0:00:01.250,0:00:02.516
This will not be a speech

0:00:02.516,0:00:05.807
like any one I have ever given.

0:00:05.807,0:00:09.297
I will talk to you today about

0:00:09.297,0:00:14.187
the failure of leadership in global politics

0:00:14.187,0:00:17.185
and in our globalizing economy.

0:00:17.185,0:00:24.138
And I won't provide some feel-good, ready-made solutions.

0:00:24.138,0:00:26.672
But I will in the end urge you

0:00:26.672,0:00:32.115
to rethink, actually take risks, and get involved

0:00:32.115,0:00:35.520
in what I see as a global evolution

0:00:35.520,0:00:38.330
of democracy.

0:00:38.330,0:00:40.585
Failure of leadership.

0:00:40.585,0:00:43.346
What is the failure of leadership today?

0:00:43.346,0:00:46.813
And why is our democracy not working?

0:00:46.813,0:00:49.444
Well, I believe that the failure of leadership is the fact

0:00:49.444,0:00:53.997
that we have taken you out of the process.

0:00:53.997,0:00:56.513
So let me, from my personal experiences,

0:00:56.513,0:01:00.742
give you an insight, so that you can step back

0:01:00.742,0:01:04.414
and maybe understand why it is so difficult to cope

0:01:04.414,0:01:06.489
with the challenges of today and why politics

0:01:06.489,0:01:10.133
is going down a blind alley.

0:01:10.133,0:01:12.630
Let's start from the beginning.

0:01:12.630,0:01:16.426
Let's start from democracy.

0:01:16.426,0:01:18.451
Well, if you go back to the Ancient Greeks,

0:01:18.451,0:01:21.640
it was a revelation, a discovery,

0:01:21.640,0:01:26.157
that we had the potential, together,

0:01:26.157,0:01:29.878
to be masters of our own fate,

0:01:29.878,0:01:32.750
to be able to examine, to learn, to imagine,

0:01:32.750,0:01:36.083
and then to design a better life.

0:01:36.083,0:01:41.269
And democracy was the political innovation

0:01:41.269,0:01:43.771
which protected this freedom,

0:01:43.771,0:01:49.086
because we were liberated from fear

0:01:49.086,0:01:50.739
so that our minds in fact,

0:01:50.739,0:01:53.461
whether they be despots or dogmas,

0:01:53.461,0:01:57.864
could be the protagonists.

0:01:57.864,0:02:00.853
Democracy was the political innovation that allowed us

0:02:00.853,0:02:04.241
to limit the power, whether it was of tyrants

0:02:04.241,0:02:06.988
or of high priests,

0:02:06.988,0:02:11.826
their natural tendency to maximize power and wealth.

0:02:11.826,0:02:13.436
Well, I first began to understand this

0:02:13.436,0:02:15.558
when I was 14 years old.

0:02:15.558,0:02:17.668
I used to, to try to avoid homework,

0:02:17.668,0:02:22.844
sneak down to the living room and listen to my parents

0:02:22.844,0:02:24.544
and their friends debate heatedly.

0:02:24.544,0:02:26.922
You see, then Greece was

0:02:26.922,0:02:31.159
under control of a very powerful establishment

0:02:31.159,0:02:32.906
which was strangling the country,

0:02:32.906,0:02:35.599
and my father was heading a promising movement

0:02:35.599,0:02:38.419
to reimagine Greece, to imagine a Greece

0:02:38.419,0:02:40.862
where freedom reigned and where, maybe,

0:02:40.862,0:02:44.573
the people, the citizens, could actually rule their own country.

0:02:44.573,0:02:46.869
I used to join him in many of the campaigns,

0:02:46.869,0:02:48.808
and you can see me here next to him.

0:02:48.808,0:02:51.276
I'm the younger one there, to the side.

0:02:51.276,0:02:54.384
You may not recognize me because

0:02:54.384,0:02:56.612
I used to part my hair differently there.

