1 00:00:03,393 --> 00:00:04,621 Science, 2 00:00:04,621 --> 00:00:07,958 science has allowed us to know so much 3 00:00:07,958 --> 00:00:10,984 about the far reaches of the universe, 4 00:00:10,984 --> 00:00:14,179 which is at the same time tremendously important 5 00:00:14,179 --> 00:00:16,245 and extremely remote, 6 00:00:16,245 --> 00:00:18,704 and yet much, much closer, 7 00:00:18,704 --> 00:00:20,795 much more directly related to us, 8 00:00:20,795 --> 00:00:23,263 there are many things we don't really understand. 9 00:00:23,263 --> 00:00:25,392 And one of them is the extraordinary 10 00:00:25,392 --> 00:00:28,718 social complexity of the animals around us, 11 00:00:28,718 --> 00:00:30,734 and today I want to tell you a few stories 12 00:00:30,734 --> 00:00:32,742 of animal complexity. 13 00:00:32,742 --> 00:00:36,092 But first, what do we call complexity? 14 00:00:36,092 --> 00:00:37,579 What is complex? 15 00:00:37,579 --> 00:00:41,006 Well, complex is not complicated. 16 00:00:41,006 --> 00:00:44,454 Something complicated comprises many small parts, 17 00:00:44,454 --> 00:00:46,884 all different, and each of them 18 00:00:46,899 --> 00:00:50,003 has its own precise role in the machinery. 19 00:00:50,003 --> 00:00:52,814 On the opposite, a complex system 20 00:00:52,814 --> 00:00:55,455 is made of many, many similar parts, 21 00:00:55,455 --> 00:00:57,463 and it is their interaction 22 00:00:57,463 --> 00:01:00,783 that produces a globally coherent behavior. 23 00:01:00,783 --> 00:01:04,619 Complex systems have many interacting parts 24 00:01:04,619 --> 00:01:08,045 which behave according to simple, individual rules, 25 00:01:08,045 --> 00:01:11,394 and this results in emergent properties. 26 00:01:11,394 --> 00:01:13,282 The behavior of the system as a whole 27 00:01:13,282 --> 00:01:14,950 cannot be predicted 28 00:01:14,950 --> 00:01:17,102 from the individual rules only. 29 00:01:17,102 --> 00:01:18,912 As Aristotle wrote, 30 00:01:18,912 --> 00:01:21,972 the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. 31 00:01:21,972 --> 00:01:24,434 But from Aristotle, let's move onto 32 00:01:24,434 --> 00:01:28,124 a more concrete example of complex systems. 33 00:01:28,124 --> 00:01:30,080 These are Scottish terriers. 34 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,831 In the beginning, the system is disorganized. 35 00:01:33,831 --> 00:01:37,632 Then comes a perturbation: milk. 36 00:01:37,632 --> 00:01:41,482 Every individual starts pushing in one direction 37 00:01:41,482 --> 00:01:44,791 and this is what happens. 38 00:01:44,791 --> 00:01:47,617 The pinwheel is an emergent property 39 00:01:47,617 --> 00:01:49,520 of the interactions between puppies 40 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,430 whose only rule is to try to keep access to the milk 41 00:01:53,430 --> 00:01:57,037 and therefore to push in a random direction. 42 00:01:57,037 --> 00:02:01,012 So it's all about finding the simple rules 43 00:02:01,012 --> 00:02:03,770 from which complexity emerges. 44 00:02:03,770 --> 00:02:06,710 I call this simplifying complexity, 45 00:02:06,710 --> 00:02:08,845 and it's what we do at the chair of systems design 46 00:02:08,845 --> 00:02:10,822 at ETH Zurich. 47 00:02:10,822 --> 00:02:14,527 We collect data on animal populations, 48 00:02:14,527 --> 00:02:18,338 analyze complex patterns, try to explain them. 49 00:02:18,338 --> 00:02:20,957 It requires physicists who work with biologists, 50 00:02:20,957 --> 00:02:23,680 with mathematicians and computer scientists, 51 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,500 and it is their interaction that produces 52 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:28,214 cross-boundary competence 53 00:02:28,214 --> 00:02:29,792 to solve these problems. 