9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Democracy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In the West, we make a colossal mistake[br]taking it for granted. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We see democracy not as the most[br]fragile of flowers that it really is, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but we see it as part[br]of our society's furniture. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We tend to think of it[br]as any transient given. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We mistakenly believe that capitalism[br]begets, inevitably, democracy -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it doesn't. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew and his[br]great imitators in Beijing 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have demonstrated[br]beyond reasonable doubt 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that it is perfectly possible to have[br]flourishing capitalism, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 spectacular growth, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 while politics remain democracy free. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Indeed, democracy is receding[br]in our neck of the woods, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 here in Europe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Earlier this year while I was[br]representing Greece, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the newly elected Greek government[br]in the Eurogroup as its Fincance Minister, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was told to know on certain terms, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that our nation's democratic[br]process, our elections, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 could not be allowed to interfere 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with economic policies that were being[br]implemented in Greece. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 At that moment, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I felt that there could be no greater[br]vindication of Lee Kuan Yew, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or the Chinese Communist Party. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Indeed some of recalcitrant[br]friends of mine who kept telling me 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that democracy would be banned[br]if it ever threatened to change anything. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Tonight, here, I want to present to you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 an economic case[br]for an authentic democracy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I want to ask you to join me[br]in believing, again, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that Lee Kuan Yew,[br]The Chinese Communist Party, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and indeed the Eurogroup, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are wrong in believing that we[br]can dispense with democracy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That we need an authentic,[br]boisterous democracy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and without democracy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 our societies will be nastier, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 our future bleak, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and our great technologies wasted. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Speaking of waste, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 allow me to point out[br]an interesting paradox 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that is threatening our[br]economies as we speak. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I call it the twin peaks paradox. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 One peak you understand -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you know it, you recognize it -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is the mountain of debts 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that has been casting a shadow[br]over the United States, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Europe, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the whole world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We all recognize the mountain of debts. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But few people discern its twin. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A mountain of idle cash belonging to rich[br]savers and to corporations, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 too terrified to invest it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 into the productive activities[br]that can generate the incomes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from which you can extinguish[br]the mountain of debts 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and which can produce all those things[br]that humanity desperately needs, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like green energy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now let me give you two numbers. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Over the last three months, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the United States, in Britain[br]and the Euro zone, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we have invested collectively, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 3.4 trillion dollars on all[br]the wealth-producing goods, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 things like industrial plants, machinery,[br]office blocks, schools, roads, railways, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 machinery, and so on and so forth ... 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 until you compare it to the 5.1 trillion 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that has been slushing around in the same[br]countries, in our financial institutions, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 doing absolutely nothing[br]during the same period ... 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 except inflating stock exchanges[br]and driving up house prices. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So a mountain of debt[br]and a mountain of idle cash 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 form twin peaks failing[br]to cancel each other out 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 through the normal[br]operation of the markets. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The result is stagnant wages, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 more than a quarter[br]of 25 to 54-year-olds -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in America, in Japan and in Europe -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 out of work, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and consequently, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 low aggregate demand, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which in a never-ending cycle, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 reinforces the pessimism of the investors, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who fearing low demand,[br]reproduce it by not investing. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Exactly like Oedipus' father, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who terrified by[br]the prophecy of the oracle 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that his son would grow up to kill him, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 unwittingly engineered the conditions 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that insured that Oedipus,[br]his son, would kill him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is my quarrel with capitalism. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's gross wastefulness, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 all this idle cash, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 should be energized to improve lives, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to develop human talents, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and indeed to finance[br]all these technologies -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 green technologies -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which are absolutely essential[br]for saving planet Earth. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Am I right in believing[br]that democracy might be the answer? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I believe so, but before we move on, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 what do we mean by democracy? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Aristotle defined democracy[br]as the constitution 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in which the free and the poor,[br]being in the majority, control government. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now of course Athenian democracy[br]excluded too many -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 women, migrants and of course, the slaves. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But it would be a mistake[br]to dismiss the significance 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of ancient athenian democracy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on the basis of whom it excluded. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What is more pertinent, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and continues to be so about ancient[br]athenian democracy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was the inclusion of the working poor, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who not only acquired[br]the right to free speech, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but more importantly -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 crucially -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they acquired the rights[br]to political judgements 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that were afforded equal weight 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the decision-making[br]concerning matters of state. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now of course, Athenian[br]democracy didn't last long, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like a candle that burns brightly,[br]it burned out quickly. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And indeed, our liberal democracies today, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 do not have their roots in ancient Athens. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They have their roots in the Magna Carta, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the 1688 Glorious Revolution, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 indeed in the American constitution. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Whereas Athenian democracy was focusing[br]on the masterless citizen 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and empowering the working poor, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 our liberal democracies, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 founded on the Magna Carta tradition, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which was, after all[br]a charter for masters. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And indeed liberal democracy[br]only surfaced when it was possible 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to separate fully the political sphere[br]from the economic sphere, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so as to confine the democratic process[br]fully in the political sphere, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 leaving the economic sphere -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the corporate world, if you want -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as a democracy-free zone. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now in our democracies today, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this separation of the economic[br]from the political sphere, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the moment it started happening, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it gave rise to an inexorable,[br]epic struggle between the two 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with the economic sphere[br]colonizing the political sphere, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 eating into its power. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Have you wondered why politicians[br]are not what they used to be? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's not because their DNA[br]has degenerated -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Laugher) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is rather because one can be[br]in government today and not in power. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Because power has migrated 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from the political to the economic[br]sphere, which is separate. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Indeed -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I spoke about my[br]quarrel with capitalism -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you think about it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it is a little bit like[br]a population of predators, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that are so successful in decimating[br]the prey that they must feed on, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that in the end, they starve. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Similarly, the economic sphere 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has been colonizing and cannibalizing[br]the political sphere to such an extent 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that is is undermining itself,[br]causing economic crises. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Corporate power is increasing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 political goods are devaluing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 inequality is rising, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 aggregate amount is falling, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and CEO's of corporations are too scared[br]to invest the cash of their corporations. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So the more capitalism succeeds in taking[br]the demos out of democracy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the taller the twin peaks 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the greater the waste[br]of human resources, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and humanity's wealth. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Clearly, if this is right, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we must reunite the political[br]and economic sheres 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and better do it with demos[br]being in control, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like ancient Athens except[br]without the slaves, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or the exclusion of women[br]and migrants. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now this is not an original idea, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the marxist left had[br]that idea 100 years ago 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and it didn't go very well, did it? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The lesson that we learned[br]from the Soviet debacle 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that only by a miracle will the working[br]poor be re-empowered, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as they were in ancient Athens, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 without creating new forms[br]of brutality and waste. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But there is a solution. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Eliminate the working poor. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Capitalism's doing it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by replacing low-wage workers[br]with automata, androids, robots. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The problem is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that as long as the economic and[br]the political spheres are separate, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 automation makes the twin peaks taller, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the waste loftier, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the social conflicts deeper, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 including -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 soon, I believe -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in places like China. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So we need to reconfigure, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we need to reunite the economic[br]and the political spheres, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but we better do it by democratizing[br]the reunified sphere, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 lest you end up with[br]a surveillance-mad, hyper-autocracy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that makes The Matrix, the movie,[br]look like a documentary. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Laughter) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So the question is not whether[br]capitalism will survive 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the technological innovations[br]of this moment. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The more interesting question is whether[br]capitalism will be succeeded 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by something resembling a Matrix dystopia, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or something much closer[br]to a Star Trek-like society, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where machines serve the humans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the humans expend their energies[br]exploring the universe 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and indulging in long debates[br]about the meaning of life 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in some ancient, Athenian-like,[br]high tech Agora 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think we can afford to be optimistic. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But what would it take -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 what would it look like -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to have this Star Trek-like utopia,[br]instead of the Matrix-like dystopia? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In practical terms, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 allow me to share, just briefly, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a couple of examples. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 At the level of the Enterprise, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 imagine a capital market, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where you earn capital as you work, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and where your capital follows you[br]from one job to another, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from one company to another, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the company -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 whichever one you happen[br]to work at at that time -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is solely owned by those who happen[br]to work in it at that moment. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Then, all income stems[br]from capital, from profits, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the very concept[br]of wage labor becomes obsolete. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No more separation between those[br]who own but do not work in the company, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and those who work[br]but do not own the company. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No more tug-of-war[br]between capital and labor. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No great gap between[br]investment and saving, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Indeed, no towering twin peaks. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 At the level of a global[br]political economy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 imagine for a moment, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that our national currencies[br]have a free-floating exchange rate, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with a universal, global,[br]digital currency, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 one that is issued by[br]the International Monetary Fund, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the G-20, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on behalf of all humanity. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And imagine further, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that all international trade[br]is denominated in this currency -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 let's call it "the cosmos" -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in units of cosmos. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 With every government agreeing[br]to be paying into a common fund 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a sum of cosmos units proportional[br]to the country's trade deficit, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or indeed to a country's trade surplus. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And imaging that that fund is utilized[br]to invest in green technologies, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 especially in parts of the world[br]where investment funding is scarce. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is not a new idea. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's what, effectively, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 John Maynard Keynes proposed[br]in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The problem is that back then 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they didn't have the technology[br]to implement it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now we do. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Especially in the context of a reunified[br]political economic sphere. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The world that I am describing to you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is simultaneously libertarian, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in that it prioritizes[br]empowered individuals, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Marxist, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 since it will have confined[br]through the [dustbin?] of history 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the division between capital and labor, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and Keynesian -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 global Keynesian. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But above all else, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it is a world in which 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we will be able to imagine[br]an authentic democracy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Will such a world dawn? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Or shall we descend[br]into a Matrix-like dystopia? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The answer lies in the political choice[br]that we shall be making collectively. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is our choice, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and we'd better make it democratically. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Thank you. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Applause) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Bruno Giussani: Yanis ... 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It was you who described yourself[br]in your bios as a libertarian marxist -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 what is the [relevance of Marxism] today? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: Well if there was any relevance[br]in what I just said, the Marx is relevant 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because the whole point of reunifying[br]the political and economic is -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if we don't do it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then technological innovation will create[br]such a massive fall in aggregate -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 what Larry Summers referers[br]to as secular stagnation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 With this crisis migrating[br]from one part of the world, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as it is now, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we destabilize not only our democracies, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but even the [emerging?] world that is not[br]that keen on liberal democracy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So if this analysis holds water,[br]then Marx is absolutely relevant. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But so is [Hagen?] -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's why I'm a libertarian marxist, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and so is Keynes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so that's why I'm totally confused. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Laughter) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: Indeed, and possibly we are, too now. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Applause) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: If you are not confused,[br]you are not thinking, okay? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: That's a very, very Greek[br]philosopher kind of thing to say -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: That's more Einstein, actually -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: During your talk you mentioned[br]Singapore and China, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and yesterday night at the speaker dinner, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you expressed a pretty strong opinion[br]about how the West looks at China. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Would you like to share that? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: Well there's a great[br]degree of hypocrisy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In our liberal democracies we have[br]a semblance of democracy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's because we have confined -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as I was saying in my talk -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 democracy to the political sphere, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 while leaving the one sphere[br]where all the action is -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the economic sphere -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a completely democracy-free zone. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In a sense, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if I am allowed to be provocative, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 China today is closer to Britain[br]in the 19th century, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because remember, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we tend to associate[br]liberalism with democracy -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's a mistake, historically. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Liberalism -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Liberal -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it's like John Stuart Mill. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 John Stuart Mill was particularly[br]skeptical about the democratic process. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So what you are seeing now in China[br]is a very similar process 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to what we had in Britain[br]during the Industrial Revolution, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 especially the transition[br]from the first to the second. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And to be castigating China 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for doing that which the West did[br]in the 19th century, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 smacks of hypocrisy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: I am sure that many people here 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are wondering about your experience 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as the Finance Minister of Greece[br]earlier this year -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: I knew this was coming -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: Yes -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Laughter) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: Six months after, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how do you look back[br]at the first half of the year? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: Extremely exciting[br]from a personal point of view 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and very disappointing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because we had an opportunity[br]to reboot the Eurozone. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Not just Greece, the Eurozone. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 To move away from the complacency[br] 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the constant denial[br]that there was a massive -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and there is a massive -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 architectural fault line[br]going through the Eurozone, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which is threatening, massively, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the whole of the European Union process. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We had the opportunity[br]on the basis of the Greek program -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which by the way, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was the first program[br]to manifest that denial -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to put it right. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And unfortunately, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the powers that be in Eurozone -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the Eurogroup -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 chose to maintain denial. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But you know what happens. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is the experience[br]of the Soviet Union. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 When you try to keep alive 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 an economic system[br]that architecturally cannot survive, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 through political will[br]and through authoritarianism, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you may succeed in prolonging it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But when change happens 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it happens very abruptly[br]and catastrophically. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: What kind of change[br]are you foreseeing? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: Well there's no doubt 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that if we don't change[br]the architecture of the Eurozone, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the Eurozone has no future. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: [Did you do any mistakes] [br]when you were Finance Minister? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: Every day. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Laughter) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Anybody who looks back -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Applause) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No but seriously. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If there's any Minister of Finance --[br] 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or of anything else for that matter -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who tells you after six months in a job, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 especially in such a stressful situation, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that they had made no mistake, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [they're dangerous people], 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of course I made mistakes. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The greatest mistake 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was to sign the application[br]for the extension of a loan agreement 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the end of February. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was imagining 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that there was a genuine interest[br]on the side of the creditors 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to find common ground. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And there wasn't. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They were simply interested[br]in crushing our government, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 just because they did not want[br]to have to deal 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with the architectural fault lines[br]that were running through the Eurozone, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and because they didn't want to admit 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that for five years they were implementing[br]a catastrophic problem in Greece. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We lost one-third of our Nominal GDP. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is worse than the Great Depression. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And no one has come clean 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from the tribe of lenders[br]that have been imposing this policy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to say, "this was a colossal mistake." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: Despite all this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and despite the aggressiveness[br]of the discussion though, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you seem to remaining[br]quite pro-European. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: Absolutely. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Look, my criticism of the European[br]Union and the Eurozone 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 comes from a person[br]who lives and breathes Europe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 My greatest fear is that[br]the Eurozone will not survive. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Because if it doesn't, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the centrifugal forces[br]that would be unleashed 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 would be [demonic], 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and they would destroy the European Union. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And that would be catastrophic[br]not just for Europe 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but for the whole global economy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We are probably the largest[br]economy in the world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And if we allow ourselves 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to fall into a [route?][br]of the post-modern 1930's, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which seems to me what we are doing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then that will be detrimental 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the future of Europeans[br]and non-Europeans alike. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 BG: We definitely hope[br]you are wrong on that point. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Yanis, thank you for coming to TED. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 YV: Thank you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 (Applause)