0:00:00.855,0:00:03.798
There is an entire genre of YouTube videos

0:00:03.798,0:00:05.811
devoted to an experience which

0:00:05.811,0:00:08.388
I am certain that everyone in this room has had.

0:00:08.388,0:00:10.401
It entails an individual who,

0:00:10.401,0:00:11.964
thinking they're alone,

0:00:11.964,0:00:15.170
engages in some expressive behavior —

0:00:15.170,0:00:17.677
wild singing, gyrating dancing,

0:00:17.677,0:00:20.280
some mild sexual activity —

0:00:20.280,0:00:22.878
only to discover that, in fact, they are not alone,

0:00:22.878,0:00:25.923
that there is a person watching and lurking,

0:00:25.923,0:00:27.678
the discovery of which causes them

0:00:27.678,0:00:29.578
to immediately cease what they were doing

0:00:29.578,0:00:31.468
in horror.

0:00:31.468,0:00:33.550
The sense of shame and humiliation

0:00:33.550,0:00:35.833
in their face is palpable.

0:00:35.833,0:00:37.565
It's the sense of,

0:00:37.565,0:00:39.298
"This is something I'm willing to do

0:00:39.298,0:00:42.898
only if no one else is watching."

0:00:42.898,0:00:45.316
This is the crux of the work

0:00:45.316,0:00:47.363
on which I have been singularly focused

0:00:47.363,0:00:49.238
for the last 16 months,

0:00:49.238,0:00:51.300
the question of why privacy matters,

0:00:51.300,0:00:53.238
a question that has arisen

0:00:53.238,0:00:56.360
in the context of a global debate,

0:00:56.360,0:00:58.848
enabled by the revelations of Edward Snowden

0:00:58.848,0:01:01.189
that the United States and its partners,

0:01:01.189,0:01:03.211
unbeknownst to the entire world,

0:01:03.211,0:01:05.303
has converted the Internet,

0:01:05.303,0:01:08.104
once heralded as an unprecedented tool

0:01:08.104,0:01:11.420
of liberation and democratization,

0:01:11.420,0:01:13.189
into an unprecedented zone

0:01:13.189,0:01:17.283
of mass, indiscriminate surveillance.

0:01:17.283,0:01:19.240
There is a very common sentiment

0:01:19.240,0:01:20.726
that arises in this debate,

0:01:20.726,0:01:22.683
even among people who are uncomfortable

0:01:22.683,0:01:24.737
with mass surveillance, which says

0:01:24.737,0:01:26.660
that there is no real harm

0:01:26.660,0:01:29.405
that comes from this large-scale invasion

0:01:29.405,0:01:32.679
because only people who are engaged in bad acts

0:01:32.679,0:01:34.748
have a reason to want to hide

0:01:34.748,0:01:37.459
and to care about their privacy.

0:01:37.459,0:01:40.240
This worldview is implicitly grounded

0:01:40.240,0:01:42.416
in the proposition that there are[br]two kinds of people in the world,

0:01:42.416,0:01:44.452
good people and bad people.

0:01:44.452,0:01:47.420
Bad people are those who plot terrorist attacks

0:01:47.420,0:01:48.918
or who engage in violent criminality

0:01:48.918,0:01:52.070
and therefore have reasons to[br]want to hide what they're doing,

0:01:52.070,0:01:54.127
have reasons to care about their privacy.

0:01:54.127,0:01:56.950
But by contrast, good people

0:01:56.950,0:01:58.603
are people who go to work,

0:01:58.603,0:02:01.505
come home, raise their children, watch television.

0:02:01.505,0:02:04.261
They use the Internet not to plot bombing attacks

0:02:04.261,0:02:06.736
but to read the news or exchange recipes

0:02:06.736,0:02:09.210
or to plan their kids' Little League games,

0:02:09.210,0:02:11.528
and those people are doing nothing wrong

0:02:11.528,0:02:13.575
and therefore have nothing to hide

0:02:13.575,0:02:15.937
and no reason to fear

0:02:15.937,0:02:18.379
the government monitoring them.

0:02:18.379,0:02:20.189
The people who are actually saying that

0:02:20.189,0:02:22.968
are engaged in a very extreme act

0:02:22.968,0:02:24.524
of self-deprecation.

0:02:24.524,0:02:26.433
What they're really saying is,

0:02:26.433,0:02:28.626
"I have agreed to make myself

0:02:28.626,0:02:31.472
such a harmless and unthreatening

0:02:31.472,0:02:34.430
and uninteresting person that I actually don't fear

0:02:34.430,0:02:37.779
having the government know what it is that I'm doing."

