WEBVTT 00:00:00.855 --> 00:00:03.798 There is an entire genre of YouTube videos 00:00:03.798 --> 00:00:05.811 devoted to an experience which 00:00:05.811 --> 00:00:08.388 I am certain that everyone in this room has had. 00:00:08.388 --> 00:00:10.401 It entails an individual who, 00:00:10.401 --> 00:00:11.964 thinking they're alone, 00:00:11.964 --> 00:00:15.170 engages in some expressive behavior — 00:00:15.170 --> 00:00:17.677 wild singing, gyrating dancing, 00:00:17.677 --> 00:00:20.280 some mild sexual activity — 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:22.878 only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone, 00:00:22.878 --> 00:00:25.923 that there is a person watching and lurking, 00:00:25.923 --> 00:00:27.678 the discovery of which causes them 00:00:27.678 --> 00:00:29.578 to immediately cease what they were doing 00:00:29.578 --> 00:00:31.468 in horror. 00:00:31.468 --> 00:00:33.550 The sense of shame and humiliation 00:00:33.550 --> 00:00:35.833 in their face is palpable. 00:00:35.833 --> 00:00:37.565 It's the sense of, 00:00:37.565 --> 00:00:39.298 "This is something I'm willing to do 00:00:39.298 --> 00:00:42.898 only if no one else is watching." NOTE Paragraph 00:00:42.898 --> 00:00:45.316 This is the crux of the work 00:00:45.316 --> 00:00:47.363 on which I have been singularly focused 00:00:47.363 --> 00:00:49.238 for the last 16 months, 00:00:49.238 --> 00:00:51.300 the question of why privacy matters, 00:00:51.300 --> 00:00:53.238 a question that has arisen 00:00:53.238 --> 00:00:56.360 in the context of a global debate, 00:00:56.360 --> 00:00:58.848 enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden 00:00:58.848 --> 00:01:01.189 that the United States and its partners, 00:01:01.189 --> 00:01:03.211 unbeknownst to the entire world, 00:01:03.211 --> 00:01:05.303 has converted the Internet, 00:01:05.303 --> 00:01:08.104 once heralded as an unprecedented tool 00:01:08.104 --> 00:01:11.420 of liberation and democratization, 00:01:11.420 --> 00:01:13.189 into an unprecedented zone 00:01:13.189 --> 00:01:17.283 of mass, indiscriminate surveillance. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:17.283 --> 00:01:19.240 There is a very common sentiment 00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:20.726 that arises in this debate, 00:01:20.726 --> 00:01:22.683 even among people who are uncomfortable 00:01:22.683 --> 00:01:24.737 with mass surveillance, which says 00:01:24.737 --> 00:01:26.660 that there is no real harm 00:01:26.660 --> 00:01:29.405 that comes from this large-scale invasion 00:01:29.405 --> 00:01:32.679 because only people who are engaged in bad acts 00:01:32.679 --> 00:01:34.748 have a reason to want to hide 00:01:34.748 --> 00:01:37.459 and to care about their privacy. 00:01:37.459 --> 00:01:40.240 This worldview is implicitly grounded 00:01:40.240 --> 00:01:42.416 in the proposition that there are two kinds of people in the world, 00:01:42.416 --> 00:01:44.452 good people and bad people. 00:01:44.452 --> 00:01:47.420 Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks 00:01:47.420 --> 00:01:48.918 or who engage in violent criminality 00:01:48.918 --> 00:01:52.070 and therefore have reasons to want to hide what they're doing, 00:01:52.070 --> 00:01:54.127 have reasons to care about their privacy. 00:01:54.127 --> 00:01:56.950 But by contrast, good people 00:01:56.950 --> 00:01:58.603 are people who go to work, 00:01:58.603 --> 00:02:01.505 come home, raise their children, watch television. 00:02:01.505 --> 00:02:04.261 They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks 00:02:04.261 --> 00:02:06.736 but to read the news or exchange recipes 00:02:06.736 --> 00:02:09.210 or to plan their kids' Little League games, 00:02:09.210 --> 00:02:11.528 and those people are doing nothing wrong 00:02:11.528 --> 00:02:13.575 and therefore have nothing to hide 00:02:13.575 --> 00:02:15.937 and no reason to fear 00:02:15.937 --> 00:02:18.379 the government monitoring them. NOTE Paragraph 00:02:18.379 --> 00:02:20.189 The people who are actually saying that 00:02:20.189 --> 00:02:22.968 are engaged in a very extreme act 00:02:22.968 --> 00:02:24.524 of self-deprecation. 00:02:24.524 --> 00:02:26.433 What they're really saying is, 00:02:26.433 --> 00:02:28.626 "I have agreed to make myself 00:02:28.626 --> 00:02:31.472 such a harmless and unthreatening 00:02:31.472 --> 00:02:34.430 and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear 00:02:34.430 --> 00:02:37.779 having the government know what it is that I'm doing." 