WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.056 This story starts: I was at a friend's house, 00:00:04.056 --> 00:00:07.791 and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual, 00:00:07.791 --> 00:00:10.556 which is the manual of mental disorders. 00:00:10.556 --> 00:00:13.156 It lists every known mental disorder. 00:00:13.156 --> 00:00:16.808 And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet. 00:00:16.808 --> 00:00:19.640 And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger, 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:22.722 and now it's 886 pages long. 00:00:22.722 --> 00:00:26.807 And it lists currently 374 mental disorders. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:26.807 --> 00:00:28.856 So I was leafing through it, 00:00:28.856 --> 00:00:31.023 wondering if I had any mental disorders, 00:00:31.023 --> 00:00:33.606 and it turns out I've got 12. 00:00:33.606 --> 00:00:34.657 (Laughter) 00:00:34.657 --> 00:00:36.772 I've got generalized anxiety disorder, 00:00:36.772 --> 00:00:38.323 which is a given. 00:00:38.323 --> 00:00:39.940 I've got nightmare disorder, 00:00:39.940 --> 00:00:41.756 which is categorized 00:00:41.756 --> 00:00:45.889 if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure -- 00:00:45.889 --> 00:00:49.841 and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street 00:00:49.841 --> 00:00:51.489 going, "You're a failure." 00:00:51.489 --> 00:00:53.223 (Laughter) 00:00:53.223 --> 00:00:55.925 I've got parent-child relational problems, 00:00:55.925 --> 00:00:58.391 which I blame my parents for. 00:00:58.391 --> 00:00:59.640 (Laughter) 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:02.692 I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. 00:01:02.692 --> 00:01:03.974 I'm kidding. 00:01:03.974 --> 00:01:05.940 And I've got malingering. 00:01:05.940 --> 00:01:07.240 And I think it's actually quite rare 00:01:07.240 --> 00:01:10.689 to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder, 00:01:10.689 --> 00:01:13.423 because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:13.423 --> 00:01:14.757 Anyway I was looking through this book, 00:01:14.757 --> 00:01:17.772 wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was, 00:01:17.772 --> 00:01:21.106 or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder 00:01:21.106 --> 00:01:23.208 if you're not a trained professional, 00:01:23.208 --> 00:01:27.940 or maybe the psychiatry profession has a strange desire 00:01:27.940 --> 00:01:33.190 to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder. 00:01:33.190 --> 00:01:34.990 I didn't know which of these things was true, 00:01:34.990 --> 00:01:36.690 but I thought it was kind of interesting. 00:01:36.690 --> 00:01:39.740 And I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry 00:01:39.740 --> 00:01:41.058 to get their view. 00:01:41.058 --> 00:01:45.770 Which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:45.770 --> 00:01:47.133 It was a man called Brian 00:01:47.133 --> 00:01:50.015 who runs a crack team of Scientologists 00:01:50.015 --> 00:01:54.584 who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies. 00:01:54.584 --> 00:01:56.066 They're called the CCHR. 00:01:56.066 --> 00:01:58.746 And I said to him, "Can you prove to me 00:01:58.746 --> 00:02:02.599 that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?" 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:05.015 And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you." 00:02:05.015 --> 00:02:06.683 And I said, "How?" 00:02:06.683 --> 00:02:10.227 And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony." 00:02:10.227 --> 00:02:12.368 And I said, "Who's Tony?" 00:02:12.368 --> 00:02:15.751 And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor." 00:02:15.751 --> 00:02:18.418 Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital. 00:02:18.418 --> 00:02:23.269 It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane. 00:02:23.269 --> 00:02:25.667 It's where they send the serial killers 00:02:25.667 --> 00:02:27.636 and the people who can't help themselves. 00:02:27.636 --> 00:02:30.286 And I said to Brian, "What did Tony do?" 00:02:30.286 --> 00:02:33.267 And he said, "Hardly anything. 00:02:33.267 --> 00:02:36.269 He beat someone up or something, 00:02:36.269 --> 00:02:41.501 and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence. 00:02:41.501 --> 00:02:46.103 But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor 00:02:46.103 --> 00:02:48.985 and nobody will believe he's sane. 00:02:48.985 --> 00:02:52.653 Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?" 