if you do provide a
solution to the problems that are there
00:25:56.209 --> 00:25:58.952
today, the problem of nuclear waste...
00:25:58.952 --> 00:26:00.886
(Voss) Yes...
(George) You end up do you not,
00:26:00.886 --> 00:26:03.945
justifying the continued existence
of the nuclear industry?
00:26:04.615 --> 00:26:09.379
(Voss) Under some circumstances one could
interpret that. Remember that our...
00:26:09.379 --> 00:26:13.447
(George) One suspects the nuclear industry
will interpret it exactly that way.
00:26:13.447 --> 00:26:15.544
(Voss) They can interpret it as they like.
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:37.759
[Music]
00:26:38.614 --> 00:26:42.999
(George) Behind the nuclear industry's
sense of urgency lies an enterprise
00:26:42.999 --> 00:26:46.294
situated in Britain's beautiful
Lake district in Cambria.
00:26:46.494 --> 00:26:56.144
[music]
00:26:56.194 --> 00:26:58.564
It's called Sellafield.
00:27:00.484 --> 00:27:05.774
It's owned by BNFL, British Nuclear Fuels,
one of the world's most powerful
00:27:05.774 --> 00:27:10.595
commercial nuclear conglomerates,
and it has only one shareholder :
00:27:10.595 --> 00:27:15.880
the British government, and it's
BNFL that's behind Pangea.
00:27:16.710 --> 00:27:21.589
(Bonser) BNFL have looked at a number of
different ideas and thoughts about
00:27:21.589 --> 00:27:26.735
how to deal with nuclear waste, and this
Pangea concept in my view
00:27:26.735 --> 00:27:28.474
is the strongest I've seen.
00:27:28.474 --> 00:27:32.271
It's technically extremely
well founded and
00:27:32.271 --> 00:27:36.255
has a very good and explainable
safety case.
00:27:36.465 --> 00:27:39.252
I think those things are
extremely important.
00:27:40.202 --> 00:27:47.401
Of course the real unknown is whether
that will be accepted and welcomed
00:27:47.401 --> 00:27:49.967
once it's been explained
and properly debated.
00:27:50.474 --> 00:28:13.722
[Music]
00:28:13.787 --> 00:28:18.520
(George) BNFL's got a problem.
After America, Britain has
00:28:18.520 --> 00:28:23.172
the largest stockpile of high-level
radioactive waste in the world.
00:28:23.447 --> 00:28:27.627
[Music]
00:28:27.705 --> 00:28:30.647
It sits quietly in canisters
beneath the water,
00:28:31.344 --> 00:28:34.546
cooling down for years
before it can be touched.
00:28:42.347 --> 00:28:47.612
What's more, it's not just British waste.
A big part of BNFL's business is
00:28:47.612 --> 00:28:52.039
reprocessing nuclear fuel rods from power
stations in other parts of the world.
00:28:53.919 --> 00:28:58.305
But reprocessing produces
radioactive waste, too,
00:28:58.305 --> 00:29:03.589
and BNFL's customers around the world don't
know what to do with their waste either.
00:29:04.459 --> 00:29:09.494
(Bonser) Some of those customers will
look for an international repository
00:29:09.494 --> 00:29:13.758
rather than a national repository
and so we feel that
00:29:13.758 --> 00:29:17.791
where there's a unique and potentially
very valuable solution to
00:29:17.791 --> 00:29:20.425
what is a worldwide problem
00:29:20.425 --> 00:29:23.772
that as a global nuclear company we would
wish to be involved in that.
00:29:23.922 --> 00:29:27.555
(George) So in no case would
British nuclear waste
00:29:27.555 --> 00:29:29.744
end up in a repository in Australia?
00:29:29.744 --> 00:29:32.507
(Bonser) Well of course in the
very long term, that's a
00:29:32.507 --> 00:29:36.114
matter for government policy
rather than a commercial company,
00:29:36.114 --> 00:29:39.514
and we will always work within
the UK government policy.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.631
(George) On the River Esk, a few
kilometres south of Sellafield,
00:29:45.631 --> 00:29:48.875
Martin Forwood checks radiation levels.