0:02:37.779,0:02:39.583
This mindset has found what I think

0:02:39.583,0:02:41.652
is its purest expression

0:02:41.652,0:02:43.959
in a 2009 interview with

0:02:43.959,0:02:46.894
the longtime CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt, who,

0:02:46.894,0:02:49.436
when asked about all the different ways his company

0:02:49.436,0:02:51.608
is causing invasions of privacy

0:02:51.608,0:02:54.217
for hundreds of millions of people around the world,

0:02:54.217,0:02:56.208
said this: He said,

0:02:56.208,0:02:57.884
"If you're doing something that you don't want

0:02:57.884,0:02:59.898
other people to know,

0:02:59.898,0:03:03.903
maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

0:03:03.903,0:03:05.888
Now, there's all kinds of things to say about

0:03:05.888,0:03:08.233
that mentality,

0:03:08.233,0:03:11.473
the first of which is that the people who say that,

0:03:11.473,0:03:13.588
who say that privacy isn't really important,

0:03:13.588,0:03:16.535
they don't actually believe it,

0:03:16.535,0:03:18.357
and the way you know that[br]they don't actually believe it

0:03:18.357,0:03:21.226
is that while they say with their[br]words that privacy doesn't matter,

0:03:21.226,0:03:24.387
with their actions, they take all kinds of steps

0:03:24.387,0:03:27.154
to safeguard their privacy.

0:03:27.154,0:03:28.972
They put passwords on their email

0:03:28.972,0:03:30.742
and their social media accounts,

0:03:30.742,0:03:32.621
they put locks on their bedroom

0:03:32.621,0:03:33.970
and bathroom doors,

0:03:33.970,0:03:36.670
all steps designed to prevent other people

0:03:36.670,0:03:39.572
from entering what they consider their private realm

0:03:39.572,0:03:43.273
and knowing what it is that they[br]don't want other people to know.

0:03:43.273,0:03:46.333
The very same Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google,

0:03:46.333,0:03:48.942
ordered his employees at Google

0:03:48.942,0:03:50.877
to cease speaking with the online

0:03:50.877,0:03:53.150
Internet magazine CNET

0:03:53.150,0:03:55.740
after CNET published an article

0:03:55.740,0:03:57.773
full of personal, private information

0:03:57.773,0:03:59.854
about Eric Schmidt,

0:03:59.854,0:04:02.970
which it obtained exclusively[br]through Google searches

0:04:02.970,0:04:06.311
and using other Google products. (Laughter)

0:04:06.311,0:04:08.168
This same division can be seen

0:04:08.168,0:04:10.630
with the CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg,

0:04:10.630,0:04:14.160
who in an infamous interview in 2010

0:04:14.160,0:04:16.559
pronounced that privacy is no longer

0:04:16.559,0:04:19.584
a "social norm."

0:04:19.584,0:04:22.140
Last year, Mark Zuckerberg and his new wife

0:04:22.140,0:04:24.445
purchased not only their own house

0:04:24.445,0:04:28.320
but also all four adjacent houses in Palo Alto

0:04:28.320,0:04:29.934
for a total of 30 million dollars

0:04:29.934,0:04:33.466
in order to ensure that they enjoyed a zone of privacy

0:04:33.466,0:04:35.592
that prevented other people from monitoring

0:04:35.592,0:04:39.191
what they do in their personal lives.

0:04:39.191,0:04:41.944
Over the last 16 months, as I've[br]debated this issue around the world,

0:04:41.944,0:04:44.360
every single time somebody has said to me,

0:04:44.360,0:04:45.869
"I don't really worry about invasions of privacy

0:04:45.869,0:04:47.478
because I don't have anything to hide."

0:04:47.478,0:04:49.178
I always say the same thing to them.

0:04:49.178,0:04:51.471
I get out a pen, I write down my email address.

0:04:51.471,0:04:53.113
I say, "Here's my email address.

0:04:53.113,0:04:54.812
What I want you to do when you get home

0:04:54.812,0:04:56.522
is email me the passwords

0:04:56.522,0:04:58.332
to all of your email accounts,

0:04:58.332,0:05:00.886
not just the nice, respectable work one in your name,

0:05:00.886,0:05:02.436
but all of them,

0:05:02.436,0:05:04.497
because I want to be able to just troll through

0:05:04.497,0:05:06.176
what it is you're doing online,

0:05:06.176,0:05:08.738
read what I want to read and[br]publish whatever I find interesting.