0:02:56.612,0:02:58.489
(Laughter)

0:02:58.489,0:03:02.636
So in 1967, elections were coming,

0:03:02.636,0:03:04.480
things were going well in the campaign,

0:03:04.480,0:03:06.491
the house was electric.

0:03:06.491,0:03:08.779
We really could sense that there was going to be

0:03:08.779,0:03:12.776
a major progressive change in Greece.

0:03:12.776,0:03:17.728
Then one night, military trucks drive up to our house.

0:03:17.728,0:03:20.106
Soldiers storm the door.

0:03:20.106,0:03:24.276
They find me up on the top terrace.

0:03:24.276,0:03:26.231
A sergeant comes up to me with a machine gun,

0:03:26.231,0:03:28.190
puts it to my head, and says,

0:03:28.190,0:03:32.542
"Tell me where your father is or I will kill you."

0:03:32.542,0:03:36.724
My father, hiding nearby, reveals himself,

0:03:36.724,0:03:40.889
and was summarily taken to prison.

0:03:40.889,0:03:44.625
Well, we survived, but democracy did not.

0:03:44.625,0:03:47.137
Seven brutal years of dictatorship

0:03:47.137,0:03:50.929
which we spent in exile.

0:03:50.929,0:03:53.153
Now, today, our democracies are again

0:03:53.153,0:03:55.432
facing a moment of truth.

0:03:55.432,0:03:57.259
Let me tell you a story.

0:03:57.259,0:03:59.543
Sunday evening,

0:03:59.543,0:04:02.662
Brussels, April 2010.

0:04:02.662,0:04:06.215
I'm sitting with my counterparts in the European Union.

0:04:06.215,0:04:09.698
I had just been elected prime minister,

0:04:09.698,0:04:13.291
but I had the unhappy privilege of revealing a truth

0:04:13.291,0:04:16.712
that our deficit was not 6 percent,

0:04:16.712,0:04:20.258
as had been officially reported only a few days earlier

0:04:20.258,0:04:23.227
before the elections by the previous government,

0:04:23.227,0:04:28.115
but actually 15.6 percent.

0:04:28.115,0:04:30.547
But the deficit was only the symptom

0:04:30.547,0:04:32.863
of much deeper problems that Greece was facing,

0:04:32.863,0:04:36.794
and I had been elected on a mandate, a mission, actually,

0:04:36.794,0:04:38.039
to tackle these problems,

0:04:38.039,0:04:40.773
whether it was lack of transparency

0:04:40.773,0:04:43.074
and accountability in governance,

0:04:43.074,0:04:45.740
or whether it was a clientelistic state

0:04:45.740,0:04:50.293
offering favors to the powerful -- tax avoidance

0:04:50.293,0:04:55.020
abetted and aided by a global tax evasion system,

0:04:55.020,0:04:58.452
politics and media captured by special interests.

0:04:58.452,0:05:01.452
But despite our electoral mandate,

0:05:01.452,0:05:04.667
the markets mistrusted us.

0:05:04.667,0:05:07.433
Our borrowing costs were skyrocketing,

0:05:07.433,0:05:10.340
and we were facing possible default.

0:05:10.340,0:05:13.620
So I went to Brussels on a mission

0:05:13.620,0:05:17.634
to make the case for a united European response,

0:05:17.634,0:05:20.934
one that would calm the markets and give us the time

0:05:20.934,0:05:23.940
to make the necessary reforms.

0:05:23.940,0:05:26.844
But time we didn't get.

0:05:26.844,0:05:29.980
Picture yourselves around the table in Brussels.

0:05:29.980,0:05:32.871
Negotiations are difficult, the tensions are high,

0:05:32.871,0:05:35.748
progress is slow, and then, 10 minutes to 2,

0:05:35.748,0:05:37.320
a prime minister shouts out,

0:05:37.320,0:05:39.840
"We have to finish in 10 minutes."

0:05:39.840,0:05:42.473
I said, "Why? These are important decisions.

0:05:42.473,0:05:44.628
Let's deliberate a little bit longer."

