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I want to talk a little bit today
about labor and work.

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When we think about how people work,

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the naive intuition we have

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is that people are like rats in a maze --

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that all people care about is money,

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and the moment we give them money,

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we can direct them to work one way,

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we can direct them to work another way.

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This is why we give bonuses to bankers
and pay in all kinds of ways.

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And we really have
this incredibly simplistic view

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of why people work, and what
the labor market looks like.

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At the same time, if you think about it,

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there's all kinds of strange behaviors
in the world around us.

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Think about something like mountaineering
and mountain climbing.

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If you read books of people
who climb mountains, difficult mountains,

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do you think that those books are full
of moments of joy and happiness?

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No, they are full of misery.

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In fact, it's all about frostbite
and having difficulty walking,

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and difficulty breathing --

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cold, challenging circumstances.

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And if people were just trying
to be happy,

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the moment they would get to the top,

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they would say,
"This was a terrible mistake.

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I'll never do it again."

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(Laughter)

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"Instead, let me sit on a beach
somewhere drinking mojitos."

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But instead, people go down,

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and after they recover, they go up again.

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And if you think about
mountain climbing as an example,

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it suggests all kinds of things.

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It suggests that we care
about reaching the end, a peak.

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It suggests that we care
about the fight, about the challenge.

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It suggests that there's all kinds
of other things that motivate us

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to work or behave in all kinds of ways.

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And for me personally,
I started thinking about this

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after a student came to visit me.

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This was one of my students
from a few years earlier,

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and he came one day back to campus.

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And he told me the following story:

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He said that for more than two weeks,

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he was working
on a PowerPoint presentation.

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He was working in a big bank,

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and this was in preparation
for a merger and acquisition.

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And he was working very hard
on this presentation --

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graphs, tables, information.

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He stayed late at night every day.

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And the day before it was due,

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he sent his PowerPoint
presentation to his boss,

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and his boss wrote him back and said,

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"Nice presentation,
but the merger is canceled."

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And the guy was deeply depressed.

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Now at the moment when he was working,

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he was actually quite happy.

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Every night he was enjoying his work,

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he was staying late, he was perfecting
this PowerPoint presentation.

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But knowing that nobody would ever
watch it made him quite depressed.

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So I started thinking
about how do we experiment

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with this idea of the fruits of our labor.

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And to start with, we created
a little experiment

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in which we gave people Legos,

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and we asked them to build with Legos.

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And for some people,
we gave them Legos and we said,

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"Hey, would you like to build
this Bionicle for three dollars?

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We'll pay you three dollars for it."

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And people said yes,
and they built with these Legos.

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And when they finished, we took it,
we put it under the table,

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and we said, "Would you like
to build another one,

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this time for $2.70?"

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If they said yes,
we gave them another one,

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and when they finished, we asked them,

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"Do you want to build another one?"
for $2.40, $2.10, and so on,

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until at some point people said,

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"No more. It's not worth it for me."

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This was what we called
the meaningful condition.

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People built one Bionicle after another.

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After they finished every one of them,

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we put them under the table.

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And we told them that at the end
of the experiment,

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we will take all these Bionicles,
we will disassemble them,

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we will put them back in the boxes,

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and we will use it
for the next participant.

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There was another condition.

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This other condition was inspired
by David, my student.

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And this other condition we called
the Sisyphic condition.

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And if you remember
the story about Sisyphus,

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Sisyphus was punished by the gods
to push the same rock up a hill,

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and when he almost got to the end,

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the rock would roll over,
and he would have to start again.

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And you can think about this
as the essence of doing futile work.

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You can imagine that if he pushed
the rock on different hills,

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at least he would have
some sense of progress.

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Also, if you look at prison movies,

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sometimes the way that the guards
torture the prisoners

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is to get them to dig a hole,
and when the prisoner is finished,

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they ask him to fill the hole
back up and then dig again.

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There's something
about this cyclical version

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of doing something over and over and over

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that seems to be
particularly demotivating.

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So in the second condition
of this experiment,

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that's exactly what we did.

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We asked people,

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"Would you like to build
one Bionicle for three dollars?"

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And if they said yes, they built it.

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Then we asked them, "Do you want
to build another one for $2.70?"

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And if they said yes,
we gave them a new one,

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and as they were building it,

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we took apart the one
that they just finished.