0:05:08.738,0:05:10.538
After all, if you're not a bad person,

0:05:10.538,0:05:12.360
if you're doing nothing wrong,

0:05:12.360,0:05:15.340
you should have nothing to hide."

0:05:15.340,0:05:18.873
Not a single person has taken me up on that offer.

0:05:18.873,0:05:22.878
I check and — (Applause)

0:05:22.878,0:05:26.118
I check that email account religiously all the time.

0:05:26.118,0:05:29.323
It's a very desolate place.

0:05:29.323,0:05:31.110
And there's a reason for that,

0:05:31.110,0:05:33.151
which is that we as human beings,

0:05:33.151,0:05:35.105
even those of us who in words

0:05:35.105,0:05:37.546
disclaim the importance of our own privacy,

0:05:37.546,0:05:39.683
instinctively understand

0:05:39.683,0:05:41.877
the profound importance of it.

0:05:41.877,0:05:44.704
It is true that as human beings, we're social animals,

0:05:44.704,0:05:46.853
which means we have a need for other people

0:05:46.853,0:05:49.597
to know what we're doing and saying and thinking,

0:05:49.597,0:05:53.867
which is why we voluntarily publish[br]information about ourselves online.

0:05:53.867,0:05:56.713
But equally essential to what it means

0:05:56.713,0:05:59.294
to be a free and fulfilled human being

0:05:59.294,0:06:01.431
is to have a place that we can go

0:06:01.431,0:06:05.459
and be free of the judgmental eyes of other people.

0:06:05.459,0:06:07.466
There's a reason why we seek that out,

0:06:07.466,0:06:10.376
and our reason is that all of us —

0:06:10.376,0:06:13.704
not just terrorists and criminals, all of us —

0:06:13.704,0:06:15.749
have things to hide.

0:06:15.749,0:06:18.496
There are all sorts of things that we do and think

0:06:18.496,0:06:21.197
that we're willing to tell our physician

0:06:21.197,0:06:24.952
or our lawyer or our psychologist or our spouse

0:06:24.952,0:06:27.290
or our best friend that we would be mortified

0:06:27.290,0:06:29.250
for the rest of the world to learn.

0:06:29.250,0:06:31.452
We make judgments every single day

0:06:31.452,0:06:33.910
about the kinds of things that we say and think and do

0:06:33.910,0:06:35.631
that we're willing to have other people know,

0:06:35.631,0:06:37.621
and the kinds of things that we say and think and do

0:06:37.621,0:06:39.950
that we don't want anyone else to know about.

0:06:39.950,0:06:43.277
People can very easily in words claim

0:06:43.277,0:06:45.439
that they don't value their privacy,

0:06:45.439,0:06:50.416
but their actions negate the authenticity of that belief.

0:06:50.416,0:06:54.146
Now, there's a reason why privacy is so craved

0:06:54.146,0:06:55.890
universally and instinctively.

0:06:55.890,0:06:57.777
It isn't just a reflexive movement

0:06:57.777,0:07:00.491
like breathing air or drinking water.

0:07:00.491,0:07:02.931
The reason is that when we're in a state

0:07:02.931,0:07:05.588
where we can be monitored,[br]where we can be watched,

0:07:05.588,0:07:08.264
our behavior changes dramatically.

0:07:08.264,0:07:11.297
The range of behavioral options that we consider

0:07:11.297,0:07:13.105
when we think we're being watched

0:07:13.105,0:07:15.260
severely reduce.

0:07:15.260,0:07:17.475
This is just a fact of human nature

0:07:17.475,0:07:19.763
that has been recognized in social science

0:07:19.763,0:07:21.670
and in literature and in religion

0:07:21.670,0:07:23.898
and in virtually every field of discipline.

0:07:23.898,0:07:26.680
There are dozens of psychological studies

0:07:26.680,0:07:29.231
that prove that when somebody knows

0:07:29.231,0:07:30.800
that they might be watched,

0:07:30.800,0:07:32.492
the behavior they engage in

0:07:32.492,0:07:35.974
is vastly more conformist and compliant.

0:07:35.974,0:07:39.319
Human shame is a very powerful motivator,

0:07:39.319,0:07:42.230
as is the desire to avoid it,

0:07:42.230,0:07:43.729
and that's the reason why people,

0:07:43.729,0:07:45.968
when they're in a state of[br]being watched, make decisions

0:07:45.968,0:07:49.230
not that are the byproduct of their own agency

0:07:49.230,0:07:51.242
but that are about the expectations

0:07:51.242,0:07:52.694
that others have of them

0:07:52.694,0:07:57.128
or the mandates of societal orthodoxy.