00:29:49.995 --> 00:29:54.628
The plant's reputation for radioactive
leaks followed by cover-ups
00:29:54.628 --> 00:29:59.148
and allegations of leukemia clusters and
pollution of the Irish Sea
00:29:59.148 --> 00:30:02.866
have spawned deep mistrust
amongst environmentalists
00:30:02.866 --> 00:30:04.629
and local opposition groups.
00:30:05.679 --> 00:30:09.564
(Forwood) They haven't changed at all.
They're still the murky
00:30:09.564 --> 00:30:12.120
deceitful company that they always were.
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.604
(Bonser) We need to build confidence,
we need to build trust.
00:30:16.604 --> 00:30:21.053
We'll accept we've made mistakes
and try to put them right.
00:30:21.053 --> 00:30:24.756
We operate in a number of different
countries on a number of different sites
00:30:24.756 --> 00:30:29.000
and we try to adopt that
open approach towards
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:30.900
what we do wherever we operate,
00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:33.792
and we would do
just the same in Australia.
00:30:36.592 --> 00:30:39.915
(George) Martin Forwood, like most
British environmentalists,
00:30:39.915 --> 00:30:44.496
believes BNFL should abandon plans
for underground dumps and
00:30:44.496 --> 00:30:49.143
be forced to keep its waste on site until
safer ways are found to deal with it.
00:30:52.143 --> 00:30:55.209
(Forwood) The industry's option which is
to push it underground,
00:30:55.209 --> 00:31:00.474
very much out-of-site, out-of-mind,
has so many flaws in it that
00:31:00.474 --> 00:31:07.297
it would be crassly wrong, I believe,
on behalf of future generations
00:31:07.297 --> 00:31:10.481
to allow that to go ahead.
The second point--
00:31:10.481 --> 00:31:14.767
I think I've already mentioned that it
would not be right, it would be immoral,
00:31:14.767 --> 00:31:19.204
in our view, to land a country--
let's say Australia,
00:31:19.204 --> 00:31:22.706
with everybody else's waste problems.
That would be wrong.
00:31:24.596 --> 00:31:29.396
(George) To London, where BNFL's woes
have not endeared it to
00:31:29.396 --> 00:31:31.280
its owner, the British government.
00:31:41.790 --> 00:31:45.174
The latest investigation into
radioactive waste--
00:31:45.174 --> 00:31:47.609
a select committee of the House of Lords--
00:31:47.609 --> 00:31:52.946
concluded last month that underground
repositories are still the best bet.
00:31:53.376 --> 00:31:59.857
(Tombs) But since it will take 24 years
even to open a deep geological disposal,
00:31:59.857 --> 00:32:03.637
you need to start now, because
procrastination is the thief of time,
00:32:03.637 --> 00:32:08.106
and that 24 years can stretch into
50, 60, sometime, never,
00:32:08.106 --> 00:32:11.108
and it's a problem of such magnitude
that it has to be tackled.
00:32:11.513 --> 00:32:16.133
(Lord Tombs) That is probably the way in
which international development of take—
00:32:16.478 --> 00:32:20.949
(George) Lord Tombs believes Britain will
have to dispose of its own waste at home,
00:32:20.949 --> 00:32:25.398
but says BNFL has every right to
explore the Pangea idea
00:32:25.398 --> 00:32:27.446
for other countries' wastes.
00:32:27.586 --> 00:32:31.641
(Tombs) Well it could well be because
there are nuclear reactors in the far east
00:32:31.641 --> 00:32:34.040
for which may provide a
market for Australia.
00:32:34.040 --> 00:32:35.763
I'm not qualified to comment on that.
00:32:35.763 --> 00:32:38.616
All I'm saying is I don't think
the UK's a very good prospect
00:32:38.616 --> 00:32:40.320
for the reasons I've outlined.
00:32:40.620 --> 00:32:42.849
(George) Do you think perhaps those
a little politically insensitive
00:32:42.849 --> 00:32:45.456
-- the government owned body in Britain...
(Tombs) ...Not at all...
00:32:45.456 --> 00:32:46.899
(George) ...Should be
investigating in Australia?
00:32:46.899 --> 00:32:50.621
(Tombs) No I would put it in a way which
may, you may not appreciate.
