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[dramatic music]
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Deep beneath the West Australian outback
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lies the germ of an idea.
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A dream about
making the world a safer place
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that's gone beyond just the dreaming.
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(man) "We have a very specific goal,
dispose of nuclear wastes,
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pull out the nuclear weapons
and get them out of the way."
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Jim Voss envisages a catacomb
500 metres beneath his feet
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that would keep safe forever
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one of the most toxic poisons
known to humankind.
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(Voss) "Australia has the opportunity
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to use its democratic forces
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to say this is something
we should be doing for the world.
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[alarm blaring]
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For half a century,
the problem of nuclear waste disposal
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has dogged the world,
and one company called Pangea,
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backed by big money and influence,
wants to bury it in Australia.
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You'll find a great deal
of enthusiasm in the United States,
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and I suspect around the world.
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They have backing from incredible people
within government and industry.
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(ad) To make the world a safer place
for the people we love...
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Tonight, Four Corners
goes inside the company called Pangea.
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We examine a scheme
that's provoked accusations of secrecy
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and back-door influence peddling,
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a scheme that forces Australia
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to confront its role
in the nuclear world.
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(ad) Australia will make
our world a safer place
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We're not interested in nuclear power
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and we're not interested in being
the world's nuclear waste dump.
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♪ (music) ♪
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(Voss) We're just headed out
here into the desert.
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(man) What you're looking for,
of course
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is the most remote areas
you can find, right?"
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(Voss) Well, in part.
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The geology is far more important
than the remoteness.
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Pangea's Jim Voss
and scientist Charles McCombie
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took Four Corners on the long trip
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from Perth, 340 kilometres
north east of Kalgoorlie,
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to the edge of the Great Victoria Desert.
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(McCombie) The flatness, even more
important than how it looks on the surface
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if you look out at the horizon
it's all very flat.
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This is one of the flattest areas
in the world and that's a real key issue
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to the– what we call a high isolation site
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(helicopter blades whirring)
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Latitude 28 south, longitude 123 east.
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(whirring continues)
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Out in this area
the size of Western Europe
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lies a patch of ground
20 kilometres square
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that they believe could house
a repository for up to 20 percent
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of the world's nuclear waste.
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Out here you find pangea rock --
very old, very stable --
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the geology from which
the company gets its name.
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(McCombie) And in the basin area
and where we're on the edge now,
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it's 300 to 800 million years
of quiet build-up of sediments.
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So this is one of the most
stable geological areas
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that you'll find in the world.
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But it's not just science.
Politics are just as crucial
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in dealing with radioactive waste
and nuclear disarmament
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and that's what makes Australia
more attractive than Argentina,
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Namibia, and China,
where pangea rock is also found.
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(Voss) Well, it's the political stability
that we're concerned about.
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Australia's tradition
in democratic principles,
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Australia's environmental activism
is vital to us. Australia's role
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in the international community
for disarmament for all sorts of weapons
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nuclear, land mines, chemical weapons,
very important facets to us for Australia
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Behind Pangea stand
three international organisations.
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The huge British government-owned
nuclear conglomerate, BNFL
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British Nuclear Fuels Limited,
which owns 80 percent
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a Canadian company
called Golder Associates
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world experts in toxic waste management
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and Nagra, a Swiss organisation
responsible for finding
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a nuclear waste dump
for Switzerland's nuclear industry.
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(advertisement) The simple fact
is that more than 30 countries
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use nuclear power.
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Pangea originally planned
to launch its scheme on Australians
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last month, with a 9 million dollar
war chest for advertising and promoting
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a scheme it knew would meet
an incredulous public
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and skeptical politicians.
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Those plans fell apart in December
last year, when the British arm
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of Friends Of The Earth
got hold of the video
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Pangea prepared for the launch
and sent it to Australia.
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(Pangea promotional video) Above all,
Pangea will provide the world
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with a safe solution
to the disposal of nuclear materials.
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(man) Oh, it arrived in
an unmarked brown envelope
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on my desk, and I had no idea
where it came from. I felt that this
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should not be sprung on Australians in a
kind of hole-in-the-wall secret underhand way
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but they should learn as soon as possible
what was being planned for them.
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(Pangea promotional video)
Before any responsible country
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would send their waste for disposal,
they must be certain
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not only that the respository is safe,
but also that its safety must be seen
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to be clearly and rigorously regulated.
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(Voss) We were of course, disappointed.
It was our intention to roll Pangea out
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in a very public and planned manner,
to give everybody an opportunity to debate.
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(woman) "My question is to
Senator Minchin, Minister for Resources -"
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The response to the video was immediate.
Opponents were appalled
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at the idea of a nuclear dumping ground.
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(woman) " ... Will he rule out completely
any involvement of his government
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in setting up an international nuclear
waste repository in Australia?"
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The Federal Government
moved to distance itself.
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(Senator Minchin) "And the Government
has absolutely no intention of accepting
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the radioactive waste of other countries.
The policy is clear - "
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In the following months,
the Industry and Resources Minister's line
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has hardened.
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(Senator Minchin) "There may be
other countries that
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in far less fortuitous
economic circumstances than Australia
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that do decide they want to accept
international nuclear waste.
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Well that's their business,
and that may be one way
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in which those countries
with a waste problem deal with it.
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But Australia won't be that nation
that accepts the waste."
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But Pangea's plans for the outback
are a reminder of Australia's part
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in the nuclear world:
an exporter of uranium,
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part of the American nuclear umbrella
and a leading advocate of disarmament.
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What Pangea is doing
is putting together a growing network
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of international
and Australian businessmen,
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scientists and policy makers who believe
that Australia should also have a role
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to play in resolving one of the
nuclear age's most pressing problems:
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what to do with the stockpiles
of nuclear waste
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that have been growing now
for half a century.
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It's a debate they say
that Australia has to have
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one that can't be dodged forever,
and one upon which Australians themselves
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will eventually have to take a stand.
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(indistinct lecturing)
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Amongst those who believe Australia
should play a role is the president
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of the Australian Academy of Science
who's personally backing Pangea
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and will sit on
its scientific review panel.