00:02:37.779 --> 00:02:39.583 This mindset has found what I think 00:02:39.583 --> 00:02:41.652 is its purest expression 00:02:41.652 --> 00:02:43.959 in a 2009 interview with 00:02:43.959 --> 00:02:46.894 the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who, 00:02:46.894 --> 00:02:49.436 when asked about all the different ways his company 00:02:49.436 --> 00:02:51.608 is causing invasions of privacy 00:02:51.608 --> 00:02:54.217 for hundreds of millions of people around the world, 00:02:54.217 --> 00:02:56.208 said this: He said, 00:02:56.208 --> 00:02:57.884 "If you're doing something that you don't want 00:02:57.884 --> 00:02:59.898 other people to know, 00:02:59.898 --> 00:03:03.903 maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." NOTE Paragraph 00:03:03.903 --> 00:03:05.888 Now, there's all kinds of things to say about 00:03:05.888 --> 00:03:08.233 that mentality, 00:03:08.233 --> 00:03:11.473 the first of which is that the people who say that, 00:03:11.473 --> 00:03:13.588 who say that privacy isn't really important, 00:03:13.588 --> 00:03:16.535 they don't actually believe it, 00:03:16.535 --> 00:03:18.357 and the way you know that they don't actually believe it 00:03:18.357 --> 00:03:21.226 is that while they say with their words that privacy doesn't matter, 00:03:21.226 --> 00:03:24.387 with their actions, they take all kinds of steps 00:03:24.387 --> 00:03:27.154 to safeguard their privacy. 00:03:27.154 --> 00:03:28.972 They put passwords on their email 00:03:28.972 --> 00:03:30.742 and their social media accounts, 00:03:30.742 --> 00:03:32.621 they put locks on their bedroom 00:03:32.621 --> 00:03:33.970 and bathroom doors, 00:03:33.970 --> 00:03:36.670 all steps designed to prevent other people 00:03:36.670 --> 00:03:39.572 from entering what they consider their private realm 00:03:39.572 --> 00:03:43.273 and knowing what it is that they don't want other people to know. 00:03:43.273 --> 00:03:46.333 The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google, 00:03:46.333 --> 00:03:48.942 ordered his employees at Google 00:03:48.942 --> 00:03:50.877 to cease speaking with the online 00:03:50.877 --> 00:03:53.150 Internet magazine CNET 00:03:53.150 --> 00:03:55.740 after CNET published an article 00:03:55.740 --> 00:03:57.773 full of personal, private information 00:03:57.773 --> 00:03:59.854 about Eric Schmidt, 00:03:59.854 --> 00:04:02.970 which it obtained exclusively through Google searches 00:04:02.970 --> 00:04:06.311 and using other Google products. (Laughter) 00:04:06.311 --> 00:04:08.168 This same division can be seen 00:04:08.168 --> 00:04:10.630 with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg, 00:04:10.630 --> 00:04:14.160 who in an infamous interview in 2010 00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:16.559 pronounced that privacy is no longer 00:04:16.559 --> 00:04:19.584 a "social norm." 00:04:19.584 --> 00:04:22.140 Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife 00:04:22.140 --> 00:04:24.445 purchased not only their own house 00:04:24.445 --> 00:04:28.320 but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto 00:04:28.320 --> 00:04:29.934 for a total of 30 million dollars 00:04:29.934 --> 00:04:33.466 in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy 00:04:33.466 --> 00:04:35.592 that prevented other people from monitoring 00:04:35.592 --> 00:04:39.191 what they do in their personal lives. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:39.191 --> 00:04:41.944 Over the last 16 months, as I've debated this issue around the world, 00:04:41.944 --> 00:04:44.360 every single time somebody has said to me, 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:45.869 "I don't really worry about invasions of privacy 00:04:45.869 --> 00:04:47.478 because I don't have anything to hide." 00:04:47.478 --> 00:04:49.178 I always say the same thing to them. 00:04:49.178 --> 00:04:51.471 I get out a pen, I write down my email address. 00:04:51.471 --> 00:04:53.113 I say, "Here's my email address. 00:04:53.113 --> 00:04:54.812 What I want you to do when you get home 00:04:54.812 --> 00:04:56.522 is email me the passwords 00:04:56.522 --> 00:04:58.332 to all of your email accounts, 00:04:58.332 --> 00:05:00.886 not just the nice, respectable work one in your name, 00:05:00.886 --> 00:05:02.436 but all of them, 00:05:02.436 --> 00:05:04.497 because I want to be able to just troll through 00:05:04.497 --> 00:05:06.176 what it is you're doing online, 00:05:06.176 --> 00:05:08.738 read what I want to read and publish whatever I find interesting. 