00:02:52.653 --> 00:02:54.268 So I said, "Yes, please." NOTE Paragraph 00:02:54.268 --> 00:02:56.935 So I got the train to Broadmoor. 00:02:56.935 --> 00:03:00.553 I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park, 00:03:00.553 --> 00:03:03.566 which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious -- 00:03:03.566 --> 00:03:05.502 they yawn uncontrollably. 00:03:05.502 --> 00:03:06.837 And we got to Broadmoor. 00:03:06.837 --> 00:03:11.770 And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate 00:03:11.770 --> 00:03:13.336 into the wellness center, 00:03:13.336 --> 00:03:15.003 which is where you get to meet the patients. 00:03:15.003 --> 00:03:18.754 It looks like a giant Hampton Inn. 00:03:18.754 --> 00:03:22.838 It's all peach and pine and calming colors. 00:03:22.838 --> 00:03:28.054 And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons. 00:03:28.054 --> 00:03:30.938 And the patients started drifting in. 00:03:30.938 --> 00:03:35.637 And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants 00:03:35.637 --> 00:03:37.539 and quite docile looking. 00:03:37.539 --> 00:03:39.537 And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me, 00:03:39.537 --> 00:03:41.688 "They're medicated," 00:03:41.688 --> 00:03:45.185 which to the Scientologists is like the worst evil in the world, 00:03:45.185 --> 00:03:47.981 but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea. 00:03:47.981 --> 00:03:49.850 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:03:49.850 --> 00:03:52.274 And then Brian said, "Here's Tony." 00:03:52.274 --> 00:03:54.204 And a man was walking in. 00:03:54.204 --> 00:03:58.273 And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape. 00:03:58.273 --> 00:04:00.023 And he wasn't wearing sweatpants, 00:04:00.023 --> 00:04:02.888 he was wearing a pinstriped suit. 00:04:02.888 --> 00:04:05.054 And he had his arm outstretched 00:04:05.054 --> 00:04:07.138 like someone out of The Apprentice. 00:04:07.138 --> 00:04:09.905 He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit 00:04:09.905 --> 00:04:14.239 that would convince me that he was very sane. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:14.239 --> 00:04:16.072 And he sat down. 00:04:16.072 --> 00:04:18.673 And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?" 00:04:18.673 --> 00:04:22.455 And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17. 00:04:22.455 --> 00:04:24.775 And I was in prison awaiting trial, 00:04:24.775 --> 00:04:26.287 and my cellmate said to me, 00:04:26.287 --> 00:04:27.839 'You know what you have to do? 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:29.323 Fake madness. 00:04:29.323 --> 00:04:32.607 Tell them you're mad. You'll get sent to some cushy hospital. 00:04:32.607 --> 00:04:35.288 Nurses will bring you pizzas. 00:04:35.288 --> 00:04:37.105 You'll have your own Playstation.'" 00:04:37.105 --> 00:04:38.988 So I said, "Well how did you do it?" 00:04:38.988 --> 00:04:41.605 He said, "I asked to see the prison psychiatrist. 00:04:41.605 --> 00:04:43.752 And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash' 00:04:43.752 --> 00:04:47.737 in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls. 00:04:47.737 --> 00:04:49.370 So I said to the psychiatrist, 00:04:49.370 --> 00:04:53.352 'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'" 00:04:53.352 --> 00:04:55.106 And I said, "What else?" 00:04:55.106 --> 00:04:57.452 He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist 00:04:57.452 --> 00:05:01.120 that I wanted to watch women as they died 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:03.468 because it would make me feel more normal." 00:05:03.468 --> 00:05:05.121 And I said, "Where'd you get that from?" 00:05:05.121 --> 00:05:07.871 He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy 00:05:07.871 --> 00:05:09.421 that they had at the prison library." NOTE Paragraph 00:05:09.421 --> 00:05:13.740 Anyway he faked madness too well, he said. 00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:15.641 And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital. 00:05:15.641 --> 00:05:17.839 They sent him to Broadmoor. 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:19.889 And the minute he got there, 00:05:19.889 --> 00:05:22.656 he said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist, 00:05:22.656 --> 00:05:24.372 said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding. 00:05:24.372 --> 00:05:27.005 I'm not mentally ill." 00:05:27.005 --> 00:05:29.005 I said, "How long have you been here for?" 00:05:29.005 --> 00:05:33.339 He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison for the original crime, 00:05:33.339 --> 00:05:34.989 I'd have got five years. 