00:32:50.621 --> 00:32:54.021
I would say that they have enormous
expertise which Australia doesn't,
00:32:54.021 --> 00:32:58.769
and by helping Australia to develop
possibilities that they're actually
00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:00.980
helping Australia, which
I'm all in favour of.
00:33:02.330 --> 00:33:05.130
(George) Whether BNFL is doing
Australia a favour with
00:33:05.130 --> 00:33:08.096
its Pangea proposal is a moot point.
00:33:12.746 --> 00:33:17.378
Pangea's backers say a mining state
like Western Australia already has
00:33:17.378 --> 00:33:21.678
the expertise to build a port,
a railway line into the desert,
00:33:21.678 --> 00:33:24.227
and the catacomb to handle the waste.
00:33:24.227 --> 00:33:28.176
Investments that would give the state
an economic shot in the arm--
00:33:28.176 --> 00:33:31.974
a $6 billion jolt in start-up
costs alone--
00:33:31.974 --> 00:33:36.508
$200 billion to Australia over 40 years.
00:33:37.838 --> 00:33:42.038
Pangea chose one of the Liberal Party's
favoured economic modellers
00:33:42.038 --> 00:33:43.682
to assess its figures.
00:33:44.070 --> 00:33:47.856
(Voss) Access Economics has estimated
that this leads to about a
00:33:47.856 --> 00:33:52.685
1% increase in the gross domestic product
and that brings another 50,000
00:33:52.685 --> 00:33:55.529
jobs just from economic development,
economic stimulation.
00:33:55.866 --> 00:33:58.449
(Minchin) I mean you might as well
suggest that Australia take
00:33:58.449 --> 00:34:00.547
the world's prison population--
00:34:00.547 --> 00:34:02.611
you know we've got plenty of space, why
not build a great big prison
00:34:02.611 --> 00:34:04.752
in Alice Springs and take
all the world's prisoners?
00:34:04.752 --> 00:34:08.545
Well you know that's, that's ridiculous.
So is this proposal.
00:34:08.545 --> 00:34:11.177
(Lawrence) The amount of money being
talked about is mind boggling,
00:34:11.177 --> 00:34:14.310
and it might be in the future,
particularly if there are further economic
00:34:14.310 --> 00:34:16.826
problems flying out of what's
happened in Asia that some
00:34:16.826 --> 00:34:20.108
Australian government somewhere might say
"Well let's have a look at this."
00:34:20.108 --> 00:34:27.678
[People shouting]
00:34:27.678 --> 00:34:30.538
(George) Jobs and profits are one thing
00:34:30.538 --> 00:34:33.870
-- the politics of the nuclear debate
another thing entirely.
00:34:34.470 --> 00:34:41.320
[People chanting]
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:45.027
The Government's already faced with
the passions aroused by the go-aheads
00:34:45.027 --> 00:34:47.638
for the Jabiluka and Beverley
uranium mines,
00:34:48.018 --> 00:34:51.888
by its own search for a dump
for Australia's low-level and intermediate
00:34:51.888 --> 00:34:54.748
nuclear waste, and by plans for a new
00:34:54.748 --> 00:34:58.450
nuclear research reactor at Sydney's
Lucas Heights.
00:34:58.823 --> 00:35:03.368
To add Pangea to the menu would
seem cause political indigestion.
00:35:03.669 --> 00:35:04.659
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister
for Industry & Resources:
00:35:04.769 --> 00:35:08.199
Q: Is your policy determined on the
science of the matter,
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:12.400
the environmental issues of the
matter, or the simple politics of it?
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.940
A: Well it's a combination. I mean the
00:35:15.940 --> 00:35:18.256
position of the Australian
community is critical
00:35:18.256 --> 00:35:19.986
and as I say, I don't think there's
00:35:19.986 --> 00:35:23.276
any basis on which the community
is prepared to accept this.
00:35:25.646 --> 00:35:28.866
Peter George: But Pangea's
been at work on this area too.
