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[Sarah Haider: Islam and
the Necessity of Liberal Critique]

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(Moderator) Hi everybody and welcome
to this next presentation entitled

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"Islam and the Necessity of Liberal Critique".

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I'd like to welcome Sarah Haider,
who is one of the co-founders

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of the Ex Muslims of North America group.

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So, please join me in welcoming Sarah.

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(Applause)

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(Sarah Haider) Hi Everyone,

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(Audience member) Hello

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I'm Sarah, and for the last two years 
I have worked to build an organization

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for non-theist ex-Muslims,

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those who once 
identified themselves with Islam.

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and now call themselves atheists, 
agnostics or deists;

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and the organization is called 
Ex-Muslims of North America.

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We are a relatively new organization, 
but we are growing quickly

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and we now have communities 
of ex-Muslims

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in over fifteen cities.

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As you can imagine, it is notoriously 
difficult for ex-Muslims

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to find others like ourselves. 
Trying to build friendships among people

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who are often under siege and deep 
in the closet is incredibly difficult.

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In the first place, how do you even find 
people who are often deliberately

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doing their best to stay undercover?

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As an organization we work to provide 
ex-Muslims with much needed support,

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support to free themselves 
from the shackles of religion

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and to be themselves, to learn about 
each other's suffering,

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and above all else, endure.

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We are in a peculiar situation, 
my colleagues and I,

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we are intimately connected with more 
godless ex-Muslims

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than likely anyone else in the world.

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I have heard thousands of stories 
from hundreds of people,

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about their experiences with Islam.

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Some lucky few were able to leave 
the faith with little consequence,

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the relationships with their families 
and friends and communities

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remained intact.

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But for most, this was not the case.

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Our journeys have seen 
tremendous struggles.

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For some the cost was only social, 
loss of friends and families.

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For others, they risked their health and 
mental well-being

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from being locked into psychiatric wards 
to enduring physical violence

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from all family members.

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Ex-Muslims, arguably 
more than any other group,

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are deeply familiar with the problems 
entrenched within Muslim communities

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and inherent within Islamic scriptures.

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As most of us happen to be both 
people of color

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and first- or second- generation 
immigrants,

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we are doubly affected,

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both by hatred and violence 
from Muslims,

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but also bigotry and xenophobia
from the broader American public.

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Despite all this, my experience 
over the last two years

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has made me wary of speaking up, 
even to an audience such as this.

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I always expected feeling unwelcome 
from Muslim audiences,

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but I did not anticipate 
an equal amount of hostility

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from my allies on the Left.

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For example, 
when I first published a piece,

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fact-checking Reza Aslan,
who is a prominent Muslim scholar,

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on his dismissal of 
female genital mutilation

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as only an African problem, 
not a Muslim one,

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I got many responses from people 
unhappy with what I wrote,

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almost all of whom 
questioned my motives

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rather than addressing my claims.

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To my surprise, most of my critics 
were not Muslims.

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Rather they identified as liberals 
and sometimes even atheists.

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Some darkly alluded to my "agenda" and 
others claimed that as a former Muslim,

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there was no way I could be trusted 
with fair criticism.

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Now remember, I published a fact-check.

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It seems to me that it would be easy 
to verify my claims,

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fact-check the fact-check, so to speak.

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But instead, Muslims and some people 
on the Left preferred instead

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to throw around suspicions 
about my character and my intentions.

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Those who oppose 
Christian authoritarianism

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will find that the broad majority 
of liberals, religious or non-religious,

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side with them 
and will ofter their support

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in the fight to push religious morals 
out of our politics and public life.

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Even religious liberals 
sometimes look upon

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the politically-charged religious right 
with distaste

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and some work with secularists 
to keep them out of our politics.

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The executive director for

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the Americans United for {Separation of} 
Church and State, for example,

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is an ordained minister.

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Atheists and secularists 
can feel secure in the knowledge

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that their allies on the liberal Left 
will stand with them

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when their target is 
the far-right Christians.

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It makes sense: liberals don't share 
much, many common values

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with the religious right.

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But when the same scrutiny 
is applied to Islam,

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you find that inexplicably some people 
on the Left begin to align instead

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with the Islamic religious right.

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The consistent exception has been 
the secular and atheist communities.

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When luminaries of disbelief movement 
like Harris and Dawkins speak about

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the horrors of Christianity and write 
books condemning it, they are cheered,

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their works lionized, their presence 
sought at events and conferences.

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But when they turn 
the same critical gaze

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towards the religion of my family,

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they are told to cease 
such offensive talk,

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to refrain from criticizing 
the same oppressive forces

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that they criticized in the past.

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There is an instinct to pigeon-hole 
anyone

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who says something negative about 
Islam, to broadly label them

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in such a way that nearly guarantees

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that most on the Left will ignore 
what they have to say.

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The first method, I found, of people dismissing my claims, has been that

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since as a brown person I can't easily 
be painted as a bigot,

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is that I must be pro-war

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or broadly support the far-right agenda 
in some way.

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This is not true.

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Sometimes I am called an Uncle Tom 
or a house Arab.

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Another term thrown around 
at ex-Muslims

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and other brown critics of Islam

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is "native informants".

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This was my first time hearing this.

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I won't go into the many reasons why 
this is an impressively disgusting thing

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to call someone, 
with the vague implication

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that we are brainwashed in some way, 
or are betraying our own kind.

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While it is somewhat understandable, 
why someone like Myriam Francois,

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who is a white convert to Islam, why she 
would refer to us as native informants,

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it is beyond my comprehension how 
such a transparently racist term

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was used by the journalist 
Max Blumenthal

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in his article condemning Ayaan Hirsi Ali

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to cast a shadow over 
her role in this debate.

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I wonder if Blumenthal 
would feel comfortable

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using similarly racist terms
against anti-clerical dissidents

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from African-American 
or other minority communities.

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Bill Maher is someone 
who has been painted

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by the Left and the Right as a bigot.

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Once on his show, Bill Maher 
mentioned the high rates of support

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for the death penalty for the crime of 
atheism in Muslim communities.

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In response, Dean Obeidallah,

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who is a comedian and author 
and liberal Muslim,

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attempted to defend the Muslim 
countries by pointing out errors

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in the statistics Maher used.

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Let me quote his piece on CNN.

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He says - "a 2013 Pew poll 
actually found

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that only 64% of Egyptians supported this"

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- by this he means the death penalty - 
"still alarmingly high, but not 90%"

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and only thirteen Muslim nations have 
penalties for apostasy, while 34 do not".

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Can we realistically imagine something 
like that being published

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if it was about any other minority, in 
an honest effort to downplay the horror?

