WEBVTT 00:00:00.947 --> 00:00:04.318 The story starts: I was at a friend's house, 00:00:04.342 --> 00:00:08.380 and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual, 00:00:08.404 --> 00:00:10.616 which is the manual of mental disorders. 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:13.910 It lists every known mental disorder. 00:00:13.934 --> 00:00:16.967 And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet. 00:00:16.991 --> 00:00:19.616 And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger, 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:22.722 and now it's 886 pages long. 00:00:22.746 --> 00:00:27.090 And it lists currently 374 mental disorders. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:27.448 --> 00:00:28.832 So I was leafing through it, 00:00:28.856 --> 00:00:31.773 wondering if I had any mental disorders, 00:00:31.797 --> 00:00:33.458 and it turns out I've got 12. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:33.482 --> 00:00:34.633 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:00:34.657 --> 00:00:37.355 I've got generalized anxiety disorder, 00:00:37.379 --> 00:00:38.625 which is a given. 00:00:38.649 --> 00:00:40.665 I've got nightmare disorder, 00:00:40.689 --> 00:00:42.054 which is categorized 00:00:42.078 --> 00:00:46.118 if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure, 00:00:46.142 --> 00:00:49.817 and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street 00:00:49.841 --> 00:00:51.465 going, "You're a failure!" NOTE Paragraph 00:00:51.489 --> 00:00:53.272 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:00:53.296 --> 00:00:56.398 I've got parent-child relational problems, 00:00:56.422 --> 00:00:58.367 which I blame my parents for. NOTE Paragraph 00:00:58.391 --> 00:01:00.286 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:01:00.310 --> 00:01:02.668 I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. 00:01:02.692 --> 00:01:03.842 I'm kidding. 00:01:04.628 --> 00:01:05.864 And I've got malingering. 00:01:05.888 --> 00:01:07.624 And I think it's actually quite rare 00:01:07.648 --> 00:01:10.664 to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder, 00:01:10.688 --> 00:01:13.399 because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:13.423 --> 00:01:15.411 Anyway, I was looking through this book, 00:01:15.435 --> 00:01:18.036 wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was, 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:21.593 or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder 00:01:21.617 --> 00:01:23.743 if you're not a trained professional, 00:01:23.767 --> 00:01:28.640 or maybe the psychiatry profession has a kind of strange desire 00:01:28.664 --> 00:01:33.030 to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder. 00:01:33.054 --> 00:01:36.832 I didn't know which of these was true, but I thought it was kind of interesting, 00:01:36.856 --> 00:01:39.716 and I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry 00:01:39.740 --> 00:01:41.124 to get their view, 00:01:41.148 --> 00:01:44.486 which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists. NOTE Paragraph 00:01:44.510 --> 00:01:45.746 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:01:45.770 --> 00:01:50.268 It was a man called Brian, who runs a crack team of Scientologists 00:01:50.292 --> 00:01:54.560 who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies. 00:01:54.584 --> 00:01:56.573 They're called the CCHR. 00:01:56.597 --> 00:01:59.548 And I said to him, "Can you prove to me 00:01:59.572 --> 00:02:03.049 that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?" 00:02:03.652 --> 00:02:05.839 And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you." 00:02:05.863 --> 00:02:07.276 And I said, "How?" 00:02:07.300 --> 00:02:10.085 And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony." 00:02:11.093 --> 00:02:12.344 And I said, "Who's Tony?" 00:02:12.974 --> 00:02:16.283 And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor." 00:02:16.307 --> 00:02:18.617 Now, Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital. 00:02:18.641 --> 00:02:23.275 It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane. 00:02:23.299 --> 00:02:25.735 It's where they send the serial killers, 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:27.815 and the people who can't help themselves. 00:02:27.839 --> 00:02:30.996 And I said to Brian, "Well, what did Tony do?" 00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:33.469 And he said, "Hardly anything. 00:02:34.168 --> 00:02:37.106 He beat someone up or something, 00:02:37.130 --> 00:02:42.225 and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence. 00:02:42.249 --> 00:02:46.762 But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor 00:02:46.786 --> 00:02:49.247 and nobody will believe he's sane. 00:02:49.271 --> 00:02:53.008 Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?" 