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And when they finished that,

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we said, "Would you like
to build another one,

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this time for 30 cents less?"

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And if they said yes,

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we gave them the one
that they built and we broke.

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So this was an endless cycle
of them building,

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and us destroying in front of their eyes.

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Now what happens when you compare
these two conditions?

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The first thing that happened was
that people built many more Bionicles --

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eleven in the meaningful condition,

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versus seven in the Sisyphus condition.

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And by the way, we should point out
that this was not big meaning.

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People were not curing cancer
or building bridges.

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People were building
Bionicles for a few cents.

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And not only that, everybody knew

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that the Bionicles
would be destroyed quite soon.

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So there was not a real
opportunity for big meaning.

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But even the small meaning
made a difference.

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Now we had another version
of this experiment.

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In this other version of the experiment,

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we didn't put people in this situation,

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we just described to them the situation,

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much as I am describing to you now,

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and we asked them to predict
what the result would be.

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What happened?

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People predicted the right direction
but not the right magnitude.

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People who were just given
the description of the experiment

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said that in the meaningful condition,

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people would probably build
one more Bionicle.

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So people understand
that meaning is important,

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they just don't understand
the magnitude of the importance,

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the extent to which it's important.

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There was one other piece
of data we looked at.

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If you think about it, there are
some people who love Legos,

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and some people who don't.

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And you would speculate
that the people who love Legos

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would build more Legos,
even for less money,

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because after all,
they get more internal joy from it.

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And the people who love Legos less
would build less Legos

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because the enjoyment
that they derive from it is lower.

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And that's actually what we found
in the meaningful condition.

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There was a very nice correlation
between the love of Legos

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and the amount of Legos people built.

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What happened in the Sisyphic condition?

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In that condition,
the correlation was zero --

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there was no relationship
between the love of Legos,

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and how much people built,

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which suggests to me
that with this manipulation

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of breaking things
in front of people's eyes,

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we basically crushed any joy
that they could get out of this activity.

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We basically eliminated it.

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Soon after I finished
running this experiment,

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I went to talk to a big
software company in Seattle.

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I can't tell you who they were,
but they were a big company in Seattle.

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This was a group
within the software company

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that was put in a different building,

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and they asked them to innovate,

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and create the next big product
for this company.

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And the week before I showed up,

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the CEO of this big software company
went to that group, 200 engineers,

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and canceled the project.

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And I stood there in front of 200

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of the most depressed
people I've ever talked to.

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And I described to them
some of these Lego experiments,

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and they said they felt like they had
just been through that experiment.

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And I asked them, I said,

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"How many of you now show up
to work later than you used to?"

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And everybody raised their hand.

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I said, "How many of you now go home
earlier than you used to?"

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Everybody raised their hand.

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I asked them, "How many of you now add

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not-so-kosher things
to your expense reports?"

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And they didn't raise their hands,

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but they took me out to dinner

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and showed me what they could do
with expense reports.

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And then I asked them, I said,

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"What could the CEO have done
to make you not as depressed?"

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And they came up with all kinds of ideas.

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They said the CEO could have asked
them to present to the whole company

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about their journey
over the last two years

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and what they decided to do.

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He could have asked them to think
about which aspect of their technology

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could fit with other parts
of the organization.

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He could have asked them to build
some next-generation prototypes,

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and see how they would work.

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But the thing is that any one of those
would require some effort and motivation.

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And I think the CEO basically did not
understand the importance of meaning.

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If the CEO, just like our participants,

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thought the essence
of meaning is unimportant,

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then he [wouldn't] care.

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And he would say, "At the moment
I directed you in this way,

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and now that I'm directing
you in this way,

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everything will be okay."

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But if you understood
how important meaning is,

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then you would figure out
that it's actually important

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to spend some time, energy and effort

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in getting people to care more
about what they're doing.

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The next experiment
was slightly different.

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We took a sheet of paper
with random letters,

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and we asked people
to find pairs of letters

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that were identical next to each other.

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That was the task.

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People did the first sheet,

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then we asked if they wanted to do
another for a little less money,

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the next sheet for a little bit
less, and so on and so forth.

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And we had three conditions.

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In the first condition, people
wrote their name on the sheet,

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found all the pairs of letters,

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gave it to the experimenter,

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the experimenter would look at it,

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scan it from top to bottom,

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say "Uh huh," and put it
on the pile next to them.

