1
00:00:03,577 --> 00:00:06,903
[ applause ]
2
00:00:06,903 --> 00:00:08,013
[Julia Keller:]
3
00:00:08,013 --> 00:00:12,403
To read a novel by Umberto Eco
is to enter an enchanted forest -
4
00:00:12,403 --> 00:00:16,830
a symbol-drenched, passion-drowned forest
that's alive with murmurings,
5
00:00:16,830 --> 00:00:20,110
heavy with history
and glittering with myth.
6
00:00:20,117 --> 00:00:23,024
He writes of mad monks
and museums of technology,
7
00:00:23,024 --> 00:00:26,280
and, in his latest book,
of night-shrouded cemeteries
8
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,480
that are filled with
quivering, iniquitous souls.
9
00:00:29,813 --> 00:00:36,773
He writes about things we all recognize -
lust and greed and love - curiosity, envy.
10
00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:41,105
His books may dazzle us
with their erudition
11
00:00:41,105 --> 00:00:44,056
but they also are entertainments -
they're beguiling.
12
00:00:44,056 --> 00:00:45,515
Now, if you're here today,
13
00:00:45,515 --> 00:00:48,107
you already know all of this
that I've just said, but,
14
00:00:48,107 --> 00:00:49,718
I hope that after today's session
15
00:00:49,718 --> 00:00:52,403
you're going to know him
quite a bit better.
16
00:00:52,403 --> 00:00:56,043
So, it's my great honor and privilege
to ask you to join me
17
00:00:56,044 --> 00:00:59,704
in welcoming to Chicago,
Professor Umberto Eco.
18
00:01:00,049 --> 00:01:16,829
[ applause ]
19
00:01:20,382 --> 00:01:24,076
Professor, your new novel is, I think,
20
00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:26,926
one that contains things
that we all recognize.
21
00:01:27,170 --> 00:01:30,206
It's seemingly set in the 19th century,
but, The Prague Cemetery
22
00:01:30,206 --> 00:01:35,476
of course, has things that sound
eerily contemporaneous.
23
00:01:35,661 --> 00:01:41,968
There are all kinds of conspiracies
and cabals and plots
24
00:01:41,968 --> 00:01:43,792
that are hatching all over the place.
25
00:01:43,792 --> 00:01:45,312
So, my question for you is -
26
00:01:45,502 --> 00:01:49,345
how in the world did you know
this would be happening now?
27
00:01:49,660 --> 00:01:51,400
[ rumble of laughter ]
28
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,512
[Umberto Eco:] If I wrote this novel,
it was exactly because I believed that
29
00:01:56,512 --> 00:02:01,482
it can happen and will happen now
and in the future.
30
00:02:02,027 --> 00:02:07,807
And, when writing,
even though I made a lot of research
31
00:02:07,845 --> 00:02:14,085
to dive practically into the 19th century
and to live in that era,
32
00:02:14,085 --> 00:02:20,645
I was continuously aware that
I was telling about something around me,
33
00:02:21,917 --> 00:02:25,517
and I was always thinking of
somebody I know.
34
00:02:25,947 --> 00:02:31,187
And, I would like that my reader
used this novel as a guide -
35
00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:34,905
as a Baedeker to go around to say -
36
00:02:34,905 --> 00:02:39,585
"Oh look, one Simonini!
Look, one Simonini! Look, one Simonini!"
37
00:02:39,904 --> 00:02:43,803
You can do it in Italy, but you,
I think that you can do it also
38
00:02:43,803 --> 00:02:50,273
in Chicago, or in Washington,
or in Paris or...
39
00:02:51,359 --> 00:02:56,799
because then the...
well, I have written largely on
40
00:02:56,801 --> 00:03:04,125
the function that forgeries have had
in the human history.
41
00:03:04,125 --> 00:03:06,393
It's from the beginning.
42
00:03:06,393 --> 00:03:11,047
Sometimes even they had
a positive function.
43
00:03:11,047 --> 00:03:14,549
For instance,
inventing marvelous kingdoms
44
00:03:14,549 --> 00:03:18,079
and people went to explore the world
in order to find them -
45
00:03:18,349 --> 00:03:21,609
the El Dorado myth and so on
and so forth.
46
00:03:21,609 --> 00:03:24,864
And, sometimes having terrible effects,
47
00:03:24,864 --> 00:03:29,564
as in the case of
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
48
00:03:29,564 --> 00:03:32,614
So, I think that the...
