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Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.74,0:00:39.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Philipp: Is there utter confusion in the chat room? No? Tech assistant: meta.mako@gmail, didn't we have that?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:39.07,0:00:54.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Phillip: You've got to click hangout, you can also send them the url. Why don't you send them the url, just copy
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.40,0:01:09.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it from the other window. Copy the url, then send it to them on skype. Ok. Tech assistant: This will be nice if we can
Dialogue: 0,0:01:09.20,0:01:11.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get them into the hangout then go. Philipp: I think I'm going to get started while you're adding them, we have
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.47,0:01:16.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about 5 minutes. I already started it, can you get the room video onto the stream please, if its not already?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:26.47,0:02:01.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is the room video on the livestream? Ok cool. Tech assistant: He says ok. Philipp: Just check that the live hangout is
Dialogue: 0,0:02:01.10,0:02:24.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,working please. Maybe tell the chatroom people to refresh. Ok, I think I'm going to get started here. Can you do
Dialogue: 0,0:02:24.60,0:02:35.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this quietly on the side? So the theme for today is open learning and actually I'm very glad that the two people
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.40,0:02:44.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are joining us have finally managed to join us. Its Audrey Watters and Benjamin Mako Hill. I'm not going
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.47,0:02:49.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to introduce them in a lot of detail, they're going to have a chance to speak about themselves a little bit and
Dialogue: 0,0:02:49.54,0:02:57.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their work in a second. But I'm very pleased that they were able to join us because on one hand I found them
Dialogue: 0,0:02:57.90,0:03:06.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be incredibly insightful and interesting observers and practictioners of open learning. And they've been looking
Dialogue: 0,0:03:06.87,0:03:13.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the space for a long time, I think they understand the dynamics better than most other people in this space. And
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.07,0:03:20.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the same time, they come at this with a very strong foundation of values and principles, which I think in the
Dialogue: 0,0:03:20.87,0:03:27.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,current, technology driven, open education discussion is sometimes something we're not paying enough attention
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.27,0:03:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to. Having these two join us today is great. And also I consider them friends so its nice to see you guys although
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.60,0:03:42.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're not here with us. I was a little worried that having the three of us talking about open learning, we
Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.74,0:03:50.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would agree too much and that would be boring. So I am going to try to play more of a facilitator, moderator role
Dialogue: 0,0:03:50.30,0:03:57.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and maybe ask some of the questions that I normally wouldn't be asking or I'd rather be answering to try to keep
Dialogue: 0,0:03:57.90,0:04:10.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the discussion interesting. And also my typical day job role of being open learnings biggest fan. So for the conversation
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.04,0:04:16.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I hope we can keep it kind of loose and free ranging and kind of go where your interests take us. Also take
Dialogue: 0,0:04:16.52,0:04:25.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some questions from the room and the online community. And maybe focus specifically on concrete work
Dialogue: 0,0:04:25.54,0:04:31.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you've done or that you've studied or that you've looked at and find interesting. So there are a lot of big ideas
Dialogue: 0,0:04:31.87,0:04:38.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in some of the readings and I think its always useful to tie it back to actual work that people are doing and I think
Dialogue: 0,0:04:38.44,0:04:45.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that both of you have such a wealth of experience, that would be interesting. So before we start I'm just going
Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.64,0:04:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to run through a couple of slides, I sent you guys the slides beforehand, its a little bit of housekeeping and looking
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.77,0:05:00.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at what happened last week and also connecting it back to the online community. In terms of logistics, you are
Dialogue: 0,0:05:00.04,0:05:09.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here live in a room with about fifteen students who are taking the course at MIT and then we're streaming it live
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.04,0:05:15.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,online and there are probably about 100, 150 people watching it live and then a few thousand people will watch
Dialogue: 0,0:05:15.19,0:05:22.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the video over the next few days. So there is a much broader audience than just the people here. So these are
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.97,0:05:29.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people who are joining us who can't be here today in person. I think its interesting that last week, I was wearing
Dialogue: 0,0:05:29.64,0:05:36.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a suit and tie and I was at an event just across the hall and I was by far the edgiest person on the panel despite
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.87,0:05:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fact that I wore a suit and tie. And today I'm wearing a sweater and jeans and I'm by far the least edgy
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.20,0:05:52.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,person in this panel. So I think thats interesting that the open learning space kind of tends in that direction anyways.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:52.87,0:05:59.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not going to say much about open learning, I'm going to let them speak about it. I found this picture of Audrey
Dialogue: 0,0:05:59.14,0:06:06.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at a conference and I had to use it because I think it demonstrates a few things. One is that the open learning
Dialogue: 0,0:06:06.27,0:06:15.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people are not huge fans of the traditional classroom instruction and also that she has an incredibly, I think this
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.07,0:06:25.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the iconic forced smile of the formal student that we all know so well sitting in a formal education environment.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:25.11,0:06:30.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Audrey: In the back of the room. Philipp: Exactly, in the back of the room, and probably doing things on your laptop that
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.64,0:06:39.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have nothing to do with the session. So a quick rundown, a quick summary of what happened last week.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.30,0:06:46.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We actually had an online activity where we asked people to teach and learn from eachother and there were some
Dialogue: 0,0:06:46.60,0:06:54.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,amazing examples of what happened in the overall community. So I've just picked out a few of them as
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.57,0:07:00.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,examples of the wide range of things that people offered and taught. And I got to see a few of you come to life
Dialogue: 0,0:07:00.80,0:07:08.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Kindergarten and Learn, actually I think Korean, so theres an interesting connection to Korean, and some people
Dialogue: 0,0:07:08.94,0:07:19.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were doing calligraphy I think or geometric patterns, so interesting things. And the online community experimented
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.70,0:07:25.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a whole range of different tools. Lots of them used google hangouts and kind of self organized, so it was
Dialogue: 0,0:07:25.87,0:07:33.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nice to see it. Just some of my favorite examples of what people came up with include: Some of my favorite tricks for
Dialogue: 0,0:07:33.52,0:07:39.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,amusing children in restaurants and other venues of Extreme Waiting, which I think is a course thats going to
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.77,0:07:48.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,run, with a lot of people for a long time. And then maybe the most kind of radical was Stage Combat including how
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.69,0:07:57.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to throw a good fake punch. And they posted a youtube video actually of how the session went and its quite
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.04,0:08:03.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,amazing. And one of the interesting comments, thoughtful comments about the experience that I wanted to
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.91,0:08:13.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pick out is that one person reflected on the courage it takes to do these kind of offering to teach someone something
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.70,0:08:20.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or signing up. I think that relates nicely to open learning because when we're doing all these things in an open
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.07,0:08:28.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,space, I think its sometimes easy to forget it does take courage to fail publicly or ask a question in front of
Dialogue: 0,0:08:28.60,0:08:35.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thousands of people and so I thought this was an interesting comment and also a great response from Arne
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.44,0:08:42.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who said it also took him courage as well. He felt like the worst case that could happen is a bunch of strangers
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.84,0:08:50.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would think he's a nut and the best case is he'd have a bunch of new friends. So low risk, high potential and then
Dialogue: 0,0:08:50.80,0:08:58.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go and a big smiley face. And then Simon Fogg whose now I think its now the second week in a row that Simons
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.20,0:09:08.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made it to the summary, and I thought just a good example for participants embracing the ethos of experimentation.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:08.70,0:09:14.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He tried a google hangout that he organized for the first time himself and it was a big learning experience for
Dialogue: 0,0:09:14.24,0:09:21.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,him and we are constantly doing the same thing and its great to see that not only we get to play around with new