54 00:02:29,792 --> 00:02:32,064 So again, the whole is greater 55 00:02:32,064 --> 00:02:33,464 than the sum of the parts. 56 00:02:33,464 --> 00:02:35,614 In a way, collaboration 57 00:02:35,614 --> 00:02:39,105 is another example of a complex system. 58 00:02:39,105 --> 00:02:40,981 And you may be asking yourself 59 00:02:40,981 --> 00:02:43,798 which side I'm on, biology or physics? 60 00:02:43,798 --> 00:02:45,909 In fact, it's a little different, 61 00:02:45,909 --> 00:02:47,498 and to explain, I need to tell you 62 00:02:47,498 --> 00:02:49,840 a short story about myself. 63 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,567 When I was a child, 64 00:02:51,567 --> 00:02:55,676 I loved to build stuff, to create complicated machines. 65 00:02:55,676 --> 00:02:58,413 So I set out to study electrical engineering 66 00:02:58,413 --> 00:02:59,965 and robotics, 67 00:02:59,965 --> 00:03:02,058 and my end-of-studies project 68 00:03:02,058 --> 00:03:04,984 was about building a robot called ER-1 -- 69 00:03:04,984 --> 00:03:06,914 it looked like this— 70 00:03:06,914 --> 00:03:09,285 that would collect information from its environment 71 00:03:09,285 --> 00:03:12,783 and proceed to follow a white line on the ground. 72 00:03:12,783 --> 00:03:15,162 It was very, very complicated, 73 00:03:15,162 --> 00:03:18,146 but it worked beautifully in our test room, 74 00:03:18,146 --> 00:03:21,599 and on demo day, professors had assembled to grade the project. 75 00:03:21,607 --> 00:03:24,509 So we took ER-1 to the evaluation room. 76 00:03:24,509 --> 00:03:26,819 It turned out, the light in that room 77 00:03:26,819 --> 00:03:28,638 was slightly different. 78 00:03:28,638 --> 00:03:30,969 The robot's vision system got confused. 79 00:03:30,969 --> 00:03:32,730 At the first bend in the line, 80 00:03:32,730 --> 00:03:36,469 it left its course, and crashed into a wall. 81 00:03:36,469 --> 00:03:38,556 We had spent weeks building it, 82 00:03:38,556 --> 00:03:40,229 and all it took to destroy it 83 00:03:40,229 --> 00:03:42,885 was a subtle change in the color of the light 84 00:03:42,885 --> 00:03:44,481 in the room. 85 00:03:44,481 --> 00:03:45,996 That's when I realized that 86 00:03:45,996 --> 00:03:48,323 the more complicated you make a machine, 87 00:03:48,323 --> 00:03:50,362 the more likely that it will fail 88 00:03:50,362 --> 00:03:52,925 due to something absolutely unexpected. 89 00:03:52,925 --> 00:03:54,755 And I decided that, in fact, 90 00:03:54,755 --> 00:03:57,768 I didn't really want to create complicated stuff. 91 00:03:57,768 --> 00:04:00,710 I wanted to understand complexity, 92 00:04:00,710 --> 00:04:02,698 the complexity of the world around us 93 00:04:02,698 --> 00:04:05,103 and especially in the animal kingdom. 94 00:04:05,103 --> 00:04:08,423 Which brings us to bats. 95 00:04:08,423 --> 00:04:11,474 Bechstein's bats are a common species of European bats. 96 00:04:11,474 --> 00:04:12,887 They are very social animals. 97 00:04:12,887 --> 00:04:16,178 Mostly they roost, or sleep, together. 