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Chris Anderson: Perhaps we could start
by just telling us about your country.

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It's three dots there on the globe.
Those dots are pretty huge.

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I think each one
is about the size of California.

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Tell us about Kiribati.

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Anote Tong: Well, let me first begin
by saying how deeply grateful I am

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for this opportunity to share my story
with people who do care.

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I think I've been sharing my story with
a lot of people who don't care too much.

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But Kiribati is comprised
of three groups of islands:

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the Gilbert Group on the west,

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we have the Phoenix Islands in the middle,

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and the Line Islands in the east.

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And quite frankly, Kiribati
is perhaps the only country

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that is actually
in the four corners of the world,

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because we are in the Northern Hemisphere,
in the Southern Hemisphere,

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and also in the east and the west
of the International Date Line.

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These islands are entirely
made up of coral atolls,

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and on average about
two meters above sea level.

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And so this is what we have.

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Usually not more
than two kilometers in width.

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And so, on many occasions,
I've been asked by people,

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"You know, you're suffering,
why don't you move back?"

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They don't understand.

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They have no concept
of what it is that's involved.

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With the rising sea, they say,
"Well, you can move back."

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And so this is what I tell them.

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If we move back, we will fall off
on the other side of the ocean. OK?

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But these are the kinds of issues
that people don't understand.

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CA: So certainly this is
just a picture of fragility there.

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When was it that you yourself realized

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that there might be
impending peril for your country?

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AT: Well, the story of climate change
has been one that has been going on

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for quite a number of decades.

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And when I came into office in 2003,

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I began talking about climate change
at the United Nations General Assembly,

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but not with so much passion,

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because then there was still
this controversy among the scientists

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whether it was human-induced,
whether it was real or it wasn't.

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But I think that that debate
was fairly much concluded in 2007

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with the Fourth Assessment
Report of the IPCC,

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which made a categorical statement
that it is real, it's human-induced,

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and it's predicting
some very serious scenarios

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for countries like mine.

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And so that's when I got very serious.

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In the past, I talked about it.

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We were worried.

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But when the scenarios,
the predictions came in 2007,

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it became a real issue for us.

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CA: Now, those predictions are,
I think, that by 2100,

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sea levels are forecast to rise
perhaps three feet.

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There's scenarios where
it's higher than that, for sure,

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but what would you say
to a skeptic who said,

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"What's three feet?

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You're on average
six feet above sea level.

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What's the problem?"

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AT: Well, I think
it's got to be understood

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that a marginal rise in sea level

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would mean a loss of a lot of land,

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because much of the land is low.

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And quite apart from that,
we are getting the swells at the moment.

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So it's not about getting two feet.

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I think what many people do not understand

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is they think climate change is something
that is happening in the future.

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Well, we're at the very
bottom end of the spectrum.

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It's already with us.

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We have communities
who already have been dislocated.

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They have had to move,
and every parliament session,

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I'm getting complaints
from different communities

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asking for assistance to build seawalls,

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to see what we can do
about the freshwater lens

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because it's being destroyed,

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and so in my trips
to the different islands,

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I'm seeing evidence of communities

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which are now having to cope
with the loss of food crops,

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the contamination of the water lenses,

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and I see these communities
perhaps leaving, having to relocate,

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within five to 10 years.

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CA: And then, I think the country
suffered its first cyclone,

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and this is connected, yes?
What happened here?

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AT: Well, we're on the equator,

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and I'm sure many of you understand
that when you're on the equator,

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it's supposed to be in the doldrums.
We're not supposed to get the cyclones.

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We create them, and then we send them
either north or south.

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(Laughter)

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But they aren't supposed to come back.

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But for the first time,
at the beginning of this year,

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the Cyclone Pam,
which destroyed Vanuatu,

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and in the process,
the very edges of it actually touched

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our two southernmost islands,

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and all of Tuvalu was underwater
when Hurricane Pam struck.

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But for our two southernmost islands,

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we had waves come over half the island,

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and so this has never happened before.

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It's a new experience.

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And I've just come back
from my own constituency,

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and I've seen these beautiful trees
which had been there for decades,

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they've been totally destroyed.

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So this is what's happening,

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but when we talk
about the rising sea level,

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we think it's something
that happens gradually.

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It comes with the winds,
it comes with the swells,

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and so they can be magnified,

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but what we are beginning to witness
is the change in the weather pattern,

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which is perhaps the more urgent challenge

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that we will face sooner
than perhaps the rising sea level.

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CA: So the country
is already seeing effects now.

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As you look forward,

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what are your options
as a country, as a nation?

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AT: Well, I've been telling
this story every year.

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I think I visit a number of --

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I've been traveling the world
to try and get people to understand.

