1 00:00:00,039 --> 00:00:03,013 Over the last two decades, India has become 2 00:00:03,013 --> 00:00:06,052 a global hub for software development 3 00:00:06,052 --> 00:00:10,079 and offshoring of back office services, as we call it, 4 00:00:10,079 --> 00:00:15,099 and what we were interested in finding out was that 5 00:00:15,099 --> 00:00:19,039 because of this huge industry that has started 6 00:00:19,039 --> 00:00:21,050 over the last two decades in India, 7 00:00:21,050 --> 00:00:24,041 offshoring software development and back office services, 8 00:00:24,041 --> 00:00:26,064 there's been a flight of white collar jobs 9 00:00:26,064 --> 00:00:30,015 from the developed world to India. 10 00:00:30,015 --> 00:00:33,071 When this is combined with the loss of manufacturing jobs 11 00:00:33,071 --> 00:00:37,001 to China, it has, you know, led to considerable angst 12 00:00:37,001 --> 00:00:40,089 amongst the Western populations. 13 00:00:40,089 --> 00:00:43,051 In fact, if you look at polls, they show a declining 14 00:00:43,051 --> 00:00:48,087 trend for support for free trade in the West. 15 00:00:48,087 --> 00:00:51,086 Now, the Western elites, however, have said 16 00:00:51,086 --> 00:00:53,086 this fear is misplaced. 17 00:00:53,086 --> 00:00:56,008 For example, if you have read — I suspect many of you 18 00:00:56,008 --> 00:00:59,040 have done so — read the book by Thomas Friedman 19 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,074 called "The World Is Flat," he said, basically, in his book 20 00:01:02,074 --> 00:01:06,093 that, you know, this fear for free trade is wrong 21 00:01:06,093 --> 00:01:09,067 because it assumes, it's based on a mistaken assumption 22 00:01:09,067 --> 00:01:13,051 that everything that can be invented has been invented. 23 00:01:13,051 --> 00:01:16,037 In fact, he says, it's innovation that will keep the West 24 00:01:16,037 --> 00:01:18,010 ahead of the developing world, 25 00:01:18,010 --> 00:01:21,052 with the more sophisticated, innovative tasks being done 26 00:01:21,052 --> 00:01:24,025 in the developed world, and the less sophisticated, 27 00:01:24,025 --> 00:01:25,083 shall we say, drudge work being done 28 00:01:25,083 --> 00:01:28,099 in the developing world. 29 00:01:28,099 --> 00:01:32,031 Now, what we were trying to understand was, 30 00:01:32,031 --> 00:01:35,007 is this true? 31 00:01:35,007 --> 00:01:38,086 Could India become a source, or a global hub, 32 00:01:38,086 --> 00:01:42,003 of innovation, just like it's become a global hub 33 00:01:42,003 --> 00:01:45,090 for back office services and software development? 34 00:01:45,090 --> 00:01:49,072 And for the last four years, my coauthor Phanish Puranam 35 00:01:49,072 --> 00:01:53,002 and I spent investigating this topic. 36 00:01:53,002 --> 00:01:57,002 Initially, or, you know, as people would say, you know, 37 00:01:57,002 --> 00:01:59,043 in fact the more aggressive people who are supporting 38 00:01:59,043 --> 00:02:01,069 the Western innovative model, say, 39 00:02:01,069 --> 00:02:04,027 "Where are the Indian Googles, iPods and Viagras, 40 00:02:04,027 --> 00:02:08,053 if the Indians are so bloody smart?" (Laughter) 41 00:02:08,053 --> 00:02:10,088 So initially, when we started our research, we went 42 00:02:10,088 --> 00:02:12,098 and met several executives, and we asked them, 43 00:02:12,098 --> 00:02:15,027 "What do you think? Will India go from being a favored 44 00:02:15,027 --> 00:02:18,027 destination for software services and back office services 45 00:02:18,027 --> 00:02:21,037 to a destination for innovation?" 46 00:02:21,037 --> 00:02:23,023 They laughed. They dismissed us. 47 00:02:23,023 --> 00:02:26,030 They said, "You know what? Indians don't do innovation." 48 00:02:26,030 --> 00:02:28,060 The more polite ones said, "Well, you know, Indians 49 00:02:28,060 --> 00:02:31,067 make good software programmers and accountants, 50 00:02:31,067 --> 00:02:34,017 but they can't do the creative stuff." 51 00:02:34,017 --> 00:02:38,083 Sometimes, it took a more, took a veneer of sophistication, 52 00:02:38,083 --> 00:02:41,033 and people said, "You know, it's nothing to do with Indians. 