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What if it was "only 64% of Americans

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support the death penalty 
for converts to Islam"

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- Muslims don't have it that bad -

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"only 64% of French citizens support the 
death penalty for Algerian immigrants"

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or "only 64% of Americans support 
the death penalty for homosexuality"?

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How bad is the situation, 
how terrible the human rights abuses

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and how little the worth 
of the life of a human being,

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when 64% is viewed 
as a defensive statistic?

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If the situation was that a fully 
one-third of western nations

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had legalized the murder of Muslims, 
how appalled would we be?

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What would the Left's reaction be?

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As an ex-Muslim I am horrified that 
something like this would be published

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on the web-site 
of a major news organization

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and not a single voice 
was raised in outrage.

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Why is my life worth less?

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Does my simply being raised 
in an Islamic tradition

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grant the Islamic religious right 
overt ownership over me and my body,

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grant them license to murder me 
and my fellow atheists?

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The claim actually being made 
by citing this statistic was that Maher

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was supposedly making too much of 
a fuss of atheist persecution by Muslims.

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Now I do not wish to denigrate 
the author, Dean Obeidallah,

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but to illustrate 
the depth of the problem,

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that in trying to defend what he 
perceived to be an injustice to Muslims,

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he did not even notice 
the depravity of what he wrote.

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As a consequence an audience 
on the Left now frightens me

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nearly as much as 
an audience of Islamists does.

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I have had to think long and hard about 
whether I want to give this talk today,

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to what extent I should mince my words,

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and what consequence 
it would have on my work.

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It's not my intention to cause offense 
but I firmly believe

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that there are things that need to be 
said, elephants in the room

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that no one but some bigots on the 
far right are willing to acknowledge.

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We are all, I hope, familiar with what happened

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on January 7th at the offices 
of Charlie Hebdo.

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Masked gunmen killed twelve people, 
shouting Allahu Akbar!,

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later revealed to be two brothers, 
French nationals of Algerian origin.

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There was global outrage and a large 
show of solidarity for the cartoonists,

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which appeared to be the obviously 
righteous things to do.

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Until of course the religious 
began to speak up

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with claims of "provocation" 
and hurt feelings.

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But that was to be expected, Islamists 
have been saying that for years,

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and indeed, no religion really accepts 
any form of ridicule

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- if they have a choice in the matter, that is say.

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However, what was more distressing to me,

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was the response from many 
of my allies on the Left.

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Over and over I heard the claim that 
Charlie Hebdo was somehow

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a racist publication, and while, 
of course, of course,

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murder is always wrong 
and should be condemned,

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it is nonetheless "understandable"

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that the gunmen would feel 
provoked by the cartoons.

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Now, I don't know about you, but I don't 
want to meet the man

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who "understands" why someone would 
feel compelled to murder another man

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because he didn't like a cartoon 
that he drew. (applause).

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It's important to realize that mocking 
and critique are not that different

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in the eyes of the most religious people.

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There is no fair amount 
of fair and friendly criticism

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that the very religious will accept if 
they have the power to shut it down,

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as evidenced by the prohibition 
on heretical speech

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in theocratic states throughout history.

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There is a curious 
double-standard at play.

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When Muslim clerics and activists 
that are known to be

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anti-Semites and homophobes 
are welcomed on campuses,

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touring nationally, invited to give 
lectures by Muslim student associations,

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while feminists like Asra Nomani, 
who has been fighting

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for the equality of the sexes, 
for the right of female entry

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to the priestly class, 
is branded as a bigot

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by the same Muslim student organizations

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and the authorities 
at universities like Duke

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succumb to this brazen attempt 
to silence her.

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Similar patterns are repeated 
across the Western world.

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Maryam Namazie, 
who is an ex-Muslim activist,

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was dis-invited to speak at Trinity, 
Ayaan Hirsi Ali at Brandeis.

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The British Students Union 
now allies itself broadly

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with Islamist organizations such as CAGE.

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To quote Nick Cohen from his article 
from the Guardian,

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"University managers are no better than 
their teenage heresy hunters.

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They say they want to oppose 
radical Islam in argument.

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The Lawyers' Secular Society 
took them at their word.

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It tried to present an investigation 
at the University of West London

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into Islamist groups that were 
all over campuses,

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despite their record of advocating 
Jew hatred, homophobia and misogyny.

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The university authorities 
banned the secularists."

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Let me be clear. I don't think anyone,

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even bigots emerging from Muslim 
communities or anywhere else,

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should be silenced.

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What I ask is that we stand up 
for the right to speak of all,

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including those both 
those who stand with us

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and those who call for the death 
of our fellow dis-believers.

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Our society functions because 
we believe that hurt feelings

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mean essentially nothing 
in the eyes of our justice system.

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But of course it is claimed that 
this is a special case,

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because these aren't just 
personal hurt feelings,

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these are religious hurt feelings, 
and not just any religion,

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but the religion of the underdog, 
of the brown man.

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And the Left decided long ago 
that the hurt feelings

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of the Christian religion mattered little, 
and it was imperative

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that we disabuse the notion 
that Christianity

235
00:13:32,529 --> 00:13:35,569
would ever feel safe from criticism 
or even outright mockery.

236
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Indeed many of our greatest thinkers 
have delighted in exercising this right.

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I want to quote Thomas Paine, from his 
book, The Age of Reason:

238
00:13:47,217 --> 00:13:50,371
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, 
the voluptuous debaucheries,

239
00:13:50,371 --> 00:13:54,871
the cruel and torturous executions, 
the unrelenting vindictiveness,

240
00:13:54,871 --> 00:13:57,025
with which more than half 
the Bible is filled,

241
00:13:57,025 --> 00:13:59,878
it would be more consistent that 
we called it the word of a demon,

242
00:13:59,878 --> 00:14:01,308
than the word of God.

243
00:14:01,308 --> 00:14:05,795
It is a history of wickedness, that has 
served to corrupt and brutalize mankind;

244
00:14:05,795 --> 00:14:11,210
and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, 
as I detest everything that is cruel"

245
00:14:12,775 --> 00:14:17,338
I wonder if Paine had been murdered 
for his outright contempt of Christianity,

246
00:14:17,338 --> 00:14:20,386
how different would the West look today?

247
00:14:21,006 --> 00:14:24,135
what message such a gruesome deed 
would have sent?

248
00:14:24,135 --> 00:14:26,420
how many people would it have silenced

249
00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:28,412
with its promise of 
more bloodshed to come

250
00:14:28,412 --> 00:14:31,289
if they had the audacity 
to repeat his crime?

251
00:14:32,277 --> 00:14:37,144
Would that fear have silenced those who 
insisted on the freedom of speech?

252
00:14:37,618 --> 00:14:40,492
How would that have affected 
the face of our nation?