0:05:44.628,0:05:47.711
Another prime minister comes in and says,

0:05:47.711,0:05:51.043
"No, we have to have an agreement now,

0:05:51.043,0:05:53.395
because in 10 minutes,

0:05:53.395,0:05:56.960
the markets are opening up in Japan,

0:05:56.960,0:06:01.409
and there will be havoc in the global economy."

0:06:01.409,0:06:04.822
We quickly came to a decision in those 10 minutes.

0:06:04.822,0:06:07.098
This time it was not the military,

0:06:07.098,0:06:13.586
but the markets, that put a gun to our collective heads.

0:06:13.586,0:06:17.769
What followed were the most difficult decisions in my life,

0:06:17.769,0:06:21.996
painful to me, painful to my countrymen,

0:06:21.996,0:06:25.018
imposing cuts, austerity,

0:06:25.018,0:06:28.244
often on those not to blame for the crisis.

0:06:28.244,0:06:31.371
With these sacrifices, Greece did avoid bankruptcy

0:06:31.371,0:06:34.523
and the eurozone avoided a collapse.

0:06:34.523,0:06:37.171
Greece, yes, triggered the Euro crisis,

0:06:37.171,0:06:40.289
and some people blame me for pulling the trigger.

0:06:40.289,0:06:43.336
But I think today that most would agree

0:06:43.336,0:06:45.702
that Greece was only a symptom

0:06:45.702,0:06:49.379
of much deeper structural problems in the eurozone,

0:06:49.379,0:06:53.571
vulnerabilities in the wider global economic system,

0:06:53.571,0:06:56.217
vulnerabilities of our democracies.

0:06:56.217,0:07:00.554
Our democracies are trapped by systems too big to fail,

0:07:00.554,0:07:03.923
or, more accurately, too big to control.

0:07:03.923,0:07:06.252
Our democracies are weakened in the global economy

0:07:06.252,0:07:09.723
with players that can evade laws, evade taxes,

0:07:09.723,0:07:13.044
evade environmental or labor standards.

0:07:13.044,0:07:15.926
Our democracies are undermined

0:07:15.926,0:07:18.084
by the growing inequality

0:07:18.084,0:07:21.864
and the growing concentration of power and wealth,

0:07:21.864,0:07:25.518
lobbies, corruption, the speed of the markets

0:07:25.518,0:07:30.357
or simply the fact that we sometimes fear an impending disaster,

0:07:30.357,0:07:33.077
have constrained our democracies,

0:07:33.077,0:07:35.965
and they have constrained our capacity

0:07:35.965,0:07:39.963
to imagine and actually use the potential, your potential,

0:07:39.963,0:07:42.478
in finding solutions.

0:07:42.478,0:07:44.933
Greece, you see, was only a preview

0:07:44.933,0:07:47.310
of what is in store for us all.

0:07:47.310,0:07:49.000
I, overly optimistically, had hoped

0:07:49.000,0:07:52.791
that this crisis was an opportunity for Greece, for Europe,

0:07:52.791,0:07:57.266
for the world, to make radical democratic transformations

0:07:57.266,0:07:59.143
in our institutions.

0:07:59.143,0:08:03.040
Instead, I had a very humbling experience.

0:08:03.040,0:08:07.521
In Brussels, when we tried desperately again and again

0:08:07.521,0:08:09.430
to find common solutions,

0:08:09.430,0:08:13.103
I realized that not one, not one of us,

0:08:13.103,0:08:16.574
had ever dealt with a similar crisis.

0:08:16.574,0:08:20.570
But worse, we were trapped by our collective ignorance.

0:08:20.570,0:08:24.038
We were led by our fears.

0:08:24.038,0:08:28.591
And our fears led to a blind faith

0:08:28.591,0:08:31.756
in the orthodoxy of austerity.

0:08:31.756,0:08:35.559
Instead of reaching out to the common

0:08:35.559,0:08:38.939
or the collective wisdom in our societies,

0:08:38.939,0:08:42.251
investing in it to find more creative solutions,

0:08:42.251,0:08:44.811
we reverted to political posturing.