00:35:30.248 --> 00:35:33.478
While proposals to replace the old
Lucas Heights reactor
00:35:33.478 --> 00:35:35.858
are causing controversy, Pangea believes
00:35:35.858 --> 00:35:39.388
Australian antagonism to nuclear
issues is not
00:35:39.388 --> 00:35:41.381
as deep rooted as it seems.
00:35:42.722 --> 00:35:45.432
Peter George:
Over 18 months, Pangea's spent a quarter
00:35:45.432 --> 00:35:47.473
of a million dollars on polling by the
00:35:47.473 --> 00:35:50.260
Liberal Party's own pollster Mark Textor
00:35:50.461 --> 00:35:55.701
whose report warns Pangea that most
Australians are ill-informed and afraid of
00:35:55.701 --> 00:35:56.881
nuclear issues.
00:35:57.561 --> 00:35:58.831
But crucially, the report
00:35:58.831 --> 00:36:03.325
goes on to say: "as long as people's
safety concerns can be satisfied,
00:36:03.325 --> 00:36:06.831
and we cannot over-emphasise the
importance of the magnitude
00:36:06.831 --> 00:36:07.681
of this task,
00:36:07.824 --> 00:36:11.152
People could see the benefits of a
nuclear waste dump".
00:36:12.504 --> 00:36:15.734
Jim Voss, General Manager, Pangea:
There's about 35 per cent of the
00:36:15.734 --> 00:36:20.530
populous believes that Pangea may
well be in the national interest.
00:36:21.140 --> 00:36:26.198
A very solid 25-28 per cent
are absolutely convinced
00:36:26.198 --> 00:36:28.608
that it wouldn't be in the nation's
best interest.
00:36:28.608 --> 00:36:33.761
The group in the middle are asking the
fundamental question of why?
00:36:35.420 --> 00:36:37.192
Why dispose of this material?
00:36:37.521 --> 00:36:40.261
Why now? Why Australia?
00:36:40.261 --> 00:36:41.341
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister for
Industry & Resources: I've, as you know,
00:36:41.341 --> 00:36:44.361
been involved in the professional side
of the Liberal Party for 14 years.
00:36:44.361 --> 00:36:45.961
I did a lot of polling myself.
00:36:46.266 --> 00:36:49.960
I'd have to say I know all the
tricks of the trade
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:51.462
and I know you can get any result you like
00:36:51.462 --> 00:36:53.458
depending on the way you ask the question
00:36:53.458 --> 00:36:55.659
Footage - Pangea advertisement:
"There's no safer place in the
00:36:55.659 --> 00:36:59.900
world to make the world a safer place"
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.770
Peter George:
For now, Pangea's advertising
00:37:01.770 --> 00:37:04.420
campaign is on hold; plans to start
00:37:04.420 --> 00:37:06.674
field studies this year are postponed,
00:37:07.850 --> 00:37:10.350
but with so much money behind it, Pangea
00:37:10.350 --> 00:37:14.235
and those who support it believe time
can be used to advantage.
00:37:14.235 --> 00:37:16.705
Footage -- Pangea advertisement:
"...And a kilometre under a remote dessert
00:37:16.705 --> 00:37:22.495
in Australia is a gigantic non-porous
rock that hasn't moved for millions of
00:37:22.495 --> 00:37:26.530
years... and won't for millions more."
00:37:26.370 --> 00:37:28.277
Prof. Brian Anderson, Australian National
University: I certainly believe
00:37:28.277 --> 00:37:33.877
there's a chance for the proposal to get
off the ground. I'm not sure of the time
00:37:33.877 --> 00:37:39.777
scale, but this is a problem that's going
to be with us for a very very long time
00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:46.607
and you know -- governments change
and, and politicians, Ministers change and
00:37:46.607 --> 00:37:53.723
our relationships with other countries
change so to imagine that we could
00:37:53.723 --> 00:37:57.613
continue to maintain an attitude that
we're not even going to look
00:37:57.613 --> 00:38:01.150
at the proposal -- I don't think
that's sustainable.
00:38:01.161 --> 00:38:02.828
Dr. Carmen Lawrence, MP for
Fremantle, Labor: If any illustration
00:38:02.828 --> 00:38:06.828
was needed of the fact that you can't
dispose safely of waste -- it's the Pangea
00:38:06.828 --> 00:38:12.198
proposal. I've actually learned of this
proposal in some detail. I made it my
00:38:12.198 --> 00:38:16.748
business to find out about it. They are
serious, they are well-funded...