98 00:04:16,178 --> 00:04:17,857 And they live in maternity colonies, 99 00:04:17,857 --> 00:04:19,397 which means that every spring, 100 00:04:19,397 --> 00:04:22,655 the females meet after the winter hibernation, 101 00:04:22,655 --> 00:04:24,744 and they stay together for about six months 102 00:04:24,744 --> 00:04:27,230 to rear their young, 103 00:04:27,230 --> 00:04:30,035 and they all carry a very small chip, 104 00:04:30,035 --> 00:04:31,906 which means that every time one of them 105 00:04:31,906 --> 00:04:34,963 enters one of these specially equipped bat boxes, 106 00:04:34,963 --> 00:04:36,606 we know where she is, 107 00:04:36,606 --> 00:04:37,775 and more importantly, 108 00:04:37,775 --> 00:04:40,338 we know with whom she is. 109 00:04:40,338 --> 00:04:44,032 So I study roosting associations in bats, 110 00:04:44,032 --> 00:04:46,477 and this is what it looks like. 111 00:04:46,477 --> 00:04:48,919 During the day, the bats roost 112 00:04:48,919 --> 00:04:51,223 in a number of sub-groups in different boxes. 113 00:04:51,223 --> 00:04:53,152 It could be that on one day, 114 00:04:53,152 --> 00:04:55,372 the colony is split between two boxes, 115 00:04:55,372 --> 00:04:56,672 but on another day, 116 00:04:56,672 --> 00:04:58,913 it could be together in a single box, 117 00:04:58,913 --> 00:05:01,229 or split between three or more boxes, 118 00:05:01,229 --> 00:05:04,156 and that all seems rather erratic, really. 119 00:05:04,156 --> 00:05:07,359 It's called fission-fusion dynamics, 120 00:05:07,359 --> 00:05:09,072 the property for an animal group 121 00:05:09,072 --> 00:05:11,250 of regularly splitting and merging 122 00:05:11,250 --> 00:05:12,911 into different subgroups. 123 00:05:12,911 --> 00:05:15,473 So what we do is take all these data 124 00:05:15,473 --> 00:05:17,135 from all these different days 125 00:05:17,135 --> 00:05:18,639 and pool them together 126 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:21,256 to extract a long-term association pattern 127 00:05:21,256 --> 00:05:23,761 by applying techniques with network analysis 128 00:05:23,761 --> 00:05:25,382 to get a complete picture 129 00:05:25,382 --> 00:05:27,919 of the social structure of the colony. 130 00:05:27,919 --> 00:05:32,184 Okay? So that's what this picture looks like. 131 00:05:32,184 --> 00:05:34,578 In this network, all the circles 132 00:05:34,578 --> 00:05:37,355 are nodes, individual bats, 133 00:05:37,355 --> 00:05:38,938 and the lines between them 134 00:05:38,938 --> 00:05:42,602 are social bonds, associations between individuals. 135 00:05:42,602 --> 00:05:45,280 It turns out this is a very interesting picture. 136 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:47,262 This bat colony is organized 137 00:05:47,262 --> 00:05:49,130 in two different communities 138 00:05:49,130 --> 00:05:50,969 which cannot be predicted 139 00:05:50,969 --> 00:05:53,218 from the daily fission-fusion dynamics. 140 00:05:53,218 --> 00:05:56,768 We call them cryptic social units. 141 00:05:56,768 --> 00:05:58,384 Even more interesting, in fact: 142 00:05:58,384 --> 00:06:00,748 Every year, around October, 143 00:06:00,748 --> 00:06:02,309 the colony splits up, 144 00:06:02,309 --> 00:06:05,007 and all bats hibernate separately, 145 00:06:05,007 --> 00:06:06,468 but year after year, 146 00:06:06,468 --> 00:06:09,541 when the bats come together again in the spring, 147 00:06:09,541 --> 00:06:12,131 the communities stay the same. 148 00:06:12,131 --> 00:06:14,851 So these bats remember their friends 149 00:06:14,851 --> 00:06:16,681 for a really long time. 150 00:06:16,681 --> 00:06:19,155 With a brain the size of a peanut, 151 00:06:19,155 --> 00:06:21,280 they maintain individualized, 152 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:23,422 long-term social bonds, 153 00:06:23,422 --> 00:06:25,146 We didn't know that was possible. 