253
00:14:40,492 --> 00:14:44,279
Now I hope that you will reflect with me, 
on the fact that

254
00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:46,447
not only was he not murdered,

255
00:14:46,447 --> 00:14:49,470
neither were his contemporaries 
who mocked religion,

256
00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:54,281
also even then three centuries ago,
I don't believe he contemplated the idea

257
00:14:54,281 --> 00:14:56,441
that writing would actually 
lead to his death.

258
00:14:56,935 --> 00:14:59,046
And yet, in the twenty-first century,

259
00:14:59,046 --> 00:15:02,566
this is the reality of those who speak out
against Islam in Muslim countries

260
00:15:02,566 --> 00:15:04,703
and increasingly in Western ones.

261
00:15:05,962 --> 00:15:09,228
It is not uncommon to hear from 
commentators in various media outlets

262
00:15:09,228 --> 00:15:12,746
that the victims of Charlie Hebdo had 
somehow provoked others

263
00:15:12,746 --> 00:15:16,117
with their offensive cartoons 
into taking their lives.

264
00:15:16,689 --> 00:15:22,051
The sentiment seems to be that 
the cartoonists must to some degree

265
00:15:22,051 --> 00:15:24,681
be held accountable for their own murders,

266
00:15:24,681 --> 00:15:28,007
even as dozens of cartoonists 
from the East drew panels

267
00:15:28,007 --> 00:15:30,717
in support of their counterparts 
in the West,

268
00:15:30,717 --> 00:15:32,966
risking their own lives 
for freedom of speech.

269
00:15:35,095 --> 00:15:38,458
Two months ago, PEN, an organization 
that has stood for free speech

270
00:15:38,458 --> 00:15:42,620
for nearly a century, announced their 
decision to honor

271
00:15:42,620 --> 00:15:44,066
the magazine Charlie Hebdo

272
00:15:44,066 --> 00:15:46,449
with the PEN 
Freedom of Expression Courage Award.

273
00:15:46,908 --> 00:15:49,980
Yet amongst those that were 
members of PEN,

274
00:15:49,980 --> 00:15:52,494
there were some that refused to stand 
with Charlie Hebdo,

275
00:15:52,494 --> 00:15:56,383
initially six table heads 
and as of now, 204 writers.

276
00:15:57,533 --> 00:16:00,441
I would like to remind everyone 
that we've been here before.

277
00:16:00,952 --> 00:16:04,040
When Salman Rushdie had a fatwa 
calling for his death,

278
00:16:04,411 --> 00:16:08,806
PEN America under Susan Sontag's 
stewardship stood for him,

279
00:16:08,806 --> 00:16:13,291
even while a significant percentage 
of the intelligentsia cast him aside.

280
00:16:13,487 --> 00:16:16,602
Figures as diverse as 
the Archbishop of Canterbury

281
00:16:16,602 --> 00:16:19,249
to multiple members 
of the British Parliament,

282
00:16:19,249 --> 00:16:25,144
one of whom condemned Rushdie as, 
quote, an outstanding villain,

283
00:16:25,144 --> 00:16:29,833
whose, quote, public life has been 
a record of despicable acts of betrayal

284
00:16:29,833 --> 00:16:33,702
of his upbringing, religion, 
adopted home and nationality.

285
00:16:34,606 --> 00:16:37,226
As there were eastern cartoonists 
standing with Charlie Hebdo,

286
00:16:37,226 --> 00:16:40,464
there were Irani writers from the Muslim 
world that stood in defiance

287
00:16:40,464 --> 00:16:44,108
and defended Rushdie, some of whom 
were subsequently attacked.

288
00:16:44,917 --> 00:16:48,432
In light of the recent attack 
in Garland, Texas,

289
00:16:48,432 --> 00:16:51,375
I'd like to share the prophetic words 
of Norman Mailer,

290
00:16:51,375 --> 00:16:53,501
from over two decades ago:

291
00:16:53,501 --> 00:16:56,732
"In this week of turmoil we can now 
envision a fearful time in the future

292
00:16:56,732 --> 00:16:59,046
when fundamentalist groups in America,

293
00:16:59,046 --> 00:17:02,521
stealing their page 
from this international episode

294
00:17:02,521 --> 00:17:05,366
will know how to apply the same methods

295
00:17:05,366 --> 00:17:07,618
to American writers and bookstores.

296
00:17:07,618 --> 00:17:10,796
If they succeed it will be due to the fact 
that we never found

297
00:17:10,796 --> 00:17:14,839
an honest resistance to the terrorization 
of Salman Rushdie."

298
00:17:16,369 --> 00:17:20,857
Where in 1989 and 2005 authors 
and cartoonists considered

299
00:17:20,857 --> 00:17:22,876
a vague possibility of retaliation,

300
00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:25,876
it has now metastatized 
to an ever present threat;

301
00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:29,774
like clockwork the violence 
intensifies and repeats.

302
00:17:30,509 --> 00:17:33,188
The cowardly response 
in the intervening decade

303
00:17:33,188 --> 00:17:37,852
has also been repeated time and time 
again, everytime emboldening the voices

304
00:17:37,852 --> 00:17:40,129
calling for the curtailment of free speech.

305
00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:44,466
The Rushdie fatwa was the first battle, 
a battle in which we surrendered,

306
00:17:44,466 --> 00:17:47,802
and continue to pay the price 
for that appeasement today.

307
00:17:49,242 --> 00:17:54,177
So why is it so difficult for many 
on the Left to criticize Islam?

308
00:17:54,182 --> 00:17:55,768
Why do they shy away from it?

309
00:17:56,236 --> 00:18:00,527
I believe that the primary reason is that 
many are simply incapable of separating

310
00:18:00,527 --> 00:18:03,644
the criticism of an idea with the hate 
directed towards a people,

311
00:18:03,644 --> 00:18:05,860
and immediately call the first "racism".

312
00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:09,596
That idea should not 
be entertained for very long,

313
00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:12,823
as if there can be no valid reasons 
to critique an ideology

314
00:18:12,823 --> 00:18:15,495
rooted in seventh-century 
patriarchal norms

315
00:18:15,495 --> 00:18:20,137
except for hatred toward the very people 
imprisoned by those ideologies.

316
00:18:21,609 --> 00:18:24,604
There are people who use the phrase "Islamophobia"

317
00:18:24,604 --> 00:18:28,496
both to mean criticism of the people 
and of the religion.

318
00:18:28,972 --> 00:18:30,545
I know that many Muslims do this,

319
00:18:30,545 --> 00:18:33,255
it is an easy way of stopping others 
from criticizing their religion,

320
00:18:33,255 --> 00:18:36,558
but I believe that many in the West 
use this word

321
00:18:36,558 --> 00:18:39,194
because they haven't quite thought 
of why it might be harmful.

