WEBVTT 00:00:01.250 --> 00:00:02.450 民主 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:06.186 活喺西方社會嘅我哋犯咗個好大嘅錯 00:00:06.186 --> 00:00:08.250 就係視民主理所當然 00:00:08.250 --> 00:00:10.796 雖然民主係一朵最脆弱嘅花 00:00:10.796 --> 00:00:13.990 但我哋冇將民主視為一朵最脆弱嘅花 00:00:13.990 --> 00:00:16.960 我哋反而視佢為社會嘅擺設品 00:00:17.780 --> 00:00:22.150 我哋往往覺得佢係必然嘅 00:00:22.680 --> 00:00:27.926 我哋以為資本主義會帶嚟民主 00:00:27.926 --> 00:00:29.190 但唔係 NOTE Paragraph 00:00:29.190 --> 00:00:33.610 新加坡前總理李光耀 同埋北京一班好似佢咁嘅人 00:00:33.610 --> 00:00:34.710 說服到人 00:00:34.710 --> 00:00:40.536 繁華嘅資本市場同顯著嘅增長 00:00:40.536 --> 00:00:45.902 係絕對可以出現喺極權政體裏面 00:00:46.152 --> 00:00:51.478 事實上，民主喺歐洲一帶倒退緊 NOTE Paragraph 00:00:52.080 --> 00:00:55.380 今年初，我代表希臘 00:00:55.380 --> 00:00:58.190 代表當時啱啱新選出嘅希臘政府 00:00:58.190 --> 00:01:00.870 以財長身份出席歐元集團會議 00:01:00.870 --> 00:01:03.980 我被清楚告知 00:01:03.980 --> 00:01:07.250 希臘嘅民主進程、我哋嘅選舉 00:01:07.250 --> 00:01:09.006 唔可以干預 00:01:09.006 --> 00:01:13.050 希臘即將被落實嘅經濟政策 00:01:13.050 --> 00:01:17.166 當時我覺得李光耀或者中國共產黨 00:01:17.166 --> 00:01:20.050 都唔會有更加好嘅辯護藉口 00:01:20.050 --> 00:01:23.856 而且有幾個固執嘅朋友不斷同我講 00:01:23.856 --> 00:01:26.640 如果民主真係可以改變任何嘢 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:28.260 民主就會被打壓 NOTE Paragraph 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:32.860 今晚喺度，我想同你哋講 00:01:32.860 --> 00:01:36.470 一個真正民主社會底下嘅經濟情況 00:01:36.470 --> 00:01:41.380 我想請大家同我一齊再次睇清楚 00:01:41.380 --> 00:01:47.280 李光耀、中國共產黨同埋歐元集團 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:51.240 以為我哋可以分配民主 00:01:51.670 --> 00:01:52.940 但我哋真正要嘅 00:01:52.940 --> 00:01:55.420 係一個真正、多人參與嘅民主 00:01:55.420 --> 00:02:01.206 冇咗民主，我哋社會會唔掂 00:02:01.206 --> 00:02:06.100 未來會暗淡，新科技亦都會浪費 NOTE Paragraph 00:02:06.100 --> 00:02:07.290 講起浪費 00:02:07.290 --> 00:02:13.135 等我指出一個好有趣 會要脅我哋經濟嘅悖論 00:02:13.135 --> 00:02:15.390 我叫佢做「雙峰悖論」 00:02:15.390 --> 00:02:18.416 第一個峰你哋知道嘅 00:02:18.416 --> 00:02:22.150 就係喺美國，歐洲，以至全球 00:02:22.150 --> 00:02:26.270 債台高築構成長期陰霾 00:02:26.270 --> 00:02:28.710 我哋知道有好多債務 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:33.240 但好少人意識到佢有個孖生兄弟 00:02:33.630 --> 00:02:40.290 一座由有錢人同大機構嘅閑置資金 砌出嚟嘅山峰 00:02:40.950 --> 00:02:47.036 佢哋唔夠膽投資佢哋嘅存款 去一啲製造營利嘅生產活動度 00:02:47.040 --> 00:02:50.096 呢啲生產活動其實可以償還債務 00:02:50.096 --> 00:02:53.970 仲可以製造人類急需要用嘅嘢 00:02:53.970 --> 00:02:55.660 例如可再生能源 NOTE Paragraph 00:02:55.660 --> 00:02:58.070 依家，我想講兩個數字 00:02:58.070 --> 00:02:59.310 喺過去三個月入面 00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:06.636 我哋喺美國，英國同歐元區 各種可以製造財富嘅商品 00:03:06.636 --> 00:03:09.446 總共投資咗 3.4 萬億美元 00:03:09.446 --> 00:03:13.680 好似有工廠、機械廠、寫字樓 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:17.710 學校、道路、鐵路、機械等 00:03:17.710 --> 00:03:20.656 3.4 萬億美元聽落好似好多錢 00:03:20.656 --> 00:03:24.470 直至你攞佢同 5.1 萬億美元比較 00:03:24.470 --> 00:03:26.090 呢一筆 5.1 萬億嘅資金 00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:29.100 喺同一批國家嘅金融機構裏面 00:03:29.100 --> 00:03:30.940 除咗加劇股票市場通脹 00:03:30.940 --> 00:03:32.430 令房價上升之外 00:03:33.440 --> 00:03:38.290 喺同一期間就再冇發揮過任何作用 NOTE Paragraph 00:03:38.290 --> 00:03:43.420 所以呢，一座債務嘅山 同一座閑置現金嘅山 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:45.200 形成兩座山峰 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:50.080 兩者都冇通過正常市場運作抵消對方 NOTE Paragraph 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:52.800 結果造成薪酬停滯 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:56.040 喺美國，日本同歐洲 00:03:56.040 --> 00:04:00.510 就有超過四分之一 介乎 25 至 54 歲嘅人冇工做 00:04:00.510 --> 00:04:05.156 跟住，經濟總需求就會 進入永無止境嘅減退周期 00:04:05.160 --> 00:04:08.340 令投資者對前景更悲觀 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:12.670 投資者怕咗低需求量 於是唔再投資 00:04:12.670 --> 00:04:15.360 就好似伊底帕斯王嘅老竇 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.435 被神預言佢個仔大個之後會殺死佢 00:04:19.435 --> 00:04:20.470 佢好驚 00:04:20.470 --> 00:04:22.996 但佢亦無意中營造咗被殺嘅條件出嚟 00:04:22.996 --> 00:04:26.110 令佢個仔伊底帕斯王真係殺咗佢 NOTE Paragraph 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.220 呢個就係我對資本主義嘅爭論 00:04:29.220 --> 00:04:31.120 資本主義造成浪費 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.526 資本主義之下閑置嘅錢早就應該 00:04:34.526 --> 00:04:38.376 用嚟提高人類生活水平、發展人才 00:04:38.376 --> 00:04:42.166 同埋資助開發可再生能源科技 00:04:42.166 --> 00:04:45.580 呢啲科技對保護地球好重要 NOTE Paragraph 00:04:46.280 --> 00:04:49.490 咁民主可唔可以扭轉呢一切？ 00:04:49.490 --> 00:04:50.300 我相信得 00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:54.046 但行動之前，我哋要知究竟咩係民主 00:04:54.526 --> 00:04:56.770 亞里士多德定義民主做︰ 00:04:56.770 --> 00:05:04.320 當自由嘅人同窮人 佔體制大多數控制政府 00:05:05.140 --> 00:05:08.240 當然，雅典時代嘅民主 將太多人排除在外 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:11.920 當中包括女人、移民、奴隸 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:14.066 但係，如果因為呢啲被排除嘅人 00:05:14.070 --> 00:05:16.840 而忽視古雅典民主嘅成功之處 00:05:16.840 --> 00:05:19.050 咁係錯嘅 NOTE Paragraph 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:21.766 雅典民主裏邊更值得肯定嘅係 00:05:21.766 --> 00:05:24.770 而且就算時至今日仍然值得肯定嘅係 00:05:24.770 --> 00:05:28.210 佢囊括埋勞動階級 00:05:28.210 --> 00:05:33.020 令佢哋唔單止有言論自由嘅權利 00:05:33.020 --> 00:05:37.996 更重要、更重要嘅係 佢哋有權批評政治 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:44.076 而且佢哋嘅意見 對國家決策係同等重要 00:05:44.080 --> 00:05:47.110 古雅典民主持續咗唔係好耐 00:05:47.110 --> 00:05:51.380 就好似一枝好光嘅蠟燭好快就燒完 00:05:51.380 --> 00:05:52.350 的而且確 00:05:52.350 --> 00:05:57.020 現今嘅自由民主唔係嚟自古雅典 00:05:57.020 --> 00:06:02.756 佢哋源自 1688 年 光榮革命時期嘅美國憲法 00:06:02.756 --> 00:06:04.996 或者嚟自大憲章 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.850 而雅典民主關注嘅係普通平民 00:06:09.850 --> 00:06:12.530 授權予貧苦勞動階級 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:17.390 我哋嘅自由民主 建立喺大憲章嘅傳統上面 00:06:17.390 --> 00:06:20.520 但點都好，大憲章都係有錢人嘅憲章 00:06:20.520 --> 00:06:24.780 當政治領域同經濟領域分開 00:06:24.780 --> 00:06:28.710 而民主進程受制於政治領域裏面時 00:06:28.710 --> 00:06:31.716 經濟領域，或者商業世界 00:06:31.716 --> 00:06:37.560 就會變成一個冇民主成份嘅地方 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.860 咁樣，自由民主先會出現 NOTE Paragraph 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:48.160 我哋今時今日嘅民主 將經濟由政治領域分出嚟 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.510 呢一切開始發生嘅時候 00:06:50.510 --> 00:06:54.820 亦同時引發兩者之間 無可避免嘅長期戰爭 00:06:54.820 --> 00:06:58.010 經濟領域殖民統治政治領域 00:06:58.010 --> 00:07:00.480 經濟領域將政治領域嘅權利吞噬 NOTE Paragraph 00:07:00.490 --> 00:07:01.560 你哋有冇諗過點解 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.560 宜家嘅政治家同以前嘅佢哋唔同？ 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:06.950 唔係因為佢哋 DNA 變咗 NOTE Paragraph 00:07:06.950 --> 00:07:08.590 （笑聲） NOTE Paragraph 00:07:08.590 --> 00:07:13.250 而係因為依家 喺政府做嘢嘅人已經冇權力 00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:15.820 因為權力已經從政治領域轉移到 00:07:15.820 --> 00:07:18.190 同政治領域無關嘅經濟領域 NOTE Paragraph 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:23.086 講真，以上就係我憎資本主義嘅地方 00:07:23.086 --> 00:07:29.120 你諗下，好似一班肉食動物 NOTE Paragraph 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:34.560 殺死咗大量佢哋懶以生存嘅獵物 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.600 最後唯有自己挨餓 NOTE Paragraph 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:37.550 同樣道理 00:07:37.550 --> 00:07:41.580 經濟領域殖民同吞食咗政治領域 00:07:41.580 --> 00:07:44.990 喺呢種情況下佢其實削弱嘅係自己 00:07:44.990 --> 00:07:46.790 令自己面臨經濟危機 00:07:46.790 --> 00:07:51.206 企業勢力崛起緊，但政治勢力減緊 00:07:51.206 --> 00:07:53.110 唔平等嘅問題加劇緊 00:07:53.110 --> 00:07:54.640 總需求又下跌梗 00:07:54.640 --> 00:08:00.760 企業總裁怕投資自己公司啲錢去第度 NOTE Paragraph 00:08:01.520 --> 00:08:08.120 資本主義越係將人從民主裏面剔除 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:11.406 兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰就會越嚟越高 00:08:11.406 --> 00:08:15.136 人力資源同人類財富亦會越嚟越浪費 NOTE Paragraph 00:08:15.640 --> 00:08:18.496 好明顯，如果咁樣嘅推測係啱嘅話 00:08:18.500 --> 00:08:21.570 我哋就必須要合返埋政治同經濟領域 00:08:21.570 --> 00:08:25.096 最好可以畀人民控制大局 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:26.530 就好似古雅典一樣 00:08:26.530 --> 00:08:31.320 但奴隸、女人同移民唔包括在內 NOTE Paragraph 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:33.820 呢樣嘢並唔係咩新概念 00:08:33.820 --> 00:08:36.629 馬克思主義者一百年前就有咁嘅諗法 00:08:36.629 --> 00:08:38.840 但佢哋嘅諗法唔係發展得好好 NOTE Paragraph 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:42.240 我哋從蘇聯解體學到 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:48.530 只有奇蹟先可以 令勞動階層重新獲得權力 00:08:48.530 --> 00:08:54.676 