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.50,0:09:27.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tools and technology and break things as we see happened today but also people who participate in the course
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.60,0:09:33.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are doing the same and I think thats great to see. A quick note about whats happening with the backchannel
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.90,0:09:41.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,chat. Because there are a lot of improvements and new ideas that we're implementing today. One is we have better
Dialogue: 0,0:09:41.69,0:09:45.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,video integration hopefully, where you can move the video window around, you can make it smaller, larger so it
Dialogue: 0,0:09:45.54,0:09:56.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn't interfere with the chat so much. We have automated logs now so people will be able to review
Dialogue: 0,0:09:56.77,0:10:01.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the conversation afterwards and we're thinking about some interesting analytics. We're also breaking people
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.52,0:10:08.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into smaller groups so if you're in the chat right now you will have noticed that you are in a smaller group than you
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.54,0:10:13.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,usually are and there are three of them I think. This is kind of an experiment to see if we can get more in depth
Dialogue: 0,0:10:13.70,0:10:21.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conversations going rather than having this firehose of hundreds of people speaking at the same time. So
Dialogue: 0,0:10:21.19,0:10:25.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something we had in mind but probably not going to do because of the problems we had in the beginning, was
Dialogue: 0,0:10:25.40,0:10:33.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do a break-out activity but we'll see how the rest of the session goes. And finally last week we did a midweek chat
Dialogue: 0,0:10:33.17,0:10:39.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where I think about forty people logged in to the chat and discussed what was going on in that week and asked
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.24,0:10:46.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions. We had almost the same amount of conversation we had with almost 200 people or 250 people during
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.86,0:10:53.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the live sessions. But we're not sure exactly where we should go with the midweek chat, is that something we
Dialogue: 0,0:10:53.87,0:10:59.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should do every week or do people maybe want to run their own chats? So we're kind of looking for some ideas
Dialogue: 0,0:10:59.24,0:11:06.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the community. And I also wanted to point out, to give a shout out to Drew Harry whose been the person
Dialogue: 0,0:11:06.57,0:11:13.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,behind a lot of the chat improvements and setting up the backchannel chat and whose really got some exciting
Dialogue: 0,0:11:13.30,0:11:17.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ideas where that could go. He hasn't been in the room here and he hasn't been in the live sessions so I thought
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.54,0:11:23.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we could say thank you Drew and you should follow him on twitter, he's doing really interesting work in this
Dialogue: 0,0:11:23.81,0:11:34.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,space. And then the final announcement is this week for the first time we're going to do a rebroadcast. So a lot
Dialogue: 0,0:11:34.07,0:11:41.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of people tune into the live session and then they can chat in the background. And then we thought for people in
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.04,0:11:45.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different timezones where this time is difficult we could do a rebroadcast or maybe two rebroadcasts. We're going
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.80,0:11:54.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do one tomorrow, mainly for Europe which will happen at 6pm CET. And then we're hoping to still do one
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.27,0:12:01.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for Asia but we're looking for someone to partner with who can definitely be awake at that time because we may
Dialogue: 0,0:12:01.36,0:12:09.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be sleeping. So without further ado, I'd love to jump into the discussion with Audrey and Mako and first of all
Dialogue: 0,0:12:09.80,0:12:17.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thank you very much for joining us and bearing with us through some of these technical details and problems we
Dialogue: 0,0:12:17.47,0:12:23.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had in the beginning and might even still be having. I'm seeing people frantically rearranging laptops around.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:23.70,0:12:34.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I thought a good first question would be to ask you how you got interested in open learning and what your
Dialogue: 0,0:12:34.04,0:12:43.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trajectory is. And as you talk about that maybe also give us some insight on what your definition of open learning
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.54,0:12:49.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is because there are lots of different aspects of open or people have lots of different understandings of open and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:49.80,0:12:57.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of learning. And I thought I could ask you guys to introduce yourselves by talking a little bit about your open learning
Dialogue: 0,0:12:57.77,0:13:06.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,experiences and why don't we start with Audrey. And i know we've had lots of conversations around this stuff and
Dialogue: 0,0:13:06.27,0:13:14.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around the larger courses that are happening right now. Also theres one conversation about the diminishing value
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.14,0:13:22.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the crafts where people, theres a more standardized way of education and learning that people seem to be expected
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.36,0:13:32.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to participate in and I think we were talking about carpentry or something and why isn't that more promoted or
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.02,0:13:38.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appreciated pathway? I don't know if thats the direction you want to take, feel free to go in a totally different direction
Dialogue: 0,0:13:38.40,0:13:42.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe just kind of take it away for a couple of minutes and talk a little bit about your work and how it relates to
Dialogue: 0,0:13:42.90,0:13:50.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,open learning. Audrey: So, my name's Audrey, I'm a education technology writer. And I've actually been
Dialogue: 0,0:13:50.87,0:13:59.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thinking about the way technology impact the way we teach and learn for a very long time. When I was a college student,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.84,0:14:09.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I actually dropped out of college and had a baby very young and ended up going back to school in the '90s under
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.37,0:14:16.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what was then called distance education. And always thinking about the ways in which technology was very
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.24,0:14:26.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,helpful for folks like me who needed to have a different sort of access to learning resources. But it wasn't until I was
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.20,0:14:33.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually in graduate school much later that I started thinking about open learning particularly with the rise of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:33.86,0:14:40.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,blogging and moving a lot of my conversations about not just what happened in the classroom but my own
Dialogue: 0,0:14:40.36,0:14:49.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,explorations and my own place in the academic world, that I started to really think about the sorts of networks
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.94,0:14:58.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was able to develop and the ways in which I was able to practice this, my work, my research in a different setting
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.04,0:15:08.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one that was more transparent than academia often allows graduate students to be. And I've been blogging
Dialogue: 0,0:15:08.34,0:15:22.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actively since around 2004 and for me thats the way in which I practice online. Some of it obviously has to do with
Dialogue: 0,0:15:22.19,0:15:33.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how I license my work, the way in which I share my work publicly but its also this notion of different sort
Dialogue: 0,0:15:33.24,0:15:40.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of transparency and a willingness to put ideas out there that might be half baked and engage in building networks
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.52,0:15:50.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with people, sharing ideas with people, working around exploring ideas together on the web. So I feel as though
Dialogue: 0,0:15:50.64,0:15:58.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thats a very different way of thinking about learning than traditional classrooms, sort of higher ed as I was exposed
Dialogue: 0,0:15:58.27,0:16:12.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to it. I do think its been interesting to watch, someone who spends a lot of time looking at this new interest and excitement in learning online that might
Dialogue: 0,0:16:12.44,0:16:20.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much of what I see actually replicates behaviors that are still very traditional in the classroom. Its less about open
Dialogue: 0,0:16:20.74,0:16:31.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exploration and more about moving that lecture scenario into a web based one. I think theres a lot to be said
Dialogue: 0,0:16:31.52,0:16:42.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about inquiry driven, self driven, open connections that online learning offers that simply by having open
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.36,0:16:51.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enrollment in online courses doesn't necessarily address. Philipp: Yeah and I definitely want to come back to that
Dialogue: 0,0:16:51.17,0:16:59.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,point about whats going on right now. But Mako, over to you. So you have a wealth of things you could refer
Dialogue: 0,0:16:59.14,0:17:05.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,back to but you shared a very interesting, very personal essay with me just a couple of days ago which I hadn't
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.20,0:17:13.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,read. I don't know if you want to reflect a little bit on that, kind of what you describe as unlearning and joining
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.70,0:17:21.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this geek culture and relating it back to whats happening in learning and education today. Mako: Can you
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.70,0:17:36.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hear me now? Is the mic working? So the essay that I shared is called The Geek Show Inherits the Earth or
Dialogue: 0,0:17:36.34,0:17:45.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something like that, my story of unlearning. The quick summary is that I grew up in, for a lot of reasons and in a lot