00:05:34.989 --> 00:05:40.529 I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years." NOTE Paragraph 00:05:40.529 --> 00:05:44.603 Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane 00:05:44.603 --> 00:05:47.104 than it is to convince them you're crazy. 00:05:47.104 --> 00:05:49.085 He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal 00:05:49.085 --> 00:05:51.686 would be to talk to people normally about normal things 00:05:51.686 --> 00:05:53.721 like football or what's on TV. 00:05:53.721 --> 00:05:55.770 I subscribe to New Scientist, 00:05:55.770 --> 00:05:57.969 and recently it had an article 00:05:57.969 --> 00:06:02.102 about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives. 00:06:02.102 --> 00:06:03.087 So I said to a nurse, 00:06:03.087 --> 00:06:06.168 'Did you know that the U.S. army is training bumblebees 00:06:06.168 --> 00:06:07.520 to sniff out explosives?' 00:06:07.520 --> 00:06:09.321 When I read my medical notes, 00:06:09.321 --> 00:06:10.552 I saw they'd written: 00:06:10.552 --> 00:06:14.836 'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'" 00:06:14.836 --> 00:06:17.222 He said, "You know, they're always looking out 00:06:17.222 --> 00:06:20.020 for non-verbal clues to my mental state. 00:06:20.020 --> 00:06:23.436 But how do you sit in a sane way? 00:06:23.436 --> 00:06:25.852 How do you cross your legs in a sane way? 00:06:25.852 --> 00:06:27.503 It's just impossible." 00:06:27.503 --> 00:06:28.885 And when Tony said that to me, 00:06:28.885 --> 00:06:32.106 I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist? 00:06:32.106 --> 00:06:35.553 Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?" NOTE Paragraph 00:06:35.553 --> 00:06:41.215 He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me 00:06:41.231 --> 00:06:44.872 and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist on the other side of me. 00:06:44.872 --> 00:06:48.206 So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening. 00:06:48.206 --> 00:06:50.588 And they take that as a sign of madness. 00:06:50.588 --> 00:06:53.721 They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose." 00:06:53.721 --> 00:06:58.238 So only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers 00:06:58.238 --> 00:06:59.688 be a sign of madness. 00:06:59.688 --> 00:07:03.186 Anyway he seemed completely normal to me -- but what did I know? NOTE Paragraph 00:07:03.186 --> 00:07:06.675 And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden. 00:07:06.675 --> 00:07:07.959 I said, "What's the story?" 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:13.241 And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness to get out of a prison sentence 00:07:13.241 --> 00:07:17.758 because his hallucinations that had seemed quite cliché to begin with 00:07:17.758 --> 00:07:20.208 just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor. 00:07:20.208 --> 00:07:22.392 However, we have assessed him. 00:07:22.392 --> 00:07:26.775 And we have determined that what he is is a psychopath." 00:07:26.775 --> 00:07:28.679 And in fact, faking madness 00:07:28.679 --> 00:07:33.119 is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath. 00:07:33.119 --> 00:07:35.652 It's on the checklist: cunning and manipulative. 00:07:35.652 --> 00:07:37.701 So faking your brain going wrong 00:07:37.701 --> 00:07:40.820 is evidence that your brain has gone wrong. 00:07:40.820 --> 00:07:42.185 And I spoke to other experts, 00:07:42.185 --> 00:07:46.235 and they said the pinstriped suit -- classic psychopath. 00:07:46.235 --> 00:07:48.402 Speaks to items one and two on the checklist -- 00:07:48.402 --> 00:07:52.596 glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth. 00:07:52.596 --> 00:07:55.913 And I said, "Well, what, he didn't want to hang out with the other patients?" 00:07:55.913 --> 00:08:00.412 Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy. 00:08:00.412 --> 00:08:04.145 So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony 00:08:04.145 --> 00:08:06.664 was evidence, according to his clinician, 00:08:06.664 --> 00:08:09.098 that he was mad in this new way. 00:08:09.098 --> 00:08:10.932 He was a psychopath. NOTE Paragraph 00:08:10.932 --> 00:08:12.147 And his clinician said to me, 00:08:12.147 --> 00:08:14.164 "If you want to know more about psychopaths, 00:08:14.164 --> 00:08:17.231 you can go on a psychopath spotting course 00:08:17.231 --> 00:08:20.546 run by Robert Hare who invented the psychopath checklist." 