0:00:00.521,0:00:05.356 We most certainly do talk to terrorists, no question about it. 0:00:05.356,0:00:11.242 We are at war with a new form of terrorism. 0:00:11.242,0:00:14.744 It's sort of the good old, traditional form of terrorism, 0:00:14.744,0:00:18.206 but it's sort of been packaged for the 21st century. 0:00:18.206,0:00:22.654 One of the big things about countering terrorism 0:00:22.654,0:00:25.986 is, how do you perceive it? 0:00:25.986,0:00:29.482 Because perception leads to your response to it. 0:00:29.482,0:00:33.710 So if you have a traditional perception of terrorism, 0:00:33.710,0:00:37.658 it would be that it's one of criminality, one of war. 0:00:37.658,0:00:39.271 So how are you going to respond to it? 0:00:39.271,0:00:42.905 Naturally, it would follow that you meet kind with kind. 0:00:42.905,0:00:46.736 You fight it. If you have a more modernist approach, 0:00:46.736,0:00:50.992 and your perception of terrorism is almost cause-and-effect, 0:00:50.992,0:00:54.955 then naturally from that, the responses that come out of it 0:00:54.955,0:00:58.603 are much more asymmetrical. 0:00:58.603,0:01:02.710 We live in a modern, global world. 0:01:02.710,0:01:06.192 Terrorists have actually adapted to it. 0:01:06.192,0:01:09.941 It's something we have to, too, and that means the people 0:01:09.941,0:01:13.081 who are working on counterterrorism responses 0:01:13.081,0:01:15.905 have to start, in effect, putting on 0:01:15.905,0:01:20.159 their Google-tinted glasses, or whatever. 0:01:20.159,0:01:24.952 For my part, what I wanted us to do was just to look at 0:01:24.952,0:01:28.456 terrorism as though it was a global brand, 0:01:28.456,0:01:30.085 say, Coca-Cola. 0:01:30.085,0:01:36.102 Both are fairly bad for your health. (Laughter) 0:01:36.102,0:01:40.132 If you look at it as a brand in those ways, 0:01:40.132,0:01:43.396 what you'll come to realize is, it's a pretty flawed product. 0:01:43.396,0:01:46.489 As we've said, it's pretty bad for your health, 0:01:46.489,0:01:48.495 it's bad for those who it affects, 0:01:48.495,0:01:51.528 and it's not actually good if you're a suicide bomber either. 0:01:51.528,0:01:55.144 It doesn't actually do what it says on the tin. 0:01:55.144,0:02:00.136 You're not really going to get 72 virgins in heaven. 0:02:00.136,0:02:02.606 It's not going to happen, I don't think. 0:02:02.606,0:02:06.584 And you're not really going to, in the '80s, end capitalism 0:02:06.584,0:02:09.505 by supporting one of these groups. It's a load of nonsense. 0:02:09.505,0:02:12.783 But what you realize, it's got an Achilles' heel. 0:02:12.783,0:02:15.536 The brand has an Achilles' heel. 0:02:15.536,0:02:17.303 We've mentioned the health, 0:02:17.303,0:02:20.983 but it needs consumers to buy into it. 0:02:20.983,0:02:25.063 The consumers it needs are the terrorist constituency. 0:02:25.063,0:02:27.764 They're the people who buy into the brand, support them, 0:02:27.764,0:02:31.072 facilitate them, and they're the people 0:02:31.072,0:02:33.587 we've got to reach out to. 0:02:33.587,0:02:36.447 We've got to attack that brand in front of them. 0:02:36.447,0:02:40.700 There's two essential ways of doing that, if we carry on this brand theme. 0:02:40.700,0:02:43.978 One is reducing their market. What I mean is, 0:02:43.978,0:02:48.754 it's their brand against our brand. We've got to compete. 0:02:48.754,0:02:51.006 We've got to show we're a better product. 0:02:51.006,0:02:54.163 If I'm trying to show we're a better product, 0:02:54.163,0:02:59.094 I probably wouldn't do things like Guantanamo Bay. 0:02:59.094,0:03:02.759 We've talked there about curtailing the underlying need 0:03:02.759,0:03:06.407 for the product itself. You could be looking there at 0:03:06.407,0:03:09.992 poverty, injustice, all those sorts of things 0:03:09.992,0:03:11.521 which feed terrorism. 