Dialogue: 0,0:17:45.87,0:17:54.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of ways not a huge fan of formal schooling as it was applied to me in particular. At the same time that I was
Dialogue: 0,0:17:54.40,0:18:05.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,struggling in school in a lot of ways, I was really thriving in a set of communities around technology communities,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.86,0:18:14.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technology development communities. I initially when I was twelve years old started contributing to a bunch of free
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.97,0:18:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software what a lot of people now would call open source, operating systems projects. I worked a lot on a project called the Debian Project
Dialogue: 0,0:18:24.30,0:18:37.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is a pretty widely used operating system in the flavor of Linux. I was part of the founding team for
Dialogue: 0,0:18:37.54,0:18:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the Ubuntu Project which is probably the most widely used Linux distribution.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.64,0:18:50.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so thats a little bit out of order, but I've been working on free software for a long time, sort of had this
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.36,0:18:57.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,life that I would much rather be spending my time on than a lot of the things I doing learning in school. Whereas I was
Dialogue: 0,0:18:57.24,0:19:04.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learning an enormous amount of stuff producing software that by the time I ended up in college was used by
Dialogue: 0,0:19:04.80,0:19:11.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,many millions of people. I finished high school early and moved to Ethiopia because my parents thought that
Dialogue: 0,0:19:11.20,0:19:20.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a great idea. They liked the idea of us seeing the world and I came back to go to college at sort of an alternative
Dialogue: 0,0:19:20.04,0:19:25.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,liberal arts school called Hampshire College which attempts to build an alternative approach to education and
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.87,0:19:34.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to learning into the curriculum. No grades or tests that sort of thing. And I spent a lot of time at Hampshire and
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.80,0:19:44.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,subsequently I've basically, I've been in and out of school, I'm finishing my PH.D. now at MIT but I spent a lot
Dialogue: 0,0:19:44.19,0:19:55.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of time trying to reconcile both my sort of position in very traditional academic environments and a lot of my work in
Dialogue: 0,0:19:55.84,0:20:02.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in these free and open software communities where really many of my friends are and where a lot of types of things
Dialogue: 0,0:20:02.97,0:20:10.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the world that I'm most proud of, have occurred. I think that I have worked in a few projects which are explicitly, what
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.27,0:20:19.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would consider open learning projects. I worked a bit with the One Laptop Per Child project. I really came to MIT
Dialogue: 0,0:20:19.44,0:20:26.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,originally because the project was starting up and I wanted to get involved in some of the discussion about the software there. Although
Dialogue: 0,0:20:26.14,0:20:37.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of communities that I work in are projects that aren't explicitly designed as learning projects, projects like Wikipedia,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:37.37,0:20:44.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Debian or a bunch of these free open software projects but I think enormous amount of learning takes place
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.07,0:20:49.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in what I think are these wonderful environments where people can join and begin to participate and ramp up
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.19,0:20:54.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and learn in that process. Thats the context in which I've tried to approach this and some of the ways in which I've
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.94,0:21:03.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tried to bring these two worlds that I operate in, together. My research is about free and open source software communities
Dialogue: 0,0:21:03.04,0:21:11.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and involves work in a lot of these communities as well. Philipp: Yeah actually could you maybe give a short summary
Dialogue: 0,0:21:11.87,0:21:17.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of how these communities work, because not everyone may be as familiar, so without going into all the details?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.54,0:21:22.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But if you could do a quick summary of how does an open community like an open source software community
Dialogue: 0,0:21:22.54,0:21:29.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,work, whats special about it? Mako: Theres lots of people who write pieces of software, we'll take an example
Dialogue: 0,0:21:29.77,0:21:37.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of pieces of software although people also create, try to apply similiar sorts of ideas to the other types of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:37.80,0:21:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knowledge products as well. One thing, I'll write a piece of software and what I'll do very often is, I'll write a piece
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.00,0:21:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of software to solve a particular problem that I have. I then usually put a free license on it and put it either on my
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.07,0:22:06.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,website or on another hosting website like Github, one many people would use and then I'll invite other people
Dialogue: 0,0:22:06.04,0:22:11.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to come work with me on it. What happens the vast majority of time, no one really shows up. But sometimes
Dialogue: 0,0:22:11.02,0:22:23.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a number of these projects are large communities people who are working together and collaborating on mailing lists and chat
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.02,0:22:32.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,channels. There are large numbers of people, the majority of whom are making smaller fixes like hey there
Dialogue: 0,0:22:32.30,0:22:36.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a bug in this I wanted this to work in a different way, they can download the software, they can make a
Dialogue: 0,0:22:36.00,0:22:41.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,change, they can share it back with the community. But sometimes people become much more involved, you end
Dialogue: 0,0:22:41.30,0:22:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up even with sometimes pretty complicated organizations. So the Debian project which is what I really
Dialogue: 0,0:22:47.60,0:22:55.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,got involved in is the product of, now includes more than 30,000 distinct pieces of software, all sort of integrated
Dialogue: 0,0:22:55.97,0:23:03.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together. It involves somewhere around 5000 people who have explicit membership in the project, theres a
Dialogue: 0,0:23:03.61,0:23:09.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,membership process, its a real community. I've travelled around the world, almost every city I go to I just look
Dialogue: 0,0:23:09.70,0:23:17.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up the list of local Debian developers. I'm going to be meeting up with some people, I'm here in Mainz in
Dialogue: 0,0:23:17.27,0:23:22.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Germany and meeting up with some Debian people while I'm here. Because theres a community of people who've
Dialogue: 0,0:23:22.29,0:23:28.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been working together, seen eachothers bugs, fixed eachothers bugs and through that process, we've developed
Dialogue: 0,0:23:28.04,0:23:35.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together an operating system which I'm running on my computer right now using it to talk to you and which
Dialogue: 0,0:23:35.67,0:23:46.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,millions of other people are as well. So its a pretty cool process and community. Philipp: Well the process you've
Dialogue: 0,0:23:46.50,0:23:54.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just described as kind of putting things out that you've worked on and letting other people contribute or give you
Dialogue: 0,0:23:54.57,0:24:01.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,critique actually sounds very similiar to what Audrey was talking about when she spoke about her blogging practice.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:01.70,0:24:08.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think theres an interesting question about how generalizable are these practices from open source
Dialogue: 0,0:24:08.47,0:24:16.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software communities to other areas of learning or other communities. I was wondering if actually there are
Dialogue: 0,0:24:16.90,0:24:23.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,two directions we could take with this. One is, one thing thats special about open source software is that
Dialogue: 0,0:24:23.36,0:24:29.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everyone who participates in that community to some degree works on the same thing, theres one thing that
Dialogue: 0,0:24:29.44,0:24:36.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people are producing together and theres lots of little pieces that you can tackle there to work on this one thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:36.37,0:24:44.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Maybe in learning other things we don't have that one or maybe we do. And thats one question there, how
Dialogue: 0,0:24:44.70,0:24:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,generalizable is that idea. The other one, the question that always comes up as well, this is for software people,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:51.77,0:24:58.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is for technology people but is this going to work the same process for other areas of learning maybe the
Dialogue: 0,0:24:58.40,0:25:05.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,humanities? And so maybe over to Audrey to just kind of riffing on this idea of how generalizable are these open
Dialogue: 0,0:25:05.40,0:25:14.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,source software lessons to other areas? Audrey: I do think that some of this, I think as we take what we can from
Dialogue: 0,0:25:14.37,0:25:23.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,open source communities, from software communities, some of this we have to think of in terms of metaphor. So
Dialogue: 0,0:25:23.04,0:25:31.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when I write something and if I were to post it and share it on Github theres sort of a different expectation about
Dialogue: 0,0:25:31.94,0:25:38.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what an essay does than what a piece of software does. An essay does not have to be executable in the same way
Dialogue: 0,0:25:38.52,0:25:45.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a piece of software does. When we think about debugging an essay its a very different process, I would
Dialogue: 0,0:25:45.30,0:25:54.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think practically than debugging a software. You could say in some ways its the same way, do you have the semicolon
Dialogue: 0,0:25:54.07,0:26:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the right place? But I think that when we're thinking about some of these things its actually about debugging
Dialogue: 0,0:26:01.44,0:26:13.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,outside of software is interrogating, interrogating more than just does the code run and can we improve the code?