0:08:44.811,0:08:46.417
And then we were surprised when every

0:08:46.417,0:08:49.715
ad hoc new measure didn't bring an end to the crisis,

0:08:49.715,0:08:52.644
and of course that made it very easy

0:08:52.644,0:08:54.491
to look for a whipping boy

0:08:54.491,0:08:56.289
for our collective European failure,

0:08:56.289,0:08:59.643
and of course that was Greece.

0:08:59.643,0:09:04.815
Those profligate, idle, ouzo-swilling, Zorba-dancing Greeks,

0:09:04.815,0:09:07.880
they are the problem. Punish them!

0:09:07.880,0:09:11.090
Well, a convenient but unfounded stereotype

0:09:11.090,0:09:15.823
that sometimes hurt even more than austerity itself.

0:09:15.823,0:09:19.135
But let me warn you, this is not just about Greece.

0:09:19.135,0:09:22.087
This could be the pattern

0:09:22.087,0:09:24.593
that leaders follow again and again

0:09:24.593,0:09:28.255
when we deal with these complex, cross-border problems,

0:09:28.255,0:09:31.975
whether it's climate change, whether it's migration,

0:09:31.975,0:09:35.039
whether it's the financial system.

0:09:35.039,0:09:37.625
That is, abandoning our collective power

0:09:37.625,0:09:39.504
to imagine our potential,

0:09:39.504,0:09:43.683
falling victims to our fears, our stereotypes, our dogmas,

0:09:43.683,0:09:45.943
taking our citizens out of the process

0:09:45.943,0:09:50.115
rather than building the process around our citizens.

0:09:50.115,0:09:52.587
And doing so will only test the faith

0:09:52.587,0:09:54.995
of our citizens, of our peoples, even more

0:09:54.995,0:09:57.557
in the democratic process.

0:09:57.557,0:09:59.255
It's no wonder that many political leaders,

0:09:59.255,0:10:01.773
and I don't exclude myself,

0:10:01.773,0:10:04.851
have lost the trust of our people.

0:10:04.851,0:10:08.414
When riot police have to protect parliaments,

0:10:08.414,0:10:12.611
a scene which is increasingly common around the world,

0:10:12.611,0:10:17.361
then there's something deeply wrong with our democracies.

0:10:17.361,0:10:21.266
That's why I called for a referendum to have the Greek people

0:10:21.266,0:10:25.502
own and decide on the terms of the rescue package.

0:10:25.502,0:10:27.405
My European counterparts, some of them, at least,

0:10:27.405,0:10:29.390
said, "You can't do this.

0:10:29.390,0:10:33.938
There will be havoc in the markets again."

0:10:33.938,0:10:38.194
I said, "We need to, before we restore confidence in the markets,

0:10:38.194,0:10:43.782
we need to restore confidence and trust amongst our people."

0:10:43.782,0:10:46.550
Since leaving office, I have had time to reflect.

0:10:46.550,0:10:51.670
We have weathered the storm, in Greece and in Europe,

0:10:51.670,0:10:54.243
but we remain challenged.

0:10:54.243,0:10:57.702
If politics is the power to imagine and use our potential,

0:10:57.702,0:11:01.846
well then 60-percent youth unemployment in Greece,

0:11:01.846,0:11:04.816
and in other countries, certainly is a lack of imagination

0:11:04.816,0:11:07.282
if not a lack of compassion.

0:11:07.282,0:11:09.823
So far, we've thrown economics at the problem,

0:11:09.823,0:11:12.134
actually mostly austerity,

0:11:12.134,0:11:15.364
and certainly we could have designed alternatives,

0:11:15.364,0:11:18.686
a different strategy, a green stimulus for green jobs,

0:11:18.686,0:11:22.138
or mutualized debt, Eurobonds which would

0:11:22.138,0:11:25.262
support countries in need from market pressures,

0:11:25.262,0:11:28.134
these would have been much more viable alternatives.

