1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,056 This story starts: I was at a friend's house, 2 00:00:04,056 --> 00:00:07,791 and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual, 3 00:00:07,791 --> 00:00:10,556 which is the manual of mental disorders. 4 00:00:10,556 --> 00:00:13,156 It lists every known mental disorder. 5 00:00:13,156 --> 00:00:16,808 And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet. 6 00:00:16,808 --> 00:00:19,640 And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger, 7 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,722 and now it's 886 pages long. 8 00:00:22,722 --> 00:00:26,807 And it lists currently 374 mental disorders. 9 00:00:26,807 --> 00:00:28,856 So I was leafing through it, 10 00:00:28,856 --> 00:00:31,023 wondering if I had any mental disorders, 11 00:00:31,023 --> 00:00:33,606 and it turns out I've got 12. 12 00:00:33,606 --> 00:00:34,657 (Laughter) 13 00:00:34,657 --> 00:00:36,772 I've got generalized anxiety disorder, 14 00:00:36,772 --> 00:00:38,323 which is a given. 15 00:00:38,323 --> 00:00:39,940 I've got nightmare disorder, 16 00:00:39,940 --> 00:00:41,756 which is categorized 17 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:45,889 if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure -- 18 00:00:45,889 --> 00:00:49,841 and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street 19 00:00:49,841 --> 00:00:51,489 going, "You're a failure." 20 00:00:51,489 --> 00:00:53,223 (Laughter) 21 00:00:53,223 --> 00:00:55,925 I've got parent-child relational problems, 22 00:00:55,925 --> 00:00:58,391 which I blame my parents for. 23 00:00:58,391 --> 00:00:59,640 (Laughter) 24 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,692 I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. 25 00:01:02,692 --> 00:01:03,974 I'm kidding. 26 00:01:03,974 --> 00:01:05,940 And I've got malingering. 27 00:01:05,940 --> 00:01:07,240 And I think it's actually quite rare 28 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,689 to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder, 29 00:01:10,689 --> 00:01:13,423 because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious. 30 00:01:13,423 --> 00:01:14,757 Anyway I was looking through this book, 31 00:01:14,757 --> 00:01:17,772 wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was, 32 00:01:17,772 --> 00:01:21,106 or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder 33 00:01:21,106 --> 00:01:23,208 if you're not a trained professional, 34 00:01:23,208 --> 00:01:27,940 or maybe the psychiatry profession has a strange desire 35 00:01:27,940 --> 00:01:33,190 to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder. 36 00:01:33,190 --> 00:01:34,990 I didn't know which of these things was true, 37 00:01:34,990 --> 00:01:36,690 but I thought it was kind of interesting. 38 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:39,740 And I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry 39 00:01:39,740 --> 00:01:41,058 to get their view. 40 00:01:41,058 --> 00:01:45,770 Which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists. 41 00:01:45,770 --> 00:01:47,133 It was a man called Brian 42 00:01:47,133 --> 00:01:50,015 who runs a crack team of Scientologists 43 00:01:50,015 --> 00:01:54,584 who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies. 44 00:01:54,584 --> 00:01:56,066 They're called the CCHR. 45 00:01:56,066 --> 00:01:58,746 And I said to him, "Can you prove to me 46 00:01:58,746 --> 00:02:02,599 that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?" 47 00:02:02,599 --> 00:02:05,015 And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you." 48 00:02:05,015 --> 00:02:06,683 And I said, "How?" 49 00:02:06,683 --> 00:02:10,227 And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony." 50 00:02:10,227 --> 00:02:12,368 And I said, "Who's Tony?" 51 00:02:12,368 --> 00:02:15,751 And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor." 52 00:02:15,751 --> 00:02:18,418 Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital. 53 00:02:18,418 --> 00:02:23,269 It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane. 54 00:02:23,269 --> 00:02:25,667 It's where they send the serial killers 55 00:02:25,667 --> 00:02:27,636 and the people who can't help themselves. 