322
00:18:39,487 --> 00:18:41,788
Islamophobia is a meaningless term.

323
00:18:41,788 --> 00:18:46,801
It serves to confuse and to muddle two 
very different forms of intolerance,

324
00:18:46,801 --> 00:18:48,666
based on two very different reasons,

325
00:18:48,666 --> 00:18:51,766
towards which there should be 
two very different reactions.

326
00:18:52,532 --> 00:18:54,919
Sometimes it is claimed 
that the critique of religion

327
00:18:54,919 --> 00:18:57,513
is critique of the identity 
of the believer,

328
00:18:57,513 --> 00:18:58,732
and is therefore bigotry.

329
00:18:59,339 --> 00:19:02,710
This person's identity happens 
to be based on ideology,

330
00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:04,753
so if you criticize their ideology,

331
00:19:04,753 --> 00:19:07,811
you are necessarily generating 
hate towards that person.

332
00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:10,066
But I wonder what would happen

333
00:19:10,066 --> 00:19:12,273
if we applied this type of thinking 
to everything?

334
00:19:12,726 --> 00:19:16,537
What if New Agers decided that criticism 
of New Age spiritual healing

335
00:19:16,537 --> 00:19:20,050
was a form of hate against people 
who chose to identify that way?

336
00:19:20,050 --> 00:19:23,037
What if Hindus decided 
criticism of the caste system

337
00:19:23,037 --> 00:19:26,824
was a deeply offensive form of racism 
against Hindu people?

338
00:19:27,243 --> 00:19:29,677
How much of that would retard reform?

339
00:19:31,143 --> 00:19:32,571
There is another version 
of this argument

340
00:19:32,571 --> 00:19:35,236
which claims that criticism 
or ridicule of Islam

341
00:19:35,236 --> 00:19:38,524
feeds into the bigotry 
by the far-right

342
00:19:38,524 --> 00:19:40,335
and therefore causes harm,

343
00:19:41,122 --> 00:19:43,810
and I want everyone to know that 
the argument is almost never

344
00:19:43,810 --> 00:19:47,391
that Islam doesn't deserve the critique 
or ridicule as a religion,

345
00:19:47,391 --> 00:19:52,400
but that it is harmful to voice this 
for the damage it would do.

346
00:19:53,143 --> 00:19:56,913
Now one of the writers that opposed the 
award for Charlie Hebdo claimed that,

347
00:19:56,913 --> 00:20:00,657
quote, the narrative 
of the Charlie Hebdo murders

348
00:20:00,660 --> 00:20:03,804
-- the narrative of the 
Charlie Hebdo murders --

349
00:20:03,804 --> 00:20:07,497
white Europeans killed in their offices 
by Muslim extremists

350
00:20:07,497 --> 00:20:10,644
is one that feeds neatly 
into the cultural prejudices

351
00:20:10,644 --> 00:20:12,135
that have allowed our governments

352
00:20:12,135 --> 00:20:15,177
to make so many disastrous 
mistakes in the Middle East

353
00:20:16,317 --> 00:20:19,287
-- the narrative of the Charlie Hebdo murders!

354
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,298
I read that statement and I realized that 
for some writers

355
00:20:22,298 --> 00:20:25,502
the problem wasn't just 
that the cartoons were offensive,

356
00:20:25,502 --> 00:20:30,071
it was that the reaction of Muslims 
to the cartoons fed into

357
00:20:30,071 --> 00:20:31,863
a stereotypical Muslim trope,

358
00:20:31,863 --> 00:20:35,185
a reaction that was very 
inconvenient for a group

359
00:20:35,185 --> 00:20:38,105
trying their best to paint 
a picture of a peaceful Islam,

360
00:20:38,383 --> 00:20:40,510
despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

361
00:20:41,517 --> 00:20:44,952
It is quite clear that allegiances here 
aren't to the truth,

362
00:20:45,432 --> 00:20:49,660
instead the aim is to selectively hide 
inconvenient truths,

363
00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:52,856
truths that are deemed to be harmful, 
should they ever be acknowledged.

364
00:20:53,828 --> 00:20:58,599
I assume the fear is that we do not want
to give support to actual bigoted people.

365
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:02,497
Anyone who watches Fox knows 
how they use fear-mongering tactics

366
00:21:02,497 --> 00:21:04,066
to promote xenophobia.

367
00:21:05,136 --> 00:21:08,853
But the liberation of a billion and a half
Muslims in the world,

368
00:21:08,853 --> 00:21:10,830
Muslims who are suffering 
under the yoke

369
00:21:10,830 --> 00:21:13,801
of an ever-present theological authority,

370
00:21:13,801 --> 00:21:15,907
should be at the forefront of our minds.

371
00:21:16,453 --> 00:21:19,673
As has been repeated hundreds of times 
by critics like myself,

372
00:21:19,673 --> 00:21:23,447
the primary victims of Islamism 
are Muslims,

373
00:21:23,447 --> 00:21:26,886
be it in terms of terrorism, violence, 
misogyny,

374
00:21:26,886 --> 00:21:31,306
freedom of expression and religion, 
and economic decline.

375
00:21:31,306 --> 00:21:35,566
Yet bizarrely, to some, these concerns 
are secondary still

376
00:21:35,566 --> 00:21:37,437
to not presenting offense.

377
00:21:38,926 --> 00:21:41,523
Still there are others who believe that 
those in the West,

378
00:21:41,523 --> 00:21:44,424
that people in the West have 
no right to speak about

379
00:21:44,424 --> 00:21:46,105
problems of "brown cultures"

380
00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:49,279
due to the legacy of colonialism 
and other forms of violence

381
00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:51,070
the West has cast upon the East.

382
00:21:51,795 --> 00:21:55,732
This is a strange argument because 
it ignores the history of the world,

383
00:21:55,732 --> 00:22:00,367
a history in which various nations, Muslims and non-Muslims,

384
00:22:00,367 --> 00:22:03,686
have succumbed to the ebb-and-flow 
of conquest, repeatedly,

385
00:22:03,686 --> 00:22:05,114
for all of recorded history.

386
00:22:06,022 --> 00:22:10,073
Many Islamic countries in fact had 
horrific laws before colonialism.

387
00:22:10,607 --> 00:22:13,975
Two of the epicenters of Islamic thought, 
Iran for Shia Islam,

388
00:22:13,975 --> 00:22:18,712
and Saudi Arabia for Sunni Islam, 
resisted colonialism.