00:02:53.032 --> 00:02:54.244 So I said, "Yes, please." NOTE Paragraph 00:02:55.386 --> 00:02:56.910 So I got the train to Broadmoor. 00:02:56.934 --> 00:03:01.029 I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park, 00:03:01.053 --> 00:03:03.435 which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious, 00:03:03.459 --> 00:03:05.712 they yawn uncontrollably. 00:03:05.736 --> 00:03:07.012 And we got to Broadmoor. 00:03:07.458 --> 00:03:11.911 And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate 00:03:11.935 --> 00:03:15.432 into the wellness center, which is where you get to meet the patients. 00:03:15.456 --> 00:03:18.894 It looks like a giant Hampton Inn. 00:03:18.918 --> 00:03:22.829 It's all peach and pine and calming colors. 00:03:22.853 --> 00:03:28.045 And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons. 00:03:29.067 --> 00:03:30.914 And the patients started drifting in. 00:03:32.148 --> 00:03:35.729 And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants, 00:03:35.753 --> 00:03:37.412 and quite docile-looking. 00:03:37.436 --> 00:03:40.175 And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me, 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:42.109 "They're medicated," 00:03:42.133 --> 00:03:45.352 which, to the Scientologists, is like the worst evil in the world, 00:03:45.376 --> 00:03:47.957 but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea. NOTE Paragraph 00:03:47.981 --> 00:03:49.577 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:03:50.096 --> 00:03:52.160 And then Brian said, "Here's Tony." 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:54.678 And a man was walking in. 00:03:55.165 --> 00:03:58.269 And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape. 00:03:58.293 --> 00:04:00.596 And he wasn't wearing sweatpants, 00:04:00.620 --> 00:04:03.010 he was wearing a pinstripe suit. 00:04:03.034 --> 00:04:05.030 And he had his arm outstretched 00:04:05.054 --> 00:04:07.114 like someone out of The Apprentice. 00:04:07.138 --> 00:04:10.420 He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit 00:04:10.444 --> 00:04:14.215 that would convince me that he was very sane. NOTE Paragraph 00:04:15.003 --> 00:04:16.154 And he sat down. 00:04:16.178 --> 00:04:19.083 And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?" 00:04:19.503 --> 00:04:22.947 And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17. 00:04:22.971 --> 00:04:25.053 And I was in prison awaiting trial, 00:04:25.077 --> 00:04:26.392 and my cellmate said to me, 00:04:26.416 --> 00:04:27.900 'You know what you have to do? 00:04:27.924 --> 00:04:29.299 Fake madness. 00:04:29.912 --> 00:04:33.523 Tell them you're mad, you'll get sent to some cushy hospital. 00:04:33.547 --> 00:04:37.378 Nurses will bring you pizzas, you'll have your own PlayStation.'" 00:04:37.402 --> 00:04:39.094 I said, "Well, how did you do it?" 00:04:39.118 --> 00:04:41.861 He said, "Well, I asked to see the prison psychiatrist. 00:04:41.885 --> 00:04:44.172 And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash,' 00:04:44.196 --> 00:04:48.299 in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls. 00:04:48.323 --> 00:04:50.272 So I said to the psychiatrist, 00:04:50.296 --> 00:04:54.061 'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'" 00:04:54.085 --> 00:04:55.510 And I said, "What else?" 00:04:55.534 --> 00:04:58.187 He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist 00:04:58.211 --> 00:05:01.495 that I wanted to watch women as they died, 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:03.684 because it would make me feel more normal." 00:05:03.708 --> 00:05:05.430 I said, "Where'd you get that from?" 00:05:05.454 --> 00:05:08.238 He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy that they had 00:05:08.262 --> 00:05:09.455 at the prison library." NOTE Paragraph 00:05:10.489 --> 00:05:13.716 Anyway, he faked madness too well, he said. 00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:16.210 And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital. 00:05:16.234 --> 00:05:17.815 They sent him to Broadmoor. 00:05:18.539 --> 00:05:19.876 And the minute he got there, 00:05:19.900 --> 00:05:23.006 said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist, 00:05:23.030 --> 00:05:25.548 said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding. 00:05:25.572 --> 00:05:26.981 I'm not mentally ill." 00:05:27.772 --> 00:05:30.038 I said, "How long have you been here for?" 00:05:30.062 --> 00:05:32.408 He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison 00:05:32.432 --> 00:05:35.135 for the original crime, I'd have got five years. 