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We have a plan, we think we have a plan.

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And on one occasion,
I think I spoke in Geneva

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and there was a gentleman
who was interviewing me

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on something like this,

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and I said, "We are looking
at floating islands,"

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and he thought it was funny,
but somebody said,

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"No, this is not funny.
These people are looking for solutions."

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And so I have been looking
at floating islands.

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The Japanese are interested
in building floating islands.

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But, as a country,
we have made a commitment

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that no matter what happens,
we will try as much as possible

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to stay and continue to exist as a nation.

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What that will take,

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it's going to be
something quite significant,

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very, very substantial.

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Either we live on floating islands,

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or we have to build up the islands
to continue to stay out of the water

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as the sea level rises
and as the storms get more severe.

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But even that, it's going to be
very, very difficult

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to get the kind of resourcing
that we would need.

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CA: And then the only recourse
is some form of forced migration.

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AT: Well, we are also looking at that

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because in the event
that nothing comes forward

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from the international community,

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we are preparing,

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we don't want to be caught
like what's happening in Europe.

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OK? We don't want to mass migrate
at some point in time.

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We want to be able
to give the people the choice today,

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those who choose
and want to do that, to migrate.

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We don't want something to happen
that they are forced to migrate

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without having been prepared to do so.

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Of course, our culture is very different,
our society is very different,

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and once we migrate
into a different environment,

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a different culture,

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there's a whole lot
of adjustments that are required.

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CA: Well, there's forced migration
in your country's past,

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and I think just this week,

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just yesterday
or the day before yesterday,

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you visited these people.

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What happened here? What's the story here?

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AT: Yes, and I'm sorry,
I think somebody was asking

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why we were sneaking off
to visit that place.

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I had a very good reason, because we have
a community of Kiribati people

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living in that part
of the Solomon Islands,

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but these were people who were relocated
from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,

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in the 1960s.

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There was serious drought, and the people
could not continue to live on the island,

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and so they were moved
to live here in the Solomon Islands.

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And so yesterday it was very interesting
to meet with these people.

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They didn't know who I was.
They hadn't heard of me.

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Some of them later recognized me,

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but I think they were very happy.

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Later they really wanted to have
the opportunity to welcome me formally.

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But I think what I saw yesterday
was very interesting

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because here I see our people.

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I spoke in our language, and of course
they spoke back, they replied,

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but their accent, they are beginning
not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.

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I saw them, there was
this lady with red teeth.

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She was chewing betel nuts,

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and it's not something we do in Kiribati.

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We don't chew betel nuts.

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I met also a family who have married
the local people here,

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and so this is what is happening.

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As you go into another community,
there are bound to be changes.

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There is bound to be
a certain loss of identity,

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and this is what we will be
looking for in the future

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if and when we do migrate.

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CA: It must have been
just an extraordinarily emotional day

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because of these questions about identity,

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the joy of seeing you and perhaps
an emphasized sense of what they had lost.

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And it's very inspiring to hear you say
you're going to fight to the end

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to try to preserve
the nation in a location.

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AT: This is our wish.

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Nobody wants ever to leave their home,

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and so it's been
a very difficult decision for me.

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As a leader, you don't make plans
to leave your island, your home,

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and so I've been asked
on a number of occasions,

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"So how do you feel?"

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And it doesn't feel good at all.

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It's an emotional thing,
and I've tried to live with it,

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and I know that on occasions, I'm accused
of not trying to solve the problem

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because I can't solve the problem.

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It's something that's got
to be done collectively.

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Climate change is a global phenomenon,
and as I've often argued,

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unfortunately, the countries,
when we come to the United Nations --

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I was in a meeting with
the Pacific Island Forum countries

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where Australia and New Zealand
are also members,

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and we had an argument.

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There was a bit of a story in the news

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because they were arguing
that to cut emissions,

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it would be something
that they're unable to do

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because it would affect the industries.

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And so here I was saying,

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OK, I hear you,

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I understand what you're saying,

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but try also to understand what I'm saying

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because if you do not cut your emissions,

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then our survival is on the line.

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And so it's a matter for you
to weigh this, these moral issues.

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It's about industry as opposed to
the survival of a people.

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CA: You know, I ask you yesterday
what made you angry,

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and you said, "I don't get angry."
But then you paused.

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I think this made you angry.

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AT: I'd refer you to my earlier
statement at the United Nations.

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I was very angry, very frustrated
and then depressed.

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There was a sense of futility

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that we are fighting a fight
that we have no hope of winning.

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I had to change my approach.

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I had to become more reasonable

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because I thought people would listen
to somebody who was rational,

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but I remain radically rational,
whatever that is.