就好似古代雅典冇帶嚟 新形式嘅暴行同浪費咁 NOTE Paragraph 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.760 但有一個解决辦法：消滅勞動階層 00:08:59.370 --> 00:09:00.806 資本主義正係做緊呢樣嘢 00:09:00.806 --> 00:09:04.160 佢通過自動程式、安卓系統、機械人 00:09:04.160 --> 00:09:05.990 取代低薪嘅勞動力 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:11.056 問題係只要經濟同政治領域一直分離 00:09:11.056 --> 00:09:16.600 自動化過程會令 兩座負債同閑錢嘅山峰更加高 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.400 加劇浪費，同埋加深社會矛盾 00:09:20.400 --> 00:09:25.996 我相信中國呢類地方會好快發生咁嘅事 NOTE Paragraph 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.100 因此我哋要改造 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:32.740 我哋要將經濟領域同政治領域拉返埋 00:09:32.740 --> 00:09:38.180 方法就係將兩個領域民主化 00:09:38.180 --> 00:09:43.910 以免我哋最終生活喺 一個監控狂、超專制嘅制度下 00:09:43.910 --> 00:09:47.960 如果唔係《駭客任務》電影 就好容易變成紀錄片 NOTE Paragraph 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:49.540 （笑聲） NOTE Paragraph 00:09:49.540 --> 00:09:55.870 問題唔係資本主義可以承受 自己帶嚟嘅科技創新 00:09:55.870 --> 00:09:57.540 最令我感興趣嘅係 00:09:57.540 --> 00:10:03.330 資本主義會唔會畀《駭客任務》 入面嘅敵托邦取代 00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:07.750 又或者好似《星際迷航》嘅社會取代 00:10:07.750 --> 00:10:10.160 《星際迷航》裏面，機械服務人類 00:10:10.160 --> 00:10:14.560 而人類就擴張能量，探索星際 00:10:14.560 --> 00:10:18.860 同埋喺一啲類似 古雅典嘅高科技集會度 00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:23.190 喋喋不休咁討論人生意義 NOTE Paragraph 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.110 我覺得我哋可以樂觀啲睇 00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:35.836 但要擁有《星際迷航》嘅烏托邦 或者《駭客任務》嘅敵托邦 00:10:35.836 --> 00:10:37.660 我哋要做啲咩呢？ NOTE Paragraph 00:10:38.350 --> 00:10:42.546 等我略略講下幾個例子 NOTE Paragraph 00:10:43.030 --> 00:10:47.246 企業層面上，你可以想像一個資金市場 00:10:47.246 --> 00:10:50.880 喺嗰度，你只要工作就可以賺取資金 00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:54.150 即使你轉工、轉公司 00:10:54.150 --> 00:10:57.796 你賺嘅資金都會跟住你 00:10:57.796 --> 00:11:07.370 而每間公司都係由嗰度做嘢嘅人持有 00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:12.136 所有收入嚟自資本同利潤 00:11:12.136 --> 00:11:16.450 僱傭概念最後會過時 00:11:16.450 --> 00:11:23.386 唔會再有人擁有但冇為公司工作 00:11:23.386 --> 00:11:26.400 或者冇擁有公司但為公司工作 00:11:26.400 --> 00:11:30.280 唔會再有資本階級 同勞動階級之間嘅鬥爭 00:11:30.280 --> 00:11:34.600 投資、儲蓄之間再唔會有大嘅差距 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.630 亦再冇兩座高聳入雲嘅賃務同閑錢嘅山 NOTE Paragraph 00:11:38.630 --> 00:11:40.960 至於全球政治型經濟層面 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:42.900 可以想像一下 00:11:42.900 --> 00:11:45.210 我哋國家貨幣同一個 00:11:45.210 --> 00:11:51.690 由國際貨幣基金組織同 G20 峰會 代表全人類發行嘅全球性數碼貨幣 00:11:51.690 --> 00:11:59.626 有自由浮動匯率 00:11:59.626 --> 00:12:00.750 再想像下 00:12:00.750 --> 00:12:05.200 所有國際貿易都用呢隻貨幣進行 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.746 我哋就稱佢為「宇宙幣」 