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(professor) "I think it is important
that they engage the Australian public
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and engage the Australian public's
representatives, namely the politicians
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so that the politicians get
as clear a view as it's possible to get
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of what the proposal's really about.
The existence of nuclear waste
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is a world problem and Australia
in this respect is part of the world
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and if we can help reduce that danger
by putting that particular problem to bed
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that is great."
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(Jenkins) "This industry thinking that
it can solve its problems by shifting them
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to some remote place,
and also onto future generations
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and that makes one quietly angry."
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♪ (ominous music) ♪
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The creeping poison of nuclear waste
began with the advent of the nuclear age
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more than half a century ago,
but it took three decades
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before governments
began to take it seriously.
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In 1943, the 2,000 citizens of Hanford
and neighbouring Bluff Cliffs
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in the northwest US state of Washington
got 30 days notice to move out
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when the top-secret Manhattan Program
to build the first atomic bomb
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got underway.
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They never came back.
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Fifty-six years later, what's left behind
is abandoned, no longer top secret
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but still deadly.
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1,400 square kilometres
of poisoned land, a wilderness
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of dumped nuclear waste
from the reactors
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that produced plutonium
for bombs and warheads
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fodder for 30 years of cold war.
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(construction machinery)
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The detritus lies scattered and buried.
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(more machinery)
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A clean-up's underway,
but it'll take 50 years
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at a cost of five and a half
million dollars every single day.
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David Pentz first came to Hanford
in the '80s at the behest
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of the American government.
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A specialist in waste disposal,
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Pentz spent three years investigating
whether the contaminated site
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might become the world's first permanent
dump for highly radioactive waste.
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It didn't work,
because the geology
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proved too complex,
and it's not yet worked
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anywhere else in the world.
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(Pentz) "I think total costs, probably
we've spent in the world today,
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is certainly in excess of $20 billion,
and we obviously don't have a repository
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licenced repository,
anywhere in the world."
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Pentz went home to Seattle,
but the idea of a disposal site
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deep underground did not go away.
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He nagged at the problem
and it nagged at him.
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Pentz was chairman of Golder Associates,
the industrial waste experts
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and under its umbrella in March 1997,
he set up Pangea Resources Limited.
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(Pentz) "We see ourselves as an ambassador
of a problem, a world problem,
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and we think Australia should
at least talk about it and consider it
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in a rational sense
because of, that we at least,
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and I think you will find
others in the world
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believe that Australia
has an incredible opportunity
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to help the world,
and if you want to call that
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as being good neighbourly, so be it.
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To me it's, uh, good neighbourly
doesn't put enough dimension
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on the challenge that the world faces.
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From modest offices
in the high-tech part of Seattle
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that is home to Microsoft,
Pentz is working to ensure
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the idea doesn't die.
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(woman) "Mr. Pentz, I have Australia
and the UK on the line
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- for the conference call."
- "Thank you very much."
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(Pentz) "I could say our tactics
are absolutely a disaster, unequivocally.
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I would say however our tactics
were not of our own making, right?"
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(George) "So in retrospect, the secrecy
with which you've cloaked your proposal
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has been a mistake?"
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"Yes I think that, and some people,
and I have questioned myself
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whether that was right."
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(George) "Because one of the great
criticisms of the whole nuclear industry
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and all the, in it's history,
has always been its secrecy, hasn't it?"
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"Absolutely, and that's tied
both sides of the nuclear industry.
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Obviously on the weapons side
and even on the commercial side.
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I couldn't agree with you more."
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- (man) "Hello, David."
- (Pentz) "Well hi, Jim! Welcome aboard!"
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Pentz still runs about 60 people
around the world, some half of them
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contracted on a part-time basis.
Amongst them, Ralph Stoll
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a former US nuclear submarine commander.
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(Stoll) "It looks like, there's a reason
to go to Washington next week,
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to follow up with some of these ideas."
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In Australia, Jim Voss is looking
for new ways to open doors for Pangea.
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(Voss on phone) "The Pangea papers were
right where we wanted them, that is
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presenting where we stand
in our feasibility studies."
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(Pentz) "Yeah."
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There's no shortage of funds.
Pangea had a $40 million budget this year
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but much of it won't now get spent
because the political heat in Australia
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has delayed plans for exploration
in Western Australia.
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(George) "So if the government is saying,
no, it's against our policy
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why pursue it?
Why not just go away?"
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(Pentz) "Because the idea
of an international repository
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and the benefits
it will bring the world is real.
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We think we have begun to see how we
could put the genie back into the bottle
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and, you know, ideas
of this size ...
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don't go away."
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♪ (music) ♪
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From Seattle, Pentz and Stoll
are on the move across the continent.
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"I have, I think received
a very good response
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both in and outside of the government
to the concept that Pangea represents."
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♪ (solemn music) ♪
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"I wonder if these ...
kinds will work with Pangea."
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In the 18 months since
Ralph Stoll's first visit to Washington
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Pangea's briefed officials
in the US State Department, the Pentagon
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00:16:19,463 --> 00:16:23,336
the Department of Energy,
and presidential advisers
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in two powerful arms of American security,
the National Security Council
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and the National Security Agency.
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And to reach the administration's
highest political levels, Pangea's hired
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a big-hitter lobbyist, the man slated
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to run Vice President Al Gore's
presidential campaign next year.
231
00:16:44,934 --> 00:16:48,003
And Pangea's struck a chord
that shifts its focus
232
00:16:48,003 --> 00:16:49,714
from a commercial venture,
233
00:16:49,714 --> 00:16:52,852
to play to America's
strategic preoccupation
234
00:16:52,852 --> 00:16:56,137
with growing stockpiles
of nuclear warheads.
235
00:16:57,028 --> 00:16:59,867
"The world has a serious problem
with nuclear waste.
236
00:16:59,867 --> 00:17:05,314
There are thousands and thousands
of tons of it, and thousands of tons more
237
00:17:05,314 --> 00:17:11,780
coming on-line each year, so to speak,
as well as many thousands of tons
238
00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:16,078
that are derivative
from former nuclear weapons programs,
239
00:17:16,078 --> 00:17:22,388
and these have to be stored
safely and securely for thousands of years
240
00:17:22,388 --> 00:17:24,922
and the world simply doesn't
have a solution to this
241
00:17:24,922 --> 00:17:28,739
and as long as this waste
is stored in an imperfect fashion
242
00:17:28,739 --> 00:17:32,489
which it is now, virtually everywhere,
it represents something of a threat."