389
00:22:20,712 --> 00:22:21,742
-- Excuse me --

390
00:22:22,332 --> 00:22:25,621
In fact, Saudi Arabia 
was founded in 1744

391
00:22:25,621 --> 00:22:27,004
as an extremist state,

392
00:22:27,004 --> 00:22:30,156
the first iteration of which was 
destroyed by the Ottomans,

393
00:22:30,156 --> 00:22:32,344
due to their religious fanaticism.

394
00:22:32,782 --> 00:22:35,652
The first Saudis in fact attacked 
and desecrated

395
00:22:35,652 --> 00:22:38,711
some of the most holy Muslim sites 
and were stopped

396
00:22:38,711 --> 00:22:41,274
not by intervention of the West 
but by other Muslims

397
00:22:41,274 --> 00:22:43,269
that viewed them as dangerous fanatics.

398
00:22:43,658 --> 00:22:46,254
There was then no 
American imperialism,

399
00:22:46,254 --> 00:22:48,204
no frame of wars against other Muslims,

400
00:22:48,204 --> 00:22:51,240
and yet, fundamentalist Wahabbis 
existed,

401
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,104
and were attacking other Muslims,

402
00:22:53,104 --> 00:22:56,193
very much the same way 
that ISIS attacks them today.

403
00:22:56,805 --> 00:22:58,721
Reform is impossible

404
00:22:58,721 --> 00:23:01,578
when you constantly shift 
the conversation away

405
00:23:01,578 --> 00:23:05,959
from Islamic fundamentalism, and back 
to western violence and imperialism.

406
00:23:07,077 --> 00:23:09,657
But don't get me wrong. 
It is important to discuss this,

407
00:23:09,657 --> 00:23:12,729
it is important to discuss imperialism 
and the harm that it caused.

408
00:23:12,729 --> 00:23:16,298
But violence in the name of Islam 
has terrorized the Middle East

409
00:23:16,298 --> 00:23:18,666
ever since its inception, 
and it is important

410
00:23:18,666 --> 00:23:20,496
that we don't derail this conversation.

411
00:23:20,798 --> 00:23:26,545
The moral paralysis out of fear of the 
right, out of fear of furthering bigotry,

412
00:23:26,983 --> 00:23:30,658
out of shame of prior crimes committed 
by other white people

413
00:23:30,658 --> 00:23:34,014
should not trump all considerations.

414
00:23:34,752 --> 00:23:37,143
When I read articles of why Muslims 
should not be ridiculed

415
00:23:37,143 --> 00:23:42,546
I get a sense of condescension, a sense 
that there are those who believe

416
00:23:42,546 --> 00:23:46,071
that the most essential trait of 
brown people is their religion,

417
00:23:46,071 --> 00:23:48,899
a defining feature in fact, 
and due to this

418
00:23:48,899 --> 00:23:51,897
they presume that we won't reform 
or we can't,

419
00:23:52,229 --> 00:23:55,448
that religion is something 
inherent to who we are

420
00:23:55,448 --> 00:23:57,693
and that it won't respond 
to pressure, to change

421
00:23:57,693 --> 00:24:00,734
the way Christianity responded 
to pressure by secularists.

422
00:24:01,274 --> 00:24:04,625
While they believe themselves 
to be supporting tolerance,

423
00:24:04,625 --> 00:24:08,336
what they are really supporting is 
the religious right of the East,

424
00:24:08,636 --> 00:24:12,055
and not just any religious right, not the 
religious right that we have here,

425
00:24:12,342 --> 00:24:14,860
it's a religious right the West 
hasn't seen for centuries.

426
00:24:15,229 --> 00:24:20,508
To me, someone who opposes the most 
foundational liberal principle,

427
00:24:20,508 --> 00:24:21,965
the freedom of expression,

428
00:24:21,965 --> 00:24:26,255
in order to protect the sensibilities 
of this Islamist religious right

429
00:24:26,255 --> 00:24:27,948
is a liberal only in name.

430
00:24:28,568 --> 00:24:32,929
In fact, what kind of person holds two 
different groups of people accountable

431
00:24:32,929 --> 00:24:36,411
to two different standards of 
acceptable behavior but a bigot?

432
00:24:37,144 --> 00:24:39,383
Islam, like all patriarchal religions,

433
00:24:39,383 --> 00:24:43,178
is a tool used to justify abuse 
of women and minorities.

434
00:24:43,559 --> 00:24:46,721
Does our concept of tolerance extend 
towards tolerance

435
00:24:46,721 --> 00:24:49,728
of systematic subjugation 
of women and minorities?

436
00:24:50,430 --> 00:24:53,781
What else can excusing abuse made 
in the name of tolerance be called

437
00:24:53,781 --> 00:24:57,371
other than a benevolent, 
self-serving form of bigotry?

438
00:24:59,052 --> 00:25:01,565
No matter how seemingly 
compassionate the motivations,

439
00:25:01,565 --> 00:25:04,101
we must not hesitate in being honest

440
00:25:04,101 --> 00:25:08,449
in calling out our allies for their 
hypocrisy and their illiberal mores.

441
00:25:10,013 --> 00:25:13,725
Sometimes I feel as if people 
view secularism and free-thinking

442
00:25:13,725 --> 00:25:17,669
to be concepts owned by the West, 
something inherently Western.

443
00:25:18,401 --> 00:25:21,468
To push secularism and free thought 
to Muslims then

444
00:25:21,468 --> 00:25:23,830
is to push a Western identity onto them.

445
00:25:24,524 --> 00:25:26,601
It is no more than ignorance of history

446
00:25:26,601 --> 00:25:30,767
to feel that Enlightenment ideals can 
only be shared by this civilization,

447
00:25:30,767 --> 00:25:33,636
rather than a progression 
of all of humanity.

448
00:25:34,151 --> 00:25:35,448
Indeed throughout history

449
00:25:35,448 --> 00:25:38,141
there have been champions 
of these very same ideals,

450
00:25:38,141 --> 00:25:41,302
there have been free-thinkers 
in every culture in the world

451
00:25:41,302 --> 00:25:42,812
that have bled for these ideals.

452
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,192
There have been countless free-thinkers 
that challenged faith,

453
00:25:46,192 --> 00:25:51,775
that tried but sadly failed to interpret 
scripture in a less misogynist way,

454
00:25:51,775 --> 00:25:54,186
even in patriarchal Islamic societies.

455
00:25:54,824 --> 00:25:57,111
For example, 
the seventeenth century had

456
00:25:57,111 --> 00:26:00,140
a crown prince of the Mughal dynasty, 
Dara Shikoh,

457
00:26:00,140 --> 00:26:04,969
who was committed to rights of all 
religions, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim alike,

458
00:26:04,969 --> 00:26:09,004
working to bridge the gaps between 
the leading lights of all faiths.