0:11:28.134,0:11:30.800
Yet I have come to believe that the problem is not so much

0:11:30.800,0:11:34.759
one of economics as it is one of democracy.

0:11:34.759,0:11:36.347
So let's try something else.

0:11:36.347,0:11:39.243
Let's see how we can bring people back to the process.

0:11:39.243,0:11:42.346
Let's throw democracy at the problem.

0:11:42.346,0:11:45.331
Again, the Ancient Greeks, with all their shortcomings,

0:11:45.331,0:11:48.375
believed in the wisdom of the crowd

0:11:48.375,0:11:51.266
at their best moments. In people we trust.

0:11:51.266,0:11:54.609
Democracy could not work without the citizens

0:11:54.609,0:11:58.982
deliberating, debating, taking on public responsibilities

0:11:58.982,0:12:00.916
for public affairs.

0:12:00.916,0:12:03.650
Average citizens often were chosen for citizen juries

0:12:03.650,0:12:07.877
to decide on critical matters of the day.

0:12:07.877,0:12:10.954
Science, theater, research, philosophy,

0:12:10.954,0:12:13.037
games of the mind and the body,

0:12:13.037,0:12:14.765
they were daily exercises.

0:12:14.765,0:12:18.917
Actually they were an education for participation,

0:12:18.917,0:12:22.457
for the potential, for growing the potential of our citizens.

0:12:22.457,0:12:26.993
And those who shunned politics, well, they were idiots.

0:12:26.993,0:12:30.237
You see, in Ancient Greece, in ancient Athens,

0:12:30.237,0:12:32.508
that term originated there.

0:12:32.508,0:12:37.301
"Idiot" comes from the root "idio," oneself.

0:12:37.301,0:12:40.544
A person who is self-centered, secluded, excluded,

0:12:40.544,0:12:45.259
someone who doesn't participate or even examine public affairs.

0:12:45.259,0:12:48.991
And participation took place in the agora, the agora having two meanings,

0:12:48.991,0:12:55.368
both a marketplace and a place where there was political deliberation.

0:12:55.368,0:12:59.424
You see, markets and politics then were one, unified,

0:12:59.424,0:13:02.630
accessible, transparent, because they gave power to the people.

0:13:02.630,0:13:07.593
They serve the demos, democracy.

0:13:07.593,0:13:10.217
Above government, above markets

0:13:10.217,0:13:12.746
was the direct rule of the people.

0:13:12.746,0:13:15.730
Today we have globalized the markets

0:13:15.730,0:13:20.193
but we have not globalized our democratic institutions.

0:13:20.193,0:13:24.626
So our politicians are limited to local politics,

0:13:24.626,0:13:28.386
while our citizens, even though they see a great potential,

0:13:28.386,0:13:32.866
are prey to forces beyond their control.

0:13:32.866,0:13:35.697
So how then do we reunite the two halves of the agora?

0:13:35.697,0:13:37.937
How do we democratize globalization?

0:13:37.937,0:13:40.506
And I'm not talking about the necessary reforms

0:13:40.506,0:13:43.160
of the United Nations or the G20.

0:13:43.160,0:13:45.641
I'm talking about, how do we secure the space,

0:13:45.641,0:13:48.142
the demos, the platform of values,

0:13:48.142,0:13:53.702
so that we can tap into all of your potential?

0:13:53.702,0:13:57.577
Well, this is exactly where I think Europe fits in.

0:13:57.577,0:13:59.977
Europe, despite its recent failures,

0:13:59.977,0:14:04.545
is the world's most successful cross-border peace experiment.

0:14:04.545,0:14:07.792
So let's see if it can't be an experiment

0:14:07.792,0:14:11.972
in global democracy, a new kind of democracy.

0:14:11.972,0:14:15.082
Let's see if we can't design a European agora,

0:14:15.082,0:14:17.614
not simply for products and services,

0:14:17.614,0:14:20.857
but for our citizens, where they can work together,

0:14:20.857,0:14:22.620
deliberate, learn from each other,

0:14:22.620,0:14:25.836
exchange between art and cultures,

0:14:25.836,0:14:29.535
where they can come up with creative solutions.