0:03:11.521,0:03:15.253 The other thing to do is to knock the product, 0:03:15.253,0:03:17.448 attack the brand myth, as we've said. 0:03:17.448,0:03:20.807 You know, there's nothing heroic about killing a young kid. 0:03:20.807,0:03:25.503 Perhaps we need to focus on that and get that message back across. 0:03:25.503,0:03:28.597 We've got to reveal the dangers in the product. 0:03:28.597,0:03:32.246 Our target audience, it's not just the producers of terrorism, 0:03:32.246,0:03:33.447 as I've said, the terrorists. 0:03:33.447,0:03:35.834 It's not just the marketeers of terrorism, 0:03:35.834,0:03:40.641 which is those who finance, those who facilitate it, 0:03:40.641,0:03:42.554 but it's the consumers of terrorism. 0:03:42.554,0:03:45.788 We've got to get in to those homelands. 0:03:45.788,0:03:49.257 That's where they recruit from. That's where they get their power and strength. 0:03:49.257,0:03:51.609 That's where their consumers come from. 0:03:51.609,0:03:55.521 And we have to get our messaging in there. 0:03:55.521,0:03:59.370 So the essentials are, we've got to have interaction 0:03:59.370,0:04:02.713 in those areas, with the terrorists, the facilitators, etc. 0:04:02.713,0:04:05.848 We've got to engage, we've got to educate, 0:04:05.848,0:04:08.651 and we've got to have dialogue. 0:04:08.651,0:04:12.802 Now, staying on this brand thing for just a few more seconds, 0:04:12.802,0:04:16.054 think about delivery mechanisms. 0:04:16.054,0:04:17.687 How are we going to do these attacks? 0:04:17.687,0:04:20.696 Well, reducing the market is really one for governments 0:04:20.696,0:04:24.214 and civil society. We've got to show we're better. 0:04:24.214,0:04:28.056 We've got to show our values. 0:04:28.056,0:04:30.358 We've got to practice what we preach. 0:04:30.358,0:04:32.571 But when it comes to knocking the brand, 0:04:32.571,0:04:37.043 if the terrorists are Coca-Cola and we're Pepsi, 0:04:37.043,0:04:41.057 I don't think, being Pepsi, anything we say about Coca-Cola, 0:04:41.057,0:04:42.939 anyone's going to believe us. 0:04:42.939,0:04:45.264 So we've got to find a different mechanism, 0:04:45.264,0:04:47.656 and one of the best mechanisms I've ever come across 0:04:47.656,0:04:50.313 is the victims of terrorism. 0:04:50.313,0:04:53.226 They are somebody who can actually stand there and say, 0:04:53.226,0:04:57.654 "This product's crap. I had it and I was sick for days. 0:04:57.654,0:05:01.100 It burnt my hand, whatever." You believe them. 0:05:01.100,0:05:03.743 You can see their scars. You trust them. 0:05:03.743,0:05:09.008 But whether it's victims, whether it's governments, 0:05:09.008,0:05:14.713 NGOs, or even the Queen yesterday, in Northern Ireland, 0:05:14.713,0:05:18.815 we have to interact and engage with those different 0:05:18.815,0:05:23.410 layers of terrorism, and, in effect, 0:05:23.410,0:05:27.457 we do have to have a little dance with the devil. 0:05:27.457,0:05:30.440 This is my favorite part of my speech. 0:05:30.440,0:05:33.696 I wanted to blow you all up to try and make a point, 0:05:33.696,0:05:37.418 but — (Laughter) — 0:05:37.418,0:05:40.206 TED, for health and safety reasons, have told me 0:05:40.206,0:05:41.712 I've got to do a countdown, so 0:05:41.712,0:05:45.010 I feel like a bit of an Irish or Jewish terrorist, 0:05:45.010,0:05:50.424 sort of a health and safety terrorist, and I — (Laughter) — 0:05:50.424,0:05:53.733 I've got to count 3, 2, 1, and 0:05:53.733,0:05:57.060 it's a bit alarming, so thinking of what my motto would be, 0:05:57.060,0:05:59.818 and it would be, "Body parts, not heart attacks." 0:05:59.818,0:06:05.309 So 3, 2, 1. (Explosion sound) 0:06:05.309,0:06:10.256 Very good. (Laughter) 0:06:10.256,0:06:18.065 Now, lady in 15J was a suicide bomber amongst us all. 0:06:18.065,0:06:20.190 We're all victims of terrorism. 0:06:20.190,0:06:25.091 There's 625 of us in this room. We're going to be scarred for life. 0:06:25.091,0:06:29.166 There was a father and a son who sat in that seat over there. 