56 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:30,286 And I said to Brian, "What did Tony do?" 57 00:02:30,286 --> 00:02:33,267 And he said, "Hardly anything. 58 00:02:33,267 --> 00:02:36,269 He beat someone up or something, 59 00:02:36,269 --> 00:02:41,501 and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence. 60 00:02:41,501 --> 00:02:46,103 But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor 61 00:02:46,103 --> 00:02:48,985 and nobody will believe he's sane. 62 00:02:48,985 --> 00:02:52,653 Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?" 63 00:02:52,653 --> 00:02:54,268 So I said, "Yes, please." 64 00:02:54,268 --> 00:02:56,935 So I got the train to Broadmoor. 65 00:02:56,935 --> 00:03:00,553 I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park, 66 00:03:00,553 --> 00:03:03,566 which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious -- 67 00:03:03,566 --> 00:03:05,502 they yawn uncontrollably. 68 00:03:05,502 --> 00:03:06,837 And we got to Broadmoor. 69 00:03:06,837 --> 00:03:11,770 And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate 70 00:03:11,770 --> 00:03:13,336 into the wellness center, 71 00:03:13,336 --> 00:03:15,003 which is where you get to meet the patients. 72 00:03:15,003 --> 00:03:18,754 It looks like a giant Hampton Inn. 73 00:03:18,754 --> 00:03:22,838 It's all peach and pine and calming colors. 74 00:03:22,838 --> 00:03:28,054 And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons. 75 00:03:28,054 --> 00:03:30,938 And the patients started drifting in. 76 00:03:30,938 --> 00:03:35,637 And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants 77 00:03:35,637 --> 00:03:37,539 and quite docile looking. 78 00:03:37,539 --> 00:03:39,537 And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me, 79 00:03:39,537 --> 00:03:41,688 "They're medicated," 80 00:03:41,688 --> 00:03:45,185 which to the Scientologists is like the worst evil in the world, 81 00:03:45,185 --> 00:03:47,981 but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea. 82 00:03:47,981 --> 00:03:49,850 (Laughter) 83 00:03:49,850 --> 00:03:52,274 And then Brian said, "Here's Tony." 84 00:03:52,274 --> 00:03:54,204 And a man was walking in. 85 00:03:54,204 --> 00:03:58,273 And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape. 86 00:03:58,273 --> 00:04:00,023 And he wasn't wearing sweatpants, 87 00:04:00,023 --> 00:04:02,888 he was wearing a pinstriped suit. 88 00:04:02,888 --> 00:04:05,054 And he had his arm outstretched 89 00:04:05,054 --> 00:04:07,138 like someone out of The Apprentice. 90 00:04:07,138 --> 00:04:09,905 He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit 91 00:04:09,905 --> 00:04:14,239 that would convince me that he was very sane. 92 00:04:14,239 --> 00:04:16,072 And he sat down. 93 00:04:16,072 --> 00:04:18,673 And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?" 94 00:04:18,673 --> 00:04:22,455 And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17. 95 00:04:22,455 --> 00:04:24,775 And I was in prison awaiting trial, 96 00:04:24,775 --> 00:04:26,287 and my cellmate said to me, 97 00:04:26,287 --> 00:04:27,839 'You know what you have to do? 98 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,323 Fake madness. 99 00:04:29,323 --> 00:04:32,607 Tell them you're mad. You'll get sent to some cushy hospital. 100 00:04:32,607 --> 00:04:35,288 Nurses will bring you pizzas. 101 00:04:35,288 --> 00:04:37,105 You'll have your own Playstation.'" 102 00:04:37,105 --> 00:04:38,988 So I said, "Well how did you do it?" 103 00:04:38,988 --> 00:04:41,605 He said, "I asked to see the prison psychiatrist. 