0:07:57.128,0:07:59.995
This realization was exploited most powerfully

0:07:59.995,0:08:04.136
for pragmatic ends by the 18th-[br]century philosopher Jeremy Bentham,

0:08:04.136,0:08:06.487
who set out to resolve an important problem

0:08:06.487,0:08:08.289
ushered in by the industrial age,

0:08:08.289,0:08:10.647
where, for the first time, institutions had become

0:08:10.647,0:08:12.644
so large and centralized

0:08:12.644,0:08:14.472
that they were no longer able to monitor

0:08:14.472,0:08:17.425
and therefore control each one[br]of their individual members,

0:08:17.425,0:08:19.306
and the solution that he devised

0:08:19.306,0:08:21.509
was an architectural design

0:08:21.509,0:08:24.225
originally intended to be implemented in prisons

0:08:24.225,0:08:26.544
that he called the panopticon,

0:08:26.544,0:08:28.904
the primary attribute of which was the construction

0:08:28.904,0:08:31.975
of an enormous tower in the center of the institution

0:08:31.975,0:08:34.123
where whoever controlled the institution

0:08:34.123,0:08:36.808
could at any moment watch any of the inmates,

0:08:36.808,0:08:40.130
although they couldn't watch all of them at all times.

0:08:40.130,0:08:42.185
And crucial to this design

0:08:42.185,0:08:43.980
was that the inmates could not actually

0:08:43.980,0:08:46.856
see into the panopticon, into the tower,

0:08:46.856,0:08:48.528
and so they never knew

0:08:48.528,0:08:50.700
if they were being watched or even when.

0:08:50.700,0:08:54.283
And what made him so excited about this discovery

0:08:54.283,0:08:56.156
was that that would mean that the prisoners

0:08:56.156,0:08:59.184
would have to assume that they were being watched

0:08:59.184,0:09:00.869
at any given moment,

0:09:00.869,0:09:02.747
which would be the ultimate enforcer

0:09:02.747,0:09:06.425
for obedience and compliance.

0:09:06.425,0:09:09.350
The 20th-century French philosopher Michel Foucault

0:09:09.350,0:09:11.275
realized that that model could be used

0:09:11.275,0:09:14.390
not just for prisons but for every institution

0:09:14.390,0:09:16.340
that seeks to control human behavior:

0:09:16.340,0:09:19.215
schools, hospitals, factories, workplaces.

0:09:19.215,0:09:21.413
And what he said was that this mindset,

0:09:21.413,0:09:23.839
this framework discovered by Bentham,

0:09:23.839,0:09:27.168
was the key means of societal control

0:09:27.168,0:09:29.170
for modern, Western societies,

0:09:29.170,0:09:30.944
which no longer need

0:09:30.944,0:09:32.851
the overt weapons of tyranny —

0:09:32.851,0:09:35.247
punishing or imprisoning or killing dissidents,

0:09:35.247,0:09:38.561
or legally compelling loyalty to a particular party —

0:09:38.561,0:09:40.960
because mass surveillance creates

0:09:40.960,0:09:43.515
a prison in the mind

0:09:43.515,0:09:45.358
that is a much more subtle

0:09:45.358,0:09:47.247
though much more effective means

0:09:47.247,0:09:50.296
of fostering compliance with social norms

0:09:50.296,0:09:51.758
or with social orthodoxy,

0:09:51.758,0:09:53.320
much more effective

0:09:53.320,0:09:56.445
than brute force could ever be.

0:09:56.445,0:09:59.263
The most iconic work of literature about surveillance

0:09:59.263,0:10:02.813
and privacy is the George Orwell novel "1984,"

0:10:02.813,0:10:06.280
which we all learn in school, and[br]therefore it's almost become a cliche.

0:10:06.280,0:10:08.349
In fact, whenever you bring it up[br]in a debate about surveillance,

0:10:08.349,0:10:10.598
people instantaneously dismiss it

0:10:10.598,0:10:12.900
as inapplicable, and what they say is,

0:10:12.900,0:10:16.183
"Oh, well in '1984,' there were[br]monitors in people's homes,

0:10:16.183,0:10:18.348
they were being watched at every given moment,

0:10:18.348,0:10:22.310
and that has nothing to do with[br]the surveillance state that we face."

0:10:22.310,0:10:25.230
That is an actual fundamental misapprehension

0:10:25.230,0:10:27.931
of the warnings that Orwell issued in "1984."