53 00:02:41,033 --> 00:02:44,094 It's really the rule-based, regimented education system 54 00:02:44,094 --> 00:02:49,032 in India that is responsible for killing all creativity." 55 00:02:49,032 --> 00:02:51,086 They said, instead, if you want to see real creativity, 56 00:02:51,086 --> 00:02:53,085 go to Silicon Valley, and look at companies 57 00:02:53,085 --> 00:02:56,051 like Google, Microsoft, Intel. 58 00:02:56,051 --> 00:02:59,005 So we started examining the R&D and innovation labs 59 00:02:59,005 --> 00:03:01,057 of Silicon Valley. 60 00:03:01,057 --> 00:03:03,071 Well, interestingly, what you find there is, 61 00:03:03,071 --> 00:03:06,064 usually you are introduced to the head of the innovation lab 62 00:03:06,064 --> 00:03:08,061 or the R&D center as they may call it, 63 00:03:08,061 --> 00:03:12,024 and more often than not, it's an Indian. (Laughter) 64 00:03:12,024 --> 00:03:15,027 So I immediately said, "Well, but you could not have been 65 00:03:15,027 --> 00:03:16,062 educated in India, right? 66 00:03:16,062 --> 00:03:18,018 You must have gotten your education here." 67 00:03:18,018 --> 00:03:22,004 It turned out, in every single case, 68 00:03:22,004 --> 00:03:26,026 they came out of the Indian educational system. 69 00:03:26,026 --> 00:03:28,075 So we realized that maybe we had the wrong question, 70 00:03:28,075 --> 00:03:31,062 and the right question is, really, can Indians 71 00:03:31,062 --> 00:03:35,042 based out of India do innovative work? 72 00:03:35,042 --> 00:03:37,070 So off we went to India. We made, I think, 73 00:03:37,070 --> 00:03:40,092 about a dozen trips to Bangalore, Mumbai, Gurgaon, 74 00:03:40,092 --> 00:03:43,011 Delhi, Hyderabad, you name it, to examine 75 00:03:43,011 --> 00:03:48,036 what is the level of corporate innovation in these cities. 76 00:03:48,036 --> 00:03:50,094 And what we found was, as we progressed in our research, 77 00:03:50,094 --> 00:03:53,090 was, that we were asking really the wrong question. 78 00:03:53,090 --> 00:03:55,065 When you ask, "Where are the Indian Googles, 79 00:03:55,065 --> 00:03:59,099 iPods and Viagras?" you are taking a particular perspective 80 00:03:59,099 --> 00:04:04,015 on innovation, which is innovation for end users, 81 00:04:04,015 --> 00:04:05,078 visible innovation. 82 00:04:05,078 --> 00:04:09,047 Instead, innovation, if you remember, some of you 83 00:04:09,047 --> 00:04:11,048 may have read the famous economist Schumpeter, 84 00:04:11,048 --> 00:04:13,055 he said, "Innovation is novelty 85 00:04:13,055 --> 00:04:17,031 in how value is created and distributed." 86 00:04:17,031 --> 00:04:19,044 It could be new products and services, 87 00:04:19,044 --> 00:04:21,077 but it could also be new ways of producing products. 88 00:04:21,077 --> 00:04:24,091 It could also be novel ways of organizing firms and industries. 89 00:04:24,091 --> 00:04:28,077 Once you take this, there's no reason to restrict innovation, 90 00:04:28,077 --> 00:04:32,077 the beneficiaries of innovation, just to end users. 91 00:04:32,077 --> 00:04:35,038 When you take this broader conceptualization of innovation, 92 00:04:35,038 --> 00:04:38,072 what we found was, India is well represented 93 00:04:38,072 --> 00:04:42,006 in innovation, but the innovation that is being done in India 94 00:04:42,006 --> 00:04:45,026 is of a form we did not anticipate, and what we did was 95 00:04:45,026 --> 00:04:47,091 we called it "invisible innovation." 96 00:04:47,091 --> 00:04:50,078 And specifically, there are four types of invisible innovation 97 00:04:50,078 --> 00:04:52,098 that are coming out of India. 98 00:04:52,098 --> 00:04:55,068 The first type of invisible innovation out of India 99 00:04:55,068 --> 00:04:58,057 is what we call innovation for business customers, 100 00:04:58,057 --> 00:05:01,042 which is led by the multinational corporations, 101 00:05:01,042 --> 00:05:04,035 which have -- in the last two decades, there have been 102 00:05:04,035 --> 00:05:10,064 750 R&D centers set up in India by multinational companies 103 00:05:10,064 --> 00:05:14,086 employing more than 400,000 professionals. 