0:06:29.166,0:06:31.650 The son's dead. The father lives. 0:06:31.650,0:06:37.571 The father will probably kick himself for years to come 0:06:37.571,0:06:41.810 that he didn't take that seat instead of his kid. 0:06:41.810,0:06:43.823 He's going to take to alcohol, and he's probably 0:06:43.823,0:06:48.183 going to kill himself in three years. That's the stats. 0:06:48.183,0:06:51.927 There's a very young, attractive lady over here, 0:06:51.927,0:06:54.955 and she has something which I think's the worst form 0:06:54.955,0:06:57.751 of psychological, physical injury I've ever seen 0:06:57.751,0:07:01.447 out of a suicide bombing: It's human shrapnel. 0:07:01.447,0:07:03.600 What it means is, when she sat in a restaurant 0:07:03.600,0:07:06.605 in years to come, 10 years to come, 15 years to come, 0:07:06.605,0:07:09.087 or she's on the beach, every so often she's going to start 0:07:09.087,0:07:12.060 rubbing her skin, and out of there will come 0:07:12.060,0:07:14.294 a piece of that shrapnel. 0:07:14.294,0:07:19.526 And that is a hard thing for the head to take. 0:07:19.526,0:07:22.454 There's a lady over there as well who lost her legs 0:07:22.454,0:07:25.966 in this bombing. 0:07:25.966,0:07:30.050 She's going to find out that she gets a pitiful amount 0:07:30.050,0:07:34.157 of money off our government 0:07:34.157,0:07:37.449 for looking after what's happened to her. 0:07:37.449,0:07:39.589 She had a daughter who was going to go to one of the best 0:07:39.589,0:07:42.290 universities. She's going to give up university 0:07:42.290,0:07:46.019 to look after Mum. 0:07:46.019,0:07:48.551 We're all here, and all of those who watch it 0:07:48.551,0:07:51.190 are going to be traumatized by this event, 0:07:51.190,0:07:54.338 but all of you here who are victims are going to learn 0:07:54.338,0:07:55.920 some hard truths. 0:07:55.920,0:08:00.641 That is, our society, we sympathize, but after a while, 0:08:00.641,0:08:04.529 we start to ignore. We don't do enough as a society. 0:08:04.529,0:08:08.106 We do not look after our victims, and we do not enable them, 0:08:08.106,0:08:11.114 and what I'm going to try and show is that actually, 0:08:11.114,0:08:13.898 victims are the best weapon we have 0:08:13.898,0:08:17.074 against more terrorism. 0:08:17.074,0:08:21.290 How would the government at the turn of the millennium 0:08:21.290,0:08:23.515 approach today? Well, we all know. 0:08:23.515,0:08:26.119 What they'd have done then is an invasion. 0:08:26.119,0:08:29.297 If the suicide bomber was from Wales, 0:08:29.297,0:08:31.642 good luck to Wales, I'd say. 0:08:31.642,0:08:35.394 Knee-jerk legislation, emergency provision legislation -- 0:08:35.394,0:08:39.093 which hits at the very basis of our society, as we all know -- 0:08:39.093,0:08:42.266 it's a mistake. 0:08:42.266,0:08:45.721 We're going to drive prejudice throughout Edinburgh, 0:08:45.721,0:08:50.151 throughout the U.K., for Welsh people. 0:08:50.151,0:08:55.796 Today's approach, governments have learned from their mistakes. 0:08:55.796,0:08:58.034 They are looking at what I've started off on, 0:08:58.034,0:09:01.588 on these more asymmetrical approaches to it, 0:09:01.588,0:09:04.290 more modernist views, cause and effect. 0:09:04.290,0:09:07.067 But mistakes of the past are inevitable. 0:09:07.067,0:09:08.567 It's human nature. 0:09:08.567,0:09:12.303 The fear and the pressure to do something on them 0:09:12.303,0:09:14.583 is going to be immense. They are going to make mistakes. 0:09:14.583,0:09:18.228 They're not just going to be smart. 0:09:18.228,0:09:21.542 There was a famous Irish terrorist who once summed up 0:09:21.542,0:09:24.597 the point very beautifully. He said, 0:09:24.597,0:09:26.709 "The thing is, about the British government, is, is that it's got 0:09:26.709,0:09:31.173 to be lucky all the time, and we only have to be lucky once." 0:09:31.173,0:09:34.413 So what we need to do is we have to effect it. 0:09:34.413,0:09:37.169 We've got to start thinking about being more proactive. 