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:16.370 每個政府都會根據自己國家 貿易逆差或者順差 00:12:16.370 --> 00:12:23.720 向一個共同基金按比例投入宇宙幣 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:28.976 想像呢個基金用嚟投資 全世界可再生能源科技 00:12:28.976 --> 00:12:34.680 尤其投資到世界上資金唔到嘅地方 NOTE Paragraph 00:12:34.680 --> 00:12:36.410 呢個唔係新構思 00:12:36.410 --> 00:12:40.400 實際上，佢係由凱恩斯 1944 年 00:12:40.400 --> 00:12:43.580 喺布列敦森林會議上提出嘅 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:48.646 問題係當時佢哋冇科技實現呢個理念 00:12:48.646 --> 00:12:49.790 但依家我哋有啦 00:12:49.790 --> 00:12:56.110 尤其當政治同經濟領域重新走埋一齊 NOTE Paragraph 00:12:56.640 --> 00:13:01.596 我描述梗嘅呢個世界同時係自由嘅 00:13:01.596 --> 00:13:07.230 佢將被賜權力嘅人 同馬克思主義者擺喺首位 00:13:07.230 --> 00:13:08.150 因為咁樣 00:13:08.150 --> 00:13:13.030 資本同勞動階層之間嘅分別 同埋凱恩斯主義 00:13:13.030 --> 00:13:16.880 會消失喺歷史長河裏面 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:19.810 但總言之 00:13:19.810 --> 00:13:25.260 呢個係一個我哋能夠 想像到真正民主嘅世界 NOTE Paragraph 00:13:25.760 --> 00:13:28.390 咁嘅世界會唔會出現呢？ 00:13:28.390 --> 00:13:32.810 或者我哋會淪落到好似 《黑客帝國》咁嘅反烏德邦？ 00:13:32.810 --> 00:13:37.220 答案就喺我哋大家 要做嘅政治決擇入面 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:39.230 呢個係我哋嘅選擇 00:13:39.230 --> 00:13:42.200 而我哋最好用民主方式決定 NOTE Paragraph 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:43.220 多謝 NOTE Paragraph 00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:46.890 （掌聲） NOTE Paragraph 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:51.880 主持︰瓦魯法基斯⋯ 00:13:51.880 --> 00:13:57.240 你喺自我介紹入面叫自己做 自由派馬克思主義者 00:13:58.400 --> 00:14:01.590 咁分析馬克思主義 同現今世界有咩關係呢？ NOTE Paragraph 00:14:01.590 --> 00:14:04.370 講者：如果我投先講嘅内容 有相關嘅地方 00:14:04.370 --> 00:14:06.120 咁馬克思主義就係有參考價值 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:10.090 因為重新連起政治 同經濟領域嘅重點係 00:14:10.090 --> 00:14:11.180 如果我哋唔做 00:14:11.180 --> 00:14:15.970 咁科技創新就會導致總需求大幅下跌 NOTE Paragraph 00:14:15.970 --> 00:14:20.670 亦即係 Larry Summers 所講嘅經濟長期停滯 00:14:20.670 --> 00:14:23.580 隨住危機由世界某一度向外擴散 00:14:23.580 --> 00:14:25.110 就好似而家咁 00:14:25.110 --> 00:14:27.840 佢唔單止令我哋嘅民主制度唔穩定 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.040 仲會沖擊唔係特别歡迎 自由民主嘅發展中國家 00:14:32.040 --> 00:14:35.920 如果呢個論述成立嘅話 咁馬克思主義絕對係相關嘅 00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:37.720 而哈耶克論述都係 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.470 呢樣就係點解我係 自由派馬克思主義者 00:14:39.470 --> 00:14:40.610 凱恩斯都係 00:14:40.610 --> 00:14:42.710 所以我自己都係矇查查 NOTE Paragraph 00:14:42.710 --> 00:14:43.930 （笑聲） NOTE Paragraph 00:14:43.930 --> 00:14:44.760 主持：確實係 00:14:44.760 --> 00:14:46.480 但可能我哋依家都係咁添 NOTE Paragraph 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:47.836 （笑聲） NOTE Paragraph 00:14:47.836 --> 00:14:49.210 （掌聲） NOTE Paragraph 00:14:49.210 --> 00:14:52.220 講者︰如果你冇覺得困惑嘅話 即係代表你冇喺度思考。