00:05:08.738 --> 00:05:10.538 After all, if you're not a bad person, 00:05:10.538 --> 00:05:12.360 if you're doing nothing wrong, 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.340 you should have nothing to hide." NOTE Paragraph 00:05:15.340 --> 00:05:18.873 Not a single person has taken me up on that offer. 00:05:18.873 --> 00:05:22.878 I check and — (Applause) 00:05:22.878 --> 00:05:26.118 I check that email account religiously all the time. 00:05:26.118 --> 00:05:29.323 It's a very desolate place. 00:05:29.323 --> 00:05:31.110 And there's a reason for that, 00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:33.151 which is that we as human beings, 00:05:33.151 --> 00:05:35.105 even those of us who in words 00:05:35.105 --> 00:05:37.546 disclaim the importance of our own privacy, 00:05:37.546 --> 00:05:39.683 instinctively understand 00:05:39.683 --> 00:05:41.877 the profound importance of it. 00:05:41.877 --> 00:05:44.704 It is true that as human beings, we're social animals, 00:05:44.704 --> 00:05:46.853 which means we have a need for other people 00:05:46.853 --> 00:05:49.597 to know what we're doing and saying and thinking, 00:05:49.597 --> 00:05:53.867 which is why we voluntarily publish information about ourselves online. 00:05:53.867 --> 00:05:56.713 But equally essential to what it means 00:05:56.713 --> 00:05:59.294 to be a free and fulfilled human being 00:05:59.294 --> 00:06:01.431 is to have a place that we can go 00:06:01.431 --> 00:06:05.459 and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people. 00:06:05.459 --> 00:06:07.466 There's a reason why we seek that out, 00:06:07.466 --> 00:06:10.376 and our reason is that all of us — 00:06:10.376 --> 00:06:13.704 not just terrorists and criminals, all of us — 00:06:13.704 --> 00:06:15.749 have things to hide. 00:06:15.749 --> 00:06:18.496 There are all sorts of things that we do and think 00:06:18.496 --> 00:06:21.197 that we're willing to tell our physician 00:06:21.197 --> 00:06:24.952 or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse 00:06:24.952 --> 00:06:27.290 or our best friend that we would be mortified 00:06:27.290 --> 00:06:29.250 for the rest of the world to learn. 00:06:29.250 --> 00:06:31.452 We make judgments every single day 00:06:31.452 --> 00:06:33.910 about the kinds of things that we say and think and do 00:06:33.910 --> 00:06:35.631 that we're willing to have other people know, 00:06:35.631 --> 00:06:37.621 and the kinds of things that we say and think and do 00:06:37.621 --> 00:06:39.950 that we don't want anyone else to know about. 00:06:39.950 --> 00:06:43.277 People can very easily in words claim 00:06:43.277 --> 00:06:45.439 that they don't value their privacy, 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:50.416 but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief. NOTE Paragraph 00:06:50.416 --> 00:06:54.146 Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved 00:06:54.146 --> 00:06:55.890 universally and instinctively. 00:06:55.890 --> 00:06:57.777 It isn't just a reflexive movement 00:06:57.777 --> 00:07:00.491 like breathing air or drinking water. 00:07:00.491 --> 00:07:02.931 The reason is that when we're in a state 00:07:02.931 --> 00:07:05.588 where we can be monitored, where we can be watched, 00:07:05.588 --> 00:07:08.264 our behavior changes dramatically. 00:07:08.264 --> 00:07:11.297 The range of behavioral options that we consider 00:07:11.297 --> 00:07:13.105 when we think we're being watched 00:07:13.105 --> 00:07:15.260 severely reduce. 00:07:15.260 --> 00:07:17.475 This is just a fact of human nature 00:07:17.475 --> 00:07:19.763 that has been recognized in social science 00:07:19.763 --> 00:07:21.670 and in literature and in religion 00:07:21.670 --> 00:07:23.898 and in virtually every field of discipline. 00:07:23.898 --> 00:07:26.680 There are dozens of psychological studies 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.231 that prove that when somebody knows 00:07:29.231 --> 00:07:30.800 that they might be watched, 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.492 the behavior they engage in 00:07:32.492 --> 00:07:35.974 is vastly more conformist and compliant. 