Dialogue: 0,0:26:13.91,0:26:25.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I do think there are some really important and really valuable things that other fields can learn from open source
Dialogue: 0,0:26:25.47,0:26:33.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communities and part of it has to do with this notion of debugging and thinking about looking at things closely.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:33.34,0:26:43.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thinking about how can we fork ideas and always give credit back to build better ways of giving credit back to
Dialogue: 0,0:26:43.00,0:26:53.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where ideas came from. And also sort of this notion of remembering to license things openly. I've been
Dialogue: 0,0:26:53.94,0:27:00.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,experimenting with putting some of my work up on Github as well and I think there are a lot of interesting
Dialogue: 0,0:27:00.50,0:27:07.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ideas that we can learn from it. And there are a lot of things that we do in learning that I think we could make
Dialogue: 0,0:27:07.07,0:27:14.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,better use of some of the tools that have been built around something like Github, to be able to track changes,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:14.50,0:27:25.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have a more transparent way of filing and managing issues around our learning and not just around our code. Philipp: Yes
Dialogue: 0,0:27:25.27,0:27:32.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe just a quick note for those who may not be aware of what Github is. Its a source code repository where you if
Dialogue: 0,0:27:32.24,0:27:39.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're writing software could store your source code and then it was very easy for other people to make a copy
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.80,0:27:48.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of that source code to work on it for yourself and send back requests for improvements. So people would fork
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.20,0:27:56.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software projects. Maybe one of the more interesting things about it, is that it then spawned this huge community
Dialogue: 0,0:27:56.14,0:28:04.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of collaboration where people would be working on eachothers software projects, change requests and it
Dialogue: 0,0:28:04.41,0:28:11.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has grown to, if you were a software developer today, you'd kind of have to be on Github almost to be active
Dialogue: 0,0:28:11.87,0:28:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the community. So Mako, kind of continuing with how generalizable are these lessons for non-software
Dialogue: 0,0:28:23.44,0:28:33.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learning communities. I know that you've worked on kind of governance/community practices and guidelines
Dialogue: 0,0:28:33.20,0:28:41.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit about what you wanted to achieve in the open source community
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.57,0:28:48.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then think about would that be a good model for more non-software learning communities? Mako: I would say
Dialogue: 0,0:28:48.80,0:29:00.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first that the primary, the reason that I became involved with working in these software communities
Dialogue: 0,0:29:00.54,0:29:08.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was primarily because there was set of principled statements about why software should be free. And
Dialogue: 0,0:29:08.67,0:29:13.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the argument basically was two-fold. It said that it was important that software was free so that we could share
Dialogue: 0,0:29:13.97,0:29:19.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it and that anyone who wanted a piece of software could have it because of course if I write a piece of software
Dialogue: 0,0:29:19.02,0:29:25.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can give it to everyone for the same cost that I give it to any single person. So one argument was that we think
Dialogue: 0,0:29:25.97,0:29:33.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that sharing is good and that there is to some degree, an ethical imperative to share when we can so we should
Dialogue: 0,0:29:33.90,0:29:42.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do it. And the second point was that software should be under the control of the users because the software
Dialogue: 0,0:29:42.30,0:29:49.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I choose to use mediates my experience of the world, I'm limited in my ability to communicate to you by
Dialogue: 0,0:29:49.07,0:29:56.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,decisions made by the team that wrote the software that I'm using to communicate with you all now, hopefully.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:56.40,0:30:03.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mostly successfully. And those people who, the technology designers, the people who are implementing
Dialogue: 0,0:30:03.57,0:30:08.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the technology have an enormous amount of power over all the people who use the technology. They are
Dialogue: 0,0:30:08.30,0:30:15.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,determining to some degree what I can say or how I can say it, who I can say it to. And so free software was
Dialogue: 0,0:30:15.47,0:30:22.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a statement, I think most importantly about, who should be able to control their experience of the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:22.27,0:30:28.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because the argument went our experience of the world is increasingly mediated by technology. So I think that
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.67,0:30:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the perspective, from this principled level, I think the principles apply very clearly to thinking about learning
Dialogue: 0,0:30:37.36,0:30:45.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or education because I think to the extent of our experience of the world is mediated by the ways in which
Dialogue: 0,0:30:45.04,0:30:52.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we learn that the questions about how we learn and when we can learn should be under control of the learners.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.69,0:31:01.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,From a principled perspective, I think that things translate very well. The main argument in favor of free software
Dialogue: 0,0:31:01.14,0:31:07.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,, the reason that I decided to work on this stuff and lots of other people did as well, I think this is something that
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.04,0:31:15.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applies very well. In terms of the organizational forms or the particular tactics or even the particular tools like Github
Dialogue: 0,0:31:15.07,0:31:23.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think theres a sense in which, talking about the degree to which Github applies or doesn't apply, and I think in
Dialogue: 0,0:31:23.54,0:31:32.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some ways it could work effectively for something and in other ways its less good. I think that terms of what Audrey
Dialogue: 0,0:31:32.54,0:31:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mentioned in terms of questions of bug fixing. I think of work sometimes, I sometimes divide them into works
Dialogue: 0,0:31:41.74,0:31:48.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are functional and works that are less functional because its very easy to imagine submitting a bug fix to
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.37,0:31:56.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something like an encyclopedia article and in fact people do it all the time because there are things that are sometimes clearly
Dialogue: 0,0:31:56.69,0:32:02.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wrong, sometimes its a little more difficult to understand what might be right or the most right thing in a
Dialogue: 0,0:32:02.57,0:32:08.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particular context. But I think that even that conversation is something that happens a lot in the case of software very often.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:08.02,0:32:13.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think software is actually the.., as someone whose spent a lot of time writing software, I think the question of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:13.27,0:32:18.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what is or is not clearly a bug is something people will spend an enormous amount of time talking about. And
Dialogue: 0,0:32:18.87,0:32:30.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think thats a useful conversation that teaches people a lot about how we can learn a lot about it. But I think there
Dialogue: 0,0:32:30.64,0:32:37.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are lots of lessons in terms of the particular tools and terms of the particular processes and forms of organization
Dialogue: 0,0:32:37.30,0:32:43.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wikipedia was explicitly inspired by the free software movement, it used licenses and tools which were
Dialogue: 0,0:32:43.37,0:32:50.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,modelled after things which had happened, which had been built and used in software development for a long time.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:50.17,0:32:56.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have a lot of , I think that we can look around the world and see lots of places that we can learn from but
Dialogue: 0,0:32:56.64,0:33:04.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think theres lots to be learned in a bunch of different ways. Audrey: I think that theres something as well about this
Dialogue: 0,0:33:04.37,0:33:13.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,notion of software in particular, proprietary software thats increasingly that you are unable to crack it open and
Dialogue: 0,0:33:13.19,0:33:21.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,look at it and it truly is a black box. For me, thats the opposite of what, thats the absolute antithesis of what we