104 00:04:41,605 --> 00:04:43,752 And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash' 105 00:04:43,752 --> 00:04:47,737 in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls. 106 00:04:47,737 --> 00:04:49,370 So I said to the psychiatrist, 107 00:04:49,370 --> 00:04:53,352 'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'" 108 00:04:53,352 --> 00:04:55,106 And I said, "What else?" 109 00:04:55,106 --> 00:04:57,452 He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist 110 00:04:57,452 --> 00:05:01,120 that I wanted to watch women as they died 111 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,468 because it would make me feel more normal." 112 00:05:03,468 --> 00:05:05,121 And I said, "Where'd you get that from?" 113 00:05:05,121 --> 00:05:07,871 He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy 114 00:05:07,871 --> 00:05:09,421 that they had at the prison library." 115 00:05:09,421 --> 00:05:13,740 Anyway he faked madness too well, he said. 116 00:05:13,740 --> 00:05:15,641 And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital. 117 00:05:15,641 --> 00:05:17,839 They sent him to Broadmoor. 118 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,889 And the minute he got there, 119 00:05:19,889 --> 00:05:22,656 he said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist, 120 00:05:22,656 --> 00:05:24,372 said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding. 121 00:05:24,372 --> 00:05:27,005 I'm not mentally ill." 122 00:05:27,005 --> 00:05:29,005 I said, "How long have you been here for?" 123 00:05:29,005 --> 00:05:33,339 He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison for the original crime, 124 00:05:33,339 --> 00:05:34,989 I'd have got five years. 125 00:05:34,989 --> 00:05:40,529 I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years." 126 00:05:40,529 --> 00:05:44,603 Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane 127 00:05:44,603 --> 00:05:47,104 than it is to convince them you're crazy. 128 00:05:47,104 --> 00:05:49,085 He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal 129 00:05:49,085 --> 00:05:51,686 would be to talk to people normally about normal things 130 00:05:51,686 --> 00:05:53,721 like football or what's on TV. 131 00:05:53,721 --> 00:05:55,770 I subscribe to New Scientist, 132 00:05:55,770 --> 00:05:57,969 and recently it had an article 133 00:05:57,969 --> 00:06:02,102 about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives. 134 00:06:02,102 --> 00:06:03,087 So I said to a nurse, 135 00:06:03,087 --> 00:06:06,168 'Did you know that the U.S. army is training bumblebees 136 00:06:06,168 --> 00:06:07,520 to sniff out explosives?' 137 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,321 When I read my medical notes, 138 00:06:09,321 --> 00:06:10,552 I saw they'd written: 139 00:06:10,552 --> 00:06:14,836 'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'" 140 00:06:14,836 --> 00:06:17,222 He said, "You know, they're always looking out 141 00:06:17,222 --> 00:06:20,020 for non-verbal clues to my mental state. 142 00:06:20,020 --> 00:06:23,436 But how do you sit in a sane way? 143 00:06:23,436 --> 00:06:25,852 How do you cross your legs in a sane way? 144 00:06:25,852 --> 00:06:27,503 It's just impossible." 145 00:06:27,503 --> 00:06:28,885 And when Tony said that to me, 146 00:06:28,885 --> 00:06:32,106 I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist? 147 00:06:32,106 --> 00:06:35,553 Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?" 148 00:06:35,553 --> 00:06:41,215 He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me 149 00:06:41,231 --> 00:06:44,872 and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist on the other side of me. 150 00:06:44,872 --> 00:06:48,206 So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening. 151 00:06:48,206 --> 00:06:50,588 And they take that as a sign of madness. 152 00:06:50,588 --> 00:06:53,721 They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose." 153 00:06:53,721 --> 00:06:58,238 So only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers 154 00:06:58,238 --> 00:06:59,688 be a sign of madness. 