00:07:35.974 --> 00:07:39.319 Human shame is a very powerful motivator, 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.230 as is the desire to avoid it, 00:07:42.230 --> 00:07:43.729 and that's the reason why people, 00:07:43.729 --> 00:07:45.968 when they're in a state of being watched, make decisions 00:07:45.968 --> 00:07:49.230 not that are the byproduct of their own agency 00:07:49.230 --> 00:07:51.242 but that are about the expectations 00:07:51.242 --> 00:07:52.694 that others have of them 00:07:52.694 --> 00:07:57.128 or the mandates of societal orthodoxy. NOTE Paragraph 00:07:57.128 --> 00:07:59.995 This realization was exploited most powerfully 00:07:59.995 --> 00:08:04.136 for pragmatic ends by the 18th- century philosopher Jeremy Bentham, 00:08:04.136 --> 00:08:06.487 who set out to resolve an important problem 00:08:06.487 --> 00:08:08.289 ushered in by the industrial age, 00:08:08.289 --> 00:08:10.647 where, for the first time, institutions had become 00:08:10.647 --> 00:08:12.644 so large and centralized 00:08:12.644 --> 00:08:14.472 that they were no longer able to monitor 00:08:14.472 --> 00:08:17.425 and therefore control each one of their individual members, 00:08:17.425 --> 00:08:19.306 and the solution that he devised 00:08:19.306 --> 00:08:21.509 was an architectural design 00:08:21.509 --> 00:08:24.225 originally intended to be implemented in prisons 00:08:24.225 --> 00:08:26.544 that he called the panopticon, 00:08:26.544 --> 00:08:28.904 the primary attribute of which was the construction 00:08:28.904 --> 00:08:31.975 of an enormous tower in the center of the institution 00:08:31.975 --> 00:08:34.123 where whoever controlled the institution 00:08:34.123 --> 00:08:36.808 could at any moment watch any of the inmates, 00:08:36.808 --> 00:08:40.130 although they couldn't watch all of them at all times. 00:08:40.130 --> 00:08:42.185 And crucial to this design 00:08:42.185 --> 00:08:43.980 was that the inmates could not actually 00:08:43.980 --> 00:08:46.856 see into the panopticon, into the tower, 00:08:46.856 --> 00:08:48.528 and so they never knew 00:08:48.528 --> 00:08:50.700 if they were being watched or even when. 00:08:50.700 --> 00:08:54.283 And what made him so excited about this discovery 00:08:54.283 --> 00:08:56.156 was that that would mean that the prisoners 00:08:56.156 --> 00:08:59.184 would have to assume that they were being watched 00:08:59.184 --> 00:09:00.869 at any given moment, 00:09:00.869 --> 00:09:02.747 which would be the ultimate enforcer 00:09:02.747 --> 00:09:06.425 for obedience and compliance. 00:09:06.425 --> 00:09:09.350 The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault 00:09:09.350 --> 00:09:11.275 realized that that model could be used 00:09:11.275 --> 00:09:14.390 not just for prisons but for every institution 00:09:14.390 --> 00:09:16.340 that seeks to control human behavior: 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:19.215 schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces. 00:09:19.215 --> 00:09:21.413 And what he said was that this mindset, 00:09:21.413 --> 00:09:23.839 this framework discovered by Bentham, 00:09:23.839 --> 00:09:27.168 was the key means of societal control 00:09:27.168 --> 00:09:29.170 for modern, Western societies, 00:09:29.170 --> 00:09:30.944 which no longer need 00:09:30.944 --> 00:09:32.851 the overt weapons of tyranny — 00:09:32.851 --> 00:09:35.247 punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents, 00:09:35.247 --> 00:09:38.561 or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party — 00:09:38.561 --> 00:09:40.960 because mass surveillance creates 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.515 a prison in the mind 00:09:43.515 --> 00:09:45.358 that is a much more subtle 00:09:45.358 --> 00:09:47.247 though much more effective means 00:09:47.247 --> 00:09:50.296 of fostering compliance with social norms 00:09:50.296 --> 00:09:51.758 or with social orthodoxy, 00:09:51.758 --> 00:09:53.320 much more effective 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:56.445 than brute force could ever be. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:56.445 --> 00:09:59.263 The most iconic work of literature about surveillance 00:09:59.263 --> 00:10:02.813 and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984," 00:10:02.813 --> 00:10:06.280 which we all learn in school, and therefore it's almost become a cliche. 00:10:06.280 --> 00:10:08.349 In fact, whenever you bring it up in a debate about surveillance, 00:10:08.349 --> 00:10:10.598 people instantaneously dismiss it 00:10:10.598 --> 00:10:12.900 as inapplicable, and what they say is, 00:10:12.900 --> 00:10:16.183 "Oh, well in '1984,' there were monitors in people's homes, 00:10:16.183 --> 00:10:18.348 they were being watched at every given moment, 00:10:18.348 --> 00:10:22.310 and that has nothing to do with the surveillance state that we face." 00:10:22.310 --> 00:10:25.230 That is an actual fundamental misapprehension 00:10:25.230 --> 00:10:27.931 of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984." 