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In the second condition,
people did not write their name on it.

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The experimenter looked at it,

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took the sheet of paper,
did not look at it, did not scan it,

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and simply put it on the pile of pages.

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So you take a piece,
you just put it on the side.

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In the third condition,

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the experimenter got the sheet of paper,

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and put it directly into a shredder.

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(Laughter)

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What happened in those three conditions?

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In this plot I'm showing you
at what pay rate people stopped.

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So low numbers mean
that people worked harder.

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They worked for much longer.

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In the acknowledged condition,

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people worked all the way
down to 15 cents.

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At 15 cents per page,

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they basically stopped these efforts.

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In the shredder condition, it was twice
as much -- 30 cents per sheet.

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And this is basically
the result we had before.

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You shred people's efforts, output --

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you get them not to be as happy
with what they're doing.

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But I should point out, by the way,

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that in the shredder condition,
people could have cheated.

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They could have done not so good work,

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because they realized
people were just shredding it.

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00:11:25,522 --> 00:11:27,609
So maybe the first sheet
you'd do good work,

246
00:11:27,633 --> 00:11:29,768
but then you see nobody
is really testing it,

247
00:11:29,792 --> 00:11:31,705
so you would do more and more and more.

248
00:11:31,729 --> 00:11:33,569
So in fact, in the shredder condition,

249
00:11:33,593 --> 00:11:36,427
people could have submitted more work
and gotten more money,

250
00:11:36,451 --> 00:11:37,831
and put less effort into it.

251
00:11:38,471 --> 00:11:40,416
But what about the ignored condition?

252
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,170
Would the ignored condition
be more like the acknowledged

253
00:11:43,194 --> 00:11:46,113
or more like the shredder,
or somewhere in the middle?

254
00:11:46,137 --> 00:11:48,561
It turns out it was
almost like the shredder.

255
00:11:49,473 --> 00:11:52,141
Now there's good news and bad news here.

256
00:11:52,917 --> 00:11:56,980
The bad news is that ignoring
the performance of people

257
00:11:57,004 --> 00:12:01,276
is almost as bad as shredding
their effort in front of their eyes.

258
00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:04,649
Ignoring gets you a whole way out there.

259
00:12:05,213 --> 00:12:09,522
The good news is that by simply looking
at something that somebody has done,

260
00:12:09,546 --> 00:12:11,539
scanning it and saying "Uh huh,"

261
00:12:11,563 --> 00:12:13,149
that seems to be quite sufficient

262
00:12:13,173 --> 00:12:15,942
to dramatically improve
people's motivations.

263
00:12:16,585 --> 00:12:19,365
So the good news is that adding motivation

264
00:12:19,389 --> 00:12:21,888
doesn't seem to be so difficult.

265
00:12:21,912 --> 00:12:24,066
The bad news is
that eliminating motivations

266
00:12:24,090 --> 00:12:25,841
seems to be incredibly easy,

267
00:12:25,865 --> 00:12:29,657
and if we don't think about it
carefully, we might overdo it.

268
00:12:29,681 --> 00:12:33,092
So this is all in terms
of negative motivation,

269
00:12:33,116 --> 00:12:35,450
or eliminating negative motivation.

270
00:12:36,426 --> 00:12:39,905
The next part I want to show you
is something about positive motivation.

271
00:12:40,473 --> 00:12:44,160
So there is a store
in the U.S. called IKEA.

272
00:12:44,970 --> 00:12:49,175
And IKEA is a store
with kind of okay furniture

273
00:12:49,199 --> 00:12:51,183
that takes a long time to assemble.

274
00:12:51,667 --> 00:12:53,316
(Laughter)

275
00:12:53,714 --> 00:12:54,866
I don't know about you,

276
00:12:54,890 --> 00:12:56,763
but every time I assemble one of those,

277
00:12:56,787 --> 00:12:59,128
it takes me much longer,
it's much more effortful,

278
00:12:59,152 --> 00:13:02,517
it's much more confusing,
I put things in the wrong way --

279
00:13:03,186 --> 00:13:05,766
I can't say I enjoy those pieces.

280
00:13:06,175 --> 00:13:08,473
I can't say I enjoy the process.

281
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,676
But when I finish it,

282
00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:12,818
I seem to like those
IKEA pieces of furniture

283
00:13:12,842 --> 00:13:14,694
more than I like other ones.