49
00:03:32,615 --> 00:03:37,828
everyday activity of many [...],
50
00:03:37,828 --> 00:03:41,628
journalists, newspapers is
to produce a fake dossier -
51
00:03:41,628 --> 00:03:44,128
[ sporadic laughter ]
52
00:03:44,128 --> 00:03:48,128
is to give fake news.
53
00:03:48,598 --> 00:03:52,147
You know, being interested in
the problem of languages -
54
00:03:52,147 --> 00:03:57,147
I am a semiotician, so I am interested in
various forms of communication -
55
00:03:57,630 --> 00:04:03,350
I was interested in lying because
it's a typical human activity.
56
00:04:03,546 --> 00:04:04,946
[ laughter ]
57
00:04:04,946 --> 00:04:08,897
No, a dog tells always the truth.
58
00:04:08,897 --> 00:04:12,387
When a dog barks means that
there is somebody outside.
59
00:04:12,387 --> 00:04:16,387
I have never seen a dog who barks
in order to cheat me
60
00:04:16,390 --> 00:04:20,070
and to say that there was
someone outside... no. [ to laughter ]
61
00:04:20,070 --> 00:04:23,110
So, a dog is unable to lie.
62
00:04:23,110 --> 00:04:27,623
We lie continuously even in everyday life:
"Oh, nice to see you."
63
00:04:27,623 --> 00:04:28,983
[ laughter ]
64
00:04:28,983 --> 00:04:33,523
It's very polite,
it's a very polite lie, okay?
65
00:04:33,994 --> 00:04:39,191
"You look very well today" -
we are lying for more reasons
66
00:04:39,191 --> 00:04:45,851
and we are lying for terrible...
so that the human life is...
67
00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:54,229
completely filled up with lies
and fake news and so and so forth.
68
00:04:54,446 --> 00:04:59,944
That's my... the story of my Simonini
was obviously an exceptional liar -
69
00:05:00,303 --> 00:05:02,243
a professional liar.
70
00:05:02,243 --> 00:05:04,813
[Keller:] Right. Maybe just as a...
for those of you...
71
00:05:04,813 --> 00:05:06,533
The Prague Cemetery is about,
72
00:05:06,533 --> 00:05:09,183
if you want to just give it maybe
a brief synopsis,
73
00:05:09,183 --> 00:05:13,823
about this character in the 19th century
who really in effect winds the clocks
74
00:05:13,823 --> 00:05:16,933
of all the great conspiracies
from the 19th century,
75
00:05:16,933 --> 00:05:20,523
including that great forgery
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion
76
00:05:20,523 --> 00:05:22,483
and other forgeries.
77
00:05:22,483 --> 00:05:25,628
And, all the bad things that happen
in the world in the 19th century
78
00:05:25,628 --> 00:05:27,400
could be at this character's feet.
79
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,018
And, a great part of the novel
is his diary
80
00:05:30,018 --> 00:05:32,601
and his musings on
what he's doing and why,
81
00:05:32,601 --> 00:05:38,531
including the great Latin phrase -
"odi ergo sum - I hate therefore I am."
82
00:05:38,531 --> 00:05:40,832
[ laughter ]
83
00:05:40,832 --> 00:05:43,012
And, that's one of the phrases that
struck me in thinking:
84
00:05:43,012 --> 00:05:46,082
"Boy that sounds so much
like what we hear today."
85
00:05:46,366 --> 00:05:48,543
We hear a lot of the motivations for the
86
00:05:48,543 --> 00:05:52,243
some the terrible events
that are now rocking the world
87
00:05:57,413 --> 00:06:00,133
And, all the other terrible activities
that we think are so new
88
00:06:00,133 --> 00:06:04,133
and so unprecedented, of course,
have their origin many many centuries ago.
89
00:06:05,038 --> 00:06:08,758
And, your other novels too,
of course, deal with conspiracies
90
00:06:08,758 --> 00:06:10,618
and the tendency of human beings to
91
00:06:10,618 --> 00:06:13,088
not live up to our potential
as moral beings.
92
00:06:13,088 --> 00:06:17,168
[Eco:] Yes, well, at least one -
the Foucault's Pendulum
93
00:06:17,168 --> 00:06:21,967
But, it was in a way different
94
00:06:22,313 --> 00:06:27,553
because it was on the paranoia
of the universal conspiracy.
95
00:06:27,553 --> 00:06:32,803
So, it was a grotesque representation
of people who believe
96
00:06:32,803 --> 00:06:37,879
or pretend to believe in
a general conspiracy.
97
00:06:38,350 --> 00:06:42,890
In this case, Simonini makes
real conspiracies.