0:09:37.169,0:09:41.857 We need to build an arsenal of noncombative weapons 0:09:41.857,0:09:43.478 in this war on terrorism. 0:09:43.478,0:09:51.926 But of course, it's ideas -- is not something that governments do very well. 0:09:51.926,0:09:56.105 I want to go back just to before the bang, to this idea of 0:09:56.105,0:10:00.299 brand, and I was talking about Coke and Pepsi, etc. 0:10:00.299,0:10:04.210 We see it as terrorism versus democracy in that brand war. 0:10:04.210,0:10:06.231 They'll see it as freedom fighters and truth 0:10:06.231,0:10:13.454 against injustice, imperialism, etc. 0:10:13.454,0:10:17.445 We do have to see this as a deadly battlefield. 0:10:17.445,0:10:20.619 It's not just [our] flesh and blood they want. 0:10:20.619,0:10:23.492 They actually want our cultural souls, and that's why 0:10:23.492,0:10:27.503 the brand analogy is a very interesting way of looking at this. 0:10:27.503,0:10:32.083 If we look at al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was essentially 0:10:32.083,0:10:36.623 a product on a shelf in a souk somewhere 0:10:36.623,0:10:38.762 which not many people had heard of. 0:10:38.762,0:10:42.926 9/11 launched it. It was its big marketing day, 0:10:42.926,0:10:47.795 and it was packaged for the 21st century. They knew what they were doing. 0:10:47.795,0:10:51.723 They were effectively [doing] something in this brand image 0:10:51.723,0:10:54.907 of creating a brand which can be franchised around 0:10:54.907,0:11:00.567 the world, where there's poverty, ignorance and injustice. 0:11:00.567,0:11:04.630 We, as I've said, have got to hit that market, 0:11:04.630,0:11:08.089 but we've got to use our heads rather than our might. 0:11:08.089,0:11:11.863 If we perceive it in this way as a brand, or other ways of thinking at it like this, 0:11:11.863,0:11:16.302 we will not resolve or counter terrorism. 0:11:16.302,0:11:19.662 What I'd like to do is just briefly go through a few examples 0:11:19.662,0:11:25.093 from my work on areas where we try and approach these things differently. 0:11:25.093,0:11:28.782 The first one has been dubbed "lawfare," 0:11:28.782,0:11:31.224 for want of a better word. 0:11:31.224,0:11:35.424 When we originally looked at bringing civil actions against terrorists, 0:11:35.424,0:11:37.790 everyone thought we were a bit mad and mavericks 0:11:37.790,0:11:41.554 and crackpots. Now it's got a title. Everyone's doing it. 0:11:41.554,0:11:43.167 There's a bomb, people start suing. 0:11:43.167,0:11:46.858 But one of the first early cases on this was the Omagh Bombing. 0:11:46.858,0:11:50.597 A civil action was brought from 1998. 0:11:50.597,0:11:54.005 In Omagh, bomb went off, Real IRA, 0:11:54.005,0:11:56.220 middle of a peace process. 0:11:56.220,0:12:00.363 That meant that the culprits couldn't really be prosecuted 0:12:00.363,0:12:03.611 for lots of reasons, mostly to do with the peace process 0:12:03.611,0:12:05.828 and what was going on, the greater good. 0:12:05.828,0:12:08.323 It also meant, then, if you can imagine this, 0:12:08.323,0:12:10.626 that the people who bombed your children 0:12:10.626,0:12:15.983 and your husbands were walking around the supermarket 0:12:15.983,0:12:17.667 that you lived in. 0:12:17.667,0:12:21.429 Some of those victims said enough is enough. 0:12:21.429,0:12:24.863 We brought a private action, and thank God, 10 years later, 0:12:24.863,0:12:27.458 we actually won it. There is a slight appeal on 0:12:27.458,0:12:29.273 at the moment so I have to be a bit careful, 0:12:29.273,0:12:31.375 but I'm fairly confident. 0:12:31.390,0:12:33.009 Why was it effective? 