Dialogue: 0,0:33:21.90,0:33:30.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want learning to be. We want learning to be, we want to be able to hack it open and take a look at whether or not
Dialogue: 0,0:33:30.17,0:33:34.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're talking about our own processes or the subjects that we might be learning about. We do want to be able to
Dialogue: 0,0:33:34.36,0:33:44.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crack it open, study how it works, look at all of the pieces and figure it out at sort of a fundamental level, back
Dialogue: 0,0:33:44.74,0:33:51.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to use the analogy, back to the level of the code. So I think theres a lot to think about. How does open source have
Dialogue: 0,0:33:51.90,0:33:59.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a different way of us thinking about software that moves away from this black box that you don't want to know
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.94,0:34:07.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in that scenario, you don't get to know how it functions, you're just supposed to know that it works.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:07.07,0:34:16.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I think its important in learning that you don't just get this received knowledge that you're supposed to nod
Dialogue: 0,0:34:16.54,0:34:23.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and say, oh yes this is the way it works, of course it does because it appeared in my text or my professor told
Dialogue: 0,0:34:23.37,0:34:33.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,me that this was the truth. As learners we should be allowed to crack things open and look more deeply. So I think the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:33.61,0:34:41.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,open source model , openly licensed tools, things that let us dive in rather than stand back and consume are
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.60,0:34:54.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,incredibily important. Mako: I totally agree with that and I think the..., but also become a producer of the stuff. Audrey:
Dialogue: 0,0:34:54.52,0:35:00.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes. Mako: The metaphor that I sometimes use is imagine a world where we taught everyone to read but
Dialogue: 0,0:35:00.47,0:35:10.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not to write. And thats the world we live in, in regards to lots of different kinds of technology and software where
Dialogue: 0,0:35:10.86,0:35:19.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people don't have the ability, the can learn but they can't change it. I think thats a , you can imagine what
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.47,0:35:31.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the implications to like democracy would be. Its pretty striking. Philipp: Thanks, whats very interesting to me is
Dialogue: 0,0:35:31.20,0:35:40.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hearing you talk about it. One of the articles we read this week was Illich's Learning Webs chapter from
Dialogue: 0,0:35:40.40,0:35:48.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Deschooling Society. And a lot of things you just mentioned, you don't want the world to be a black box. You
Dialogue: 0,0:35:48.10,0:35:55.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to be able to tinker with it and look under the hood. He wrote about the Web of Things and had this fantastic
Dialogue: 0,0:35:55.44,0:36:01.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,idea where could you go anywhere, any building, any person, look under their hood and say, how does that work?
Dialogue: 0,0:36:01.27,0:36:08.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think theres a certain attitude in the open source world where people actually expect the world to work like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:08.50,0:36:19.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And sometimes even when the law or other limitations make that harder, we try to find ways around it. And then also
Dialogue: 0,0:36:19.64,0:36:27.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that theres a very strong notion of agency that I'm hearing in your remarks where its not only that we
Dialogue: 0,0:36:27.48,0:36:34.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should place limits on who controls access to learning and education but also that the people who are the learners
Dialogue: 0,0:36:34.27,0:36:42.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should be able to choose how they want to participate, first of all we shouldn't limit who can participate as much as
Dialogue: 0,0:36:42.94,0:36:51.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possible but then also how they want to participate is a question that we don't ask enough in formal education. So
Dialogue: 0,0:36:51.37,0:37:01.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it kind of leads me to a transition into a topic thats come up in the last few weeks again and again. In this course we
Dialogue: 0,0:37:01.57,0:37:08.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,often talk about very interesting and compelling ideas for how learning can take place and we find examples for
Dialogue: 0,0:37:08.84,0:37:18.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it but often, it hasn't really changed the institutions in which most of the learning still happens. Theres often a question
Dialogue: 0,0:37:18.44,0:37:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about, "I'm convinced this is a good idea, but how do I make my school do this or how do I make my university
Dialogue: 0,0:37:24.30,0:37:33.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do this?" And I think we should spend some time talking about this broadly. The question to tie it up would be,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:33.02,0:37:40.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is a very strong notion of activism in both of your backgrounds and works and there is certainly this kind of,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:40.80,0:37:49.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a little bit us vs them feeling and controlling these things on the fringes. I think thats been very useful because
Dialogue: 0,0:37:49.80,0:37:56.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its given us an identity, it creates a community of people who believe in the same things. But I'm wondering
Dialogue: 0,0:37:56.30,0:38:04.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whats the next phase in this. Will we have to be the alternative or is there a way to infuse the system with some
Dialogue: 0,0:38:04.34,0:38:20.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more of this activism? ...... I know I know either of you please. Audrey: I think that we're starting to see some
Dialogue: 0,0:38:20.24,0:38:31.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pretty interesting things particularly around push back around open access in publications, thats definitely
Dialogue: 0,0:38:31.69,0:38:37.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something thats connected to institutional power. Your success as a professor sort of deeply intertwined
Dialogue: 0,0:38:37.64,0:38:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professionally with your ability to publish, so how can professors help leverage and change the publishing, the
Dialogue: 0,0:38:46.64,0:38:53.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,academic publishing industry to be more open access. So some of the walls, the barriers to be able to access that
Dialogue: 0,0:38:53.27,0:39:01.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knowledge come down. I think we're seeing that around the open data movement so that people are showing
Dialogue: 0,0:39:01.47,0:39:10.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their work and having anyone has the access to the data, the raw data that went into making various tools, or
Dialogue: 0,0:39:10.77,0:39:20.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,making various decisions or doing research. I think the ways in which we're seeing openness permeate
Dialogue: 0,0:39:20.38,0:39:30.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,institutions, government, universities, Science, I do think we're starting to see some movement forward but I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:39:30.47,0:39:37.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not sure, I do think that even in those cases all of that work feels very much like activism and it does feel like
Dialogue: 0,0:39:37.77,0:39:46.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're having to agitate for pretty substantial changes in which these processes and institutions and business
Dialogue: 0,0:39:46.24,0:39:56.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,models have worked up until now. Philipp: Mako maybe just sort of tee off for you, why don't you say a few words
Dialogue: 0,0:39:56.27,0:40:03.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about where you're headed because I know you're moving into a more formal academic setting and how is
Dialogue: 0,0:40:03.20,0:40:14.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the open source activist going to be the professor of the future? Mako: I have a couple of ways to answer that. The first is to say
Dialogue: 0,0:40:14.14,0:40:26.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that we've made enormous progress, I'm not an old guy yet but I'm now no longer, I'm 32 years old. Philipp: Thanks for clarifying that. But I've been
Dialogue: 0,0:40:26.77,0:40:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,working in this space for now 28 years in free software and we've made so much progress. When I was a kid starting
Dialogue: 0,0:40:35.60,0:40:43.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out in this space just in terms of software you couldn't, it ran on almost no hardware, it crashed all the time, it was
Dialogue: 0,0:40:43.38,0:40:48.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,super buggy, it had no feature. I'm running an operating system which is almost entirely free software, my phone
Dialogue: 0,0:40:48.60,0:40:59.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,runs free software, your phone probably runs free software unless you have an iphone. And yes is it the world that
Dialogue: 0,0:40:59.27,0:41:06.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had envisioned in every detail, no of course not. There are lots of ways in which lots of things have taken turns
Dialogue: 0,0:41:06.57,0:41:13.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for what I think the worst but I think we've made important progress. The second point is that I want to continue