98
00:06:43,813 --> 00:06:48,773
We have to make
a very sharp distinction between
99
00:06:48,773 --> 00:06:53,123
a conspiracy and the paranoia of
the word "conspiracy."
100
00:06:53,433 --> 00:06:55,592
Conspiracies exist.
101
00:06:57,412 --> 00:07:01,432
In order to kill Julius Caesar,
they made a conspiracy.
102
00:07:01,432 --> 00:07:05,246
It was discovered the day after -
or on the same day.
103
00:07:05,826 --> 00:07:11,206
Catiline was making a conspiracy,
Cicero denounced it in the Senate
104
00:07:11,206 --> 00:07:14,456
and the conspiracy
was probably in this moment
105
00:07:14,456 --> 00:07:17,719
in Rome as in Washington
where people are making conspiracies,
106
00:07:17,719 --> 00:07:24,327
I don't know... to conquer a bank,
to change a minister.
107
00:07:24,743 --> 00:07:28,453
But, the paranoia of general conspiracy -
the word "conspiracy" - is
108
00:07:28,453 --> 00:07:33,282
there is somebody
and we don't know which one,
109
00:07:33,282 --> 00:07:38,144
who - in the world -
is trying to organize everything
110
00:07:38,144 --> 00:07:43,474
as a sort of a cult power
who has all the responsibility -
111
00:07:43,474 --> 00:07:45,334
we are not responsible.
112
00:07:45,334 --> 00:07:52,834
That's why all the dictators
used the idea of a general conspiracy
113
00:07:52,834 --> 00:07:56,574
in order to not be criticized,
114
00:07:56,574 --> 00:08:01,444
to keep their people united
against somebody... somebody.
115
00:08:01,444 --> 00:08:05,544
Yes, I, as a young boy,
having been born in '32,
116
00:08:05,544 --> 00:08:11,034
so, for the first 10 years of my life
were under the fascist education.
117
00:08:11,497 --> 00:08:18,867
It was educated to hate the conspiracy
of the demo-pluto-Judeo democracies.
118
00:08:19,784 --> 00:08:24,874
Democracy, plutocracy - the rich persons -
and the Jews.
119
00:08:24,874 --> 00:08:27,676
That was the world conspiracy.
120
00:08:28,597 --> 00:08:35,075
And, well, we are celebrating...~
we were celebrating yesterday in Italy
121
00:08:42,064 --> 00:08:46,304
a portentous event,
by which I read in the newspaper
122
00:08:46,304 --> 00:08:52,823
that people in the street
were singing Handel's "Hallelujah."
123
00:08:52,823 --> 00:08:55,283
[ sings ] Hal-le-lu-jah!
124
00:09:10,034 --> 00:09:13,024
But he was continuously saying:
"they are there, there they are
125
00:09:13,024 --> 00:09:16,814
"menacing not only me,
but you Italian."
126
00:09:16,814 --> 00:09:19,944
So, you have to invent the conspiracy.
127
00:09:19,944 --> 00:09:26,374
The Jewish conspiracy was
on the great element of this paranoia,
128
00:09:26,374 --> 00:09:29,344
not only in the 19th century,
129
00:09:29,344 --> 00:09:34,368
but one of the documents
were the "Protocols."
130
00:09:34,368 --> 00:09:41,128
and they were certainly born
in the second half of the 19th century.
131
00:09:41,128 --> 00:09:46,635
They were, I say "certainly"
because the only technical proof we have
132
00:09:46,635 --> 00:09:51,515
is that they were published
in Russia in 1905.
133
00:09:51,515 --> 00:09:57,225
But all the concoction
lasted for some decades,
134
00:09:57,225 --> 00:10:04,325
let's say, from 1860, 1850
until the end of the century.
135
00:10:04,325 --> 00:10:09,065
This uncertainty about the concoction
136
00:10:09,065 --> 00:10:15,025
allowed me to invent
a fictional story about...
137
00:10:15,025 --> 00:10:19,630
I could attribute to Simonini many deeds
138
00:10:19,630 --> 00:10:22,785
that were certainly accomplished
by somebody else,
139
00:10:22,785 --> 00:10:27,965
but we don't, we do never know
exactly who they were...
140
00:10:28,803 --> 00:10:32,133
because there were many,
many hands at work.
141
00:10:41,317 --> 00:10:42,837
It may be true.