459
00:26:09,728 --> 00:26:12,270
As you may anticipate, 
this was not to last,

460
00:26:12,270 --> 00:26:14,192
Dara was murdered by his own brother,

461
00:26:14,192 --> 00:26:19,330
claiming that Dara's tolerance 
was a sign of his apostasy,

462
00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:23,850
a brother that is now revered in Muslim 
circles as being a guardian of the faith.

463
00:26:24,577 --> 00:26:26,149
Similarly, there have been women

464
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:27,786
that have led the charge 
for their own rights.

465
00:26:28,395 --> 00:26:32,197
Exactly two hundred years ago, 
Fatima Baraghani was born in Iran,

466
00:26:32,544 --> 00:26:37,089
an extremely intelligent woman, who as 
per custom was married young,

467
00:26:37,089 --> 00:26:39,678
and wasn't allowed to further 
pursue her education.

468
00:26:40,769 --> 00:26:44,310
She was attracted to a radical movement 
brewing in the country,

469
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:46,738
which espoused equality of the genders.

470
00:26:47,061 --> 00:26:51,541
She joined and rose to be one 
of the leading lights of that movement.

471
00:26:52,715 --> 00:26:55,753
To symbolize a break from Shariah, 
at one gathering,

472
00:26:55,753 --> 00:26:59,479
she took off her traditional veil 
in front of an assemblage of men

473
00:26:59,479 --> 00:27:01,662
and brandished instead a sword.

474
00:27:02,882 --> 00:27:06,153
Now this sight caused such a shock 
among the crowd,

475
00:27:06,153 --> 00:27:09,467
that many grown men screamed aloud.

476
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,866
One man cut his own throat in horror,

477
00:27:12,866 --> 00:27:16,833
fleeing the scene as blood poured 
from his neck. {Laughter}

478
00:27:19,043 --> 00:27:22,444
But she did not enjoy freedom or live 
long after this incident.

479
00:27:24,222 --> 00:27:28,271
The tragedy of the Eastern past isn't 
that we haven't given birth to reformers

480
00:27:28,271 --> 00:27:32,417
but that the violence of our oppressors 
has eliminated us, time and again.

481
00:27:32,990 --> 00:27:35,775
Even in modern times, 
one Somali author,

482
00:27:35,775 --> 00:27:39,828
Abdisaid Abdi Ismail, wrote a book
where he audaciously argued

483
00:27:39,828 --> 00:27:44,449
that Islam doesn't actually call 
for a death penalty for apostasy.

484
00:27:44,449 --> 00:27:47,535
He was rewarded for his efforts by 
having his life threatened,

485
00:27:47,535 --> 00:27:49,569
and calls for his book to be burned.

486
00:27:50,767 --> 00:27:52,773
A British reformist, Maajid Nawaz,

487
00:27:52,773 --> 00:27:56,007
has had fatwas issued 
calling for his death

488
00:27:56,007 --> 00:27:58,576
for simply saying on a tweet

489
00:27:58,576 --> 00:28:01,452
that a cartoon of Muhammad 
doesn't personally offend him.

490
00:28:02,077 --> 00:28:05,377
The religious right has been murdering 
reformers for centuries,

491
00:28:05,377 --> 00:28:07,922
but we are still here, 
fighting for our future,

492
00:28:07,922 --> 00:28:11,406
the same fight that the West has had 
much greater success in.

493
00:28:11,966 --> 00:28:16,165
It is strange that the very same people, 
who wish to tamp down on the power

494
00:28:16,165 --> 00:28:20,758
of the Christian right and use 
the advances that the West has had,

495
00:28:20,758 --> 00:28:23,961
to insist that we must be defined 
by our religious right.

496
00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:26,376
Let us assume, for the sake of argument,

497
00:28:26,376 --> 00:28:30,480
that we can all concede the idea that 
Islam, as a religion, needs reform,

498
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,139
or at the very least, Muslim communities 
do, both in the West and abroad,

499
00:28:34,139 --> 00:28:36,989
and in the way that they choose 
to practice their faith.

500
00:28:37,434 --> 00:28:40,856
I happen to believe this. 
All the data we have corroborates this.

501
00:28:41,605 --> 00:28:43,022
There's a large amount of evidence

502
00:28:43,024 --> 00:28:46,061
which clearly demonstrates 
rampant misogyny,

503
00:28:46,061 --> 00:28:49,685
bad attitudes towards homosexuals 
and apostasy within the Muslim world,

504
00:28:49,685 --> 00:28:52,657
supported by the law and widely 
accepted by the people.

505
00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:58,301
In an effort to draw attention away 
from the role of religion in all this,

506
00:28:58,301 --> 00:29:04,349
some have chosen to instead use 
excuses by a variety of reasons,

507
00:29:04,349 --> 00:29:05,811
none of which make sense,

508
00:29:05,811 --> 00:29:09,083
because Muslim countries share 
almost nothing between them all,

509
00:29:09,083 --> 00:29:10,851
except the predominant religion:

510
00:29:11,159 --> 00:29:15,888
not socio-economic status, 
not education or literacy levels, not GDP,

511
00:29:15,888 --> 00:29:20,424
not cultural background or history, 
not race or ethnicity, not language,

512
00:29:20,424 --> 00:29:23,799
not political system, 
not the history of Western colonization.

513
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:26,160
What they do share is theology.

514
00:29:27,271 --> 00:29:31,164
Obviously Islam isn't the root of 
all evil, but it is an important factor.

515
00:29:31,550 --> 00:29:34,252
What we have here is a right wing 
in the West who believes

516
00:29:34,252 --> 00:29:36,050
that Islam personifies evil

517
00:29:36,050 --> 00:29:40,189
and a Left which refuses to even 
look into it as a source of harm.

518
00:29:41,051 --> 00:29:44,248
The question then becomes, 
how do we achieve reform

519
00:29:44,248 --> 00:29:47,354
without actually mentioning 
any problems in Islam?

520
00:29:47,739 --> 00:29:50,092
How do we achieve progress 
while shying away

521
00:29:50,092 --> 00:29:54,701
from one of the foundational aspects 
of how harmful practices are justified?

522
00:29:55,708 --> 00:29:58,794
Most cultures are responsive 
to selective pressure,

523
00:29:58,794 --> 00:30:01,203
and by insisting that no pressure 
be applied,

524
00:30:01,203 --> 00:30:03,616
we are acting as a brake on any progress.

525
00:30:04,253 --> 00:30:06,899
We have plenty of evidence 
that a push for secularism

526
00:30:06,899 --> 00:30:10,841
or a presence within secular cultures 
can change behavior,

527
00:30:10,841 --> 00:30:12,597
and even the beliefs of Muslims.