Dialogue: 0,0:41:13.19,0:41:19.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be the idealist. Yeah, I see lots and lots of ways in which we can, we want to make things better and I want
Dialogue: 0,0:41:19.60,0:41:25.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to stake out that ground. Other people will make the compromises necessary to put the stuff on my
Dialogue: 0,0:41:25.60,0:41:39.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,phone, maybe my constitution is the activist constitution and thats something which I want my world to be the crazy
Dialogue: 0,0:41:39.64,0:41:48.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not just saying that things are not good enough, but showing or trying to build examples of how it can be
Dialogue: 0,0:41:48.20,0:41:56.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,better. And I hope that I never live to feel that things couldn't be better because they just worked out already.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:56.52,0:42:08.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that means that I've lost my imagination or something. I think that that said theres all kinds of
Dialogue: 0,0:42:08.87,0:42:22.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,structural limitations that cause one to even in my own work not be able to live up to my own expectations. I can't
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.37,0:42:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as I teach, you know I'm going to be at the University of Washington teaching, starting next year and I'll be teaching
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.27,0:42:40.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,classes at a state university and theres all kinds of ways of running classes. I want to say everyone gets an A in the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:40.04,0:42:47.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,class today, if you never want to come back again, great, if you do maybe we could teach eachother something.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:47.24,0:42:53.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I haven't talked about it to the head of the department yet but I guess there will have to be some compromise
Dialogue: 0,0:42:53.44,0:42:59.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between that position and whatever else I'm going to work out. But I think that the fact that we have to
Dialogue: 0,0:42:59.97,0:43:04.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,compromise or settle does not mean that we can't move the needle. And I hope to be pushing hard on that
Dialogue: 0,0:43:04.94,0:43:11.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,needle for the rest of my life. And I think if theres enough of us doing it we can make real progress and I've seen
Dialogue: 0,0:43:11.24,0:43:19.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enough success in projects that I've seen in areas that I've worked on in relation to software, in relation, for example
Dialogue: 0,0:43:19.54,0:43:28.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,encyclopedias which are now freely available. Theres so much great free and open stuff now that didn't exist 20 years
Dialogue: 0,0:43:28.90,0:43:41.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ago. If we can accomplish as much, even if its only the, even if we accomplish as much, I'll be happy. If we can
Dialogue: 0,0:43:41.19,0:43:53.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,support the first derivative as well that would be even better. I don't know, I'm optimistic and I try to compromise
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.52,0:44:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as little as possible. Thats my answer. Philipp: Good, I think one thing that has been happening in the last year or so is that more
Dialogue: 0,0:44:04.70,0:44:12.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and more institutions are at least talking about experimenting with open learning and open education.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:12.10,0:44:22.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The example are these MOOCs which is an acronym that stands for Massive Open Online Courses, its even got
Dialogue: 0,0:44:22.67,0:44:33.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,open in the name of the thing whatever that thing is. And I think for many institutions they really do feel like this is a big
Dialogue: 0,0:44:33.30,0:44:40.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,experiment, this is a way of opening up access to the institution. I know Audrey has been writing and thinking
Dialogue: 0,0:44:40.17,0:44:49.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about this quite a bit and I wanted to together reflect a little on are these open courses examples for the kind of open
Dialogue: 0,0:44:49.04,0:44:56.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learning that we have in mind, or that you have been thinking about? Or where do they fall short and what are
Dialogue: 0,0:44:56.94,0:45:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of the things you find interesting about them? What are some of the things you'd like to see them do
Dialogue: 0,0:45:01.44,0:45:10.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,differently? Audrey: I think its really interesting to me particularly as Mako was saying we are living in a
Dialogue: 0,0:45:10.70,0:45:19.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,world now where there are so many interesting and powerful open projects that I'm seeing many, I'm seeing open become a
Dialogue: 0,0:45:19.07,0:45:27.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,word that is a bit like green washing, that as long as you slap natural on the label of your food, of course its
Dialogue: 0,0:45:27.57,0:45:36.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,healthy and good for you. So I do think we still need to interrogate what we mean by open and I think that its
Dialogue: 0,0:45:36.02,0:45:45.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,incredibly important that these classes are open enrollment. I think that letting anyone who wants to participate
Dialogue: 0,0:45:45.17,0:45:57.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in an online class, sign up, check it out for free is huge particularly in light of the high cost of college tuition. I
Dialogue: 0,0:45:57.67,0:46:06.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think this is incredibly significant and I don't want to diminish that at all. I think that those of us that are trying
Dialogue: 0,0:46:06.36,0:46:17.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to push these conversations forward, I think that we do need to ask other questions like is this sufficient, is open
Dialogue: 0,0:46:17.04,0:46:25.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enrollment sufficiently open, are these classes using openly licensed work? Do these classes live on the open web?
Dialogue: 0,0:46:25.97,0:46:39.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Are people in these classes able to form their own learning communities? And to use a technical term, to fork
Dialogue: 0,0:46:39.52,0:46:47.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the ideas that are happening in the lecture and then run down and build their own, go down their own learning
Dialogue: 0,0:46:47.77,0:46:56.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,path? I think theres a lot of what I would consider open learning that I tend not to see in these MOOCs that are really in some ways
Dialogue: 0,0:46:56.80,0:47:07.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an online version of the massive lecture hall in which the professor is still the person who has, purportedly, who has
Dialogue: 0,0:47:07.40,0:47:12.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the knowledge and is there to fill the student's brains with what they need to know in order to pass the
Dialogue: 0,0:47:12.11,0:47:22.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,multiple choice tests every 15 minutes. I think we need to push the boundaries still for MOOCs, I think they're great
Dialogue: 0,0:47:22.90,0:47:33.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first step in terms of access. But I'm not sure that thats my vision of what open learning looks like. Philipp: Mako
Dialogue: 0,0:47:33.80,0:47:38.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know if you've looked at these open courses a lot or if you've got thoughts on this? Mako: Yes, I think
Dialogue: 0,0:47:38.74,0:47:47.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that for me the most transformative learning experiences have been the ones outside the context of courses.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:47.00,0:47:54.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've had some great transformative courses but I think that, I've never taken a programming course, yes thats true
Dialogue: 0,0:47:54.44,0:48:01.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've worked in operating system projects for a long time, I've learned in communities where I wanted to do things
Dialogue: 0,0:48:01.47,0:48:07.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and had to, I looked in books, I looked at some type of course or teaching materials but mostly I learned from
Dialogue: 0,0:48:07.97,0:48:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,working with people, being exposed to code written by people that were better than I was, for example. I sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:48:18.36,0:48:24.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,half took one, I was one of those people who was curious, so I signed up for one and then dropped out half way
Dialogue: 0,0:48:24.10,0:48:33.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the middle, I guess like many people. I thought it was interesting and exciting. I totally agree with Audrey, this
Dialogue: 0,0:48:33.52,0:48:42.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,idea of theres a lot of important questions, that a lot of people at the moment are struggling with and I think even
Dialogue: 0,0:48:42.54,0:48:50.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fighting over what open enough is or what it means. I think thats a great opportunity for all of us who have
Dialogue: 0,0:48:50.44,0:48:58.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strong feelings about this to come in and help answer that. To think hard about what we think open enough is and sort
Dialogue: 0,0:48:58.64,0:49:06.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of draw a line in the sand. Philipp: I think we have a question from the back channel or from the room.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:06.67,0:49:16.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mitch: One question in the back channel is around the idea of debugging, Susan VG started the conversation