00:05:35.572 --> 00:05:38.027 I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years." NOTE Paragraph 00:05:40.911 --> 00:05:44.940 Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane 00:05:44.964 --> 00:05:47.448 than it is to convince them you're crazy. 00:05:47.472 --> 00:05:49.695 He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal 00:05:49.719 --> 00:05:52.339 would be to talk to people normally about normal things 00:05:52.363 --> 00:05:54.241 like football or what's on TV. 00:05:54.265 --> 00:05:56.003 I subscribe to New Scientist, 00:05:56.027 --> 00:05:57.694 and recently they had an article 00:05:57.718 --> 00:06:02.078 about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives. 00:06:02.102 --> 00:06:03.521 So I said to a nurse, 00:06:03.545 --> 00:06:06.144 'Did you know that the U.S. Army is training bumblebees 00:06:06.168 --> 00:06:07.496 to sniff out explosives?' 00:06:08.587 --> 00:06:11.042 When I read my medical notes, I saw they'd written: 00:06:11.386 --> 00:06:14.398 'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'" NOTE Paragraph 00:06:14.422 --> 00:06:15.976 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.107 He said, "You know, they're always looking out for nonverbal clues 00:06:19.131 --> 00:06:20.871 to my mental state. 00:06:20.895 --> 00:06:23.532 But how do you sit in a sane way? 00:06:23.556 --> 00:06:25.828 How do you cross your legs in a sane way? 00:06:25.852 --> 00:06:27.360 It's just impossible." 00:06:27.676 --> 00:06:28.933 When Tony said that to me, 00:06:28.957 --> 00:06:32.466 I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist? 00:06:32.847 --> 00:06:35.156 Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?" NOTE Paragraph 00:06:36.072 --> 00:06:41.144 He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me, 00:06:41.168 --> 00:06:43.557 and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist 00:06:43.581 --> 00:06:44.948 on the other side of me. 00:06:44.972 --> 00:06:48.421 So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening. 00:06:48.445 --> 00:06:50.706 And they take that as a sign of madness. 00:06:50.730 --> 00:06:54.245 They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose." 00:06:54.693 --> 00:06:58.489 So, only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers 00:06:58.513 --> 00:07:00.100 be a sign of madness. 00:07:00.124 --> 00:07:03.200 Anyway, he seemed completely normal to me, but what did I know? NOTE Paragraph 00:07:03.914 --> 00:07:06.734 And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden. 00:07:06.758 --> 00:07:08.332 I said, "What's the story?" 00:07:08.356 --> 00:07:11.867 And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness 00:07:11.891 --> 00:07:15.657 to get out of a prison sentence, because his hallucinations -- 00:07:15.681 --> 00:07:17.832 that had seemed quite cliche to begin with -- 00:07:17.856 --> 00:07:20.474 just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor. 00:07:20.498 --> 00:07:22.703 However, we have assessed him, 00:07:22.727 --> 00:07:25.140 and we've determined that what he is 00:07:25.164 --> 00:07:26.552 is a psychopath." 00:07:26.983 --> 00:07:28.791 And in fact, faking madness 00:07:28.815 --> 00:07:33.181 is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath. 00:07:33.205 --> 00:07:35.623 It's on the checklist: cunning, manipulative. 00:07:36.150 --> 00:07:37.727 So, faking your brain going wrong 00:07:37.751 --> 00:07:40.983 is evidence that your brain has gone wrong. 00:07:41.007 --> 00:07:42.579 And I spoke to other experts, 00:07:42.603 --> 00:07:46.542 and they said the pinstripe suit -- classic psychopath -- 00:07:46.566 --> 00:07:48.844 speaks to items one and two on the checklist: 00:07:48.868 --> 00:07:52.212 glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth. 00:07:52.709 --> 00:07:56.321 And I said, "Well, but why didn't he hang out with the other patients?" 00:07:56.345 --> 00:08:00.275 Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy. 00:08:00.718 --> 00:08:04.182 So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony 00:08:04.206 --> 00:08:07.231 was evidence, according to his clinician, 00:08:07.255 --> 00:08:09.079 that he was mad in this new way. 00:08:09.430 --> 00:08:10.833 He was a psychopath. NOTE Paragraph 00:08:10.857 --> 00:08:14.382 And his clinician said to me, "If you want to know more about psychopaths, 00:08:14.406 --> 00:08:17.611 you can go on a psychopath-spotting course 00:08:17.635 --> 00:08:20.522 run by Robert Hare, who invented the psychopath checklist." 