243
00:17:33,199 --> 00:17:36,302
Until the end of last year,
Jan Lodal was responsible
244
00:17:36,302 --> 00:17:38,671
for running nuclear policy
for the Pentagon.
245
00:17:39,301 --> 00:17:43,318
"I think that the American government
is likely to be very attracted
246
00:17:43,318 --> 00:17:49,000
to the possibility of such a site,
and it will also see the attractiveness
247
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,856
of Australia's location."
248
00:17:52,706 --> 00:17:58,330
At Washington's Georgetown University,
Pangea has another influential ally
249
00:17:58,330 --> 00:18:02,546
in President Clinton's special adviser
for disarmament, who's concerned
250
00:18:02,546 --> 00:18:06,475
about bombs or the raw material
falling into the hands
251
00:18:06,475 --> 00:18:08,705
of rogue states and terrorist groups.
252
00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:12,037
"In the United States,
we are very concerned
253
00:18:12,037 --> 00:18:15,500
about what is generally called
in the literature the loose nuke problem.
254
00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:18,489
We are working with the Russians
in a very cooperative way,
255
00:18:18,489 --> 00:18:23,222
but still there are hundreds of tons,
when it only takes a few kilograms
256
00:18:23,222 --> 00:18:26,337
to make a bomb, there are hundreds
of tons of this material
257
00:18:26,337 --> 00:18:30,330
inadequately protected.
That's what we wanna take care of too.
258
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,417
♪ (western music) ♪
259
00:18:34,417 --> 00:18:40,218
♪ On the trail you'll find me lopin',
while the spaces are wide open ♪
260
00:18:40,218 --> 00:18:45,191
♪ in the land of the old AEC, yee-hoo ♪
261
00:18:45,191 --> 00:18:51,216
♪ why, the cedar is attractive,
and the air is radioactive ♪
262
00:18:51,216 --> 00:18:54,908
♪ oh, the Wild West is
where I want to be ♪
263
00:18:55,958 --> 00:19:01,576
♪ 'mid the sagebrush and the cactus
I'll watch the fellas practice ♪
264
00:19:01,576 --> 00:19:06,899
♪ droppin' bombs through
the clean desert breeze, ah-ha ♪
265
00:19:06,899 --> 00:19:12,369
(bomb explosion)
266
00:19:14,999 --> 00:19:18,102
If nuclear disarmament
was the peace dividend
267
00:19:18,102 --> 00:19:21,217
from the end of the Cold War,
then the problem of dealing
268
00:19:21,217 --> 00:19:25,045
with today's unwanted nuclear bombs
is the peace headache.
269
00:19:28,115 --> 00:19:31,052
In pursuit of superiority
over the Russians,
270
00:19:31,052 --> 00:19:35,913
America detonated 928 bombs
at the Nevada test site,
271
00:19:35,913 --> 00:19:38,272
a hundred of them above ground.
272
00:19:39,163 --> 00:19:43,982
The tests took 40 years to conduct,
but the combined time
273
00:19:43,982 --> 00:19:48,300
for all those explosions
amounts to a mere 60 seconds
274
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,882
a minute of the most destructive power
created by humankind.
275
00:19:53,412 --> 00:20:15,225
(explosions, wind, breaking glass, planes)
276
00:20:18,717 --> 00:20:24,237
The Cold War legacy is
100,000 nuclear warheads around the world.
277
00:20:25,307 --> 00:20:30,349
Disarmament talks call
for a reduction to 4,000 in 10 years.
278
00:20:31,355 --> 00:20:34,019
Pangea reckons
it can help disarmament
279
00:20:34,019 --> 00:20:37,018
by burying plutonium
from decommissioned warheads
280
00:20:37,318 --> 00:20:41,101
a claim questioned by critics
who say nothing in the plans
281
00:20:41,101 --> 00:20:43,557
ensure it can never be retrieved.
282
00:20:44,336 --> 00:20:46,981
"They cloak it as
a nuclear non proliferation
283
00:20:46,981 --> 00:20:50,083
and arms control proposal,
but when you look at the fine print
284
00:20:50,083 --> 00:20:53,508
it really is, at this point in time
at least, a bail-out
285
00:20:53,928 --> 00:20:57,384
for the nuclear industry and
for the plutonium industry in particular."
286
00:20:57,610 --> 00:21:01,076
"These need not be inconsistent at all.
287
00:21:01,076 --> 00:21:04,171
So I think that
it is a commercial enterprise
288
00:21:04,171 --> 00:21:07,138
but the potential for
a very positive impact
289
00:21:07,138 --> 00:21:09,850
on international security is very real."
290
00:21:09,462 --> 00:21:12,411
"That's the rhetoric.
That's the broad brush
291
00:21:12,552 --> 00:21:19,350
but the fine strokes indicate
that this spent fuel
292
00:21:19,307 --> 00:21:23,670
will be put underground
on a retrievable basis
293
00:21:23,670 --> 00:21:25,975
so that countries
that want to get it out, can."
294
00:21:26,145 --> 00:21:30,100
"The fact that there may be
retrievability doesn't bother me
295
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:33,166
provided, of course,
the retrievability is
296
00:21:33,166 --> 00:21:36,147
something that were very easily
monitored and prevented
297
00:21:36,147 --> 00:21:38,747
if the international community
wished to prevent it
298
00:21:38,747 --> 00:21:40,759
and if you had
a remote site in Australia,
299
00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:42,318
I think you could assure that."
300
00:21:50,558 --> 00:21:53,451
Fifty kilometres from
the Nevada test site
301
00:21:53,577 --> 00:21:58,049
lies Yucca Mountain,
and a stark reminder that America
302
00:21:58,049 --> 00:22:00,934
like the rest of the world,
has a growing problem
303
00:22:00,934 --> 00:22:02,382
with commercial waste.
304
00:22:02,852 --> 00:22:06,954
10,000 tons is created globally each year.