Dialogue: 0,0:49:16.17,0:49:22.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the back channel when Mako was talking about debugging software. Then a discussion about debugging
Dialogue: 0,0:49:22.24,0:49:29.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ideas and how can we draw that idea of debugging to all sorts of different things in open learning. Not just
Dialogue: 0,0:49:29.04,0:49:32.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thinking debugging the thing, but debugging our own thinking, so maybe they could reflect somewhat on b
Dialogue: 0,0:49:32.34,0:49:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,broader ways of thinking about debugging and open learning? Audrey: I think debugging is a very important
Dialogue: 0,0:49:40.64,0:49:48.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing in terms of our own learning and in terms of sharing our ideas with others. Its not necessarily a way in
Dialogue: 0,0:49:48.70,0:49:57.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which we often frame problem solving but I think it is a very interesting way to do so. Its something that as a writer,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:57.86,0:50:02.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone who spends a lot of time writing, i taught writing for a number of ways as well. Thinking about the way
Dialogue: 0,0:50:02.47,0:50:09.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which the logic for example of an argument works is something that you can think about in terms of debugging
Dialogue: 0,0:50:09.20,0:50:22.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of the logical steps of an argument do require certain perhaps not the same level of ability to run a
Dialogue: 0,0:50:22.20,0:50:29.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,program would but theres still has to be some process by which part A connects to part B and that leads you to part
Dialogue: 0,0:50:29.86,0:50:40.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C. So I think debugging is a really useful concept and its useful for I think students for their own processes as
Dialogue: 0,0:50:40.00,0:50:53.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,well. Define when they stumble, define places where the idea just doesn't execute correctly or efficiently. Mako:
Dialogue: 0,0:50:53.87,0:51:00.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, I agree. Debugging is one of these metaphors that is something that I use like in reference to not software
Dialogue: 0,0:51:00.57,0:51:08.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the time. Its one little piece of that software developer me that has come in and thought about other
Dialogue: 0,0:51:08.67,0:51:18.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,places as well. I think its more about the process, the idea of ok lets think about after this step whats the state
Dialogue: 0,0:51:18.04,0:51:28.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a way of breaking down certain types of problems in the way of undressing. I think its really useful. Theres a
Dialogue: 0,0:51:28.47,0:51:34.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bunch of interesting things, thinking about patterns, I'm doing the same kind of thing here and here and here
Dialogue: 0,0:51:34.25,0:51:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe I could think about whats the sort of abstract thing being used here? Also a lot of interesting tools. I also
Dialogue: 0,0:51:40.64,0:51:52.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think its limiting that there are lots of, not everything can be easily expressed as a bug, a lot of things are just
Dialogue: 0,0:51:52.10,0:52:03.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of nested or a matter of taste or fuzzier, they're less clearly wrong and so less clearly thought about in terms
Dialogue: 0,0:52:03.19,0:52:08.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of bugs or debugging. But I do think its a very useful process. I also like the idea, this is something that
Dialogue: 0,0:52:08.70,0:52:20.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applied to the way that I write for example in general, make the first path and go back and try to find the ways in which
Dialogue: 0,0:52:20.20,0:52:29.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things don't work, identify issues or bugs and then sort of address them. Philipp: Yes, we have another...just one
Dialogue: 0,0:52:29.37,0:52:35.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quick comment as you were talking about it, you reminded me of in formal education, you learn something,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:35.86,0:52:41.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you write a test at the end, you get the results, you move on, theres no time for debugging. And debugging
Dialogue: 0,0:52:41.90,0:52:49.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is considered something you wouldn't do in education. Either you've learned it or you haven't and the reality is you
Dialogue: 0,0:52:49.30,0:52:56.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,move on to the next thing. The reality is that, this course is an example of an experiment that gets debugged as we go along.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:56.69,0:53:05.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And often things go wrong but its often the best way to learn, to push yourself to the point where maybe things
Dialogue: 0,0:53:05.00,0:53:10.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will break and then debug them with the other people and I think its a skill that we are still learning because
Dialogue: 0,0:53:10.52,0:53:19.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when you're about to start the broadcast and the audio isn't working it freaks you out, its nervewrecking but in a way
Dialogue: 0,0:53:19.04,0:53:27.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its more exciting to learn that way than to sit in a room with no audience and play around with the software. But anyway
Dialogue: 0,0:53:27.30,0:53:35.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,theres another question here from the online community. Ricarose: So this question is from TL2 and they're
Dialogue: 0,0:53:35.90,0:53:41.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asking if the panelists have any advice for a classroom teacher, how they can advance open learning in these
Dialogue: 0,0:53:41.40,0:53:55.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,settings? Audrey: With classroom teachers with students, I think that part of it has to be moving towards a more
Dialogue: 0,0:53:55.32,0:54:05.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collaborative environment. I think theres something about traditional schooling in which we're taught as though the teacher
Dialogue: 0,0:54:05.04,0:54:11.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the textbook and although we're sitting in a classroom full of other learners, its somehow our learning is our own and
Dialogue: 0,0:54:11.94,0:54:21.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happens in isolation. I think that learning to work together, learning to debug and trouble shoot, solve problems
Dialogue: 0,0:54:21.44,0:54:31.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together, to me is the first step in openness, to be able to lay out your thinking in front of others and bounce ideas
Dialogue: 0,0:54:31.54,0:54:42.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,off of one another. I think moving away from this isolated, individual, being forced to learn alone, is really the
Dialogue: 0,0:54:42.47,0:54:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first step towards openness. Knowing that we always learn together, we always learn socially, we work
Dialogue: 0,0:54:49.20,0:54:55.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,collaboratively, as humans we should help make
Dialogue: 0,0:54:55.74,0:55:11.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learning look more like that rather than expect students to stumble through things in isolation. Mako: I would totally
Dialogue: 0,0:55:11.44,0:55:23.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,echo that. So one thing that I found very effective, is doing my work in these, not just outside the individual but
Dialogue: 0,0:55:23.37,0:55:32.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,within a group but out in the internet in these public spaces, it depends a little bit on the classroom but its often
Dialogue: 0,0:55:32.77,0:55:39.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very possible to encourage the students not just to document for themselves or for the classroom but to do
Dialogue: 0,0:55:39.27,0:55:47.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it in Wikipedia or a wiki on a particular subject and not to just throw it out there as a lot of people do but to engage
Dialogue: 0,0:55:47.11,0:55:53.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with other editors, people in the site, to do that. Its possible to if you're writing stuff in Scratch to upload those things to
Dialogue: 0,0:55:53.54,0:56:00.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Scratch online community, if you're writing software to upload it into Github or something else. In some cases
Dialogue: 0,0:56:00.00,0:56:04.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people are going to come back, they're going to work on it, they're going to make comments and that sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:56:04.37,0:56:14.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,engagement out in the world can lead to both the creation of these communities but also a kind of, I think when
Dialogue: 0,0:56:14.37,0:56:19.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people know their stuff is going to be public, they often treat it differently then they would otherwise in ways that
Dialogue: 0,0:56:19.90,0:56:27.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are good and in ways that are less good. I think that at least for some large sort of work its the kind of thing that you
Dialogue: 0,0:56:27.90,0:56:34.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can think about applying in classrooms right now which lots of classrooms are already doing in various ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:34.17,0:56:40.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In terms of these existing communities, encouraging people to get involved and put their stuff out there and try to
Dialogue: 0,0:56:40.84,0:56:51.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contribute to something that is not just directly useful to a lot of people but directly useful to, really useful to the