0:10:27.931,0:10:29.582
The warning that he was issuing

0:10:29.582,0:10:31.190
was about a surveillance state

0:10:31.190,0:10:33.354
not that monitored everybody at all times,

0:10:33.354,0:10:35.407
but where people were aware that they could

0:10:35.407,0:10:37.036
be monitored at any given moment.

0:10:37.036,0:10:40.110
Here is how Orwell's narrator, Winston Smith,

0:10:40.110,0:10:42.150
described the surveillance system

0:10:42.150,0:10:43.548
that they faced:

0:10:43.548,0:10:45.975
"There was, of course, no way of knowing

0:10:45.975,0:10:48.292
whether you were being watched[br]at any given moment."

0:10:48.292,0:10:49.743
He went on to say,

0:10:49.743,0:10:51.454
"At any rate, they could plug in your wire

0:10:51.454,0:10:53.163
whenever they wanted to.

0:10:53.163,0:10:55.742
You had to live, did live,

0:10:55.742,0:10:57.995
from habit that became instinct,

0:10:57.995,0:11:00.490
in the assumption that every sound you made

0:11:00.490,0:11:02.680
was overheard and except in darkness

0:11:02.680,0:11:05.419
every movement scrutinized."

0:11:05.419,0:11:08.765
The Abrahamic religions similarly posit

0:11:08.765,0:11:11.708
that there's an invisible, all-knowing authority

0:11:11.708,0:11:13.451
who, because of its omniscience,

0:11:13.451,0:11:15.347
always watches whatever you're doing,

0:11:15.347,0:11:18.120
which means you never have a private moment,

0:11:18.120,0:11:19.804
the ultimate enforcer

0:11:19.804,0:11:22.794
for obedience to its dictates.

0:11:22.794,0:11:26.198
What all of these seemingly disparate works

0:11:26.198,0:11:28.984
recognize, the conclusion that they all reach,

0:11:28.984,0:11:31.306
is that a society in which people

0:11:31.306,0:11:33.613
can be monitored at all times

0:11:33.613,0:11:36.268
is a society that breeds conformity

0:11:36.268,0:11:38.510
and obedience and submission,

0:11:38.510,0:11:40.021
which is why every tyrant,

0:11:40.021,0:11:42.103
the most overt to the most subtle,

0:11:42.103,0:11:44.366
craves that system.

0:11:44.366,0:11:47.020
Conversely, even more importantly,

0:11:47.020,0:11:49.460
it is a realm of privacy,

0:11:49.460,0:11:52.470
the ability to go somewhere where we can think

0:11:52.470,0:11:55.628
and reason and interact and speak

0:11:55.628,0:11:59.282
without the judgmental eyes[br]of others being cast upon us,

0:11:59.282,0:12:02.825
in which creativity and exploration

0:12:02.825,0:12:05.853
and dissent exclusively reside,

0:12:05.853,0:12:07.674
and that is the reason why,

0:12:07.674,0:12:10.250
when we allow a society to exist

0:12:10.250,0:12:12.413
in which we're subject to constant monitoring,

0:12:12.413,0:12:15.390
we allow the essence of human freedom

0:12:15.390,0:12:18.341
to be severely crippled.

0:12:18.341,0:12:21.463
The last point I want to observe about this mindset,

0:12:21.463,0:12:23.388
the idea that only people who [br]are doing something wrong

0:12:23.388,0:12:27.270
have things to hide and therefore[br]reasons to care about privacy,

0:12:27.270,0:12:31.276
is that it entrenches two very destructive messages,

0:12:31.276,0:12:33.304
two destructive lessons,

0:12:33.304,0:12:35.060
the first of which is that

0:12:35.060,0:12:37.180
the only people who care about privacy,

0:12:37.180,0:12:39.236
the only people who will seek out privacy,

0:12:39.236,0:12:43.311
are by definition bad people.

0:12:43.311,0:12:45.443
This is a conclusion that we should have

0:12:45.443,0:12:47.971
all kinds of reasons for avoiding,

0:12:47.971,0:12:50.723
the most important of which is that when you say,

0:12:50.723,0:12:53.100
"somebody who is doing bad things,"

0:12:53.100,0:12:55.937
you probably mean things[br]like plotting a terrorist attack

0:12:55.937,0:12:57.978
or engaging in violent criminality,

0:12:57.978,0:13:00.518
a much narrower conception

0:13:00.518,0:13:02.970
of what people who wield power mean

0:13:02.970,0:13:05.020
when they say, "doing bad things."