305
00:22:07,957 --> 00:22:11,495
"The alternative is the stuff
right now sitting in swimming pools
306
00:22:11,495 --> 00:22:14,878
and the basement of power plants
in metropolitan areas.
307
00:22:15,608 --> 00:22:18,145
What's that going to do
to our future generations?
308
00:22:18,145 --> 00:22:20,392
We can't make this stuff go away."
309
00:22:20,392 --> 00:22:26,174
Like Pangea, Jim Niggemeyer believes
the answer lies beneath his feet.
310
00:22:26,174 --> 00:22:29,606
(Niggemeyer) So for me,
this I think is safe for
311
00:22:29,606 --> 00:22:33,672
hundreds of thousands of years.
I don't see any other alternative
312
00:22:33,672 --> 00:22:36,055
that gets us beyond tens of years.
313
00:22:38,185 --> 00:22:42,783
(George) Fifteen kilometres of tunnel
lie inside Yucca Mountain.
314
00:22:43,236 --> 00:22:47,402
It represents America's
and the world's best bet yet
315
00:22:47,402 --> 00:22:51,519
for a nuclear waste dump.
But it's not a good bet at all.
316
00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:54,651
(Niggemeyer) And you'll notice
as we go down
317
00:22:54,651 --> 00:22:58,696
you'll see uh, ties of fairly heavy steel
around the tunnel.
318
00:22:58,696 --> 00:23:03,480
That's to hold up the rock and
give us general support.
319
00:23:04,410 --> 00:23:09,611
(George) The Yucca Mountain project's
cost the US $10 billion so far
320
00:23:09,611 --> 00:23:13,171
and it will be at least two years
before the US government
321
00:23:13,171 --> 00:23:15,634
decides whether it's safe to go ahead.
322
00:23:16,613 --> 00:23:20,841
The people of Nevada have already
decided: they don't want it.
323
00:23:21,361 --> 00:23:24,871
But they know they're up against
powerful nuclear interests.
324
00:23:25,535 --> 00:23:31,585
(Reid) They do it in a number of ways.
One is through fear and the distribution
325
00:23:31,585 --> 00:23:34,520
of bad information, false information.
326
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:37,995
What they do is say
we need to get it outta here,
327
00:23:37,995 --> 00:23:39,767
and then everybody here'll be safe.
328
00:23:39,797 --> 00:23:42,967
And so that's the game they've played,
and they've done a good job.
329
00:23:42,967 --> 00:23:47,313
They have done a good job with
their government relations work
330
00:23:47,313 --> 00:23:54,812
here in Washington, they've got
the best lobbyists money can buy. (laughs)
331
00:23:56,442 --> 00:23:59,259
(George) If the nuclear industry
does get its way,
332
00:23:59,259 --> 00:24:04,192
this is what an underground
nuclear repository would look like.
333
00:24:04,192 --> 00:24:08,972
Kilometres of tunnels containing
steel and concrete canisters,
334
00:24:08,972 --> 00:24:14,255
radiating heat for hundreds of years;
their contents deadly
335
00:24:14,255 --> 00:24:16,202
for tens of thousands of years.
336
00:24:20,172 --> 00:24:24,644
And if the Americans have problems
finding a place for their nuclear waste,
337
00:24:24,644 --> 00:24:27,250
imagine the problems across the Atlantic.
338
00:24:35,326 --> 00:24:39,971
Europe's denser population and smaller
land mass have left the problem of
339
00:24:39,971 --> 00:24:43,025
getting rid of waste from
nuclear power stations
340
00:24:43,025 --> 00:24:47,860
mired in political, social,
and scientific rouse.
341
00:24:47,995 --> 00:24:52,410
Nowhere more so than Britain,
where a decade-long search
342
00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:56,069
for an underground waste dump has
collapsed in utter failure
343
00:24:56,069 --> 00:24:58,400
after costing half a billion dollars.
344
00:24:59,370 --> 00:25:02,736
(Blowers) Well in one sense, there is
some urgency, 'cause I think
345
00:25:02,736 --> 00:25:07,117
it would be true to say that to do nothing
is not an option at the present time
346
00:25:07,117 --> 00:25:09,832
because wastes are accumulating
in every country.
347
00:25:09,832 --> 00:25:12,054
(George) A member of the
British government's
348
00:25:12,054 --> 00:25:15,590
radioactive waste management committee,
Professor Andy Blowers
349
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:19,428
brings a critical eye to bear
on the nation's nuclear industry.
350
00:25:19,798 --> 00:25:23,711
(Blowers) On the other hand, the kind of
urgency that the industry puts forward,
351
00:25:23,711 --> 00:25:27,128
I think, is an urgency that is backing
their own particular interests.
352
00:25:27,128 --> 00:25:31,742
They do need a solution to this
intractable problem of nuclear waste.
353
00:25:31,742 --> 00:25:35,857
If they get the solution which appears to
be acceptable, then that,
354
00:25:35,857 --> 00:25:38,840
to a high degree,
will underpin the future of
355
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,837
the nuclear industry as they perceive it.
356
00:25:40,837 --> 00:25:43,706
(Voss) We're not motivated by providing
the opportunity for
357
00:25:43,706 --> 00:25:46,152
new nuclear plants in the future.
358
00:25:46,482 --> 00:25:50,703
We're motivated by providing a solution
to the problems that are there today.
359
00:25:51,793 --> 00:25:56,209
(George) And yet if you do provide a
solution to the problems that are there
360
00:25:56,209 --> 00:25:58,952
today, the problem of nuclear waste...
361
00:25:58,952 --> 00:26:00,886
(Voss) Yes...
(George) You end up do you not,
362
00:26:00,886 --> 00:26:03,945
justifying the continued existence
of the nuclear industry?
363
00:26:04,615 --> 00:26:09,379
(Voss) Under some circumstances one could
interpret that. Remember that our...
364
00:26:09,379 --> 00:26:13,447
(George) One suspects the nuclear industry
will interpret it exactly that way.
365
00:26:13,447 --> 00:26:15,544
(Voss) They can interpret it as they like.
366
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:37,759
[Music]
367
00:26:38,614 --> 00:26:42,999
(George) Behind the nuclear industry's
sense of urgency lies an enterprise
368
00:26:42,999 --> 00:26:46,294
situated in Britain's beautiful
Lake district in Cambria.