284
00:13:14,718 --> 00:13:15,774
(Laughter)

285
00:13:15,798 --> 00:13:19,151
And there's an old story about cake mixes.

286
00:13:19,758 --> 00:13:22,985
So when they started
cake mixes in the '40s,

287
00:13:23,009 --> 00:13:26,465
they would take this powder
and they would put it in a box,

288
00:13:26,489 --> 00:13:29,530
and they would ask housewives
to basically pour it in,

289
00:13:29,554 --> 00:13:31,276
stir some water in it,

290
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:35,562
mix it, put it in the oven,
and -- voila -- you had cake.

291
00:13:35,586 --> 00:13:37,615
But it turns out they were very unpopular.

292
00:13:37,639 --> 00:13:39,450
People did not want them,

293
00:13:39,474 --> 00:13:41,999
and they thought about
all kinds of reasons for that.

294
00:13:42,023 --> 00:13:43,432
Maybe the taste was not good?

295
00:13:43,456 --> 00:13:44,632
No, the taste was great.

296
00:13:44,656 --> 00:13:49,656
What they figured out was
that there was not enough effort involved.

297
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:53,057
It was so easy that nobody
could serve cake to their guests

298
00:13:53,081 --> 00:13:55,365
and say, "Here is my cake."

299
00:13:55,389 --> 00:13:58,965
No, it was somebody else's cake,
as if you bought it in the store.

300
00:13:58,989 --> 00:14:01,232
It didn't really feel like your own.

301
00:14:01,574 --> 00:14:03,019
So what did they do?

302
00:14:03,043 --> 00:14:06,289
They took the eggs and the milk
out of the powder.

303
00:14:06,313 --> 00:14:08,039
(Laughter)

304
00:14:08,063 --> 00:14:11,880
Now you had to break
the eggs and add them,

305
00:14:11,904 --> 00:14:15,060
you had to measure the milk
and add it, mixing it.

306
00:14:15,084 --> 00:14:17,917
Now it was your cake.
Now everything was fine.

307
00:14:17,941 --> 00:14:20,305
(Laughter)

308
00:14:20,329 --> 00:14:27,251
(Applause)

309
00:14:27,904 --> 00:14:30,133
Now, I think a little bit
like the IKEA effect,

310
00:14:30,157 --> 00:14:31,785
by getting people to work harder,

311
00:14:31,809 --> 00:14:34,222
they actually got them to love
what they're doing

312
00:14:34,246 --> 00:14:35,762
to a higher degree.

313
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:38,586
So how do we look at this
question experimentally?

314
00:14:39,046 --> 00:14:41,199
We asked people to build some origami.

315
00:14:41,223 --> 00:14:43,976
We gave them instructions
on how to create origami,

316
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,738
and we gave them a sheet of paper.

317
00:14:45,762 --> 00:14:47,580
And these were all novices,

318
00:14:47,604 --> 00:14:50,158
and they built something
that was really quite ugly --

319
00:14:50,182 --> 00:14:52,317
nothing like a frog or a crane.

320
00:14:53,086 --> 00:14:56,127
But then we told them,
"Look, this origami really belongs to us.

321
00:14:56,151 --> 00:14:59,175
You worked for us, but I'll tell
you what, we'll sell it to you.

322
00:14:59,199 --> 00:15:01,203
How much do you want to pay for it?"

323
00:15:01,610 --> 00:15:04,286
And we measured how much
they were willing to pay for it.

324
00:15:04,310 --> 00:15:06,118
And we had two types of people:

325
00:15:06,142 --> 00:15:08,086
We had the people who built it,

326
00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:09,889
and the people who did not build it,

327
00:15:09,913 --> 00:15:12,713
and just looked at it
as external observers.

328
00:15:13,173 --> 00:15:15,404
And what we found
was that the builders thought

329
00:15:15,428 --> 00:15:18,056
that these were beautiful
pieces of origami --

330
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,342
(Laughter)

331
00:15:19,366 --> 00:15:21,857
and they were willing to pay
five times more for them

332
00:15:21,881 --> 00:15:24,485
than the people who just
evaluated them externally.

333
00:15:24,890 --> 00:15:27,918
Now you could say --
if you were a builder,

334
00:15:27,942 --> 00:15:31,110
do you think [you'd say],
"Oh, I love this origami,

335
00:15:31,134 --> 00:15:33,728
but I know that nobody
else would love it?"