得唔得？ NOTE Paragraph 00:14:52.220 --> 00:14:54.840 主持︰真係好希臘哲學家嘅講法 NOTE Paragraph 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:56.830 講者：應該係愛因斯坦至真 NOTE Paragraph 00:14:56.830 --> 00:14:58.820 主持：你提到新加坡同中國 00:14:58.820 --> 00:15:01.400 仲有琴晚喺演講嘉賓晚宴 00:15:01.400 --> 00:15:06.620 你對西方點樣看待中國一事上 表達咗強烈嘅觀點 00:15:06.620 --> 00:15:08.390 你想唔想同我哋講下？ NOTE Paragraph 00:15:08.390 --> 00:15:11.400 講者：嗯，偽善嘅面孔有好多 00:15:11.400 --> 00:15:13.830 而喺我哋自由民主制度之下 00:15:13.830 --> 00:15:15.720 我哋有虛有其表嘅民主 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:17.420 因為正如我剛才所講 00:15:17.420 --> 00:15:20.040 我哋框死咗民主喺政治領域裏面 00:15:20.040 --> 00:15:23.500 以致當去到經濟領域時 00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:27.296 所有動作都係唔民主嘅 NOTE Paragraph 00:15:27.296 --> 00:15:28.480 可以咁講 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.680 激進啲咁講 00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:36.190 中國今時今日就好似 19 世紀嘅英國 00:15:36.190 --> 00:15:37.510 因為記得當時 00:15:37.510 --> 00:15:39.840 我哋將自由主義同民主唥埋一齊 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.050 但呢個係歷史上嘅錯誤 00:15:42.050 --> 00:15:43.890 自由主義就好似 John Stuart Mill 所諗 00:15:43.890 --> 00:15:48.600 John Stuart Mill 對民主進程特別懷疑 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.980 宜家你見到嘅中國 同工業革命時期嘅英國— 00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:57.280 尤其是由第一次到第二次 工業革命過渡期嘅英國 00:15:57.280 --> 00:16:00.250 有一個非常相似嘅過程 00:16:00.250 --> 00:16:06.856 用西方社會 19 世紀 做過嘅事嚟斥責中國 00:16:06.856 --> 00:16:08.340 實在太虚偽啦 NOTE Paragraph 00:16:09.520 --> 00:16:13.070 主持：我相信在座好多人都對你今年初 00:16:13.070 --> 00:16:15.840 出任希臘財政部長嘅經歷好奇 NOTE Paragraph 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:17.555 講者：我都知你會問呢個問題 NOTE Paragraph 00:16:17.555 --> 00:16:18.365 主持：冇錯 00:16:18.365 --> 00:16:22.710 咁六個月之後，你點睇頭半年嘅經歷？ 00:16:23.868 --> 00:16:26.848 講者：就我個人嚟講，係非常興奮 00:16:26.848 --> 00:16:27.840 亦非常失望 NOTE Paragraph 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.690 因為我哋有機會重振歐元區 00:16:31.690 --> 00:16:33.810 不單只希臘，而係歐元區 00:16:33.810 --> 00:16:36.500 令成個區走出自滿 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:39.536 同唔再拒絕承認… 00:16:39.536 --> 00:16:44.416 宜家有一條結構性嘅裂痕 横跨成個歐元區 00:16:44.416 --> 00:16:48.663 威脅到歐盟發展 NOTE Paragraph 00:16:48.663 --> 00:16:51.923 我哋曾經喺希臘項目裏面 有咁嘅機會做好去 00:16:51.923 --> 00:16:58.847 呢個希臘項目係第一個計劃 解决呢啲拒認嘅問題 00:16:58.847 --> 00:17:00.130 不幸嘅係 00:17:00.130 --> 00:17:02.040 歐元區嘅權勢 00:17:02.040 --> 00:17:03.969 歐元集團嘅權勢 00:17:03.969 --> 00:17:05.949 仍然選擇繼續否認問題存在 NOTE Paragraph 00:17:05.949 --> 00:17:07.249 但你知道有嘢會發生 00:17:07.249 --> 00:17:09.440 蘇聯嘅經驗已經講咗畀我哋知 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.515 如果你想令根本生存唔到嘅經濟系统 00:17:13.515 --> 00:17:18.000 通過政治意願或者 威權主義嘅方式繼續生存 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.750 你可能成功將佢延長壽命 00:17:20.750 --> 00:17:22.320 但係當改變來臨時 00:17:22.320 --> 00:17:24.950 事情就會好突然，而且災難性 NOTE Paragraph 00:17:24.950 --> 00:17:26.901 主持︰你希望見到咩變化？ NOTE Paragraph 00:17:26.901 --> 00:17:28.159 講者：嗯，無容置疑 00:17:28.159 --> 00:17:30.621 如果我哋唔改變歐元區嘅架構 00:17:30.621 --> 00:17:32.530 歐元區係唔會有將來 NOTE Paragraph 00:17:32.530 --> 00:17:33.920 主持：當你做希臘財長嗰時 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:35.480 你有冇做過錯誤嘅决定？ NOTE Paragraph 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:36.980 講者：日日都有 NOTE Paragraph 00:17:36.980 --> 00:17:39.646 主持：例如？ 講者：任何人面對過去… NOTE Paragraph 00:17:39.646 --> 00:17:44.130 （掌聲） NOTE Paragraph 00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:45.496 唔係，認真咁講 00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:49.080 如果有一位財政部長 或者其他部長同你講 00:17:49.080 --> 00:17:51.320 佢哋工作咗六個月之後 00:17:51.320 --> 00:17:55.256 尤其喺咁大壓力嘅情況底下 佢哋冇做錯過事嘅話 00:17:55.256 --> 00:17:57.210 呢種人其實好危險 00:17:57.210 --> 00:17:58.400 當然，我有犯過錯 NOTE Paragraph 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:01.360 我最大錯誤就係喺二月尾 00:18:01.360 --> 00:18:05.630 簽咗申請延長債務協議嘅申請書 00:18:05.630 --> 00:18:07.710 當時我以為債權方 00:18:07.710 --> 00:18:11.170 真係有興趣去搵一個共同利益 00:18:11.170 --> 00:18:12.270 但事實唔係咁 00:18:12.270 --> 00:18:14.900 佢哋嘅興趣係想打壓我哋嘅政府 00:18:14.900 --> 00:18:21.646 原因係佢哋唔想處理 歐元區嗰條結構裂痕 00:18:21.646 --> 00:18:23.300 同埋佢哋唔想承認 00:18:23.300 --> 00:18:26.790 佢哋過去五年對希臘 實施咗惡夢嘅計劃 00:18:26.790 --> 00:18:30.060 我哋喺失去咗三分一嘅名義 GDP 00:18:30.060 --> 00:18:31.960 情況比起大蕭條時更加差 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.606 喺嗰班實施呢啲政策嘅債權人之中 00:18:34.606 --> 00:18:39.330 無人可以置身事外到去講 「呢個係巨大嘅錯誤」 NOTE Paragraph 00:18:39.330 --> 00:18:41.940 主持︰除咗上述 除咗呢啲進取嘅言論 00:18:41.940 --> 00:18:45.350 你似乎都同意歐洲一體化 NOTE Paragraph 00:18:45.350 --> 00:18:46.410 講者：絕對係 00:18:46.410 --> 00:18:50.700 我之所以對歐盟同歐元區嘅批評 00:18:50.700 --> 00:18:55.660 係因為我係一個歐洲人 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.256 我最大嘅恐懼係 歐元區無法生存落去 00:18:59.260 --> 00:19:01.676 因為如果歐元區唔可以繼續走落去 00:19:01.676 --> 00:19:03.550 咁離心力就會被解放出嚟 00:19:03.550 --> 00:19:05.336 就好似魔鬼咁解放 00:19:05.340 --> 00:19:07.270 最終會摧毀整個歐盟 00:19:07.270 --> 00:19:11.220 咁嘅惡果唔只對歐洲 對全球經濟都會產生嚴重影響 NOTE Paragraph 00:19:11.220 --> 00:19:15.536 我哋可能係世界上最大嘅經濟體 00:19:15.560 --> 00:19:20.166 如果我哋容許自己 走返 30 年代嘅舊路 00:19:20.166 --> 00:19:22.860 雖然我覺得 我哋依家就行緊咁嘅路 00:19:22.860 --> 00:19:26.716 咁對歐洲人嘅未來 同埋歐洲以外嘅人嘅未來 00:19:26.716 --> 00:19:28.040 都係不利嘅 NOTE Paragraph 00:19:28.040 --> 00:19:30.130 主持：我哋真係好希望 呢點上面你係錯嘅 00:19:30.130 --> 00:19:31.740 瓦魯法基斯，多謝你嚟到 TED NOTE Paragraph 00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:32.900 講者：多謝 NOTE Paragraph 00:19:32.900 --> 00:19:37.433 （掌聲）