00:08:20.546 --> 00:08:21.706 So I did. 00:08:21.730 --> 00:08:23.773 I went on a psychopath-spotting course, 00:08:23.797 --> 00:08:27.974 and I am now a certified -- 00:08:27.998 --> 00:08:32.257 and I have to say, extremely adept -- psychopath spotter. NOTE Paragraph 00:08:32.934 --> 00:08:36.179 So, here's the statistics: 00:08:36.203 --> 00:08:40.325 One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath. 00:08:40.995 --> 00:08:44.828 So there's 1,500 people in his room. 00:08:44.852 --> 00:08:47.895 Fifteen of you are psychopaths. 00:08:49.831 --> 00:08:54.813 Although that figure rises to four percent of CEOs and business leaders, 00:08:54.837 --> 00:08:57.572 so I think there's a very good chance 00:08:57.596 --> 00:09:02.710 there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room. 00:09:02.734 --> 00:09:05.168 It could be carnage by the end of the night. NOTE Paragraph 00:09:05.192 --> 00:09:09.648 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:09:09.672 --> 00:09:14.568 Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless 00:09:14.592 --> 00:09:17.236 rewards psychopathic behavior -- 00:09:17.260 --> 00:09:22.197 the lack of empathy, the glibness, 00:09:22.221 --> 00:09:24.579 cunning, manipulative. 00:09:24.603 --> 00:09:27.568 In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless, 00:09:27.592 --> 00:09:31.371 is a physical manifestation of psychopathy. 00:09:32.117 --> 00:09:36.970 It's like a form of psychopathy that's come down to affect us all. 00:09:37.307 --> 00:09:40.178 Hare said, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor 00:09:40.202 --> 00:09:42.017 who may or may not have faked madness. 00:09:42.041 --> 00:09:43.662 Who cares? That's not a big story. 00:09:43.686 --> 00:09:46.579 The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy. 00:09:46.603 --> 00:09:50.434 You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths." NOTE Paragraph 00:09:50.956 --> 00:09:54.139 So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people. 00:09:54.163 --> 00:09:56.509 I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison, 00:09:56.533 --> 00:09:58.303 to find out it you're psychopaths?" NOTE Paragraph 00:09:58.327 --> 00:09:59.557 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:09:59.581 --> 00:10:00.857 And they didn't reply. NOTE Paragraph 00:10:00.881 --> 00:10:02.431 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:10:02.455 --> 00:10:04.352 So I changed tack. 00:10:04.376 --> 00:10:07.652 I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap, 00:10:07.676 --> 00:10:11.215 the asset stripper from the 1990s. 00:10:11.239 --> 00:10:13.446 He would come into failing businesses 00:10:13.470 --> 00:10:15.505 and close down 30 percent of the workforce, 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:18.673 just turn American towns into ghost towns. 00:10:18.697 --> 00:10:20.150 And I emailed him and I said, 00:10:20.174 --> 00:10:22.968 "I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly 00:10:22.992 --> 00:10:25.003 that makes you ... special, 00:10:25.027 --> 00:10:29.388 and interested in the predatory spirit, and fearless. 00:10:29.412 --> 00:10:32.864 Can I come and interview you about your special brain anomaly?" 00:10:32.888 --> 00:10:34.706 And he said, "Come on over!" NOTE Paragraph 00:10:34.730 --> 00:10:36.091 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:10:36.115 --> 00:10:39.167 So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion. 00:10:39.191 --> 00:10:43.899 It was filled with sculptures of predatory animals. 00:10:44.262 --> 00:10:47.901 There were lions and tigers -- he was taking me through the garden -- 00:10:47.925 --> 00:10:50.617 there were falcons and eagles, 00:10:50.641 --> 00:10:53.145 he was saying, "Over there you've got sharks and --" 00:10:53.169 --> 00:10:55.382 he was saying this in a less effeminate way -- 00:10:55.406 --> 00:10:59.608 "You've got more sharks and you've got tigers." 00:11:01.106 --> 00:11:02.806 It was like Narnia. NOTE Paragraph 00:11:02.830 --> 00:11:06.308 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:11:06.332 --> 00:11:07.978 And then we went into his kitchen. 00:11:08.772 --> 00:11:12.924 Now, Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies, 00:11:12.948 --> 00:11:15.371 he'd close down 30 percent of the workforce. 00:11:15.395 --> 00:11:18.574 And he'd quite often fire people with a joke. 00:11:18.598 --> 00:11:20.943 Like, for instance, one famous story about him, 00:11:20.967 --> 00:11:24.419 somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car." 00:11:24.443 --> 00:11:26.451 And he said, "Well, you may have a new car, 00:11:26.475 --> 00:11:29.980 but I'll tell you what you don't have -- a job." NOTE Paragraph 00:11:31.542 --> 00:11:32.698 So in his kitchen -- 00:11:32.722 --> 00:11:35.680 he was in there with his wife, Judy, and his bodyguard, Sean -- 00:11:35.704 --> 00:11:37.760 and I said, "You know how I said in my email 00:11:37.784 --> 00:11:41.420 that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?" 