00:08:20.546 --> 00:08:21.730 So I did. 00:08:21.730 --> 00:08:23.797 I went on a psychopath spotting course, 00:08:23.797 --> 00:08:27.613 and I am now a certified -- 00:08:27.613 --> 00:08:30.709 and I have to say, extremely adept -- 00:08:30.709 --> 00:08:32.513 psychopath spotter. NOTE Paragraph 00:08:32.513 --> 00:08:35.481 So here's the statistics: 00:08:35.481 --> 00:08:40.339 One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath. 00:08:40.339 --> 00:08:43.823 So there's 1,500 people in his room. 00:08:43.823 --> 00:08:49.631 Fifteen of you are psychopaths. 00:08:49.631 --> 00:08:51.914 Although that figure rises to four percent 00:08:51.914 --> 00:08:54.864 of CEO's and business leaders. 00:08:54.864 --> 00:08:57.596 So I think there's a very good chance 00:08:57.596 --> 00:09:02.597 there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room. 00:09:02.597 --> 00:09:05.180 It could be carnage by the end of the night. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:05.192 --> 00:09:08.897 (Laughter) (Laughs) NOTE Paragraph 00:09:08.897 --> 00:09:14.442 Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless 00:09:14.442 --> 00:09:17.260 rewards psychopathic behavior -- 00:09:17.260 --> 00:09:22.221 the lack of empathy, the glibness, 00:09:22.221 --> 00:09:24.461 cunning, manipulative. 00:09:24.461 --> 00:09:27.178 In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless, 00:09:27.178 --> 00:09:31.578 is a physical manifestation of psychopathy. 00:09:31.578 --> 00:09:33.495 It's like a form of psychopathy 00:09:33.495 --> 00:09:37.642 that's come down to affect us all. 00:09:37.642 --> 00:09:40.110 And Hare said to me, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor 00:09:40.110 --> 00:09:42.061 who may or may not have faked madness. 00:09:42.061 --> 00:09:43.559 Who cares? That's not a big story. 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.210 The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy. 00:09:46.210 --> 00:09:50.743 You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths." NOTE Paragraph 00:09:50.743 --> 00:09:53.836 So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people. 00:09:53.843 --> 00:09:55.692 I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison 00:09:55.692 --> 00:09:57.726 to find out it you're psychopaths?" 00:09:57.726 --> 00:10:01.994 And they didn't reply. 00:10:01.994 --> 00:10:04.376 So I changed tack. 00:10:04.376 --> 00:10:07.676 I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap, 00:10:07.676 --> 00:10:10.795 the asset stripper from the 1990s. 00:10:10.795 --> 00:10:15.529 He would come into failing businesses and close down 30 percent of the workforce, 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:18.697 just turn American towns into ghost towns. 00:10:18.697 --> 00:10:20.327 And I emailed him and I said, 00:10:20.327 --> 00:10:22.395 "I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly 00:10:22.395 --> 00:10:24.794 that makes you special 00:10:24.794 --> 00:10:29.293 and interested in the predatory spirit and fearless. 00:10:29.293 --> 00:10:31.061 Can I come and interview you 00:10:31.061 --> 00:10:32.728 about your special brain anomaly?" 00:10:32.728 --> 00:10:36.211 And he said, "Come on over." NOTE Paragraph 00:10:36.211 --> 00:10:39.110 So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:43.844 that was filled with sculptures of predatory animals. 00:10:43.844 --> 00:10:46.929 There were lions and tigers. 00:10:46.929 --> 00:10:47.980 He was taking me through the garden. 00:10:47.980 --> 00:10:50.699 There were falcons and eagles. 00:10:50.699 --> 00:10:52.429 He was saying to me, "Over there you've got sharks." 00:10:52.429 --> 00:10:55.114 He was saying this in a less effeminate way. 00:10:55.114 --> 00:11:00.835 "You've got more sharks and you've got tigers." 00:11:00.835 --> 00:11:02.830 It was like Narnia. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:02.830 --> 00:11:06.120 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:08.772 And then we went into his kitchen. 00:11:08.772 --> 00:11:12.948 Now Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies. 00:11:12.948 --> 00:11:15.129 He'd close down 30 percent of the workforce. 00:11:15.129 --> 00:11:18.400 And he'd quite often fire people with a joke. 00:11:18.400 --> 00:11:21.205 For instance, one famous story about him, 00:11:21.205 --> 00:11:24.120 somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car." 