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(Laughter)

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CA: Now, a core part
of your nation's identity is fishing.

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I think you said pretty much everyone
is involved in fishing in some way.

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AT: Well, we eat fish
every day, every day,

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and I think there is no doubt
that our rate of consumption of fish

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is perhaps the highest in the world.

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We don't have a lot of livestock,

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so it's fish that we depend on.

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CA: So you're dependent on fish,
both at the local level

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and for the revenues
that the country receives

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from the global fishing business for tuna,

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and yet despite that, a few years ago
you took a very radical step.

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Can you tell us about that?

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I think something happened
right here in the Phoenix Islands.

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AT: Let me give some of the background
of what fish means for us.

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We have one of the largest
tuna fisheries remaining in the world.

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In the Pacific, I think we own
something like 60 percent

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of the remaining tuna fisheries,

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and it remains relatively healthy
for some species, but not all.

241
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And Kiribati is one of the three
major resource owners,

242
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tuna resource owners.

243
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,216
And at the moment, we have been getting

244
00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,136
something like 80 to 90
percent of our revenue

245
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,616
from access fees, license fees.

246
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,496
CA: Of your national revenue.

247
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,336
AT: National revenue,

248
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,176
which drives everything that we do

249
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,216
in governments, hospitals,
schools and what have you.

250
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:32,456
But we decided to close this,
and it was a very difficult decision.

251
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I can assure you, politically,
locally, it was not easy,

252
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,976
but I was convinced that we had to do this

253
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,576
in order to ensure
that the fishery remains sustainable.

254
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,376
There had been some indications
that some of the species,

255
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,536
in particular the bigeye,
was under serious threat.

256
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,936
The yellowfin was also heavily fished.

257
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,696
Skipjack remains healthy.

258
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,496
And so we had to do something like that,
and so that was the reason I did that.

259
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,416
Another reason why I did that

260
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,136
was because I had been asking
the international community

261
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,696
that in order to deal with climate change,
in order to fight climate change,

262
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,616
there has got to be sacrifice,
there has got to be commitment.

263
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,936
So in asking the international community
to make a sacrifice,

264
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,776
I thought we ourselves
need to make that sacrifice.

265
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,616
And so we made the sacrifice.

266
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,583
And forgoing commercial fishing

267
00:14:35,608 --> 00:14:38,216
in the Phoenix Islands protected area

268
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,096
would mean a loss of revenue.

269
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,597
We are still trying to assess
what that loss would be

270
00:14:42,621 --> 00:14:47,856
because we actually closed it off
at the beginning of this year,

271
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,216
and so we will see by the end of this year

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00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,736
what it means in terms
of the lost revenue.

273
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,016
CA: So there's so many things
playing into this.

274
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:03,016
On the one hand,
it may prompt healthier fisheries.

275
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,416
I mean, how much are you able
to move the price up

276
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,936
that you charge for the remaining areas?

277
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,576
AT: The negotiations
have been very difficult,

278
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,456
but we have managed
to raise the cost of a vessel day.

279
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,096
For any vessel
to come in to fish for a day,

280
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,736
we have raised the fee from --
it was $6,000 and $8,000,

281
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,336
now to $10,000, $12,000 per vessel day.

282
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,576
And so there's been
that significant increase.

283
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,176
But at the same time,
what's important to note is,

284
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,536
whereas in the past these fishing boats

285
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,496
might be fishing in a day
and maybe catch 10 tons,

286
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,416
now they're catching maybe 100 tons
because they've become so efficient.

287
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,776
And so we've got to respond likewise.

288
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,976
We've got to be very, very careful
because the technology has so improved.

289
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:59,416
There was a time when the Brazilian fleet
moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

290
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:00,656
They couldn't.

291
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,896
They started experimenting
if they could, per se.

292
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,600
But now they've got ways of doing it,
and they've become so efficient.

293
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,198
CA: Can you give us a sense
of what it's like in those negotiations?

294
00:16:12,223 --> 00:16:13,920
Because you're up against companies

295
00:16:13,944 --> 00:16:17,536
that have hundreds of millions
of dollars at stake, essentially.

296
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,896
How do you hold the line?

297
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,976
Is there any advice you can give

298
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,056
to other leaders who are dealing
with the same companies

299
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,376
about how to get
the most for your country,

300
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,416
get the most for the fish?

301
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:35,976
What advice would you give?

302
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:42,256
AT: Well, I think we focus
too often on licensing

303
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:43,947
in order to get the rate of return,

304
00:16:43,971 --> 00:16:46,776
because what we are getting
from license fees

305
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,416
is about 10 percent
of the landed value of the catch

306
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,576
on the side of the wharf,
not in the retail shops.