0:13:05.020,0:13:07.327
For them, "doing bad things" typically means

0:13:07.327,0:13:10.398
doing something that poses meaningful challenges

0:13:10.398,0:13:13.503
to the exercise of our own power.

0:13:13.503,0:13:15.453
The other really destructive

0:13:15.453,0:13:17.361
and, I think, even more insidious lesson

0:13:17.361,0:13:20.140
that comes from accepting this mindset

0:13:20.140,0:13:22.906
is there's an implicit bargain

0:13:22.906,0:13:26.250
that people who accept this mindset have accepted,

0:13:26.250,0:13:27.705
and that bargain is this:

0:13:27.705,0:13:29.677
If you're willing to render yourself

0:13:29.677,0:13:31.779
sufficiently harmless,

0:13:31.779,0:13:33.949
sufficiently unthreatening

0:13:33.949,0:13:35.831
to those who wield political power,

0:13:35.831,0:13:38.867
then and only then can you be free

0:13:38.867,0:13:40.975
of the dangers of surveillance.

0:13:40.975,0:13:43.360
It's only those who are dissidents,

0:13:43.360,0:13:44.841
who challenge power,

0:13:44.841,0:13:46.653
who have something to worry about.

0:13:46.653,0:13:50.060
There are all kinds of reasons why we[br]should want to avoid that lesson as well.

0:13:50.060,0:13:52.298
You may be a person who, right now,

0:13:52.298,0:13:54.370
doesn't want to engage in that behavior,

0:13:54.370,0:13:56.825
but at some point in the future you might.

0:13:56.825,0:13:58.499
Even if you're somebody who decides

0:13:58.499,0:14:00.264
that you never want to,

0:14:00.264,0:14:01.898
the fact that there are other people

0:14:01.898,0:14:04.102
who are willing to and able to resist

0:14:04.102,0:14:06.136
and be adversarial to those in power —

0:14:06.136,0:14:07.670
dissidents and journalists

0:14:07.670,0:14:09.758
and activists and a whole range of others —

0:14:09.758,0:14:12.252
is something that brings us all collective good

0:14:12.252,0:14:15.230
that we should want to preserve.

0:14:15.230,0:14:17.324
Equally critical is that the measure

0:14:17.324,0:14:19.587
of how free a society is

0:14:19.587,0:14:21.737
is not how it treats its good,

0:14:21.737,0:14:24.200
obedient, compliant citizens,

0:14:24.200,0:14:26.040
but how it treats its dissidents

0:14:26.040,0:14:29.155
and those who resist orthodoxy.

0:14:29.155,0:14:30.752
But the most important reason

0:14:30.752,0:14:33.153
is that a system of mass surveillance

0:14:33.153,0:14:35.770
suppresses our own freedom in all sorts of ways.

0:14:35.770,0:14:37.571
It renders off-limits

0:14:37.571,0:14:39.577
all kinds of behavioral choices

0:14:39.577,0:14:43.130
without our even knowing that it's happened.

0:14:43.130,0:14:45.612
The renowned socialist activist Rosa Luxemburg

0:14:45.612,0:14:48.105
once said, "He who does not move

0:14:48.105,0:14:51.461
does not notice his chains."

0:14:51.461,0:14:53.150
We can try and render the chains

0:14:53.150,0:14:56.239
of mass surveillance invisible or undetectable,

0:14:56.239,0:14:58.905
but the constraints that it imposes on us

0:14:58.905,0:15:01.450
do not become any less potent.

0:15:01.450,0:15:03.058
Thank you very much.

0:15:03.058,0:15:04.489
(Applause)

0:15:04.489,0:15:05.996
Thank you.

0:15:05.996,0:15:10.893
(Applause)

0:15:10.893,0:15:13.280
Thank you.

0:15:13.280,0:15:16.122
(Applause)

0:15:19.320,0:15:21.612
Bruno Giussani: Glenn, thank you.

0:15:21.612,0:15:23.901
The case is rather convincing, I have to say,

0:15:23.901,0:15:25.466
but I want to bring you back

0:15:25.466,0:15:28.817
to the last 16 months and to Edward Snowden

0:15:28.817,0:15:30.882
for a few questions, if you don't mind.

0:15:30.882,0:15:33.370
The first one is personal to you.

0:15:33.370,0:15:36.411
We have all read about the arrest of your partner,

0:15:36.411,0:15:39.721
David Miranda in London, and other difficulties,

0:15:39.721,0:15:41.805
but I assume that

0:15:41.805,0:15:45.161
in terms of personal engagement and risk,

0:15:45.161,0:15:46.965
that the pressure on you is not that easy

0:15:46.965,0:15:49.910
to take on the biggest sovereign [br]organizations in the world.