155 00:06:59,688 --> 00:07:03,186 Anyway he seemed completely normal to me -- but what did I know? 156 00:07:03,186 --> 00:07:06,675 And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden. 157 00:07:06,675 --> 00:07:07,959 I said, "What's the story?" 158 00:07:07,959 --> 00:07:13,241 And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness to get out of a prison sentence 159 00:07:13,241 --> 00:07:17,758 because his hallucinations that had seemed quite cliché to begin with 160 00:07:17,758 --> 00:07:20,208 just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor. 161 00:07:20,208 --> 00:07:22,392 However, we have assessed him. 162 00:07:22,392 --> 00:07:26,775 And we have determined that what he is is a psychopath." 163 00:07:26,775 --> 00:07:28,679 And in fact, faking madness 164 00:07:28,679 --> 00:07:33,119 is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath. 165 00:07:33,119 --> 00:07:35,652 It's on the checklist: cunning and manipulative. 166 00:07:35,652 --> 00:07:37,701 So faking your brain going wrong 167 00:07:37,701 --> 00:07:40,820 is evidence that your brain has gone wrong. 168 00:07:40,820 --> 00:07:42,185 And I spoke to other experts, 169 00:07:42,185 --> 00:07:46,235 and they said the pinstriped suit -- classic psychopath. 170 00:07:46,235 --> 00:07:48,402 Speaks to items one and two on the checklist -- 171 00:07:48,402 --> 00:07:52,596 glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth. 172 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,913 And I said, "Well, what, he didn't want to hang out with the other patients?" 173 00:07:55,913 --> 00:08:00,412 Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy. 174 00:08:00,412 --> 00:08:04,145 So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony 175 00:08:04,145 --> 00:08:06,664 was evidence, according to his clinician, 176 00:08:06,664 --> 00:08:09,098 that he was mad in this new way. 177 00:08:09,098 --> 00:08:10,932 He was a psychopath. 178 00:08:10,932 --> 00:08:12,147 And his clinician said to me, 179 00:08:12,147 --> 00:08:14,164 "If you want to know more about psychopaths, 180 00:08:14,164 --> 00:08:17,231 you can go on a psychopath spotting course 181 00:08:17,231 --> 00:08:20,546 run by Robert Hare who invented the psychopath checklist." 182 00:08:20,546 --> 00:08:21,730 So I did. 183 00:08:21,730 --> 00:08:23,797 I went on a psychopath spotting course, 184 00:08:23,797 --> 00:08:27,613 and I am now a certified -- 185 00:08:27,613 --> 00:08:30,709 and I have to say, extremely adept -- 186 00:08:30,709 --> 00:08:32,513 psychopath spotter. 187 00:08:32,513 --> 00:08:35,481 So here's the statistics: 188 00:08:35,481 --> 00:08:40,339 One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath. 189 00:08:40,339 --> 00:08:43,823 So there's 1,500 people in his room. 190 00:08:43,823 --> 00:08:49,631 Fifteen of you are psychopaths. 191 00:08:49,631 --> 00:08:51,914 Although that figure rises to four percent 192 00:08:51,914 --> 00:08:54,864 of CEO's and business leaders. 193 00:08:54,864 --> 00:08:57,596 So I think there's a very good chance 194 00:08:57,596 --> 00:09:02,597 there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room. 195 00:09:02,597 --> 00:09:05,180 It could be carnage by the end of the night. 196 00:09:05,192 --> 00:09:08,897 (Laughter) (Laughs) 197 00:09:08,897 --> 00:09:14,442 Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless 198 00:09:14,442 --> 00:09:17,260 rewards psychopathic behavior -- 199 00:09:17,260 --> 00:09:22,221 the lack of empathy, the glibness, 200 00:09:22,221 --> 00:09:24,461 cunning, manipulative. 201 00:09:24,461 --> 00:09:27,178 In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless, 202 00:09:27,178 --> 00:09:31,578 is a physical manifestation of psychopathy. 203 00:09:31,578 --> 00:09:33,495 It's like a form of psychopathy 204 00:09:33,495 --> 00:09:37,642 that's come down to affect us all. 205 00:09:37,642 --> 00:09:40,110 And Hare said to me, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor 206 00:09:40,110 --> 00:09:42,061 who may or may not have faked madness. 207 00:09:42,061 --> 00:09:43,559 Who cares? That's not a big story. 