307
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,576
And we only get about 10 percent.

308
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,216
What we have been trying
to do over the years

309
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,096
is actually to increase
our participation in the industry,

310
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,736
in the harvesting, in the processing,

311
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,617
and eventually, hopefully, the marketing.

312
00:17:07,642 --> 00:17:11,336
They're not easy to penetrate,

313
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,656
but we are working towards that,

314
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,296
and yes, the answer would be to enhance.

315
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:20,536
In order to increase our rate of return,
we have to become more involved.

316
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,736
And so we've started doing that,

317
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,016
and we have to restructure the industry.

318
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,416
We've got to tell these people
that the world has changed.

319
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,856
Now we want to produce the fish ourselves.

320
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:35,976
CA: And meanwhile,
for your local fishermen,

321
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,096
they are still able to fish,

322
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:41,576
but what is business like for them?

323
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,936
Is it getting harder?
Are the waters depleted?

324
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,416
Or is that being run
on a sustainable basis?

325
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:48,896
AT: For the artisanal fishery,

326
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,176
we do not participate
in the commercial fishing activity

327
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,216
except only to supply the domestic market.

328
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,536
The tuna fishery is really
entirely for the foreign market,

329
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:04,776
mostly here in the US, Europe, Japan.

330
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,336
So I am a fisherman, very much,

331
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,536
and I used to be able to catch yellowfin.

332
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,336
Now it's very, very rare
to be able to catch yellowfin

333
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:18,736
because they are being lifted
out of the water by the hundreds of tons

334
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,640
by these purse seiners.

335
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:27,296
CA: So here's a couple
of beautiful girls from your country.

336
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,536
I mean, as you think about their future,

337
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,216
what message would you have for them

338
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,256
and what message
would you have for the world?

339
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,709
AT: Well, I've been telling the world
that we really have to do something

340
00:18:39,733 --> 00:18:41,576
about what is happening to the climate

341
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,376
because for us, it's about
the future of these children.

342
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,336
I have 12 grandchildren, at least.

343
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,376
I think I have 12, my wife knows.

344
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,616
(Laughter)

345
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,656
And I think I have eight children.

346
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,936
It's about their future.

347
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,696
Every day I see my grandchildren,
about the same age as these young girls,

348
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,136
and I do wonder,

349
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,376
and I get angry sometimes, yes I do.

350
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,456
I wonder what is to become of them.

351
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,616
And so it's about them

352
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,896
that we should be telling everybody,

353
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,176
that it's not about
their own national interest,

354
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,856
because climate change,
regrettably, unfortunately,

355
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,976
is viewed by many countries
as a national problem. It's not.

356
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,000
And this is the argument
we got into recently with our partners,

357
00:19:24,024 --> 00:19:25,720
the Australians and New Zealanders,

358
00:19:25,744 --> 00:19:29,056
because they said,
"We can't cut any more."

359
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,696
This is what one of the leaders,
the Australian leader, said,

360
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,976
that we've done our part,
we are cutting back.

361
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,656
I said, What about the rest?
Why don't you keep it?

362
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,376
If you could keep
the rest of your emissions

363
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,696
within your boundaries,
within your borders,

364
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,496
we'd have no question.

365
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,336
You can go ahead as much as you like.

366
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:51,496
But unfortunately,
you're sending it our way,

367
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,711
and it's affecting
the future of our children.

368
00:19:53,735 --> 00:19:58,776
And so surely I think that is the heart
of the problem of climate change today.

369
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,856
We will be meeting in Paris
at the end of this year,

370
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,816
but until we can think of this
as a global phenomenon,

371
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,096
because we create it,
individually, as nations,

372
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,056
but it affects everybody else,

373
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,696
and yet, we refuse
to do anything about it,

374
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,176
and we deal with it as a national problem,

375
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,296
which it is not -- it is a global issue,

376
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,040
and it's got to be
dealt with collectively.

377
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:27,456
CA: People are incredibly bad
at responding to graphs and numbers,

378
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,256
and we shut our minds to it.

379
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:37,536
Somehow, to people, we're slightly better
at responding to that sometimes.

380
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,496
And it seems like it's
very possible that your nation,

381
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,976
despite, actually because of
the intense problems you face,

382
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,896
you may yet be the warning light
to the world that shines most visibly,

383
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,896
most powerfully.

384
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,737
I just want to thank you, 
I'm sure, on behalf of all of us,

385
00:20:54,762 --> 00:20:57,256
for your extraordinary leadership
and for being here.

386
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:58,853
Mr. President, thank you so much.

387
00:20:58,873 --> 00:20:59,646
AT: Thank you.

388
00:20:59,666 --> 00:21:02,120
(Applause)