369
00:26:46,494 --> 00:26:56,144
[music]
370
00:26:56,194 --> 00:26:58,564
It's called Sellafield.
371
00:27:00,484 --> 00:27:05,774
It's owned by BNFL, British Nuclear Fuels,
one of the world's most powerful
372
00:27:05,774 --> 00:27:10,595
commercial nuclear conglomerates,
and it has only one shareholder :
373
00:27:10,595 --> 00:27:15,880
the British government, and it's
BNFL that's behind Pangea.
374
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:21,589
(Bonser) BNFL have looked at a number of
different ideas and thoughts about
375
00:27:21,589 --> 00:27:26,735
how to deal with nuclear waste, and this
Pangea concept in my view
376
00:27:26,735 --> 00:27:28,474
is the strongest I've seen.
377
00:27:28,474 --> 00:27:32,271
It's technically extremely
well founded and
378
00:27:32,271 --> 00:27:36,255
has a very good and explainable
safety case.
379
00:27:36,465 --> 00:27:39,252
I think those things are
extremely important.
380
00:27:40,202 --> 00:27:47,401
Of course the real unknown is whether
that will be accepted and welcomed
381
00:27:47,401 --> 00:27:49,967
once it's been explained
and properly debated.
382
00:27:50,474 --> 00:28:13,722
[Music]
383
00:28:13,787 --> 00:28:18,520
(George) BNFL's got a problem.
After America, Britain has
384
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,172
the largest stockpile of high-level
radioactive waste in the world.
385
00:28:23,447 --> 00:28:27,627
[Music]
386
00:28:27,705 --> 00:28:30,647
It sits quietly in canisters
beneath the water,
387
00:28:31,344 --> 00:28:34,546
cooling down for years
before it can be touched.
388
00:28:42,347 --> 00:28:47,612
What's more, it's not just British waste.
A big part of BNFL's business is
389
00:28:47,612 --> 00:28:52,039
reprocessing nuclear fuel rods from power
stations in other parts of the world.
390
00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:58,305
But reprocessing produces
radioactive waste, too,
391
00:28:58,305 --> 00:29:03,589
and BNFL's customers around the world don't
know what to do with their waste either.
392
00:29:04,459 --> 00:29:09,494
(Bonser) Some of those customers will
look for an international repository
393
00:29:09,494 --> 00:29:13,758
rather than a national repository
and so we feel that
394
00:29:13,758 --> 00:29:17,791
where there's a unique and potentially
very valuable solution to
395
00:29:17,791 --> 00:29:20,425
what is a worldwide problem
396
00:29:20,425 --> 00:29:23,772
that as a global nuclear company we would
wish to be involved in that.
397
00:29:23,922 --> 00:29:27,555
(George) So in no case would
British nuclear waste
398
00:29:27,555 --> 00:29:29,744
end up in a repository in Australia?
399
00:29:29,744 --> 00:29:32,507
(Bonser) Well of course in the
very long term, that's a
400
00:29:32,507 --> 00:29:36,114
matter for government policy
rather than a commercial company,
401
00:29:36,114 --> 00:29:39,514
and we will always work within
the UK government policy.
402
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,631
(George) On the River Esk, a few
kilometres south of Sellafield,
403
00:29:45,631 --> 00:29:48,875
Martin Forwood checks radiation levels.
404
00:29:49,995 --> 00:29:54,628
The plant's reputation for radioactive
leaks followed by cover-ups
405
00:29:54,628 --> 00:29:59,148
and allegations of leukemia clusters and
pollution of the Irish Sea
406
00:29:59,148 --> 00:30:02,866
have spawned deep mistrust
amongst environmentalists
407
00:30:02,866 --> 00:30:04,629
and local opposition groups.
408
00:30:05,679 --> 00:30:09,564
(Forwood) They haven't changed at all.
They're still the murky
409
00:30:09,564 --> 00:30:12,120
deceitful company that they always were.
410
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,604
(Bonser) We need to build confidence,
we need to build trust.
411
00:30:16,604 --> 00:30:21,053
We'll accept we've made mistakes
and try to put them right.
412
00:30:21,053 --> 00:30:24,756
We operate in a number of different
countries on a number of different sites
413
00:30:24,756 --> 00:30:29,000
and we try to adopt that
open approach towards
414
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,900
what we do wherever we operate,
415
00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:33,792
and we would do
just the same in Australia.
416
00:30:36,592 --> 00:30:39,915
(George) Martin Forwood, like most
British environmentalists,
417
00:30:39,915 --> 00:30:44,496
believes BNFL should abandon plans
for underground dumps and
418
00:30:44,496 --> 00:30:49,143
be forced to keep its waste on site until
safer ways are found to deal with it.
419
00:30:52,143 --> 00:30:55,209
(Forwood) The industry's option which is
to push it underground,
420
00:30:55,209 --> 00:31:00,474
very much out-of-site, out-of-mind,
has so many flaws in it that
421
00:31:00,474 --> 00:31:07,297
it would be crassly wrong, I believe,
on behalf of future generations
422
00:31:07,297 --> 00:31:10,481
to allow that to go ahead.
The second point--
423
00:31:10,481 --> 00:31:14,767
I think I've already mentioned that it
would not be right, it would be immoral,
424
00:31:14,767 --> 00:31:19,204
in our view, to land a country--
let's say Australia,
425
00:31:19,204 --> 00:31:22,706
with everybody else's waste problems.
That would be wrong.
426
00:31:24,596 --> 00:31:29,396
(George) To London, where BNFL's woes
have not endeared it to
427
00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:31,280
its owner, the British government.
428
00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:45,174
The latest investigation into
radioactive waste--
429
00:31:45,174 --> 00:31:47,609
a select committee of the House of Lords--
430
00:31:47,609 --> 00:31:52,946
concluded last month that underground
repositories are still the best bet.
431
00:31:53,376 --> 00:31:59,857
(Tombs) But since it will take 24 years
even to open a deep geological disposal,
432
00:31:59,857 --> 00:32:03,637
you need to start now, because
procrastination is the thief of time,
433
00:32:03,637 --> 00:32:08,106
and that 24 years can stretch into
50, 60, sometime, never,
434
00:32:08,106 --> 00:32:11,108
and it's a problem of such magnitude
that it has to be tackled.