00:10:27.931 --> 00:10:29.582 The warning that he was issuing 00:10:29.582 --> 00:10:31.190 was about a surveillance state 00:10:31.190 --> 00:10:33.354 not that monitored everybody at all times, 00:10:33.354 --> 00:10:35.407 but where people were aware that they could 00:10:35.407 --> 00:10:37.036 be monitored at any given moment. 00:10:37.036 --> 00:10:40.110 Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith, 00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:42.150 described the surveillance system 00:10:42.150 --> 00:10:43.548 that they faced: 00:10:43.548 --> 00:10:45.975 "There was, of course, no way of knowing 00:10:45.975 --> 00:10:48.292 whether you were being watched at any given moment." 00:10:48.292 --> 00:10:49.743 He went on to say, 00:10:49.743 --> 00:10:51.454 "At any rate, they could plug in your wire 00:10:51.454 --> 00:10:53.163 whenever they wanted to. 00:10:53.163 --> 00:10:55.742 You had to live, did live, 00:10:55.742 --> 00:10:57.995 from habit that became instinct, 00:10:57.995 --> 00:11:00.490 in the assumption that every sound you made 00:11:00.490 --> 00:11:02.680 was overheard and except in darkness 00:11:02.680 --> 00:11:05.419 every movement scrutinized." NOTE Paragraph 00:11:05.419 --> 00:11:08.765 The Abrahamic religions similarly posit 00:11:08.765 --> 00:11:11.708 that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority 00:11:11.708 --> 00:11:13.451 who, because of its omniscience, 00:11:13.451 --> 00:11:15.347 always watches whatever you're doing, 00:11:15.347 --> 00:11:18.120 which means you never have a private moment, 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:19.804 the ultimate enforcer 00:11:19.804 --> 00:11:22.794 for obedience to its dictates. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:22.794 --> 00:11:26.198 What all of these seemingly disparate works 00:11:26.198 --> 00:11:28.984 recognize, the conclusion that they all reach, 00:11:28.984 --> 00:11:31.306 is that a society in which people 00:11:31.306 --> 00:11:33.613 can be monitored at all times 00:11:33.613 --> 00:11:36.268 is a society that breeds conformity 00:11:36.268 --> 00:11:38.510 and obedience and submission, 00:11:38.510 --> 00:11:40.021 which is why every tyrant, 00:11:40.021 --> 00:11:42.103 the most overt to the most subtle, 00:11:42.103 --> 00:11:44.366 craves that system. 00:11:44.366 --> 00:11:47.020 Conversely, even more importantly, 00:11:47.020 --> 00:11:49.460 it is a realm of privacy, 00:11:49.460 --> 00:11:52.470 the ability to go somewhere where we can think 00:11:52.470 --> 00:11:55.628 and reason and interact and speak 00:11:55.628 --> 00:11:59.282 without the judgmental eyes of others being cast upon us, 00:11:59.282 --> 00:12:02.825 in which creativity and exploration 00:12:02.825 --> 00:12:05.853 and dissent exclusively reside, 00:12:05.853 --> 00:12:07.674 and that is the reason why, 00:12:07.674 --> 00:12:10.250 when we allow a society to exist 00:12:10.250 --> 00:12:12.413 in which we're subject to constant monitoring, 00:12:12.413 --> 00:12:15.390 we allow the essence of human freedom 00:12:15.390 --> 00:12:18.341 to be severely crippled. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:18.341 --> 00:12:21.463 The last point I want to observe about this mindset, 00:12:21.463 --> 00:12:23.388 the idea that only people who are doing something wrong 00:12:23.388 --> 00:12:27.270 have things to hide and therefore reasons to care about privacy, 00:12:27.270 --> 00:12:31.276 is that it entrenches two very destructive messages, 00:12:31.276 --> 00:12:33.304 two destructive lessons, 00:12:33.304 --> 00:12:35.060 the first of which is that 00:12:35.060 --> 00:12:37.180 the only people who care about privacy, 00:12:37.180 --> 00:12:39.236 the only people who will seek out privacy, 00:12:39.236 --> 00:12:43.311 are by definition bad people. 00:12:43.311 --> 00:12:45.443 This is a conclusion that we should have 00:12:45.443 --> 00:12:47.971 all kinds of reasons for avoiding, 00:12:47.971 --> 00:12:50.723 the most important of which is that when you say, 00:12:50.723 --> 00:12:53.100 "somebody who is doing bad things," 00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:55.937 you probably mean things like plotting a terrorist attack 00:12:55.937 --> 00:12:57.978 or engaging in violent criminality, 00:12:57.978 --> 00:13:00.518 a much narrower conception 00:13:00.518 --> 00:13:02.970 of what people who wield power mean 00:13:02.970 --> 00:13:05.020 when they say, "doing bad things." 00:13:05.020 --> 00:13:07.327 For them, "doing bad things" typically means 00:13:07.327 --> 00:13:10.398 doing something that poses meaningful challenges 00:13:10.398 --> 00:13:13.503 to the exercise of our own power. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:13.503 --> 00:13:15.453 The other really destructive 00:13:15.453 --> 00:13:17.361 and, I think, even more insidious lesson 00:13:17.361 --> 00:13:20.140 that comes from accepting this mindset 00:13:20.140 --> 00:13:22.906 is there's an implicit bargain 00:13:22.906 --> 00:13:26.250 that people who accept this mindset have accepted, 00:13:26.250 --> 00:13:27.705 and that bargain is this: 00:13:27.705 --> 00:13:29.677 If you're willing to render yourself 00:13:29.677 --> 00:13:31.779 sufficiently harmless, 00:13:31.779 --> 00:13:33.949 sufficiently unthreatening 00:13:33.949 --> 00:13:35.831 to those who wield political power, 00:13:35.831 --> 00:13:38.867 then and only then can you be free 00:13:38.867 --> 00:13:40.975 of the dangers of surveillance. 00:13:40.975 --> 00:13:43.360 It's only those who are dissidents, 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:44.841 who challenge power, 00:13:44.841 --> 00:13:46.653 who have something to worry about. 00:13:46.653 --> 00:13:50.060 There are all kinds of reasons why we should want to avoid that lesson as well. 00:13:50.060 --> 00:13:52.298 You may be a person who, right now, 00:13:52.298 --> 00:13:54.370 doesn't want to engage in that behavior, 00:13:54.370 --> 00:13:56.825 but at some point in the future you might. 00:13:56.825 --> 00:13:58.499 Even if you're somebody who decides 00:13:58.499 --> 00:14:00.264 that you never want to, 00:14:00.264 --> 00:14:01.898 the fact that there are other people 00:14:01.898 --> 00:14:04.102 who are willing to and able to resist 00:14:04.102 --> 00:14:06.136 and be adversarial to those in power — 00:14:06.136 --> 00:14:07.670 dissidents and journalists 00:14:07.670 --> 00:14:09.758 and activists and a whole range of others — 00:14:09.758 --> 00:14:12.252 is something that brings us all collective good 00:14:12.252 --> 00:14:15.230 that we should want to preserve. 00:14:15.230 --> 00:14:17.324 Equally critical is that the measure 00:14:17.324 --> 00:14:19.587 of how free a society is 00:14:19.587 --> 00:14:21.737 is not how it treats its good, 00:14:21.737 --> 00:14:24.200 obedient, compliant citizens, 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:26.040 but how it treats its dissidents 00:14:26.040 --> 00:14:29.155 and those who resist orthodoxy. 00:14:29.155 --> 00:14:30.752 But the most important reason 00:14:30.752 --> 00:14:33.153 is that a system of mass surveillance 00:14:33.153 --> 00:14:35.770 suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways. 00:14:35.770 --> 00:14:37.571 It renders off-limits 00:14:37.571 --> 00:14:39.577 all kinds of behavioral choices 00:14:39.577 --> 00:14:43.130 without our even knowing that it's happened. 00:14:43.130 --> 00:14:45.612 The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg 00:14:45.612 --> 00:14:48.105 once said, "He who does not move 00:14:48.105 --> 00:14:51.461 does not notice his chains." 00:14:51.461 --> 00:14:53.150 We can try and render the chains 00:14:53.150 --> 00:14:56.239 of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable, 00:14:56.239 --> 00:14:58.905 but the constraints that it imposes on us 00:14:58.905 --> 00:15:01.450 do not become any less potent. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:01.450 --> 00:15:03.058 Thank you very much. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:03.058 --> 00:15:04.489 (Applause) NOTE Paragraph 00:15:04.489 --> 00:15:05.996 Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:05.996 --> 00:15:10.893 (Applause) NOTE Paragraph 00:15:10.893 --> 00:15:13.280 Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:13.280 --> 00:15:16.122 (Applause) NOTE Paragraph 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:21.612 Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you. 00:15:21.612 --> 00:15:23.901 The case is rather convincing, I have to say, 00:15:23.901 --> 00:15:25.466 but I want to bring you back 00:15:25.466 --> 00:15:28.817 to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden 00:15:28.817 --> 00:15:30.882 for a few questions, if you don't mind. 00:15:30.882 --> 00:15:33.370 The first one is personal to you. 00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:36.411 We have all read about the arrest of your partner, 00:15:36.411 --> 00:15:39.721 David Miranda in London, and other difficulties, 00:15:39.721 --> 00:15:41.805 but I assume that 00:15:41.805 --> 00:15:45.161 in terms of personal engagement and risk, 00:15:45.161 --> 00:15:46.965 that the pressure on you is not that easy 00:15:46.965 --> 00:15:49.910 to take on the biggest sovereign organizations in the world. 