0:12:33.009,0:12:35.646 It was effective not just because justice was seen to be done 0:12:35.646,0:12:37.385 where there was a huge void. 0:12:37.385,0:12:42.011 It was because the Real IRA and other terrorist groups, 0:12:42.011,0:12:44.090 their whole strength is from the fact that they are 0:12:44.090,0:12:48.836 an underdog. When we put the victims as the underdog 0:12:48.836,0:12:51.976 and flipped it, they didn't know what to do. 0:12:51.976,0:12:56.227 They were embarrassed. Their recruitment went down. 0:12:56.227,0:13:00.515 The bombs actually stopped -- fact -- because of this action. 0:13:00.515,0:13:04.220 We became, or those victims became, more importantly, 0:13:04.220,0:13:08.196 a ghost that haunted the terrorist organization. 0:13:08.196,0:13:10.995 There's other examples. We have a case called Almog 0:13:10.995,0:13:15.187 which is to do with a bank that was, 0:13:15.187,0:13:18.193 allegedly, from our point of view, 0:13:18.193,0:13:22.108 giving rewards to suicide bombers. 0:13:22.108,0:13:25.116 Just by bringing the very action, 0:13:25.116,0:13:27.627 that bank has stopped doing it, and indeed, 0:13:27.627,0:13:30.031 the powers that be around the world, which for real politic 0:13:30.031,0:13:33.374 reasons before, couldn't actually deal with this issue, 0:13:33.374,0:13:34.904 because there was lots of competing interests, 0:13:34.904,0:13:37.888 have actually closed down those loopholes in the banking system. 0:13:37.888,0:13:40.603 There's another case called the McDonald case, 0:13:40.603,0:13:44.925 where some victims of Semtex, of the Provisional IRA bombings, 0:13:44.925,0:13:51.544 which were supplied by Gaddafi, sued, 0:13:51.544,0:13:56.481 and that action has led to amazing things for new Libya. 0:13:56.481,0:13:59.434 New Libya has been compassionate towards those victims, 0:13:59.434,0:14:03.066 and started taking it -- so it started a whole new dialogue there. 0:14:03.066,0:14:07.349 But the problem is, we need more and more support 0:14:07.349,0:14:10.151 for these ideas and cases. 0:14:10.151,0:14:14.577 Civil affairs and civil society initiatives. 0:14:14.577,0:14:17.104 A good one is in Somalia. There's a war on piracy. 0:14:17.104,0:14:18.910 If anyone thinks you can have a war on piracy 0:14:18.910,0:14:21.536 like a war on terrorism and beat it, you're wrong. 0:14:21.536,0:14:24.523 What we're trying to do there is turn pirates to fisherman. 0:14:24.523,0:14:26.747 They used to be fisherman, of course, 0:14:26.747,0:14:29.943 but we stole their fish and dumped a load of toxic waste 0:14:29.943,0:14:33.238 in their water, so what we're trying to do is create 0:14:33.238,0:14:35.724 security and employment by bringing a coastguard 0:14:35.724,0:14:39.061 along with the fisheries industry, and I can guarantee you, 0:14:39.061,0:14:41.925 as that builds, al Shabaab and such likes will not have 0:14:41.925,0:14:45.749 the poverty and injustice any longer to prey on those people. 0:14:45.749,0:14:49.624 These initiatives cost less than a missile, 0:14:49.624,0:14:52.591 and certainly less than any soldier's life, 0:14:52.591,0:14:55.446 but more importantly, it takes the war to their homelands, 0:14:55.446,0:14:57.744 and not onto our shore, 0:14:57.744,0:14:59.188 and we're looking at the causes. 0:14:59.188,0:15:02.637 The last one I wanted to talk about was dialogue. 0:15:02.637,0:15:05.443 The advantages of dialogue are obvious. 0:15:05.443,0:15:09.745 It self-educates both sides, enables a better understanding, 0:15:09.745,0:15:11.967 reveals the strengths and weaknesses, 0:15:11.967,0:15:14.568 and yes, like some of the speakers before, 0:15:14.568,0:15:18.457 the shared vulnerability does lead to trust, and 0:15:18.457,0:15:21.362 it does then become, that process, part of normalization. 0:15:21.362,0:15:26.035 But it's not an easy road. After the bomb, 0:15:26.035,0:15:29.164 the victims are not into this. 0:15:29.164,0:15:31.058 There's practical problems. 