435
00:32:11,513 --> 00:32:16,133
(Lord Tombs) That is probably the way in
which international development of take—
436
00:32:16,478 --> 00:32:20,949
(George) Lord Tombs believes Britain will
have to dispose of its own waste at home,
437
00:32:20,949 --> 00:32:25,398
but says BNFL has every right to
explore the Pangea idea
438
00:32:25,398 --> 00:32:27,446
for other countries' wastes.
439
00:32:27,586 --> 00:32:31,641
(Tombs) Well it could well be because
there are nuclear reactors in the far east
440
00:32:31,641 --> 00:32:34,040
for which may provide a
market for Australia.
441
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,763
I'm not qualified to comment on that.
442
00:32:35,763 --> 00:32:38,616
All I'm saying is I don't think
the UK's a very good prospect
443
00:32:38,616 --> 00:32:40,320
for the reasons I've outlined.
444
00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:42,849
(George) Do you think perhaps those
a little politically insensitive
445
00:32:42,849 --> 00:32:45,456
-- the government owned body in Britain...
(Tombs) ...Not at all...
446
00:32:45,456 --> 00:32:46,899
(George) ...Should be
investigating in Australia?
447
00:32:46,899 --> 00:32:50,621
(Tombs) No I would put it in a way which
may, you may not appreciate.
448
00:32:50,621 --> 00:32:54,021
I would say that they have enormous
expertise which Australia doesn't,
449
00:32:54,021 --> 00:32:58,769
and by helping Australia to develop
possibilities that they're actually
450
00:32:58,769 --> 00:33:00,980
helping Australia, which
I'm all in favour of.
451
00:33:02,330 --> 00:33:05,130
(George) Whether BNFL is doing
Australia a favour with
452
00:33:05,130 --> 00:33:08,096
its Pangea proposal is a moot point.
453
00:33:12,746 --> 00:33:17,378
Pangea's backers say a mining state
like Western Australia already has
454
00:33:17,378 --> 00:33:21,678
the expertise to build a port,
a railway line into the desert,
455
00:33:21,678 --> 00:33:24,227
and the catacomb to handle the waste.
456
00:33:24,227 --> 00:33:28,176
Investments that would give the state
an economic shot in the arm--
457
00:33:28,176 --> 00:33:31,974
a $6 billion jolt in start-up
costs alone--
458
00:33:31,974 --> 00:33:36,508
$200 billion to Australia over 40 years.
459
00:33:37,838 --> 00:33:42,038
Pangea chose one of the Liberal Party's
favoured economic modellers
460
00:33:42,038 --> 00:33:43,682
to assess its figures.
461
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:47,856
(Voss) Access Economics has estimated
that this leads to about a
462
00:33:47,856 --> 00:33:52,685
1% increase in the gross domestic product
and that brings another 50,000
463
00:33:52,685 --> 00:33:55,529
jobs just from economic development,
economic stimulation.
464
00:33:55,866 --> 00:33:58,449
(Minchin) I mean you might as well
suggest that Australia take
465
00:33:58,449 --> 00:34:00,547
the world's prison population--
466
00:34:00,547 --> 00:34:02,611
you know we've got plenty of space, why
not build a great big prison
467
00:34:02,611 --> 00:34:04,752
in Alice Springs and take
all the world's prisoners?
468
00:34:04,752 --> 00:34:08,545
Well you know that's, that's ridiculous.
So is this proposal.
469
00:34:08,545 --> 00:34:11,177
(Lawrence) The amount of money being
talked about is mind boggling,
470
00:34:11,177 --> 00:34:14,310
and it might be in the future,
particularly if there are further economic
471
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:16,826
problems flying out of what's
happened in Asia that some
472
00:34:16,826 --> 00:34:20,108
Australian government somewhere might say
"Well let's have a look at this."
473
00:34:20,108 --> 00:34:27,678
[People shouting]
474
00:34:27,678 --> 00:34:30,538
(George) Jobs and profits are one thing
475
00:34:30,538 --> 00:34:33,870
-- the politics of the nuclear debate
another thing entirely.
476
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:41,320
[People chanting]
477
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,027
The Government's already faced with
the passions aroused by the go-aheads
478
00:34:45,027 --> 00:34:47,638
for the Jabiluka and Beverley
uranium mines,
479
00:34:48,018 --> 00:34:51,888
by its own search for a dump
for Australia's low-level and intermediate
480
00:34:51,888 --> 00:34:54,748
nuclear waste, and by plans for a new
481
00:34:54,748 --> 00:34:58,450
nuclear research reactor at Sydney's
Lucas Heights.
482
00:34:58,823 --> 00:35:03,368
To add Pangea to the menu would
seem cause political indigestion.
483
00:35:03,669 --> 00:35:04,659
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister
for Industry & Resources:
484
00:35:04,769 --> 00:35:08,199
Q: Is your policy determined on the
science of the matter,
485
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:12,400
the environmental issues of the
matter, or the simple politics of it?
486
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,940
A: Well it's a combination. I mean the
487
00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:18,256
position of the Australian
community is critical
488
00:35:18,256 --> 00:35:19,986
and as I say, I don't think there's
489
00:35:19,986 --> 00:35:23,276
any basis on which the community
is prepared to accept this.
490
00:35:25,646 --> 00:35:28,866
Peter George: But Pangea's
been at work on this area too.
491
00:35:30,248 --> 00:35:33,478
While proposals to replace the old
Lucas Heights reactor
492
00:35:33,478 --> 00:35:35,858
are causing controversy, Pangea believes
493
00:35:35,858 --> 00:35:39,388
Australian antagonism to nuclear
issues is not
494
00:35:39,388 --> 00:35:41,381
as deep rooted as it seems.
495
00:35:42,722 --> 00:35:45,432
Peter George:
Over 18 months, Pangea's spent a quarter
496
00:35:45,432 --> 00:35:47,473
of a million dollars on polling by the
497
00:35:47,473 --> 00:35:50,260
Liberal Party's own pollster Mark Textor
498
00:35:50,461 --> 00:35:55,701
whose report warns Pangea that most
Australians are ill-informed and afraid of
499
00:35:55,701 --> 00:35:56,881
nuclear issues.