104 00:05:14,086 --> 00:05:19,012 Now, when you consider the fact that, historically, 105 00:05:19,012 --> 00:05:22,029 the R&D center of a multinational company 106 00:05:22,029 --> 00:05:26,098 was always in the headquarters, or in the country of origin 107 00:05:26,098 --> 00:05:30,088 of that multinational company, to have 750 R&D centers 108 00:05:30,088 --> 00:05:33,025 of multinational corporations in India 109 00:05:33,025 --> 00:05:35,082 is truly a remarkable figure. 110 00:05:35,082 --> 00:05:38,005 When we went and talked to the people in those innovation 111 00:05:38,005 --> 00:05:40,066 centers and asked them what are they working on, 112 00:05:40,066 --> 00:05:42,076 they said, "We are working on global products." 113 00:05:42,076 --> 00:05:45,039 They were not working on localizing global products 114 00:05:45,039 --> 00:05:49,011 for India, which is the usual role of a local R&D. 115 00:05:49,011 --> 00:05:51,061 They were working on truly global products, 116 00:05:51,061 --> 00:05:55,037 and companies like Microsoft, Google, AstraZeneca, 117 00:05:55,037 --> 00:05:58,024 General Electric, Philips, have already answered 118 00:05:58,024 --> 00:06:01,072 in the affirmative the question that from their Bangalore 119 00:06:01,072 --> 00:06:05,067 and Hyderabad R&D centers they are able to produce 120 00:06:05,067 --> 00:06:08,069 products and services for the world. 121 00:06:08,069 --> 00:06:11,036 But of course, as an end user, you don't see that, 122 00:06:11,036 --> 00:06:12,087 because you only see the name of the company, 123 00:06:12,087 --> 00:06:16,064 not where it was developed. 124 00:06:16,064 --> 00:06:19,048 The other thing we were told then was, "Yes, but, you know, 125 00:06:19,048 --> 00:06:21,072 the kind of work that is coming out of the Indian R&D center 126 00:06:21,072 --> 00:06:23,075 cannot be compared to the kind of work that is coming out 127 00:06:23,075 --> 00:06:26,010 of the U.S. R&D centers." 128 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:27,071 So my coauthor Phanish Puranam, who happens to be 129 00:06:27,071 --> 00:06:30,008 one of the smartest people I know, said 130 00:06:30,008 --> 00:06:31,053 he's going to do a study. 131 00:06:31,053 --> 00:06:34,019 What he did was he looked at those companies 132 00:06:34,019 --> 00:06:37,090 that had an R&D center in USA and in India, 133 00:06:37,090 --> 00:06:40,047 and then he looked at a patent that was filed 134 00:06:40,047 --> 00:06:43,018 out of the U.S. and a similar patent filed out of the same 135 00:06:43,018 --> 00:06:45,068 company's subsidiary in India, 136 00:06:45,068 --> 00:06:48,076 so he's now comparing the patents of R&D centers 137 00:06:48,076 --> 00:06:52,077 in the U.S. with R&D centers in India of the same company 138 00:06:52,077 --> 00:06:55,007 to find out what is the quality of the patents filed 139 00:06:55,007 --> 00:06:56,094 out of the Indian centers and how do they compare 140 00:06:56,094 --> 00:06:59,073 with the quality of the patents filed out of the U.S. centers? 141 00:06:59,073 --> 00:07:01,094 Interestingly, what he finds is 142 00:07:01,094 --> 00:07:04,065 — and by the way, the way we look at the quality of a patent 143 00:07:04,065 --> 00:07:07,055 is what we call forward citations: How many times 144 00:07:07,055 --> 00:07:11,072 does a future patent reference the older patent? — 145 00:07:11,072 --> 00:07:14,023 he finds something very interesting. 146 00:07:14,023 --> 00:07:16,091 What we find is that the data says 147 00:07:16,091 --> 00:07:20,010 that the number of forward citations of a patent filed 148 00:07:20,010 --> 00:07:23,051 out of a U.S. R&D subsidiary is identical to the number 149 00:07:23,051 --> 00:07:27,023 of forward citations of a patent filed by an Indian subsidiary 150 00:07:27,023 --> 00:07:29,044 of the same company within that company. 151 00:07:29,044 --> 00:07:32,035 So within the company, there's no difference in the forward 152 00:07:32,035 --> 00:07:34,086 citation rates of their Indian subsidiaries versus 153 00:07:34,086 --> 00:07:35,096 their U.S. subsidiaries. 