208 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,210 The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy. 209 00:09:46,210 --> 00:09:50,743 You want to go an interview yourself some corporate psychopaths." 210 00:09:50,743 --> 00:09:53,836 So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people. 211 00:09:53,843 --> 00:09:55,692 I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison 212 00:09:55,692 --> 00:09:57,726 to find out it you're psychopaths?" 213 00:09:57,726 --> 00:10:01,994 And they didn't reply. 214 00:10:01,994 --> 00:10:04,376 So I changed tack. 215 00:10:04,376 --> 00:10:07,676 I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap, 216 00:10:07,676 --> 00:10:10,795 the asset stripper from the 1990s. 217 00:10:10,795 --> 00:10:15,529 He would come into failing businesses and close down 30 percent of the workforce, 218 00:10:15,529 --> 00:10:18,697 just turn American towns into ghost towns. 219 00:10:18,697 --> 00:10:20,327 And I emailed him and I said, 220 00:10:20,327 --> 00:10:22,395 "I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly 221 00:10:22,395 --> 00:10:24,794 that makes you special 222 00:10:24,794 --> 00:10:29,293 and interested in the predatory spirit and fearless. 223 00:10:29,293 --> 00:10:31,061 Can I come and interview you 224 00:10:31,061 --> 00:10:32,728 about your special brain anomaly?" 225 00:10:32,728 --> 00:10:36,211 And he said, "Come on over." 226 00:10:36,211 --> 00:10:39,110 So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion 227 00:10:39,110 --> 00:10:43,844 that was filled with sculptures of predatory animals. 228 00:10:43,844 --> 00:10:46,929 There were lions and tigers. 229 00:10:46,929 --> 00:10:47,980 He was taking me through the garden. 230 00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:50,699 There were falcons and eagles. 231 00:10:50,699 --> 00:10:52,429 He was saying to me, "Over there you've got sharks." 232 00:10:52,429 --> 00:10:55,114 He was saying this in a less effeminate way. 233 00:10:55,114 --> 00:11:00,835 "You've got more sharks and you've got tigers." 234 00:11:00,835 --> 00:11:02,830 It was like Narnia. 235 00:11:02,830 --> 00:11:06,120 (Laughter) 236 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,772 And then we went into his kitchen. 237 00:11:08,772 --> 00:11:12,948 Now Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies. 238 00:11:12,948 --> 00:11:15,129 He'd close down 30 percent of the workforce. 239 00:11:15,129 --> 00:11:18,400 And he'd quite often fire people with a joke. 240 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,205 For instance, one famous story about him, 241 00:11:21,205 --> 00:11:24,120 somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car." 242 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,113 And he said, "You may have a new car, 243 00:11:26,113 --> 00:11:31,836 but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job." 244 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:34,656 So in his kitchen -- he was standing there with his wife, Judy, 245 00:11:34,656 --> 00:11:37,529 and his bodyguard Shawn -- and I said, "You know how I said in my email 246 00:11:37,529 --> 00:11:41,343 that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?" 247 00:11:41,343 --> 00:11:42,943 He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory. 248 00:11:42,943 --> 00:11:46,176 It's like Star Trek. You're going where no man has gone before." 249 00:11:46,176 --> 00:11:54,027 And I said, "Well, some psychologists might say 250 00:11:54,027 --> 00:11:56,976 that this makes you ... " (Mumbles) 251 00:11:56,976 --> 00:11:58,627 (Laughter) 252 00:11:58,627 --> 00:12:00,394 And he said, "What?" 253 00:12:00,394 --> 00:12:02,427 And I said, "A psychopath." 