00:38:17.380 --> 00:38:21.380
they're people who've worked around the
mining industry for a very long time and
00:38:21.380 --> 00:38:25.380
I think it would be foolish of anybody --
government or people such as me opposed to
00:38:25.380 --> 00:38:29.218
what they're proposing to underestimate
their long term commitment
00:38:29.218 --> 00:38:30.568
to this proposal.
00:38:31.682 --> 00:38:35.682
Peter George: Faced with closed doors
at a federal level, Pangea's strategy
00:38:35.682 --> 00:38:40.568
has focused on Perth, where it thinks
political opposition may be softer and
00:38:40.568 --> 00:38:42.648
divisions may exist.
00:38:44.222 --> 00:38:48.222
While no member of the West Australian
government would speak to Four Corners,
00:38:48.222 --> 00:38:52.222
Premier Richard Court recently ruled out
the Pangea proposal,
00:38:52.424 --> 00:38:58.184
though in 1994 he did support a national
dump for low and medium-level waste
00:38:58.184 --> 00:38:59.936
in the state's gold fields.
00:39:00.984 --> 00:39:06.388
Though the Resources Minister also rejects
Pangea -- the company thinks the state is
00:39:06.388 --> 00:39:09.360
nevertheless sending mixed signals.
00:39:09.317 --> 00:39:11.210
Colin Barnett (26 March 1999):
Now I can see
00:39:11.210 --> 00:39:15.725
a scenario developing in future where
countries that supply uranium will share
00:39:15.725 --> 00:39:19.795
some of the obligations for disposing of
the waste but that in the first instance
00:39:19.795 --> 00:39:23.945
is an issue for the Australian government,
and I think Australia as a signatory to the
00:39:23.945 --> 00:39:28.645
non-proliferation treaty needs to be part
of the international debate about uranium.
00:39:28.736 --> 00:39:31.466
Peter George: Are there doors open?
Is there interest?
00:39:32.611 --> 00:39:36.851
Voss: I don't think overtly there is
or there is any evidence there is not.
00:39:37.174 --> 00:39:41.940
There's a long educational process that
would have to be done before we'd be,
00:39:41.940 --> 00:39:43.306
we'd know whether there really are
doors open.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:47.935
Senator Minchin: The only way this could
advance, in fact, is if a state government
00:39:47.935 --> 00:39:54.679
um, decided that it would like to entertain
this proposition and grant the relevant
00:39:54.679 --> 00:39:58.830
state approvals for such a project
to proceed.
00:39:58.830 --> 00:40:02.830
But it's not going to go anywhere without
the Commonwealth authorising
00:40:02.830 --> 00:40:05.299
the importation of the materials.
00:40:05.881 --> 00:40:11.834
Peter George: Senator Minchin has said to
us, to Four Corners, "We will not become a
00:40:11.834 --> 00:40:14.144
dumping ground for the world's nuclear
waste."
00:40:14.144 --> 00:40:15.740
Voss: Mmm-hmm.
00:40:15.580 --> 00:40:20.320
George: Premier Court has said, "We don't want
to be the dump for other countries' waste."
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:23.680
Now those seem pretty clear policies,
don't they?
00:40:23.750 --> 00:40:24.750
Voss: Yes.
00:40:26.294 --> 00:40:29.564
George: Do you see any door open at all
under those circumstances?
00:40:30.641 --> 00:40:35.621
Voss: Taken at face value, those words
would say absolutely there's no door open.
00:40:35.975 --> 00:40:39.635
George: So why not pack up and go away
under those circumstances?
00:40:40.620 --> 00:40:46.200
Voss: It's as I said to you a moment ago, the–
if you, you have to turn this on it's ear.
00:40:46.417 --> 00:40:51.547
If they've said yes today, would it be any
more meaningful to us in the long term?
00:40:52.765 --> 00:40:58.965
If our board and our investors would
like us to move forward and to try to
00:40:58.965 --> 00:41:04.340
turn a no into a yes on a bipartisan
basis, then that's what we'll do.