154 00:07:35,096 --> 00:07:39,078 So that's the first kind of invisible innovation coming out of India. 155 00:07:39,078 --> 00:07:42,033 The second kind of invisible innovation coming out of India 156 00:07:42,033 --> 00:07:46,003 is what we call outsourcing innovation to Indian companies, 157 00:07:46,003 --> 00:07:49,005 where many companies today are contracting 158 00:07:49,005 --> 00:07:52,097 Indian companies to do a major part of their product 159 00:07:52,097 --> 00:07:57,038 development work for their global products 160 00:07:57,038 --> 00:07:59,069 which are going to be sold to the entire world. 161 00:07:59,069 --> 00:08:01,091 For example, in the pharma industry, a lot of the molecules 162 00:08:01,091 --> 00:08:04,051 are being developed, but you see a major part of that work 163 00:08:04,051 --> 00:08:07,006 is being sent to India. 164 00:08:07,006 --> 00:08:10,007 For example, XCL Technologies, 165 00:08:10,007 --> 00:08:12,099 they developed two of the mission critical systems 166 00:08:12,099 --> 00:08:16,019 for the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner, 167 00:08:16,019 --> 00:08:18,091 one to avoid collisions in the sky, 168 00:08:18,091 --> 00:08:22,015 and another to allow landing in zero visibility. 169 00:08:22,015 --> 00:08:24,078 But of course, when you climb onto the Boeing 787, 170 00:08:24,078 --> 00:08:27,016 you are not going to know that this is invisible innovation 171 00:08:27,016 --> 00:08:28,043 out of India. 172 00:08:28,043 --> 00:08:31,044 The third kind of invisible innovation coming out of India 173 00:08:31,044 --> 00:08:34,043 is what we call process innovations, because of an injection 174 00:08:34,043 --> 00:08:37,016 of intelligence by Indian firms. 175 00:08:37,016 --> 00:08:41,042 Process innovation is different from product innovation. 176 00:08:41,042 --> 00:08:44,063 It's about how do you create a new product or develop 177 00:08:44,063 --> 00:08:46,063 a new product or manufacture a new product, 178 00:08:46,063 --> 00:08:48,067 but not a new product itself? 179 00:08:48,067 --> 00:08:53,077 Only in India do millions of young people dream 180 00:08:53,077 --> 00:08:57,096 of working in a call center. 181 00:08:57,096 --> 00:09:00,098 What happens — You know, it's a dead end job in the West, 182 00:09:00,098 --> 00:09:03,031 what high school dropouts do. 183 00:09:03,031 --> 00:09:06,043 What happens when you put hundreds of thousands 184 00:09:06,043 --> 00:09:09,059 of smart, young, ambitious kids 185 00:09:09,059 --> 00:09:11,089 on a call center job? 186 00:09:11,089 --> 00:09:16,079 Very quickly, they get bored, and they start innovating, 187 00:09:16,079 --> 00:09:20,009 and they start telling the boss how to do this job better, and 188 00:09:20,009 --> 00:09:23,030 out of this process innovation comes product innovations, 189 00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:25,003 which are then marketed around the world. 190 00:09:25,003 --> 00:09:27,042 For example, 24/7 Customer, 191 00:09:27,042 --> 00:09:29,071 traditional call center company, used to be a traditional 192 00:09:29,071 --> 00:09:31,055 call center company. Today they're developing 193 00:09:31,055 --> 00:09:35,000 analytical tools to do predictive modeling so that before 194 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,005 you pick up the phone, you can guess 195 00:09:38,005 --> 00:09:44,078 or predict what this phone call is about. 196 00:09:44,078 --> 00:09:47,028 It's because of an injection of intelligence into a process 197 00:09:47,028 --> 00:09:50,010 which was considered dead for a long time in the West. 198 00:09:50,010 --> 00:09:53,041 And the last kind of innovation, invisible innovation 199 00:09:53,041 --> 00:09:56,002 coming out of India is what we call management innovation. 