0:14:29.535,0:14:32.705
Let's imagine that European citizens

0:14:32.705,0:14:34.999
actually have the power to vote directly

0:14:34.999,0:14:37.999
for a European president,

0:14:37.999,0:14:41.483
or citizen juries chosen by lottery

0:14:41.483,0:14:45.709
which can deliberate on critical and controversial issues,

0:14:45.709,0:14:48.877
a European-wide referendum where our citizens,

0:14:48.877,0:14:53.279
as the lawmakers, vote on future treaties.

0:14:53.279,0:14:55.759
And here's an idea:

0:14:55.759,0:14:58.683
Why not have the first truly European citizens

0:14:58.683,0:15:00.703
by giving our immigrants,

0:15:00.703,0:15:04.815
not Greek or German or Swedish citizenship,

0:15:04.815,0:15:08.438
but a European citizenship?

0:15:08.438,0:15:11.325
And make sure we actually empower

0:15:11.325,0:15:14.104
the unemployed by giving them a voucher scholarship

0:15:14.104,0:15:17.573
where they can choose to study anywhere in Europe.

0:15:17.573,0:15:22.054
Where our common identity is democracy,

0:15:22.054,0:15:27.018
where our education is through participation,

0:15:27.018,0:15:30.491
and where participation builds trust

0:15:30.491,0:15:34.462
and solidarity rather than exclusion and xenophobia.

0:15:34.462,0:15:36.124
Europe of and by the people,

0:15:36.124,0:15:40.222
a Europe, an experiment in deepening and widening

0:15:40.222,0:15:43.238
democracy beyond borders.

0:15:43.238,0:15:47.076
Now, some might accuse me of being naive,

0:15:47.076,0:15:51.947
putting my faith in the power and the wisdom of the people.

0:15:51.947,0:15:56.716
Well, after decades in politics, I am also a pragmatist.

0:15:56.716,0:15:59.272
Believe me, I have been,

0:15:59.272,0:16:02.932
I am, part of today's political system,

0:16:02.932,0:16:07.569
and I know things must change.

0:16:07.569,0:16:11.857
We must revive politics as the power to imagine,

0:16:11.857,0:16:17.080
reimagine, and redesign for a better world.

0:16:17.080,0:16:19.894
But I also know that this disruptive force of change

0:16:19.894,0:16:22.958
won't be driven by the politics of today.

0:16:22.958,0:16:25.254
The revival of democratic politics

0:16:25.254,0:16:29.674
will come from you, and I mean all of you.

0:16:29.674,0:16:33.660
Everyone who participates in this global exchange of ideas,

0:16:33.660,0:16:34.709
whether it's here in this room

0:16:34.709,0:16:36.922
or just outside this room

0:16:36.922,0:16:40.756
or online or locally, where everybody lives,

0:16:40.756,0:16:44.076
everyone who stands up to injustice and inequality,

0:16:44.076,0:16:46.796
everybody who stands up to those who preach

0:16:46.796,0:16:49.060
racism rather than empathy,

0:16:49.060,0:16:51.876
dogma rather than critical thinking,

0:16:51.876,0:16:54.192
technocracy rather than democracy,

0:16:54.192,0:16:57.167
everyone who stands up to the unchecked power,

0:16:57.167,0:16:59.288
whether it's authoritarian leaders,

0:16:59.288,0:17:02.724
plutocrats hiding their assets in tax havens,

0:17:02.724,0:17:06.644
or powerful lobbies protecting the powerful few.

0:17:06.644,0:17:12.077
It is in their interest that all of us are idiots.

0:17:12.077,0:17:13.563
Let's not be.

0:17:13.563,0:17:14.803
Thank you.