336
00:15:34,474 --> 00:15:39,868
Or "I love this origami,
and everybody else will love it as well?"

337
00:15:39,892 --> 00:15:42,273
Which one of those two is correct?

338
00:15:42,297 --> 00:15:45,749
Turns out the builders
not only loved the origami more,

339
00:15:45,773 --> 00:15:49,077
they thought that everybody
would see the world in their view.

340
00:15:49,101 --> 00:15:51,793
They thought everybody else
would love it more as well.

341
00:15:52,451 --> 00:15:54,889
In the next version,
we tried to do the IKEA effect.

342
00:15:54,913 --> 00:15:56,777
We tried to make it more difficult.

343
00:15:57,126 --> 00:15:59,754
So for some people, we gave the same task.

344
00:15:59,778 --> 00:16:03,636
For some people, we made it harder
by hiding the instructions.

345
00:16:04,001 --> 00:16:06,383
At the top of the sheet,
we had little diagrams

346
00:16:06,407 --> 00:16:08,366
of how you fold origami.

347
00:16:08,390 --> 00:16:10,719
For some people, we just eliminated that.

348
00:16:11,151 --> 00:16:12,484
So now this was tougher.

349
00:16:12,867 --> 00:16:14,024
What happened?

350
00:16:14,048 --> 00:16:16,095
Well in an objective way,

351
00:16:16,119 --> 00:16:19,585
the origami now was uglier,
it was more difficult.

352
00:16:20,064 --> 00:16:23,071
Now when we looked at the easy
origami, we saw the same thing --

353
00:16:23,095 --> 00:16:26,317
builders loved it more,
evaluators loved it less.

354
00:16:26,341 --> 00:16:28,500
When you looked at the hard instructions,

355
00:16:28,524 --> 00:16:31,222
the effect was larger.

356
00:16:31,246 --> 00:16:32,398
Why?

357
00:16:32,422 --> 00:16:35,492
Because now the builders
loved it even more.

358
00:16:35,516 --> 00:16:36,722
(Laughter)

359
00:16:36,746 --> 00:16:38,902
They put all this extra effort into it.

360
00:16:39,352 --> 00:16:41,188
And evaluators?

361
00:16:41,212 --> 00:16:42,839
They loved it even less.

362
00:16:42,863 --> 00:16:46,712
Because in reality, it was even uglier
than the first version.

363
00:16:46,736 --> 00:16:48,077
(Laughter)

364
00:16:48,101 --> 00:16:52,073
Of course, this tells you something
about how we evaluate things.

365
00:16:52,835 --> 00:16:54,414
Now think about kids.

366
00:16:55,216 --> 00:16:58,323
Imagine I asked you, "How much
would you sell your kids for?"

367
00:16:59,748 --> 00:17:01,756
Your memories and associations and so on.

368
00:17:01,780 --> 00:17:04,419
Most people would say
for a lot, a lot of money.

369
00:17:04,443 --> 00:17:05,607
(Laughter)

370
00:17:05,631 --> 00:17:07,015
On good days.

371
00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:08,279
(Laughter)

372
00:17:08,303 --> 00:17:10,208
But imagine this was slightly different.

373
00:17:10,232 --> 00:17:12,042
Imagine if you did not have your kids.

374
00:17:12,066 --> 00:17:14,801
And one day you went to the park
and you met some kids.

375
00:17:14,825 --> 00:17:16,307
They were just like your kids,

376
00:17:16,331 --> 00:17:18,349
and you played with them for a few hours,

377
00:17:18,373 --> 00:17:21,722
and when you were about to leave,
the parents said, "Hey, by the way,

378
00:17:21,746 --> 00:17:24,729
just before you leave,
if you're interested, they're for sale."

379
00:17:24,753 --> 00:17:26,859
(Laughter)

380
00:17:26,883 --> 00:17:29,113
How much would you pay for them now?

381
00:17:29,803 --> 00:17:31,900
Most people say not that much.

382
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:36,719
And this is because our kids
are so valuable,

383
00:17:36,743 --> 00:17:38,873
not just because of who they are,

384
00:17:38,897 --> 00:17:40,508
but because of us,

385
00:17:40,532 --> 00:17:42,692
because they are so connected to us,

386
00:17:42,716 --> 00:17:45,287
and because of the time and connection.