200 00:09:56,002 --> 00:09:57,075 It's not a new product or a new process 201 00:09:57,075 --> 00:10:00,010 but a new way to organize work, 202 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:02,059 and the most significant management innovation to come 203 00:10:02,059 --> 00:10:06,015 out of India, invented by the Indian offshoring industry 204 00:10:06,015 --> 00:10:08,080 is what we call the global delivery model. 205 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,009 What the global delivery model allows is, it allows you 206 00:10:11,009 --> 00:10:14,059 to take previously geographically core-located tasks, 207 00:10:14,059 --> 00:10:17,060 break them up into parts, send them around the world 208 00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:19,061 where the expertise and the cost structure exists, 209 00:10:19,061 --> 00:10:22,044 and then specify the means for reintegrating them. 210 00:10:22,044 --> 00:10:24,057 Without that, you could not have any of the other 211 00:10:24,057 --> 00:10:26,085 invisible innovations today. 212 00:10:26,085 --> 00:10:29,049 So, what I'm trying to say is, what we are finding 213 00:10:29,049 --> 00:10:34,012 in our research is, that if products for end users 214 00:10:34,012 --> 00:10:37,041 is the visible tip of the innovation iceberg, 215 00:10:37,041 --> 00:10:41,033 India is well represented in the invisible, large, 216 00:10:41,033 --> 00:10:46,057 submerged portion of the innovation iceberg. 217 00:10:46,057 --> 00:10:51,053 Now, this has, of course, some implications, 218 00:10:51,053 --> 00:10:55,077 and so we developed three implications of this research. 219 00:10:55,077 --> 00:10:59,001 The first is what we called sinking skill ladder, 220 00:10:59,001 --> 00:11:01,073 and now I'm going to go back to where I started my 221 00:11:01,073 --> 00:11:04,095 conversation with you, which was about the flight of jobs. 222 00:11:04,095 --> 00:11:08,008 Now, of course, when we first, as a multinational company, 223 00:11:08,008 --> 00:11:10,090 decide to outsource jobs to India in the R&D, 224 00:11:10,090 --> 00:11:14,034 what we are going to do is we are going to outsource the 225 00:11:14,034 --> 00:11:17,042 bottom rung of the ladder to India, the least sophisticated jobs, 226 00:11:17,042 --> 00:11:20,063 just like Tom Friedman would predict. 227 00:11:20,063 --> 00:11:23,035 Now, what happens is, when you outsource the bottom rung 228 00:11:23,035 --> 00:11:28,017 of the ladder to India for innovation and for R&D work, 229 00:11:28,017 --> 00:11:31,040 at some stage in the very near future you are going to have 230 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,054 to confront a problem, 231 00:11:33,054 --> 00:11:35,043 which is where does the next step 232 00:11:35,043 --> 00:11:38,069 of the ladder people come from within your company? 233 00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:41,059 So you have two choices then: 234 00:11:41,059 --> 00:11:43,077 Either you bring the people from India into 235 00:11:43,077 --> 00:11:46,068 the developed world to take positions in the next step 236 00:11:46,068 --> 00:11:49,042 of the ladder — immigration — 237 00:11:49,042 --> 00:11:51,086 or you say, there's so many people in the bottom step 238 00:11:51,086 --> 00:11:54,050 of the ladder waiting to take the next position in India, 239 00:11:54,050 --> 00:11:58,073 why don't we move the next step to India? 240 00:11:58,073 --> 00:12:00,068 What we are trying to say is 241 00:12:00,068 --> 00:12:05,091 that once you outsource the bottom end of the ladder, you -- 242 00:12:05,091 --> 00:12:08,061 it's a self-perpetuating act, because of the sinking skill ladder, 243 00:12:08,061 --> 00:12:11,034 and the sinking skill ladder is simply the point that 244 00:12:11,034 --> 00:12:13,049 you can't be an investment banker 245 00:12:13,049 --> 00:12:15,048 without having been an analyst once. 246 00:12:15,048 --> 00:12:17,075 You can't be a professor without having been a student. 247 00:12:17,075 --> 00:12:20,061 You can't be a consultant without having been a research associate. 248 00:12:20,061 --> 00:12:23,020 So, if you outsource the least sophisticated jobs, 249 00:12:23,020 --> 00:12:27,047 at some stage, the next step of the ladder has to follow. 