254 00:12:02,427 --> 00:12:06,609 And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket. 255 00:12:06,609 --> 00:12:08,893 Can I go through them with you?" 256 00:12:08,893 --> 00:12:11,510 And he looked intrigued despite himself, 257 00:12:11,510 --> 00:12:12,909 and he said, "Okay, go on." 258 00:12:12,909 --> 00:12:16,343 And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth." 259 00:12:16,343 --> 00:12:18,842 Which, I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny 260 00:12:18,842 --> 00:12:22,043 because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself. 261 00:12:22,043 --> 00:12:26,520 (Laughter) 262 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,073 He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!" 263 00:12:30,073 --> 00:12:32,668 And I said, "Manipulative." 264 00:12:32,668 --> 00:12:35,719 He said, "That's leadership." 265 00:12:35,719 --> 00:12:37,585 And I said, "Shallow affect: 266 00:12:37,585 --> 00:12:39,869 an inability to experience a range of emotions." 267 00:12:39,869 --> 00:12:43,486 He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?" 268 00:12:43,486 --> 00:12:45,953 So he was going down the psychopathic checklist, 269 00:12:45,953 --> 00:12:49,186 basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?" 270 00:12:49,186 --> 00:12:53,181 (Laughter) 271 00:12:53,181 --> 00:12:55,881 But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap. 272 00:12:55,881 --> 00:12:58,469 Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal -- 273 00:12:58,469 --> 00:13:01,635 like he said no to juvenile delinquency. 274 00:13:01,635 --> 00:13:03,021 He said he got accepted into West Point, 275 00:13:03,021 --> 00:13:06,269 and they don't let delinquents in West Point. 276 00:13:06,269 --> 00:13:09,118 He said no to many short-term marital relationships. 277 00:13:09,118 --> 00:13:10,603 He's only ever been married twice. 278 00:13:10,603 --> 00:13:13,837 Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers 279 00:13:13,837 --> 00:13:16,004 that he once threatened her with a knife 280 00:13:16,004 --> 00:13:18,570 and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like, 281 00:13:18,570 --> 00:13:22,537 but people say stupid things to each other in bad marriages in the heat of an argument 282 00:13:22,537 --> 00:13:25,636 and his second marriage has lasted 41 years. 283 00:13:25,636 --> 00:13:29,255 So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic, 284 00:13:29,255 --> 00:13:32,769 I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book. 285 00:13:32,769 --> 00:13:36,736 And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter 286 00:13:36,736 --> 00:13:40,436 had turned me a little bit psychopathic. 287 00:13:40,436 --> 00:13:45,404 Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked psychopath. 288 00:13:45,404 --> 00:13:50,070 I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges. 289 00:13:50,070 --> 00:13:53,337 And I realized, oh my God. This is what I've been doing for 20 years. 290 00:13:53,337 --> 00:13:55,037 It's what all journalists do. 291 00:13:55,037 --> 00:13:58,521 We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands, 292 00:13:58,521 --> 00:14:00,420 and we wait for the gems. 293 00:14:00,420 --> 00:14:04,948 And the gems are always the outermost aspects 294 00:14:04,948 --> 00:14:06,987 of our interviewee's personality. 295 00:14:06,987 --> 00:14:10,239 And we stitch them together like medieval monks. 296 00:14:10,239 --> 00:14:14,104 And we leave the normal stuff on the floor. 297 00:14:14,104 --> 00:14:21,271 And this is a country that over-diagnoses certain mental disorders hugely. 298 00:14:21,271 --> 00:14:24,337 Childhood bipolar -- children as young as four 299 00:14:24,337 --> 00:14:26,287 are being labeled bipolar 300 00:14:26,287 --> 00:14:28,670 because they have temper tantrums, 301 00:14:28,670 --> 00:14:33,054 which scores them high on their bipolar checklist. 302 00:14:33,054 --> 00:14:37,437 When I got back to London, Tony phoned me. 303 00:14:37,437 --> 00:14:40,287 He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?" 304 00:14:40,287 --> 00:14:43,679 I said, "Well they say that you're a psychopath." 305 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:45,973 And he said, "I'm not a psychopath." 