500
00:35:57,561 --> 00:35:58,831
But crucially, the report
501
00:35:58,831 --> 00:36:03,325
goes on to say: "as long as people's
safety concerns can be satisfied,
502
00:36:03,325 --> 00:36:06,831
and we cannot over-emphasise the
importance of the magnitude
503
00:36:06,831 --> 00:36:07,681
of this task,
504
00:36:07,824 --> 00:36:11,152
People could see the benefits of a
nuclear waste dump".
505
00:36:12,504 --> 00:36:15,734
Jim Voss, General Manager, Pangea:
There's about 35 per cent of the
506
00:36:15,734 --> 00:36:20,530
populous believes that Pangea may
well be in the national interest.
507
00:36:21,140 --> 00:36:26,198
A very solid 25-28 per cent
are absolutely convinced
508
00:36:26,198 --> 00:36:28,608
that it wouldn't be in the nation's
best interest.
509
00:36:28,608 --> 00:36:33,761
The group in the middle are asking the
fundamental question of why?
510
00:36:35,420 --> 00:36:37,192
Why dispose of this material?
511
00:36:37,521 --> 00:36:40,261
Why now? Why Australia?
512
00:36:40,261 --> 00:36:41,341
Senator Nick Minchin, Minister for
Industry & Resources: I've, as you know,
513
00:36:41,341 --> 00:36:44,361
been involved in the professional side
of the Liberal Party for 14 years.
514
00:36:44,361 --> 00:36:45,961
I did a lot of polling myself.
515
00:36:46,266 --> 00:36:49,960
I'd have to say I know all the
tricks of the trade
516
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,462
and I know you can get any result you like
517
00:36:51,462 --> 00:36:53,458
depending on the way you ask the question
518
00:36:53,458 --> 00:36:55,659
Footage - Pangea advertisement:
"There's no safer place in the
519
00:36:55,659 --> 00:36:59,900
world to make the world a safer place"
520
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,770
Peter George:
For now, Pangea's advertising
521
00:37:01,770 --> 00:37:04,420
campaign is on hold; plans to start
522
00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:06,674
field studies this year are postponed,
523
00:37:07,850 --> 00:37:10,350
but with so much money behind it, Pangea
524
00:37:10,350 --> 00:37:14,235
and those who support it believe time
can be used to advantage.
525
00:37:14,235 --> 00:37:16,705
Footage -- Pangea advertisement:
"...And a kilometre under a remote dessert
526
00:37:16,705 --> 00:37:22,495
in Australia is a gigantic non-porous
rock that hasn't moved for millions of
527
00:37:22,495 --> 00:37:26,530
years... and won't for millions more."
528
00:37:26,370 --> 00:37:28,277
Prof. Brian Anderson, Australian National
University: I certainly believe
529
00:37:28,277 --> 00:37:33,877
there's a chance for the proposal to get
off the ground. I'm not sure of the time
530
00:37:33,877 --> 00:37:39,777
scale, but this is a problem that's going
to be with us for a very very long time
531
00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:46,607
and you know -- governments change
and, and politicians, Ministers change and
532
00:37:46,607 --> 00:37:53,723
our relationships with other countries
change so to imagine that we could
533
00:37:53,723 --> 00:37:57,613
continue to maintain an attitude that
we're not even going to look
534
00:37:57,613 --> 00:38:01,150
at the proposal -- I don't think
that's sustainable.
535
00:38:01,161 --> 00:38:02,828
Dr. Carmen Lawrence, MP for
Fremantle, Labor: If any illustration
536
00:38:02,828 --> 00:38:06,828
was needed of the fact that you can't
dispose safely of waste -- it's the Pangea
537
00:38:06,828 --> 00:38:12,198
proposal. I've actually learned of this
proposal in some detail. I made it my
538
00:38:12,198 --> 00:38:16,748
business to find out about it. They are
serious, they are well-funded...
539
00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:21,380
they're people who've worked around the
mining industry for a very long time and
540
00:38:21,380 --> 00:38:25,380
I think it would be foolish of anybody --
government or people such as me opposed to
541
00:38:25,380 --> 00:38:29,218
what they're proposing to underestimate
their long term commitment
542
00:38:29,218 --> 00:38:30,568
to this proposal.
543
00:38:31,682 --> 00:38:35,682
Peter George: Faced with closed doors
at a federal level, Pangea's strategy
544
00:38:35,682 --> 00:38:40,568
has focused on Perth, where it thinks
political opposition may be softer and
545
00:38:40,568 --> 00:38:42,648
divisions may exist.
546
00:38:44,222 --> 00:38:48,222
While no member of the West Australian
government would speak to Four Corners,
547
00:38:48,222 --> 00:38:52,222
Premier Richard Court recently ruled out
the Pangea proposal,
548
00:38:52,424 --> 00:38:58,184
though in 1994 he did support a national
dump for low and medium-level waste
549
00:38:58,184 --> 00:38:59,936
in the state's gold fields.
550
00:39:00,984 --> 00:39:06,388
Though the Resources Minister also rejects
Pangea -- the company thinks the state is
551
00:39:06,388 --> 00:39:09,360
nevertheless sending mixed signals.
552
00:39:09,317 --> 00:39:11,210
Colin Barnett (26 March 1999):
Now I can see
553
00:39:11,210 --> 00:39:15,725
a scenario developing in future where
countries that supply uranium will share
554
00:39:15,725 --> 00:39:19,795
some of the obligations for disposing of
the waste but that in the first instance
555
00:39:19,795 --> 00:39:23,945
is an issue for the Australian government,
and I think Australia as a signatory to the
556
00:39:23,945 --> 00:39:28,645
non-proliferation treaty needs to be part
of the international debate about uranium.
557
00:39:28,736 --> 00:39:31,466
Peter George: Are there doors open?
Is there interest?
558
00:39:32,611 --> 00:39:36,851
Voss: I don't think overtly there is
or there is any evidence there is not.