250 00:12:27,047 --> 00:12:29,032 The second thing we bring up is what we call 251 00:12:29,032 --> 00:12:32,068 the browning of the TMT, the top management teams. 252 00:12:32,068 --> 00:12:35,032 If the R&D talent is going to be based out of India 253 00:12:35,032 --> 00:12:37,056 and China, and the largest growth markets 254 00:12:37,056 --> 00:12:39,080 are going to be based out of India and China, 255 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,053 you have to confront the problem that 256 00:12:41,053 --> 00:12:43,013 your top management of the future 257 00:12:43,015 --> 00:12:46,016 is going to have to come out of India and China, 258 00:12:46,016 --> 00:12:47,099 because that's where the product leadership is, 259 00:12:47,099 --> 00:12:50,015 that's where the important market leadership is. 260 00:12:50,015 --> 00:12:52,093 Right? And the last thing we point out in this slide, 261 00:12:52,093 --> 00:12:56,036 which is, you know, that to this story, there's one caveat. 262 00:12:56,036 --> 00:13:00,042 India has the youngest growing population in the world. 263 00:13:00,042 --> 00:13:04,072 This demographic dividend is incredible, but paradoxically, 264 00:13:04,072 --> 00:13:07,011 there's also the mirage of mighty labor pools. 265 00:13:07,011 --> 00:13:10,004 Indian institutes and educational system, 266 00:13:10,004 --> 00:13:12,097 with a few exceptions, are incapable of producing students 267 00:13:12,097 --> 00:13:15,047 in the quantity and quality needed 268 00:13:15,047 --> 00:13:18,001 to keep this innovation engine going, 269 00:13:18,001 --> 00:13:21,022 so companies are finding innovative ways to overcome this, 270 00:13:21,022 --> 00:13:23,082 but in the end it does not absolve the government 271 00:13:23,082 --> 00:13:28,029 of the responsibility for creating this educational structure. 272 00:13:28,029 --> 00:13:31,062 So finally, I want to conclude 273 00:13:31,062 --> 00:13:34,094 by showing you the profile of one company, IBM. 274 00:13:34,094 --> 00:13:37,031 As many of you know, IBM has always been considered 275 00:13:37,031 --> 00:13:39,029 for the last hundred years to be one of the most 276 00:13:39,029 --> 00:13:40,056 innovative companies. 277 00:13:40,056 --> 00:13:43,031 In fact, if you look at the number of patents filed over history, 278 00:13:43,031 --> 00:13:45,071 I think they are in the top or the top two or three companies 279 00:13:45,071 --> 00:13:49,041 in the world of all patents filed in the USA as a private company. 280 00:13:49,041 --> 00:13:51,091 Here is the profile of employees of 281 00:13:51,091 --> 00:13:55,084 IBM over the last decade. 282 00:13:55,084 --> 00:13:58,059 In 2003, they had 300,000 employees, 283 00:13:58,059 --> 00:14:02,068 or 330,000 employees, out of which, 135,000 284 00:14:02,068 --> 00:14:06,027 were in America, 9,000 were in India. 285 00:14:06,027 --> 00:14:11,030 In 2009, they had 400,000 employees, by which time 286 00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:13,087 the U.S. employees had moved to 105,000, 287 00:14:13,087 --> 00:14:17,014 whereas the Indian employees had gone to 100,000. 288 00:14:17,014 --> 00:14:20,016 Well, in 2010, they decided they're not going to reveal 289 00:14:20,016 --> 00:14:22,048 this data anymore, so I had to make some estimates 290 00:14:22,048 --> 00:14:23,088 based on various sources. 291 00:14:23,088 --> 00:14:26,052 Here are my best guesses. Okay? I'm not saying 292 00:14:26,052 --> 00:14:27,098 this is the exact number, it's my best guess. 293 00:14:27,098 --> 00:14:29,060 It gives you a sense of the trend. 294 00:14:29,060 --> 00:14:34,023 There are 433,000 people now at IBM, out of which 295 00:14:34,023 --> 00:14:36,083 98,000 are remaining in the U.S., 296 00:14:36,083 --> 00:14:40,039 and 150,000 are in India. 297 00:14:40,039 --> 00:14:43,051 So you tell me, is IBM an American company, 298 00:14:43,051 --> 00:14:47,057 or an Indian company? (Laughter) 299 00:14:47,057 --> 00:14:52,020 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. (Applause)