306 00:14:45,973 --> 00:14:48,869 He said, "You know what, one of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse, 307 00:14:48,869 --> 00:14:52,154 but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative. 308 00:14:52,154 --> 00:14:54,739 So when you say you feel remorse for your crime, 309 00:14:54,739 --> 00:14:56,503 they say, 'Typical of the psychopath 310 00:14:56,503 --> 00:14:59,888 to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.' 311 00:14:59,888 --> 00:15:03,387 It's like witchcraft. They turn everything upside-down." 312 00:15:03,387 --> 00:15:05,869 He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up. 313 00:15:05,869 --> 00:15:08,240 Will you come to it?" 314 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,155 So I said okay. 315 00:15:10,155 --> 00:15:13,047 So I went to his tribunal. 316 00:15:13,047 --> 00:15:17,504 And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go. 317 00:15:17,504 --> 00:15:20,752 They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely 318 00:15:20,752 --> 00:15:23,888 because he scores high on a checklist 319 00:15:23,888 --> 00:15:29,271 that might mean that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism. 320 00:15:29,271 --> 00:15:31,154 So they let him go. 321 00:15:31,154 --> 00:15:32,863 And outside in the corridor he said to me, 322 00:15:32,863 --> 00:15:34,406 "You know what, Jon? 323 00:15:34,406 --> 00:15:36,829 Everyone's a bit psychopathic." 324 00:15:36,829 --> 00:15:40,911 He said, "You are. I am. Well obviously I am." 325 00:15:40,911 --> 00:15:43,411 I said, "What are you going to do now?" 326 00:15:43,411 --> 00:15:46,129 He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium 327 00:15:46,129 --> 00:15:47,929 because there's a woman there that I fancy. 328 00:15:47,929 --> 00:15:51,128 But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband." 329 00:15:51,128 --> 00:15:55,721 (Laughter) 330 00:15:55,721 --> 00:15:58,777 Anyway, that was two years ago, 331 00:15:58,777 --> 00:16:00,784 and that's where my book ended. 332 00:16:00,784 --> 00:16:05,251 And for the last 20 months everything was fine. 333 00:16:05,251 --> 00:16:07,385 Nothing bad happened. 334 00:16:07,385 --> 00:16:09,256 He was living with a girl outside London. 335 00:16:09,256 --> 00:16:11,234 He was, according to Brian the Scientologist, 336 00:16:11,234 --> 00:16:14,598 making up for lost time -- which I know sounds ominous, 337 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,300 but isn't necessarily ominous. 338 00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:18,883 Unfortunately, after 20 months, 339 00:16:18,883 --> 00:16:21,267 he did go back to jail for a month. 340 00:16:21,267 --> 00:16:25,633 He got into a fracas in a bar, he called it -- 341 00:16:25,633 --> 00:16:27,701 ended up going to jail for a month, 342 00:16:27,701 --> 00:16:28,751 which I know is bad, 343 00:16:28,751 --> 00:16:31,984 but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was, 344 00:16:31,984 --> 00:16:34,517 it wasn't too bad. 345 00:16:34,517 --> 00:16:37,805 And then he phoned me. 346 00:16:37,805 --> 00:16:42,354 And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out. 347 00:16:42,354 --> 00:16:46,255 Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges. 348 00:16:46,255 --> 00:16:49,737 And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath. 349 00:16:49,737 --> 00:16:55,437 He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas. 350 00:16:55,437 --> 00:16:59,855 But the gray areas are where you find the complexity, 351 00:16:59,855 --> 00:17:03,237 it's where you find the humanity 352 00:17:03,237 --> 00:17:06,139 and it's where you find the truth. 353 00:17:06,139 --> 00:17:08,253 And Tony said to me, 354 00:17:08,253 --> 00:17:12,138 "Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar? 355 00:17:12,138 --> 00:17:15,445 I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me." 356 00:17:15,445 --> 00:17:20,501 And I didn't go. What would you have done? 357 00:17:20,501 --> 00:17:21,811 Thank you. 358 00:17:21,811 --> 00:17:38,572 (Applause)