Dialogue: 0,0:56:51.37,0:56:56.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learning process itself. Audrey: I think that ties back to something you were saying earlier as well that we want to
Dialogue: 0,0:56:56.54,0:57:03.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really help students become not just the consumers of knowledge but also producers and creators of knowledge
Dialogue: 0,0:57:03.07,0:57:13.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,themselves. So when you help students contribute to learning communities, contribute online, they recognize
Dialogue: 0,0:57:13.47,0:57:18.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they have a stake in the creation and construction of knowledge that they really aren't
Dialogue: 0,0:57:18.87,0:57:28.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just these receptacles to have their brains filled up with other peoples stuff. I think that thats incredibly powerful that we want
Dialogue: 0,0:57:28.44,0:57:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people to feel that they can build and make not just consume things. Mako: And I think that so much energy
Dialogue: 0,0:57:38.64,0:57:50.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and effort goes into producing assignments which are then read by the teacher, just sort of put to the side. And
Dialogue: 0,0:57:50.64,0:57:57.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people learn in the process so that can be useful. But I think that in so many of these examples, there are people
Dialogue: 0,0:57:57.14,0:58:05.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who would love to really have problems that they want solved. Wikipedia, the vast majority of content in
Dialogue: 0,0:58:05.36,0:58:15.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wikipedia doesn't exist in any language other than English. People would love a poor translation even done by
Dialogue: 0,0:58:15.24,0:58:19.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone who was learning and they might be able to fix it up and if you stay involved you could learn in that
Dialogue: 0,0:58:19.94,0:58:28.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,process, is just one example. Philipp: Do you want to skip that? We're running a little bit.. Mitch: There's a few more
Dialogue: 0,0:58:28.77,0:58:34.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions but maybe we can ask Mako and Audrey to answer them online, we'll post them online and try
Dialogue: 0,0:58:34.18,0:58:39.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to get them engaged in the discussion in the Google + community. Philipp: That would be great and we're happy to
Dialogue: 0,0:58:39.31,0:58:45.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,point you to the right places and maybe summarize them. That would actually be a perfect example also for the open
Dialogue: 0,0:58:45.37,0:58:54.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learning communities we've been speaking about. We have to wrap up but I have a last question to you guys and then we're going to talk a little
Dialogue: 0,0:58:54.96,0:59:01.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bit about logistics. And that is, people, a lot of the responses that I often hear when we talk about these open
Dialogue: 0,0:59:01.34,0:59:10.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learning ideas is well this works for some people and that group is sometimes even described as an elite. Its not
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.60,0:59:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the old elite who went to all the right schools necessarily but it is, both of you have very compelling personal stories
Dialogue: 0,0:59:18.36,0:59:25.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you've been very resourceful and you've had strong interests and you've followed your passions. So I think
Dialogue: 0,0:59:25.77,0:59:33.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some people may feel, how can I apply those practices to my own life? And I think it would be great if maybe you
Dialogue: 0,0:59:33.27,0:59:43.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could say a few sentences about, is this a new elite or is this something fairly easy to pick up by anyone? And kind
Dialogue: 0,0:59:43.11,0:59:53.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of apply to their own situations? This is the part where I'm looking for an inspiring closing remarks. Audrey: I think
Dialogue: 0,0:59:53.44,1:00:10.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they don't work for everyone. I think if we can be make learning be passion based, if it can be inquiry based
Dialogue: 0,1:00:10.37,1:00:18.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if we can encourage curiosity we might not have students solving a whole new legion of math worksheets
Dialogue: 0,1:00:18.87,1:00:29.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but maybe we'd have them work on some pretty cool, things that really authentically drive their own learning forward.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:29.20,1:00:39.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I do think optimizing for passion, optimizing for curiosity are the whim here. And I think, I recognize there
Dialogue: 0,1:00:39.47,1:00:49.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are certainly barriers to doing that, there are lots of barriers to doing that online even. But I do think that finding what interests you
Dialogue: 0,1:00:49.57,1:00:56.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly for young learners and going with that is an incredibly empowering first start and its something that
Dialogue: 0,1:00:56.94,1:01:09.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,schooling tends not to do. Mako: And I think that not everyone is going to become a Debian developer, not
Dialogue: 0,1:01:09.11,1:01:16.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everyone is going to work on the kinds of projects that I've worked on and I think thats great. Because theres a world
Dialogue: 0,1:01:16.04,1:01:21.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of other stuff which is not being done at all and is really important. Theres a bunch of really great projects
Dialogue: 0,1:01:21.74,1:01:30.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going around to seniors and helping provide a little bit of information to them on how they can contribute to
Dialogue: 0,1:01:30.47,1:01:38.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wikipedia for example so that they can document their own experiences in their lives in their towns and villages and
Dialogue: 0,1:01:38.11,1:01:45.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,spaces. Its been enormously useful to them and transformative to them that they are able to do this. And its
Dialogue: 0,1:01:45.07,1:01:53.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really great for the rest of the world that gets access to all this really great information. There are huge, I think that
Dialogue: 0,1:01:53.81,1:02:11.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whats necessary is more just, everyone has skills and interests which other people want enormously at any
Dialogue: 0,1:02:11.24,1:02:18.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,given point and I think could benefit from that. I think that those of us who've been, and I count myself as one of
Dialogue: 0,1:02:18.77,1:02:24.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them, who've been building tools to support this kind of work have historically focused on the kinds of things that
Dialogue: 0,1:02:24.54,1:02:29.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are useful to them. So as a software developer I spent a lot of time writing tools that are often useful for other software
Dialogue: 0,1:02:29.14,1:02:41.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,developers. And I think that if we spent 10% as much time building tools for great documentation of, or collaboration
Dialogue: 0,1:02:41.17,1:02:47.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around articles of fashion or clothing, we would have so much more work in that space. Thats just an example
Dialogue: 0,1:02:47.44,1:02:52.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of something that I think has been relatively underserved in these communities as compared to software. But I
Dialogue: 0,1:02:52.44,1:02:59.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think you can just look around and I see that theres a world of opportunity and I think that this is only going to get
Dialogue: 0,1:02:59.69,1:03:10.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,broader and only going to get bigger and no one has any excuse anymore. Philipp: Thank you both for participating
Dialogue: 0,1:03:10.20,1:03:17.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and tuning in from, actually Makos in Berlin, Audrey is in California, we're all over the world here, and sharing
Dialogue: 0,1:03:17.74,1:03:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your stories and your thoughts on this. There are a couple of more slides about next week. I'm going to hand over
Dialogue: 0,1:03:26.00,1:03:41.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to Mitch or Ricarose. I've also got the remix slide so maybe, do you want to? Ricarose: So next week we'll have
Dialogue: 0,1:03:41.31,1:03:51.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the theme will be Social Creativity and we'll have Gerard Fischer and Andres Monroy Hernandez with us.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:51.57,1:03:58.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For the activity next week, we're going to do another activity with Scratch, we're going to do a remixing
Dialogue: 0,1:03:58.52,1:04:07.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,activity. As you can see there is a project page in Scratch website, scratch.mit.edu and we'll ask you to explore
Dialogue: 0,1:04:07.02,1:04:15.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of their projects there and find a project that you think is interesting and you can download it and look at the
Dialogue: 0,1:04:15.00,1:04:22.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,code and remix it. So you can build upon this project and we'd like you to share it again on this Scratch website and
Dialogue: 0,1:04:22.84,1:04:31.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the project notes share what you changed and also remember to give credit. Is there anything else? Philipp: No
Dialogue: 0,1:04:31.16,1:04:36.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thats it so thanks for participating, thanks to you guys again, thanks to the online community and for those who
Dialogue: 0,1:04:36.12,1:04:40.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are, for whom this time didn't work maybe we'll see you tomorrow for the rebroadcast of the session.