0:17:14.803,0:17:26.713
(Applause)

0:17:26.713,0:17:28.626
Bruno Giussani: You seem to describe a political leadership

0:17:28.626,0:17:30.811
that is kind of unprepared

0:17:30.811,0:17:33.593
and a prisoner of the whims of the financial markets,

0:17:33.593,0:17:35.953
and that scene in Brussels that you describe, to me,

0:17:35.953,0:17:38.456
as a citizen, is terrifying.

0:17:38.456,0:17:42.755
Help us understand how you felt after the decision.

0:17:42.755,0:17:44.323
It was not a good decision, clearly,

0:17:44.323,0:17:46.907
but how do you feel after that, not as the prime minister,

0:17:46.907,0:17:49.096
but as George?

0:17:49.096,0:17:51.638
George Papandreou: Well, obviously there were constraints

0:17:51.638,0:17:55.564
which didn't allow me or others to make

0:17:55.564,0:17:57.004
the types of decisions we would have wanted,

0:17:57.004,0:17:59.769
and obviously I had hoped that we would have the time

0:17:59.769,0:18:01.476
to make the reforms which would have dealt

0:18:01.476,0:18:03.969
with the deficit rather than trying to cut the deficit

0:18:03.969,0:18:05.684
which was the symptom of the problem.

0:18:05.684,0:18:07.883
And that hurt. That hurt because that, first of all,

0:18:07.883,0:18:11.387
hurt the younger generation, and not only,

0:18:11.387,0:18:13.324
many of them are demonstrating outside,

0:18:13.324,0:18:14.948
but I think this is one of our problems.

0:18:14.948,0:18:20.180
When we face these crises, we have kept the potential,

0:18:20.180,0:18:23.315
the huge potential of our society out of this process,

0:18:23.315,0:18:26.139
and we are closing in on ourselves in politics,

0:18:26.139,0:18:28.885
and I think we need to change that, to really find

0:18:28.885,0:18:33.058
new participatory ways using the great capabilities

0:18:33.058,0:18:36.208
that now exist even in technology but not only in technology,

0:18:36.208,0:18:39.349
the minds that we have, and I think we can find solutions

0:18:39.349,0:18:41.156
which are much better, but we have to be open.

0:18:41.156,0:18:42.816
BG: You seem to suggest that the way forward

0:18:42.816,0:18:46.427
is more Europe, and that is not to be an easy discourse

0:18:46.427,0:18:48.150
right now in most European countries.

0:18:48.150,0:18:51.877
It's rather the other way -- more closed borders

0:18:51.877,0:18:54.307
and less cooperation and maybe even stepping out

0:18:54.307,0:18:58.012
of some of the different parts of the European construction.

0:18:58.012,0:18:59.951
How do you reconcile that?

0:18:59.951,0:19:02.380
GP: Well, I think one of the worst things that happened

0:19:02.380,0:19:04.612
during this crisis is that we started a blame game.

0:19:04.612,0:19:08.170
And the fundamental idea of Europe is that

0:19:08.170,0:19:10.276
we can cooperate beyond borders,

0:19:10.276,0:19:12.577
go beyond our conflicts and work together.

0:19:12.577,0:19:18.546
And the paradox is that, because we have this blame game,

0:19:18.546,0:19:21.726
we have less the potential to convince our citizens

0:19:21.726,0:19:23.437
that we should work together,

0:19:23.437,0:19:25.510
while now is the time when we really need

0:19:25.510,0:19:27.278
to bring our powers together.

0:19:27.278,0:19:30.232
Now, more Europe for me is not simply

0:19:30.232,0:19:31.687
giving more power to Brussels.

0:19:31.687,0:19:35.560
It is actually giving more power to the citizens of Europe,

0:19:35.560,0:19:39.408
that is, really making Europe a project of the people.

0:19:39.408,0:19:41.976
So that, I think, would be a way to answer

0:19:41.976,0:19:44.849
some of the fears that we have in our society.

0:19:44.849,0:19:46.372
BG: George, thank you for coming to TED.

0:19:46.372,0:19:49.558
GP: Thank you very much.BG: Thank you.(Applause)