00:11:41.444 --> 00:11:44.346 He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory, it's like Star Trek. 00:11:44.370 --> 00:11:46.582 You're going where no man has gone before." 00:11:46.606 --> 00:11:49.710 And I said, "Well --" (Clears throat) NOTE Paragraph 00:11:49.734 --> 00:11:51.063 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:11:51.087 --> 00:11:54.250 Some psychologists might say 00:11:54.274 --> 00:11:56.952 that this makes you --" (Mumbles) NOTE Paragraph 00:11:56.976 --> 00:11:58.603 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:11:58.627 --> 00:12:00.101 And he said, "What?" 00:12:00.841 --> 00:12:02.145 And I said, "A psychopath." 00:12:02.169 --> 00:12:06.548 And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket. 00:12:06.572 --> 00:12:08.731 Can I go through them with you?" NOTE Paragraph 00:12:09.393 --> 00:12:11.486 And he looked intrigued despite himself, 00:12:11.510 --> 00:12:12.885 and he said, "Okay, go on." 00:12:12.909 --> 00:12:16.292 And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth." 00:12:16.316 --> 00:12:19.092 Which I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny, 00:12:19.116 --> 00:12:22.500 because he was standing under a giant oil painting of himself. NOTE Paragraph 00:12:22.524 --> 00:12:26.675 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:12:26.699 --> 00:12:29.732 He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!" 00:12:29.756 --> 00:12:32.644 And I said, "Manipulative." 00:12:32.668 --> 00:12:34.361 He said, "That's leadership." NOTE Paragraph 00:12:34.385 --> 00:12:35.386 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:12:35.410 --> 00:12:37.816 And I said, "Shallow affect, 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.112 an inability to experience a range of emotions." 00:12:40.136 --> 00:12:43.742 He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?" 00:12:43.766 --> 00:12:45.937 So he was going down the psychopath checklist, 00:12:45.961 --> 00:12:49.162 basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?" NOTE Paragraph 00:12:49.186 --> 00:12:52.278 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:12:52.302 --> 00:12:55.722 But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap. 00:12:55.746 --> 00:12:58.643 Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal -- 00:12:58.667 --> 00:13:01.610 like he said "no" to juvenile delinquency, 00:13:01.634 --> 00:13:03.540 he said he got accepted into West Point, 00:13:03.564 --> 00:13:06.419 and they don't let delinquents in West Point. 00:13:06.443 --> 00:13:09.159 He said "no" to many short-term marital relationships. 00:13:09.183 --> 00:13:10.843 He's only ever been married twice. 00:13:10.867 --> 00:13:13.814 Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers 00:13:13.838 --> 00:13:16.278 that he once threatened her with a knife 00:13:16.302 --> 00:13:19.019 and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like, 00:13:19.043 --> 00:13:21.085 but people say stupid things to each other 00:13:21.109 --> 00:13:23.164 in bad marriages in the heat of an argument, 00:13:23.188 --> 00:13:26.209 and his second marriage has lasted 41 years. 00:13:26.233 --> 00:13:29.931 So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic, 00:13:29.955 --> 00:13:33.098 I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book. 00:13:33.608 --> 00:13:36.912 And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter 00:13:36.936 --> 00:13:40.412 had kind of turned me a little bit psychopathic. 00:13:40.436 --> 00:13:45.380 Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked "Psychopath." 00:13:45.404 --> 00:13:50.114 I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges. NOTE Paragraph 00:13:50.138 --> 00:13:51.340 And I realized, my God -- 00:13:51.364 --> 00:13:53.367 this is what I've been doing for 20 years. 00:13:53.391 --> 00:13:55.013 It's what all journalists do. 00:13:55.037 --> 00:13:58.497 We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands, 00:13:58.521 --> 00:14:00.316 and we wait for the gems. 00:14:00.982 --> 00:14:05.315 And the gems are always the outermost aspects 00:14:05.339 --> 00:14:06.968 of our interviewee's personality. 00:14:06.992 --> 00:14:10.466 And we stitch them together like medieval monks, 00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:14.017 and we leave the normal stuff on the floor. 00:14:14.927 --> 00:14:17.946 And you know, this is a country that over-diagnoses 00:14:17.970 --> 00:14:21.247 certain mental disorders hugely. 