142
00:10:42,837 --> 00:10:43,687
I want to ask is,
143
00:10:43,687 --> 00:10:46,407
we have such a short time here today
and I wanted to mention too,
144
00:10:46,407 --> 00:10:48,497
we're going to be taking questions
from the audience
145
00:10:48,497 --> 00:10:51,414
in just a couple of minutes
after we've finished talking here,
146
00:10:51,414 --> 00:10:53,387
and, if you would,
if you do have a question,
147
00:10:53,387 --> 00:10:55,369
Professor Eco would ask
if you'd come down front
148
00:10:55,369 --> 00:10:56,989
so to make sure
he'll be able to hear you.
149
00:10:56,989 --> 00:10:59,959
So, if you have questions
percolating in the back of your mind,
150
00:10:59,959 --> 00:11:03,289
just come forward in just a moment
when we go to a question session.
151
00:11:04,653 --> 00:11:08,133
I wanted to mention,
you love, lists, long catalogs,
152
00:11:08,133 --> 00:11:10,653
long litanies of things
in your books.
153
00:11:10,653 --> 00:11:13,473
They're filled with this,
these beautiful long lists,
154
00:11:13,473 --> 00:11:16,263
and you have a wonderful section--
155
00:11:16,263 --> 00:11:18,303
[Eco:] I have written also
a book on lists.
156
00:11:18,303 --> 00:11:21,683
[Keller:] Exactly, I was saying
and you talked about the reasons why
157
00:11:21,683 --> 00:11:24,993
and when you pointed that out,
I began to think of all the books
158
00:11:25,569 --> 00:11:28,799
that do have lists in them
that I hadn't really thought of.
159
00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:33,099
"Moby Dick" is filled with long lists
and Colin Harrison's "Manhattan Nocturne,"
160
00:11:33,099 --> 00:11:36,849
long lists, and Tim O'Brien's story
"The Things They Carried" -
161
00:11:36,849 --> 00:11:40,099
they have such power
and I was curious,
162
00:11:40,099 --> 00:11:42,859
but when when did you realize that?
When did the list sort of
163
00:11:42,859 --> 00:11:45,159
make itself known to you
as more than a technique
164
00:11:45,159 --> 00:11:46,699
but a kind of a poetical force?
165
00:11:46,699 --> 00:11:50,699
[Eco:] A long time, a long time ago.
166
00:11:51,387 --> 00:11:56,997
Now, I can tell you okay,
the first, the paramount example of lists
167
00:11:56,997 --> 00:12:01,247
is in Homer's Iliad
168
00:12:01,247 --> 00:12:05,507
where is the so-called "catalog of ships."
169
00:12:07,319 --> 00:12:10,822
What was the purpose of this list?
170
00:12:11,361 --> 00:12:15,880
There were too many: it is impossible
to name all of them.
171
00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:23,150
So, my mouth has not
enough tongues to tell of--
172
00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:28,560
this is a poetical topos
that returns, returns many times
173
00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:31,080
in the history of literature.
174
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,840
They have not enough tongues to say,
175
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,137
and so, the list being always incomplete,
even though very long,
176
00:12:39,137 --> 00:12:42,137
must give you the sense of infinity.
177
00:12:42,137 --> 00:12:47,287
In this sense, it is a beautiful resort,
178
00:12:47,287 --> 00:12:54,297
a beautiful... literary strategy,
179
00:12:54,297 --> 00:12:57,647
just in order to suggest infinity.
180
00:12:58,782 --> 00:13:04,012
It is very difficult to suggest infinity
without a list:
181
00:13:04,012 --> 00:13:07,082
I think that the only one who succeeded
182
00:13:07,082 --> 00:13:09,672
was Dante Alighieri
at the end of the "Paradise"
183
00:13:09,672 --> 00:13:15,662
when he's watching God
and in three tercets
184
00:13:15,662 --> 00:13:20,302
he says everything...
without making a list.
185
00:13:20,302 --> 00:13:24,722
But, it's a very exceptional case.
186
00:13:24,722 --> 00:13:29,662
I think that I found first the lists
and I became fond of them
187
00:13:29,662 --> 00:13:36,322
because I started as a medievalist
and by reading medieval poetry,
188
00:13:36,322 --> 00:13:38,922
and it was full, it was a very...
189
00:13:38,922 --> 00:13:46,928
And I remember that when I made
in Harvard the Norton Lectures,
190
00:13:46,928 --> 00:13:50,708
my first idea was to make them on lists,
191
00:13:50,708 --> 00:13:54,028
then I abandoned the idea
for many reasons.
192
00:13:55,043 --> 00:14:00,017
And, two years ago,
the Louvre
193
00:14:01,071 --> 00:14:05,411
is and was organizing
every year in November