387
00:17:45,311 --> 00:17:48,218
By the way, if you think
IKEA instructions are not good,

388
00:17:48,242 --> 00:17:51,630
what about the instructions that come
with kids, those are really tough.

389
00:17:51,654 --> 00:17:52,662
(Laughter)

390
00:17:52,686 --> 00:17:56,928
By the way, these are my kids, which,
of course, are wonderful and so on.

391
00:17:56,952 --> 00:17:58,876
Which comes to tell you one more thing,

392
00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:01,350
which is, much like our builders,

393
00:18:01,374 --> 00:18:05,215
when they look at the creature
of their creation,

394
00:18:05,239 --> 00:18:08,503
we don't see that other people
don't see things our way.

395
00:18:10,463 --> 00:18:12,297
Let me say one last comment.

396
00:18:13,162 --> 00:18:16,955
If you think about Adam Smith
versus Karl Marx,

397
00:18:16,979 --> 00:18:20,194
Adam Smith had a very important
notion of efficiency.

398
00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:22,892
He gave an example of a pin factory.

399
00:18:23,464 --> 00:18:26,421
He said pins have 12 different steps,

400
00:18:26,445 --> 00:18:30,350
and if one person does all 12 steps,
production is very low.

401
00:18:30,818 --> 00:18:32,946
But if you get one person to do step one,

402
00:18:32,970 --> 00:18:35,723
and one person to do step two
and step three and so on,

403
00:18:35,747 --> 00:18:38,358
production can increase tremendously.

404
00:18:38,382 --> 00:18:40,121
And indeed, this is a great example,

405
00:18:40,145 --> 00:18:43,596
and the reason for the Industrial
Revolution and efficiency.

406
00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:45,856
Karl Marx, on the other hand,

407
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,341
said that the alienation
of labor is incredibly important

408
00:18:49,365 --> 00:18:52,761
in how people think about the connection
to what they are doing.

409
00:18:52,785 --> 00:18:56,055
And if you do all 12 steps,
you care about the pin.

410
00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,531
But if you do one step every time,
maybe you don't care as much.

411
00:19:00,568 --> 00:19:03,353
I think that in the Industrial Revolution,

412
00:19:03,377 --> 00:19:05,964
Adam Smith was more
correct than Karl Marx.

413
00:19:06,488 --> 00:19:09,323
But the reality is that we've switched,

414
00:19:09,347 --> 00:19:11,355
and now we're in the knowledge economy.

415
00:19:11,379 --> 00:19:14,266
You can ask yourself, what happens
in a knowledge economy?

416
00:19:14,290 --> 00:19:17,537
Is efficiency still more
important than meaning?

417
00:19:17,561 --> 00:19:18,971
I think the answer is no.

418
00:19:18,995 --> 00:19:21,189
I think that as we move to situations

419
00:19:21,213 --> 00:19:24,172
in which people have
to decide on their own

420
00:19:24,196 --> 00:19:28,366
about how much effort, attention,
caring, how connected they feel to it,

421
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:30,765
are they thinking about labor
on the way to work,

422
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:32,366
and in the shower and so on,

423
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:35,978
all of a sudden Marx
has more things to say to us.

424
00:19:36,843 --> 00:19:38,249
So when we think about labor,

425
00:19:38,273 --> 00:19:41,673
we usually think about motivation
and payment as the same thing,

426
00:19:41,697 --> 00:19:45,299
but the reality is that we should
probably add all kinds of things to it --

427
00:19:45,323 --> 00:19:49,519
meaning, creation, challenges,
ownership, identity, pride, etc.

428
00:19:49,823 --> 00:19:52,506
The good news is that if we added
all of those components

429
00:19:52,530 --> 00:19:54,108
and thought about them --

430
00:19:54,132 --> 00:19:57,545
how do we create our own
meaning, pride, motivation,

431
00:19:57,569 --> 00:19:59,419
and how do we do it in our workplace,

432
00:19:59,443 --> 00:20:00,841
and for the employees --

433
00:20:00,865 --> 00:20:04,830
I think we could get people to be
both more productive and happier.

434
00:20:04,854 --> 00:20:06,160
Thank you very much.

435
00:20:06,184 --> 00:20:07,984
(Applause)