00:41:04.723 --> 00:41:10.505
[This is the sedimentary basin area
that we're looking at, and we
00:41:10.505 --> 00:41:15.645
wanted to go and look in more detail at
what this terrain looks like in particular]
00:41:15.645 --> 00:41:18.777
Peter George: Ten days ago, Pangea
representatives from Britain and the
00:41:18.777 --> 00:41:24.670
United States flew in to Melbourne for a
two-day strategy meeting, while last week
00:41:24.670 --> 00:41:30.315
in Perth, Pangea hosted a dozen Australian
and international scientists for a first
00:41:30.315 --> 00:41:33.555
private meeting of its scientific
review board.
00:41:33.881 --> 00:41:35.771
Peter George: So how much more money,
00:41:35.771 --> 00:41:38.722
how much more time are you prepared
to put into this before you actually have
00:41:38.722 --> 00:41:39.811
to make a decision?
00:41:39.811 --> 00:41:41.671
Voss: Well first up that's not
my decision,
00:41:41.671 --> 00:41:43.991
that's, that's the decision of the
board of directors.
00:41:43.991 --> 00:41:47.141
George: Mmm, but you speak for Pangea,
you must know what the view is?
00:41:47.141 --> 00:41:52.231
Voss: In the broader sense the, sometime
during this calendar year there will be
00:41:52.231 --> 00:41:57.100
a decision as to what course of action
to take next, which country,
00:41:57.100 --> 00:41:59.541
which course, which strategy.
00:42:00.538 --> 00:42:06.618
(Pentz) In terms of predictability from one
place to another, do we got any more feel
00:42:06.618 --> 00:42:10.193
from that, and some of these particular
areas you've started to look at?
00:42:10.393 --> 00:42:15.329
(George) Pangea's strategy has brought
about its own undoing, opening it to the
00:42:15.329 --> 00:42:20.359
same accusations of secrecy that has
dogged the nuclear industry from birth.
00:42:21.801 --> 00:42:27.830
But succeed or fail, it's an uncomfortable
reminder that Australia is, after all,
00:42:27.830 --> 00:42:30.238
a part of the nuclear world
and its problems.
00:42:30.842 --> 00:42:36.600
(Pentz): At the present moment Australia
provides a significant quantity of uranium
00:42:36.600 --> 00:42:41.450
to the world. If, in fact, there is a
repository, it's kind of like...
00:42:43.311 --> 00:42:49.436
womb to tomb. So to say that Australia
is not a nuclear power
00:42:49.436 --> 00:42:54.724
state is correct, right, but it is in the
nuclear fuel cycle.
00:42:54.992 --> 00:43:00.152
(Minchin): It does not then follow that
Australia is required to receive back
00:43:00.152 --> 00:43:05.212
all that waste material, and I really do
think countries have to take a very
00:43:05.212 --> 00:43:10.586
responsible approach when they enter
into the business of generating their
00:43:10.586 --> 00:43:12.250
electricity by nuclear power.
00:43:12.325 --> 00:43:15.275
(Lawrence): Australia is putting itself,
I think, in a difficult position by
00:43:15.275 --> 00:43:19.275
continuing to expand the nuclear industry
by, as the current government is doing,
00:43:19.275 --> 00:43:21.800
expanding the mining of uranium in
this country.
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:25.357
We are in a sense placing ourselves
in some position of obligation
00:43:25.357 --> 00:43:27.247
to the disposal of those wastes.
00:43:34.593 --> 00:43:40.828
Peter George: If it fails in Australia,
Pangea says it'll turn its focus to Argentina.
00:43:42.481 --> 00:43:47.901
But it's the unique combination of geology,
political stability and international
00:43:47.901 --> 00:43:51.471
credentials that first brought Pangea to
Australia.
00:43:52.451 --> 00:43:55.781
Credentials which have put Australia
in the nuclear limelight and
00:43:55.781 --> 00:44:01.524
will continue to do so as concern about
nuclear waste and nuclear disarmament
00:44:01.524 --> 00:44:03.477
grows into the next century.
00:44:03.477 --> 00:44:39.217
[dramatic jazz music]