00:15:49.910 --> 00:15:52.345 Tell us a little bit about that. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:52.345 --> 00:15:54.000 Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think one of the things that happens 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.932 is that people's courage in this regard 00:15:55.932 --> 00:15:57.644 gets contagious, 00:15:57.644 --> 00:16:01.107 and so although I and the other journalists with whom I was working 00:16:01.107 --> 00:16:02.643 were certainly aware of the risk — 00:16:02.643 --> 00:16:05.365 the United States continues to be the most powerful country in the world 00:16:05.365 --> 00:16:07.363 and doesn't appreciate it when you 00:16:07.363 --> 00:16:09.285 disclose thousands of their secrets 00:16:09.285 --> 00:16:11.796 on the Internet at will — 00:16:11.796 --> 00:16:15.265 seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old 00:16:15.265 --> 00:16:17.284 ordinary person who grew up in 00:16:17.284 --> 00:16:19.597 a very ordinary environment 00:16:19.597 --> 00:16:23.320 exercise the degree of principled courage that Edward Snowden risked, 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.540 knowing that he was going to go to prison for the rest of his life 00:16:25.540 --> 00:16:27.322 or that his life would unravel, 00:16:27.322 --> 00:16:29.297 inspired me and inspired other journalists 00:16:29.297 --> 00:16:31.120 and inspired, I think, people around the world, 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:32.808 including future whistleblowers, 00:16:32.808 --> 00:16:36.323 to realize that they can engage in that kind of behavior as well. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:36.323 --> 00:16:38.809 BG: I'm curious about your relationship with Ed Snowden, 00:16:38.809 --> 00:16:41.990 because you have spoken with him a lot, 00:16:41.990 --> 00:16:43.753 and you certainly continue doing so, 00:16:43.753 --> 00:16:46.389 but in your book, you never call him Edward, 00:16:46.389 --> 00:16:49.849 nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come? NOTE Paragraph 00:16:49.849 --> 00:16:51.493 GG: You know, I'm sure that's something 00:16:51.493 --> 00:16:54.824 for a team of psychologists to examine. (Laughter) 00:16:54.824 --> 00:16:58.413 I don't really know. The reason I think that, 00:16:58.413 --> 00:17:01.967 one of the important objectives that he actually had, 00:17:01.967 --> 00:17:04.303 one of his, I think, most important tactics, 00:17:04.303 --> 00:17:06.510 was that he knew that one of the ways 00:17:06.510 --> 00:17:09.200 to distract attention from the substance of the revelations 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:11.850 would be to try and personalize the focus on him, 00:17:11.850 --> 00:17:13.917 and for that reason, he stayed out of the media. 00:17:13.917 --> 00:17:16.426 He tried not to ever have his personal life 00:17:16.426 --> 00:17:18.105 subject to examination, 00:17:18.105 --> 00:17:20.819 and so I think calling him Snowden 00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:24.393 is a way of just identifying him as this important historical actor 00:17:24.393 --> 00:17:26.265 rather than trying to personalize him in a way 00:17:26.265 --> 00:17:29.145 that might distract attention from the substance. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:29.145 --> 00:17:30.602 Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis, 00:17:30.602 --> 00:17:32.378 the work of other journalists, 00:17:32.378 --> 00:17:35.378 have really developed the debate, 00:17:35.378 --> 00:17:37.506 and many governments, for example, have reacted, 00:17:37.506 --> 00:17:40.110 including in Brazil, with projects and programs 00:17:40.110 --> 00:17:42.964 to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc. 00:17:42.964 --> 00:17:45.716 There are a lot of things going on in that sense. 00:17:45.716 --> 00:17:47.986 But I'm wondering, for you personally, 00:17:47.986 --> 00:17:49.637 what is the endgame? 00:17:49.637 --> 00:17:51.270 At what point will you think, 00:17:51.270 --> 00:17:54.462 well, actually, we've succeeded in moving the dial? NOTE Paragraph 00:17:54.462 --> 00:17:56.740 GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist 00:17:56.740 --> 00:17:59.183 is very simple, which is to make sure 00:17:59.183 --> 00:18:01.195 that every single document that's newsworthy 00:18:01.195 --> 00:18:02.841 and that ought to be disclosed 00:18:02.841 --> 00:18:04.321 ends up being disclosed, 00:18:04.321 --> 00:18:06.358 and that secrets that should never have been kept in the first place 00:18:06.358 --> 00:18:07.833 end up uncovered. 