0:15:49.910,0:15:52.345
Tell us a little bit about that.

0:15:52.345,0:15:54.000
Glenn Greenwald: You know, I think[br]one of the things that happens

0:15:54.000,0:15:55.932
is that people's courage in this regard

0:15:55.932,0:15:57.644
gets contagious,

0:15:57.644,0:16:01.107
and so although I and the other[br]journalists with whom I was working

0:16:01.107,0:16:02.643
were certainly aware of the risk —

0:16:02.643,0:16:05.365
the United States continues to be[br]the most powerful country in the world

0:16:05.365,0:16:07.363
and doesn't appreciate it when you

0:16:07.363,0:16:09.285
disclose thousands of their secrets

0:16:09.285,0:16:11.796
on the Internet at will —

0:16:11.796,0:16:15.265
seeing somebody who is a 29-year-old

0:16:15.265,0:16:17.284
ordinary person who grew up in

0:16:17.284,0:16:19.597
a very ordinary environment

0:16:19.597,0:16:23.320
exercise the degree of principled[br]courage that Edward Snowden risked,

0:16:23.320,0:16:25.540
knowing that he was going to go[br]to prison for the rest of his life

0:16:25.540,0:16:27.322
or that his life would unravel,

0:16:27.322,0:16:29.297
inspired me and inspired other journalists

0:16:29.297,0:16:31.120
and inspired, I think, people around the world,

0:16:31.120,0:16:32.808
including future whistleblowers,

0:16:32.808,0:16:36.323
to realize that they can engage[br]in that kind of behavior as well.

0:16:36.323,0:16:38.809
BG: I'm curious about your[br]relationship with Ed Snowden,

0:16:38.809,0:16:41.990
because you have spoken with him a lot,

0:16:41.990,0:16:43.753
and you certainly continue doing so,

0:16:43.753,0:16:46.389
but in your book, you never call him Edward,

0:16:46.389,0:16:49.849
nor Ed, you say "Snowden." How come?

0:16:49.849,0:16:51.493
GG: You know, I'm sure that's something

0:16:51.493,0:16:54.824
for a team of psychologists to examine.[br](Laughter)

0:16:54.824,0:16:58.413
I don't really know. The reason I think that,

0:16:58.413,0:17:01.967
one of the important objectives that he actually had,

0:17:01.967,0:17:04.303
one of his, I think, most important tactics,

0:17:04.303,0:17:06.510
was that he knew that one of the ways

0:17:06.510,0:17:09.200
to distract attention from the[br]substance of the revelations

0:17:09.200,0:17:11.850
would be to try and personalize the focus on him,

0:17:11.850,0:17:13.917
and for that reason, he stayed out of the media.

0:17:13.917,0:17:16.426
He tried not to ever have his personal life

0:17:16.426,0:17:18.105
subject to examination,

0:17:18.105,0:17:20.819
and so I think calling him Snowden

0:17:20.819,0:17:24.393
is a way of just identifying him[br]as this important historical actor

0:17:24.393,0:17:26.265
rather than trying to personalize him in a way

0:17:26.265,0:17:29.145
that might distract attention from the substance.

0:17:29.145,0:17:30.602
Moderator: So his revelations, your analysis,

0:17:30.602,0:17:32.378
the work of other journalists,

0:17:32.378,0:17:35.378
have really developed the debate,

0:17:35.378,0:17:37.506
and many governments, for example, have reacted,

0:17:37.506,0:17:40.110
including in Brazil, with projects and programs

0:17:40.110,0:17:42.964
to reshape a little bit the design of the Internet, etc.

0:17:42.964,0:17:45.716
There are a lot of things going on in that sense.

0:17:45.716,0:17:47.986
But I'm wondering, for you personally,

0:17:47.986,0:17:49.637
what is the endgame?

0:17:49.637,0:17:51.270
At what point will you think,

0:17:51.270,0:17:54.462
well, actually, we've succeeded [br]in moving the dial?

0:17:54.462,0:17:56.740
GG: Well, I mean, the endgame for me as a journalist

0:17:56.740,0:17:59.183
is very simple, which is to make sure

0:17:59.183,0:18:01.195
that every single document that's newsworthy

0:18:01.195,0:18:02.841
and that ought to be disclosed

0:18:02.841,0:18:04.321
ends up being disclosed,

0:18:04.321,0:18:06.358
and that secrets that should never[br]have been kept in the first place

0:18:06.358,0:18:07.833
end up uncovered.