528
00:30:13,558 --> 00:30:16,508
For example, if you compare 
Muslims living in the US

529
00:30:16,508 --> 00:30:20,556
with Muslims in the Middle East, 
you will find across all metrics,

530
00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:25,095
that their opinions are less extreme
and more in line with liberal values,

531
00:30:25,095 --> 00:30:28,000
than those of the population 
of their origin countries.

532
00:30:29,003 --> 00:30:32,242
Many Muslims believe that 
their religion is immutable,

533
00:30:32,242 --> 00:30:36,421
that every word of which is true, 
and reformers insult them

534
00:30:36,421 --> 00:30:37,908
when they demand change.

535
00:30:38,218 --> 00:30:41,420
Yet profound changes in the way 
Muslims practice their religion

536
00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:43,085
have occurred in the past.

537
00:30:43,555 --> 00:30:47,298
Many Muslim countries practiced 
slavery up until the twentieth century,

538
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:51,785
with some countries abolishing slavery 
as recently as 1981,

539
00:30:52,046 --> 00:30:55,385
citing religious sanction of the practice 
as a justification.

540
00:30:55,964 --> 00:31:00,687
Saudi Arabia's slave population 
was estimated at 300,000

541
00:31:00,687 --> 00:31:03,625
a scant 50 years ago,

542
00:31:03,625 --> 00:31:06,666
and it was international pressure 
that forced abolition.

543
00:31:08,132 --> 00:31:11,342
Under pressure from the 
British Empire to abolish slavery

544
00:31:11,342 --> 00:31:12,504
a little over a century ago,

545
00:31:12,504 --> 00:31:16,234
the Sultan of Morocco cited 
the inerrancy of the Quran

546
00:31:16,234 --> 00:31:18,586
to make the case for the divine 
sanction of slavery.

547
00:31:19,372 --> 00:31:22,058
Later the chief minister of Morocco, 
Muhammad Idris,

548
00:31:22,058 --> 00:31:25,205
wrote in response to anti-slavery 
efforts, that

549
00:31:25,205 --> 00:31:28,879
"we do not interfere in religious 
principles which you profess,

550
00:31:28,879 --> 00:31:31,564
likewise you should not interfere 
in our religion".

551
00:31:32,357 --> 00:31:36,038
In the face of Ottoman unwillingness 
to condemn the status of slaves

552
00:31:36,038 --> 00:31:41,805
as enshrined in Shariah, 
a British statesman sarcastically stated,

553
00:31:41,805 --> 00:31:44,769
that one might well ask the Sultan 
to become a Christian.

554
00:31:45,868 --> 00:31:50,706
Yet today, most if not all Muslims 
are repulsed by the idea of slaves.

555
00:31:51,782 --> 00:31:55,611
Did they abandon the Quran which 
seemed to clearly condone slavery

556
00:31:55,611 --> 00:31:57,145
a mere century ago?

557
00:31:57,145 --> 00:31:59,589
Or were we able to shift 
mainstream consensus

558
00:31:59,589 --> 00:32:01,768
by standing up for our moral principles?

559
00:32:02,163 --> 00:32:03,687
I wonder what would have happened

560
00:32:03,687 --> 00:32:07,317
if the benevolent bigots of the West, 
of the Left today,

561
00:32:07,317 --> 00:32:10,154
who feel that it is more important 
to respect a culture

562
00:32:10,154 --> 00:32:13,595
for the sake of respecting a culture 
had existed back then.

563
00:32:14,234 --> 00:32:16,483
How many millions would be 
living in chains today?

564
00:32:17,805 --> 00:32:21,689
There is another common narrative, 
of the West as oppressors,

565
00:32:21,689 --> 00:32:24,928
how racism here feeds 
into the oppression of a minority.

566
00:32:24,928 --> 00:32:28,258
Champions of Islam have gone 
on record using it as a cudgel

567
00:32:28,258 --> 00:32:31,626
to beat against the back of progress.

568
00:32:32,225 --> 00:32:35,812
We need to be aware that 
the victim versus the oppressor dynamic

569
00:32:35,812 --> 00:32:38,737
isn't set in stone the way some people 
would have you believe.

570
00:32:39,227 --> 00:32:42,856
One can be a victim in one context 
and an oppressor in another.

571
00:32:43,506 --> 00:32:46,939
A Muslim man may deal with racism 
at work, real racism,

572
00:32:46,939 --> 00:32:51,641
may see career setbacks, 
and goes home and beats his hijabi wife

573
00:32:51,641 --> 00:32:54,283
because he was raised 
in a misogynistic tradition,

574
00:32:54,283 --> 00:32:57,420
using Quran's verse as justification.

575
00:32:58,107 --> 00:32:59,823
Should we not criticize his behavior

576
00:32:59,823 --> 00:33:02,046
because of his victimization 
in one aspect?

577
00:33:03,285 --> 00:33:07,999
An imam may be an anti-Semite, 
a homophobe, he may be indoctrinating

578
00:33:07,999 --> 00:33:11,024
a generation of impressionable minds 
into his harmful ideas.

579
00:33:11,527 --> 00:33:14,729
Yet the same imam might also 
be a victim of bigotry

580
00:33:14,729 --> 00:33:16,685
when he aims to launch a new mosque.

581
00:33:16,685 --> 00:33:20,765
He may be the target of 
local xenophobic attitudes.

582
00:33:21,885 --> 00:33:23,928
In lieu of his sufferings, 
should we pretend

583
00:33:23,928 --> 00:33:27,926
his other despicable behaviors 
do not exist, or do not matter?

584
00:33:28,746 --> 00:33:30,879
Are we to sacrifice one for the other?

585
00:33:31,346 --> 00:33:34,023
Instead, can we not stand 
against all oppressions,

586
00:33:34,023 --> 00:33:37,650
stand for the equal rights of others, 
while simultaneously working

587
00:33:37,650 --> 00:33:40,099
against bigoted narratives 
within religion?

588
00:33:40,986 --> 00:33:42,609
One of my Ex-Muslim colleagues,
Hiba Krisht,

589
00:33:42,609 --> 00:33:45,225
beautifully summed up 
the same sentiments,

590
00:33:45,225 --> 00:33:50,087
when she was talking about 
the misogynistic nature of the hijab,

591
00:33:51,118 --> 00:33:55,321
quote, feminism is defending 
women, Muslim women,

592
00:33:55,321 --> 00:33:59,347
who wear the hijab for whatever reason,
against shaming or attack.

593
00:33:59,857 --> 00:34:05,770
Feminism is not categorically 
denying that the hijab can be coercive,

594
00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:10,120
body-shaming, slut-shaming, restrictive 
or psychologically crippling.

595
00:34:11,447 --> 00:34:14,462
We cannot avoid reality 
because we are afraid

596
00:34:14,462 --> 00:34:17,024
of the consequences 
of acknowledging facts.