00:14:21.271 --> 00:14:22.613 Childhood bipolar -- 00:14:22.637 --> 00:14:26.192 children as young as four are being labeled bipolar 00:14:26.216 --> 00:14:28.646 because they have temper tantrums, 00:14:28.670 --> 00:14:32.384 which scores them high on the bipolar checklist. NOTE Paragraph 00:14:33.273 --> 00:14:36.236 When I got back to London, Tony phoned me. 00:14:37.437 --> 00:14:40.210 He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?" 00:14:40.234 --> 00:14:43.583 I said, "Well, they say that you're a psychopath." 00:14:43.607 --> 00:14:45.561 And he said, "I'm not a psychopath." 00:14:45.585 --> 00:14:46.744 He said, "You know what? 00:14:46.768 --> 00:14:49.440 One of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse, 00:14:49.464 --> 00:14:52.325 but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative. 00:14:52.349 --> 00:14:54.715 So when you say you feel remorse for your crime, 00:14:54.739 --> 00:14:56.479 they say, 'Typical of the psychopath 00:14:56.503 --> 00:14:59.880 to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.' 00:14:59.904 --> 00:15:02.972 It's like witchcraft, they turn everything upside-down." 00:15:04.321 --> 00:15:06.556 He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up. 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:07.820 Will you come to it?" 00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:09.897 So I said okay. NOTE Paragraph 00:15:10.523 --> 00:15:12.007 So I went to his tribunal. 00:15:12.935 --> 00:15:16.783 And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go. 00:15:17.841 --> 00:15:20.646 They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely 00:15:20.670 --> 00:15:24.360 because he scores high on a checklist that might mean 00:15:24.384 --> 00:15:28.915 that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism. 00:15:29.640 --> 00:15:31.130 So they let him go. 00:15:31.154 --> 00:15:33.175 And outside in the corridor he said to me, 00:15:33.199 --> 00:15:34.354 "You know what, Jon? 00:15:34.841 --> 00:15:36.804 Everyone's a bit psychopathic." 00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:40.887 He said, "You are, I am. Well, obviously I am." 00:15:42.016 --> 00:15:44.028 I said, "What are you going to do now?" 00:15:44.052 --> 00:15:46.235 He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium. 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:47.937 There's a woman there that I fancy. 00:15:47.961 --> 00:15:51.916 But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband." NOTE Paragraph 00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:55.697 (Laughter) NOTE Paragraph 00:15:56.075 --> 00:15:59.108 Anyway, that was two years ago, 00:15:59.132 --> 00:16:00.710 and that's where my book ended. 00:16:00.734 --> 00:16:05.296 And for the last 20 months, everything was fine. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.361 Nothing bad happened. 00:16:07.385 --> 00:16:09.524 He was living with a girl outside London. 00:16:09.548 --> 00:16:11.646 He was, according to Brian the Scientologist, 00:16:11.670 --> 00:16:14.696 making up for lost time, which I know sounds ominous, 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:16.276 but isn't necessarily ominous. 00:16:16.962 --> 00:16:18.859 Unfortunately, after 20 months, 00:16:18.883 --> 00:16:21.593 he did go back to jail for a month. 00:16:21.617 --> 00:16:25.773 He got into a "fracas" in a bar, he called it. 00:16:26.104 --> 00:16:28.745 Ended up going to jail for a month, which I know is bad, 00:16:28.769 --> 00:16:32.657 but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was, 00:16:32.681 --> 00:16:34.286 it wasn't too bad. NOTE Paragraph 00:16:35.069 --> 00:16:36.630 And then he phoned me. 00:16:37.802 --> 00:16:42.038 And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out. 00:16:42.898 --> 00:16:46.053 Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges. 00:16:46.077 --> 00:16:49.913 And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath. 00:16:50.332 --> 00:16:55.062 He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas. 00:16:55.796 --> 00:16:59.793 But the gray areas are where you find the complexity. 00:17:00.792 --> 00:17:03.213 It's where you find the humanity, 00:17:03.237 --> 00:17:05.111 and it's where you find the truth. 00:17:06.121 --> 00:17:08.229 And Tony said to me, 00:17:08.253 --> 00:17:12.125 "Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar? 00:17:12.149 --> 00:17:15.449 I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me." 00:17:15.473 --> 00:17:16.764 And I didn't go. 00:17:17.674 --> 00:17:19.494 What would you have done? NOTE Paragraph 00:17:20.501 --> 00:17:21.853 Thank you. NOTE Paragraph 00:17:21.877 --> 00:17:28.524 (Applause)