0:15:31.058,0:15:33.954 It's politically risky for the protagonists 0:15:33.954,0:15:36.689 and for the interlocutors. On one occasion 0:15:36.689,0:15:39.130 I was doing it, every time I did a point that they didn't like, 0:15:39.130,0:15:40.991 they actually threw stones at me, 0:15:40.991,0:15:42.978 and when I did a point they liked, 0:15:42.978,0:15:47.573 they starting shooting in the air, equally not great. (Laughter) 0:15:47.573,0:15:50.775 Whatever the point, it gets to the heart of the problem, 0:15:50.775,0:15:52.891 you're doing it, you're talking to them. 0:15:52.891,0:15:56.634 Now, I just want to end with saying, if we follow reason, 0:15:56.634,0:16:01.996 we realize that I think we'd all say that we want to 0:16:01.996,0:16:04.678 have a perception of terrorism which is not just a pure 0:16:04.678,0:16:08.427 military perception of it. 0:16:08.446,0:16:10.903 We need to foster more 0:16:10.903,0:16:13.688 modern and asymmetrical responses to it. 0:16:13.688,0:16:16.243 This isn't about being soft on terrorism. 0:16:16.243,0:16:19.963 It's about fighting them on contemporary battlefields. 0:16:19.963,0:16:22.914 We must foster innovation, as I've said. 0:16:22.914,0:16:26.786 Governments are receptive. It won't come from those dusty corridors. 0:16:26.786,0:16:28.999 The private sector has a role. 0:16:28.999,0:16:31.572 The role we could do right now is going away 0:16:31.572,0:16:35.297 and looking at how we can support victims around the world 0:16:35.297,0:16:36.769 to bring initiatives. 0:16:36.769,0:16:39.572 If I was to leave you with some big questions here which 0:16:39.572,0:16:43.047 may change one's perception to it, and who knows what 0:16:43.047,0:16:45.426 thoughts and responses will come out of it, 0:16:45.426,0:16:49.381 but did myself and my terrorist group actually need 0:16:49.381,0:16:52.617 to blow you up to make our point? 0:16:52.617,0:16:56.999 We have to ask ourselves these questions, however unpalatable. 0:16:56.999,0:17:00.133 Have we been ignoring an injustice or a humanitarian 0:17:00.133,0:17:02.898 struggle somewhere in the world? 0:17:02.898,0:17:05.548 What if, actually, engagement on poverty and injustice 0:17:05.548,0:17:07.963 is exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do? 0:17:07.963,0:17:11.068 What if the bombs are just simply wake-up calls for us? 0:17:11.068,0:17:14.267 What happens if that bomb went off 0:17:14.267,0:17:17.574 because we didn't have any thoughts and things in place 0:17:17.574,0:17:22.253 to allow dialogue to deal with these things and interaction? 0:17:22.253,0:17:25.420 What is definitely uncontroversial 0:17:25.420,0:17:27.227 is that, as I've said, we've got to stop being reactive, 0:17:27.227,0:17:30.844 and more proactive, and I just want to leave you 0:17:30.844,0:17:34.252 with one idea, which is that 0:17:34.252,0:17:37.412 it's a provocative question for you to think about, 0:17:37.412,0:17:41.533 and the answer will require sympathy with the devil. 0:17:41.533,0:17:44.250 It's a question that's been tackled by many great thinkers 0:17:44.250,0:17:49.167 and writers: What if society actually needs crisis to change? 0:17:49.167,0:17:53.470 What if society actually needs terrorism 0:17:53.470,0:17:55.013 to change and adapt for the better? 0:17:55.013,0:17:59.564 It's those Bulgakov themes, it's that picture of Jesus 0:17:59.564,0:18:02.768 and the Devil hand in hand in Gethsemane 0:18:02.768,0:18:05.048 walking into the moonlight. 0:18:05.048,0:18:07.896 What it would mean is that humans, 0:18:07.896,0:18:10.552 in order to survive in development, 0:18:10.552,0:18:12.627 quite Darwinian spirit here, 0:18:12.627,0:18:16.957 inherently must dance with the devil. 0:18:16.957,0:18:21.216 A lot of people say that communism was defeated 0:18:21.216,0:18:25.210 by the Rolling Stones. It's a good theory. 0:18:25.210,0:18:28.046 Maybe the Rolling Stones has a place in this. 0:18:28.046,0:18:30.633 Thank you. 0:18:30.633,0:18:39.503 (Music) (Applause) 0:18:39.503,0:18:42.081 Bruno Giussani: Thank you. (Applause)