00:18:07.833 --> 00:18:09.680 To me, that's the essence of journalism 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:11.207 and that's what I'm committed to doing. 00:18:11.207 --> 00:18:13.681 As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious 00:18:13.681 --> 00:18:15.868 for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more, 00:18:15.868 --> 00:18:18.394 I mean, I look at this as work that will never end 00:18:18.394 --> 00:18:20.571 until governments around the world 00:18:20.571 --> 00:18:23.190 are no longer able to subject entire populations 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:24.676 to monitoring and surveillance 00:18:24.676 --> 00:18:27.265 unless they convince some court or some entity 00:18:27.265 --> 00:18:28.987 that the person they've targeted 00:18:28.987 --> 00:18:31.578 has actually done something wrong. 00:18:31.578 --> 00:18:34.813 To me, that's the way that privacy can be rejuvenated. NOTE Paragraph 00:18:34.813 --> 00:18:37.159 BG: So Snowden is very, as we've seen at TED, 00:18:37.159 --> 00:18:39.927 is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself 00:18:39.927 --> 00:18:42.207 as a defender of democratic values 00:18:42.207 --> 00:18:43.920 and democratic principles. 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.948 But then, many people really find it difficult to believe 00:18:46.948 --> 00:18:49.350 that those are his only motivations. 00:18:49.350 --> 00:18:50.828 They find it difficult to believe 00:18:50.828 --> 00:18:52.449 that there was no money involved, 00:18:52.449 --> 00:18:54.360 that he didn't sell some of those secrets, 00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:56.189 even to China and to Russia, 00:18:56.189 --> 00:18:58.733 which are clearly not the best friends 00:18:58.733 --> 00:19:00.902 of the United States right now. 00:19:00.902 --> 00:19:02.608 And I'm sure many people in the room 00:19:02.608 --> 00:19:04.878 are wondering the same question. 00:19:04.878 --> 00:19:06.761 Do you consider it possible there is 00:19:06.761 --> 00:19:09.373 that part of Snowden we've not seen yet? NOTE Paragraph 00:19:09.373 --> 00:19:12.554 GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic. 00:19:12.554 --> 00:19:14.968 (Laughter) If you wanted to, 00:19:14.968 --> 00:19:17.430 and I know you're just playing devil's advocate, 00:19:17.430 --> 00:19:20.641 but if you wanted to sell 00:19:20.641 --> 00:19:22.547 secrets to another country, 00:19:22.547 --> 00:19:24.264 which he could have done and become 00:19:24.264 --> 00:19:25.910 extremely rich doing so, 00:19:25.910 --> 00:19:27.891 the last thing you would do is take those secrets 00:19:27.891 --> 00:19:30.635 and give them to journalists and ask journalists to publish them, 00:19:30.635 --> 00:19:32.661 because it makes those secrets worthless. 00:19:32.661 --> 00:19:34.309 People who want to enrich themselves 00:19:34.309 --> 00:19:36.279 do it secretly by selling secrets to the government, 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:38.100 but I think there's one important point worth making, 00:19:38.100 --> 00:19:40.338 which is, that accusation comes from 00:19:40.338 --> 00:19:42.170 people in the U.S. government, 00:19:42.170 --> 00:19:44.190 from people in the media who are loyalists 00:19:44.190 --> 00:19:45.788 to these various governments, 00:19:45.788 --> 00:19:48.936 and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people — 00:19:48.936 --> 00:19:50.541 "Oh, he can't really be doing this 00:19:50.541 --> 00:19:52.206 for principled reasons, 00:19:52.206 --> 00:19:54.448 he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" — 00:19:54.448 --> 00:19:56.555 they're saying a lot more about themselves 00:19:56.555 --> 00:19:58.381 than they are the target of their accusations, 00:19:58.381 --> 00:20:02.766 because — (Applause) — 00:20:02.766 --> 00:20:05.286 those people, the ones who make that accusation, 00:20:05.286 --> 00:20:07.190 they themselves never act 00:20:07.190 --> 00:20:09.112 for any reason other than corrupt reasons, 00:20:09.112 --> 00:20:10.744 so they assume 00:20:10.744 --> 00:20:13.376 that everybody else is plagued by the same disease 00:20:13.376 --> 00:20:15.378 of soullessness as they are, 00:20:15.378 --> 00:20:17.249 and so that's the assumption. 00:20:17.249 --> 00:20:18.876 (Applause) NOTE Paragraph 00:20:18.876 --> 00:20:21.360 BG: Glenn, thank you very much. GG: Thank you very much. NOTE Paragraph 00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:23.692 BG: Glenn Greenwald. 00:20:23.692 --> 00:20:24.806 (Applause)