0:18:07.833,0:18:09.680
To me, that's the essence of journalism

0:18:09.680,0:18:11.207
and that's what I'm committed to doing.

0:18:11.207,0:18:13.681
As somebody who finds mass surveillance odious

0:18:13.681,0:18:15.868
for all the reasons I just talked about and a lot more,

0:18:15.868,0:18:18.394
I mean, I look at this as work that will never end

0:18:18.394,0:18:20.571
until governments around the world

0:18:20.571,0:18:23.190
are no longer able to subject entire populations

0:18:23.190,0:18:24.676
to monitoring and surveillance

0:18:24.676,0:18:27.265
unless they convince some court or some entity

0:18:27.265,0:18:28.987
that the person they've targeted

0:18:28.987,0:18:31.578
has actually done something wrong.

0:18:31.578,0:18:34.813
To me, that's the way that[br]privacy can be rejuvenated.

0:18:34.813,0:18:37.159
BG: So Snowden is very,[br]as we've seen at TED,

0:18:37.159,0:18:39.927
is very articulate in presenting and portraying himself

0:18:39.927,0:18:42.207
as a defender of democratic values

0:18:42.207,0:18:43.920
and democratic principles.

0:18:43.920,0:18:46.948
But then, many people really [br]find it difficult to believe

0:18:46.948,0:18:49.350
that those are his only motivations.

0:18:49.350,0:18:50.828
They find it difficult to believe

0:18:50.828,0:18:52.449
that there was no money involved,

0:18:52.449,0:18:54.360
that he didn't sell some of those secrets,

0:18:54.360,0:18:56.189
even to China and to Russia,

0:18:56.189,0:18:58.733
which are clearly not the best friends

0:18:58.733,0:19:00.902
of the United States right now.

0:19:00.902,0:19:02.608
And I'm sure many people in the room

0:19:02.608,0:19:04.878
are wondering the same question.

0:19:04.878,0:19:06.761
Do you consider it possible there is

0:19:06.761,0:19:09.373
that part of Snowden we've not seen yet?

0:19:09.373,0:19:12.554
GG: No, I consider that absurd and idiotic.

0:19:12.554,0:19:14.968
(Laughter) If you wanted to,

0:19:14.968,0:19:17.430
and I know you're just playing devil's advocate,

0:19:17.430,0:19:20.641
but if you wanted to sell

0:19:20.641,0:19:22.547
secrets to another country,

0:19:22.547,0:19:24.264
which he could have done and become

0:19:24.264,0:19:25.910
extremely rich doing so,

0:19:25.910,0:19:27.891
the last thing you would [br]do is take those secrets

0:19:27.891,0:19:30.635
and give them to journalists and[br]ask journalists to publish them,

0:19:30.635,0:19:32.661
because it makes those secrets worthless.

0:19:32.661,0:19:34.309
People who want to enrich themselves

0:19:34.309,0:19:36.279
do it secretly by selling [br]secrets to the government,

0:19:36.279,0:19:38.100
but I think there's one important point worth making,

0:19:38.100,0:19:40.338
which is, that accusation comes from

0:19:40.338,0:19:42.170
people in the U.S. government,

0:19:42.170,0:19:44.190
from people in the media who are loyalists

0:19:44.190,0:19:45.788
to these various governments,

0:19:45.788,0:19:48.936
and I think a lot of times when people make accusations like that about other people —

0:19:48.936,0:19:50.541
"Oh, he can't really be doing this

0:19:50.541,0:19:52.206
for principled reasons,

0:19:52.206,0:19:54.448
he must have some corrupt, nefarious reason" —

0:19:54.448,0:19:56.555
they're saying a lot more about themselves

0:19:56.555,0:19:58.381
than they are the target of their accusations,

0:19:58.381,0:20:02.766
because — (Applause) —

0:20:02.766,0:20:05.286
those people, the ones who make that accusation,

0:20:05.286,0:20:07.190
they themselves never act

0:20:07.190,0:20:09.112
for any reason other than corrupt reasons,

0:20:09.112,0:20:10.744
so they assume

0:20:10.744,0:20:13.376
that everybody else is plagued by the same disease

0:20:13.376,0:20:15.378
of soullessness as they are,

0:20:15.378,0:20:17.249
and so that's the assumption.

0:20:17.249,0:20:18.876
(Applause)

0:20:18.876,0:20:21.360
BG: Glenn, thank you very much.[br]GG: Thank you very much.

0:20:21.360,0:20:23.692
BG: Glenn Greenwald.

0:20:23.692,0:20:24.806
(Applause)