559
00:39:37,174 --> 00:39:41,940
There's a long educational process that
would have to be done before we'd be,
560
00:39:41,940 --> 00:39:43,306
we'd know whether there really are
doors open.
561
00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:47,935
Senator Minchin: The only way this could
advance, in fact, is if a state government
562
00:39:47,935 --> 00:39:54,679
um, decided that it would like to entertain
this proposition and grant the relevant
563
00:39:54,679 --> 00:39:58,830
state approvals for such a project
to proceed.
564
00:39:58,830 --> 00:40:02,830
But it's not going to go anywhere without
the Commonwealth authorising
565
00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:05,299
the importation of the materials.
566
00:40:05,881 --> 00:40:11,834
Peter George: Senator Minchin has said to
us, to Four Corners, "We will not become a
567
00:40:11,834 --> 00:40:14,144
dumping ground for the world's nuclear
waste."
568
00:40:14,144 --> 00:40:15,740
Voss: Mmm-hmm.
569
00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:20,320
George: Premier Court has said, "We don't want
to be the dump for other countries' waste."
570
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,680
Now those seem pretty clear policies,
don't they?
571
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:24,750
Voss: Yes.
572
00:40:26,294 --> 00:40:29,564
George: Do you see any door open at all
under those circumstances?
573
00:40:30,641 --> 00:40:35,621
Voss: Taken at face value, those words
would say absolutely there's no door open.
574
00:40:35,975 --> 00:40:39,635
George: So why not pack up and go away
under those circumstances?
575
00:40:40,620 --> 00:40:46,200
Voss: It's as I said to you a moment ago, the–
if you, you have to turn this on it's ear.
576
00:40:46,417 --> 00:40:51,547
If they've said yes today, would it be any
more meaningful to us in the long term?
577
00:40:52,765 --> 00:40:58,965
If our board and our investors would
like us to move forward and to try to
578
00:40:58,965 --> 00:41:04,340
turn a no into a yes on a bipartisan
basis, then that's what we'll do.
579
00:41:04,723 --> 00:41:10,505
[This is the sedimentary basin area
that we're looking at, and we
580
00:41:10,505 --> 00:41:15,645
wanted to go and look in more detail at
what this terrain looks like in particular]
581
00:41:15,645 --> 00:41:18,777
Peter George: Ten days ago, Pangea
representatives from Britain and the
582
00:41:18,777 --> 00:41:24,670
United States flew in to Melbourne for a
two-day strategy meeting, while last week
583
00:41:24,670 --> 00:41:30,315
in Perth, Pangea hosted a dozen Australian
and international scientists for a first
584
00:41:30,315 --> 00:41:33,555
private meeting of its scientific
review board.
585
00:41:33,881 --> 00:41:35,771
Peter George: So how much more money,
586
00:41:35,771 --> 00:41:38,722
how much more time are you prepared
to put into this before you actually have
587
00:41:38,722 --> 00:41:39,811
to make a decision?
588
00:41:39,811 --> 00:41:41,671
Voss: Well first up that's not
my decision,
589
00:41:41,671 --> 00:41:43,991
that's, that's the decision of the
board of directors.
590
00:41:43,991 --> 00:41:47,141
George: Mmm, but you speak for Pangea,
you must know what the view is?
591
00:41:47,141 --> 00:41:52,231
Voss: In the broader sense the, sometime
during this calendar year there will be
592
00:41:52,231 --> 00:41:57,100
a decision as to what course of action
to take next, which country,
593
00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:59,541
which course, which strategy.
594
00:42:00,538 --> 00:42:06,618
(Pentz) In terms of predictability from one
place to another, do we got any more feel
595
00:42:06,618 --> 00:42:10,193
from that, and some of these particular
areas you've started to look at?
596
00:42:10,393 --> 00:42:15,329
(George) Pangea's strategy has brought
about its own undoing, opening it to the
597
00:42:15,329 --> 00:42:20,359
same accusations of secrecy that has
dogged the nuclear industry from birth.
598
00:42:21,801 --> 00:42:27,830
But succeed or fail, it's an uncomfortable
reminder that Australia is, after all,
599
00:42:27,830 --> 00:42:30,238
a part of the nuclear world
and its problems.
600
00:42:30,842 --> 00:42:36,600
(Pentz): At the present moment Australia
provides a significant quantity of uranium
601
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,450
to the world. If, in fact, there is a
repository, it's kind of like...
602
00:42:43,311 --> 00:42:49,436
womb to tomb. So to say that Australia
is not a nuclear power
603
00:42:49,436 --> 00:42:54,724
state is correct, right, but it is in the
nuclear fuel cycle.
604
00:42:54,992 --> 00:43:00,152
(Minchin): It does not then follow that
Australia is required to receive back
605
00:43:00,152 --> 00:43:05,212
all that waste material, and I really do
think countries have to take a very
606
00:43:05,212 --> 00:43:10,586
responsible approach when they enter
into the business of generating their
607
00:43:10,586 --> 00:43:12,250
electricity by nuclear power.
608
00:43:12,325 --> 00:43:15,275
(Lawrence): Australia is putting itself,
I think, in a difficult position by
609
00:43:15,275 --> 00:43:19,275
continuing to expand the nuclear industry
by, as the current government is doing,
610
00:43:19,275 --> 00:43:21,800
expanding the mining of uranium in
this country.
611
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,357
We are in a sense placing ourselves
in some position of obligation
612
00:43:25,357 --> 00:43:27,247
to the disposal of those wastes.
613
00:43:34,593 --> 00:43:40,828
Peter George: If it fails in Australia,
Pangea says it'll turn its focus to Argentina.
614
00:43:42,481 --> 00:43:47,901
But it's the unique combination of geology,
political stability and international
615
00:43:47,901 --> 00:43:51,471
credentials that first brought Pangea to
Australia.
616
00:43:52,451 --> 00:43:55,781
Credentials which have put Australia
in the nuclear limelight and
617
00:43:55,781 --> 00:44:01,524
will continue to do so as concern about
nuclear waste and nuclear disarmament
618
00:44:01,524 --> 00:44:03,477
grows into the next century.
619
00:44:03,477 --> 00:44:39,217
[dramatic jazz music]