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:26.113 And he said, "You may have a new car, 00:11:26.113 --> 00:11:31.836 but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job." NOTE Paragraph 00:11:31.836 --> 00:11:34.656 So in his kitchen -- he was standing there with his wife, Judy, 00:11:34.656 --> 00:11:37.529 and his bodyguard Shawn -- and I said, "You know how I said in my email 00:11:37.529 --> 00:11:41.343 that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?" 00:11:41.343 --> 00:11:42.943 He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory. 00:11:42.943 --> 00:11:46.176 It's like Star Trek. You're going where no man has gone before." 00:11:46.176 --> 00:11:54.027 And I said, "Well, some psychologists might say 00:11:54.027 --> 00:11:56.976 that this makes you ... " (Mumbles) 00:11:56.976 --> 00:11:58.627 (Laughter) 00:11:58.627 --> 00:12:00.394 And he said, "What?" 00:12:00.394 --> 00:12:02.427 And I said, "A psychopath." 00:12:02.427 --> 00:12:06.609 And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket. 00:12:06.609 --> 00:12:08.893 Can I go through them with you?" NOTE Paragraph 00:12:08.893 --> 00:12:11.510 And he looked intrigued despite himself, 00:12:11.510 --> 00:12:12.909 and he said, "Okay, go on." 00:12:12.909 --> 00:12:16.343 And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth." 00:12:16.343 --> 00:12:18.842 Which, I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny 00:12:18.842 --> 00:12:22.043 because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself. 00:12:22.043 --> 00:12:26.520 (Laughter) 00:12:26.520 --> 00:12:30.073 He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!" 00:12:30.073 --> 00:12:32.668 And I said, "Manipulative." 00:12:32.668 --> 00:12:35.719 He said, "That's leadership." 00:12:35.719 --> 00:12:37.585 And I said, "Shallow affect: 00:12:37.585 --> 00:12:39.869 an inability to experience a range of emotions." 00:12:39.869 --> 00:12:43.486 He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?" 00:12:43.486 --> 00:12:45.953 So he was going down the psychopathic checklist, 00:12:45.953 --> 00:12:49.186 basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?" NOTE Paragraph 00:12:49.186 --> 00:12:53.181 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:12:53.181 --> 00:12:55.881 But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap. 00:12:55.881 --> 00:12:58.469 Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal -- 00:12:58.469 --> 00:13:01.635 like he said no to juvenile delinquency. 00:13:01.635 --> 00:13:03.021 He said he got accepted into West Point, 00:13:03.021 --> 00:13:06.269 and they don't let delinquents in West Point. 00:13:06.269 --> 00:13:09.118 He said no to many short-term marital relationships. 00:13:09.118 --> 00:13:10.603 He's only ever been married twice. 00:13:10.603 --> 00:13:13.837 Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers 00:13:13.837 --> 00:13:16.004 that he once threatened her with a knife 00:13:16.004 --> 00:13:18.570 and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like, 00:13:18.570 --> 00:13:22.537 but people say stupid things to each other in bad marriages in the heat of an argument 00:13:22.537 --> 00:13:25.636 and his second marriage has lasted 41 years. 00:13:25.636 --> 00:13:29.255 So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic, 00:13:29.255 --> 00:13:32.769 I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book. 00:13:32.769 --> 00:13:36.736 And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter 00:13:36.736 --> 00:13:40.436 had turned me a little bit psychopathic. 00:13:40.436 --> 00:13:45.404 Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked psychopath. 00:13:45.404 --> 00:13:50.070 I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:50.070 --> 00:13:53.337 And I realized, oh my God. This is what I've been doing for 20 years. 00:13:53.337 --> 00:13:55.037 It's what all journalists do. 00:13:55.037 --> 00:13:58.521 We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands, 00:13:58.521 --> 00:14:00.420 and we wait for the gems. 00:14:00.420 --> 00:14:04.948 And the gems are always the outermost aspects 00:14:04.948 --> 00:14:06.987 of our interviewee's personality. 00:14:06.987 --> 00:14:10.239 And we stitch them together like medieval monks. 00:14:10.239 --> 00:14:14.104 And we leave the normal stuff on the floor. 00:14:14.104 --> 00:14:21.271 And this is a country that over-diagnoses certain mental disorders hugely. 00:14:21.271 --> 00:14:24.337 Childhood bipolar -- children as young as four 00:14:24.337 --> 00:14:26.287 are being labeled bipolar 00:14:26.287 --> 00:14:28.670 because they have temper tantrums, 00:14:28.670 --> 00:14:33.054 which scores them high on their bipolar checklist. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:33.054 --> 00:14:37.437 When I got back to London, Tony phoned me. 00:14:37.437 --> 00:14:40.287 He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?" 00:14:40.287 --> 00:14:43.679 I said, "Well they say that you're a psychopath." 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.973 And he said, "I'm not a psychopath." 00:14:45.973 --> 00:14:48.869 He said, "You know what, one of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse, 00:14:48.869 --> 00:14:52.154 but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative. 00:14:52.154 --> 00:14:54.739 So when you say you feel remorse for your crime, 00:14:54.739 --> 00:14:56.503 they say, 'Typical of the psychopath 00:14:56.503 --> 00:14:59.888 to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.' 00:14:59.888 --> 00:15:03.387 It's like witchcraft. They turn everything upside-down." 00:15:03.387 --> 00:15:05.869 He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up. 00:15:05.869 --> 00:15:08.240 Will you come to it?" 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.155 So I said okay. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:10.155 --> 00:15:13.047 So I went to his tribunal. 00:15:13.047 --> 00:15:17.504 And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go. 00:15:17.504 --> 00:15:20.752 They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely 00:15:20.752 --> 00:15:23.888 because he scores high on a checklist 00:15:23.888 --> 00:15:29.271 that might mean that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism. 00:15:29.271 --> 00:15:31.154 So they let him go. 00:15:31.154 --> 00:15:32.863 And outside in the corridor he said to me, 00:15:32.863 --> 00:15:34.406 "You know what, Jon? 00:15:34.406 --> 00:15:36.829 Everyone's a bit psychopathic." 00:15:36.829 --> 00:15:40.911 He said, "You are. I am. Well obviously I am." 00:15:40.911 --> 00:15:43.411 I said, "What are you going to do now?" 00:15:43.411 --> 00:15:46.129 He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium 00:15:46.129 --> 00:15:47.929 because there's a woman there that I fancy. 00:15:47.929 --> 00:15:51.128 But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband." NOTE Paragraph 00:15:51.128 --> 00:15:55.721 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:15:55.721 --> 00:15:58.777 Anyway, that was two years ago, 00:15:58.777 --> 00:16:00.784 and that's where my book ended. 00:16:00.784 --> 00:16:05.251 And for the last 20 months everything was fine. 00:16:05.251 --> 00:16:07.385 Nothing bad happened. 00:16:07.385 --> 00:16:09.256 He was living with a girl outside London. 00:16:09.256 --> 00:16:11.234 He was, according to Brian the Scientologist, 00:16:11.234 --> 00:16:14.598 making up for lost time -- which I know sounds ominous, 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:16.300 but isn't necessarily ominous. 00:16:16.300 --> 00:16:18.883 Unfortunately, after 20 months, 00:16:18.883 --> 00:16:21.267 he did go back to jail for a month. 00:16:21.267 --> 00:16:25.633 He got into a fracas in a bar, he called it -- 00:16:25.633 --> 00:16:27.701 ended up going to jail for a month, 00:16:27.701 --> 00:16:28.751 which I know is bad, 00:16:28.751 --> 00:16:31.984 but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was, 00:16:31.984 --> 00:16:34.517 it wasn't too bad. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:34.517 --> 00:16:37.805 And then he phoned me. 00:16:37.805 --> 00:16:42.354 And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out. 00:16:42.354 --> 00:16:46.255 Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges. 00:16:46.255 --> 00:16:49.737 And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath. 00:16:49.737 --> 00:16:55.437 He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas. 00:16:55.437 --> 00:16:59.855 But the gray areas are where you find the complexity, 00:16:59.855 --> 00:17:03.237 it's where you find the humanity 00:17:03.237 --> 00:17:06.139 and it's where you find the truth. 00:17:06.139 --> 00:17:08.253 And Tony said to me, 00:17:08.253 --> 00:17:12.138 "Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar? 00:17:12.138 --> 00:17:15.445 I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me." 00:17:15.445 --> 00:17:20.501 And I didn't go. What would you have done? NOTE Paragraph 00:17:20.501 --> 00:17:21.811 Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:21.811 --> 00:17:38.572 (Applause)