597
00:34:17,024 --> 00:34:21,656
Is it ethical to avoid educating our 
children about Darwinian evolution

598
00:34:21,656 --> 00:34:24,835
simply because it has fed 
into Social Darwinism in the past?

599
00:34:25,632 --> 00:34:28,963
Our silence about uncomfortable truths 
simply underscores

600
00:34:28,963 --> 00:34:33,176
the cost of our inaction as 
the consequences loom ever larger.

601
00:34:33,694 --> 00:34:37,070
We are paralyzed by our own 
insecurities, by our fear

602
00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:40,812
that the truth will empower 
the worst of us, rather than set us free.

603
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,653
We have those on the Islamic far right

604
00:34:44,653 --> 00:34:47,419
who say that there is no room 
for reform in Islam,

605
00:34:47,419 --> 00:34:49,937
because Islam is, 
and always has been perfect.

606
00:34:49,937 --> 00:34:53,290
We have their counterparts 
from the far right in the West,

607
00:34:53,290 --> 00:34:56,366
who coincidentally also view Islam 
as beyond reform,

608
00:34:56,366 --> 00:34:57,659
but for different reasons,

609
00:34:57,659 --> 00:35:00,440
as something that is irredeemably 
and permanently evil.

610
00:35:00,899 --> 00:35:03,997
Between those two extremes, 
we have the average Muslim,

611
00:35:03,997 --> 00:35:07,614
who is forced to choose 
between the devil he knows,

612
00:35:07,614 --> 00:35:11,786
Islamic dominance and supremacy, over 
the devil he doesn't, Western bigotry.

613
00:35:12,312 --> 00:35:14,999
The liberal Left needs to present 
a different path,

614
00:35:14,999 --> 00:35:17,569
not acquiesce to either form 
of religious dominance.

615
00:35:17,569 --> 00:35:20,849
It is particularly important that those 
who stand for compassion,

616
00:35:20,849 --> 00:35:22,418
that those who stand for human rights

617
00:35:22,418 --> 00:35:25,669
and who recognize the harmful effects 
of bigotry and discrimination

618
00:35:25,669 --> 00:35:29,990
lead the charge against religious 
oppression no matter where it stems.

619
00:35:30,860 --> 00:35:33,638
We know, not only is reform is possible,

620
00:35:33,638 --> 00:35:36,344
but it is ongoing against 
insurmountable odds,

621
00:35:36,344 --> 00:35:38,906
it has champions that are 
laying their lives on the line

622
00:35:38,906 --> 00:35:39,987
for a better tomorrow.

623
00:35:39,987 --> 00:35:43,490
We cannot and must not 
let the current situation endure

624
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:46,386
where reformists of Islam are standing 
alone and vulnerable.

625
00:35:48,090 --> 00:35:51,386
We must remember that there is 
no inevitable march of progress,

626
00:35:51,386 --> 00:35:55,114
no guarantee that tomorrow's world 
will be more just, more equal,

627
00:35:55,114 --> 00:35:59,256
more rational, more tolerant 
or reasonable.

628
00:35:59,651 --> 00:36:01,648
Liberal rights without liberals 
to champion them

629
00:36:01,648 --> 00:36:04,188
are values without influence, 
with no defense.

630
00:36:04,655 --> 00:36:07,012
Let's not let our empathy 
for oppression of one group

631
00:36:07,012 --> 00:36:09,467
excuse their oppression of another.

632
00:36:09,917 --> 00:36:11,050
Thank you!

633
00:36:11,056 --> 00:36:34,983
(Standing applause)

634
00:36:39,568 --> 00:36:42,886
(Man) Well, OK, we have time 
for one question

635
00:36:42,886 --> 00:36:44,723
and then we'll have to take
a 10-minute break

636
00:36:44,723 --> 00:36:48,004
Nobody likes a time-keeper,
not speakers, not audience

637
00:36:48,505 --> 00:36:49,804
I'm here to be hated.

638
00:36:50,388 --> 00:36:51,790
(Man 2) I'm glad I got here first.

639
00:36:51,790 --> 00:36:55,597
First of all, thank you for your 
courage and bravery,

640
00:36:55,597 --> 00:36:56,810
with what you're doing.

641
00:36:56,810 --> 00:37:03,342
(Haider) Thank you
(Applause)

642
00:37:03,342 --> 00:37:05,489
(Man 2) You mentioned 
the word reform a lot

643
00:37:05,492 --> 00:37:10,861
and others have spoken of Islam
as potentially being

644
00:37:10,861 --> 00:37:13,527
at the, I guess the beginning
of a reformation,

645
00:37:14,087 --> 00:37:16,312
similar to what happened
with Catholicism.

646
00:37:17,072 --> 00:37:20,644
I guess I have two questions
-- sorry, two parts.

647
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:24,642
First, do you believe that we are seeing
the beginning of that?

648
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:30,014
And if so, do you, or should we have
any confidence

649
00:37:30,014 --> 00:37:32,646
that that reformation, 
if and when it comes in Islam,

650
00:37:32,646 --> 00:37:39,019
will be any less bloody than what
historically, we experienced

651
00:37:39,019 --> 00:37:40,718
with the Catholic Reformation?

652
00:37:41,901 --> 00:37:45,223
(Haider) I've heard that comparison
quite a few times

653
00:37:45,223 --> 00:37:47,467
and I made it myself quite a few times.

654
00:37:48,317 --> 00:37:51,902
But I don't think they are exactly 
the same, in the sense that

655
00:37:51,902 --> 00:37:54,503
this change will need to happen
at a different pace.

656
00:37:54,503 --> 00:37:56,659
It'll need to be faster,
and it will be faster,

657
00:37:56,659 --> 00:38:03,584
because of, you know, social media
and the way that secular literature

658
00:38:03,584 --> 00:38:06,063
and atheist literature has spread
across the internet.

659
00:38:06,063 --> 00:38:10,491
A lot of Ex-Muslims who join our group,
The Ex-Muslims of North America,

660
00:38:10,491 --> 00:38:15,164
tell me that they started thinking about,
you know, atheism or humanism

661
00:38:15,164 --> 00:38:19,478
when they first read something
Richard Dawkins wrote, back in Egypt.

662
00:38:19,478 --> 00:38:23,536
This is possible now, so I really believe
that it can be faster

663
00:38:23,536 --> 00:38:26,369
and I think that it doesn't 
have to be as bloody

664
00:38:26,369 --> 00:38:30,240
if the West is willing to stand up 
for the reformists,

665
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:36,498
with the reformists in the East.
(Applause)

666
00:38:36,498 --> 00:38:39,186
(Captions are based on Arun's transcript:
see link in description)