154 00:06:25,146 --> 00:06:26,905 We knew that primates 155 00:06:26,905 --> 00:06:29,473 and elephants and dolphins could do that, 156 00:06:29,473 --> 00:06:32,101 but compared to bats, they have huge brains. 157 00:06:32,101 --> 00:06:34,500 So how could it be 158 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:36,451 that the bats maintain this complex, 159 00:06:36,451 --> 00:06:38,139 stable social structure 160 00:06:38,139 --> 00:06:41,671 with such limited cognitive abilities? 161 00:06:41,671 --> 00:06:44,560 And this is where complexity brings an answer. 162 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,701 To understand this system, 163 00:06:46,701 --> 00:06:49,498 we built a computer model of roosting, 164 00:06:49,498 --> 00:06:51,516 based on simple, individual rules, 165 00:06:51,516 --> 00:06:53,951 and simulated thousands and thousands of days 166 00:06:53,951 --> 00:06:55,970 in the virtual bat colony. 167 00:06:55,970 --> 00:06:58,094 It's a mathematical model, 168 00:06:58,094 --> 00:07:00,048 but it's not complicated. 169 00:07:00,048 --> 00:07:03,146 What the model told us is that, in a nutshell, 170 00:07:03,146 --> 00:07:06,332 each bat knows a few other colony members 171 00:07:06,332 --> 00:07:08,820 as her friends, and is just slightly more likely 172 00:07:08,820 --> 00:07:11,330 to roost in a box with them. 173 00:07:11,330 --> 00:07:13,774 Simple, individual rules. 174 00:07:13,774 --> 00:07:15,486 This is all it takes to explain 175 00:07:15,486 --> 00:07:17,875 the social complexity of these bats. 176 00:07:17,875 --> 00:07:19,593 But it gets better. 177 00:07:19,593 --> 00:07:22,441 Between 2010 and 2011, 178 00:07:22,441 --> 00:07:25,894 the colony lost more than two thirds of its members, 179 00:07:25,894 --> 00:07:28,880 probably due to the very cold winter. 180 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,024 The next spring, it didn't form two communities 181 00:07:32,024 --> 00:07:33,295 like every year, 182 00:07:33,295 --> 00:07:35,498 which may have led the whole colony to die 183 00:07:35,498 --> 00:07:37,593 because it had become too small. 184 00:07:37,593 --> 00:07:42,966 Instead, it formed a single, cohesive social unit, 185 00:07:42,966 --> 00:07:45,698 which allowed the colony to survive that season 186 00:07:45,698 --> 00:07:48,802 and thrive again in the next two years. 187 00:07:48,802 --> 00:07:50,580 What we know is that the bats 188 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:53,487 are not aware that their colony is doing this. 189 00:07:53,487 --> 00:07:57,033 All they do is follow simple association rules, 190 00:07:57,033 --> 00:07:58,382 and from this simplicity 191 00:07:58,382 --> 00:08:00,823 emerges social complexity 192 00:08:00,823 --> 00:08:03,663 which allows the colony to be resilient 193 00:08:03,663 --> 00:08:06,644 against dramatic changes in the population structure. 194 00:08:06,644 --> 00:08:09,338 And I find this incredible. 195 00:08:09,338 --> 00:08:11,422 Now I want to tell you another story, 196 00:08:11,422 --> 00:08:12,977 but for this we have to travel from Europe 197 00:08:12,977 --> 00:08:16,025 to the Kalahari Desert in South Africa. 198 00:08:16,025 --> 00:08:18,052 This is where meerkats live. 199 00:08:18,052 --> 00:08:19,552 I'm sure you know meerkats. 200 00:08:19,552 --> 00:08:21,658 They're fascinating creatures. 201 00:08:21,658 --> 00:08:24,647 They live in groups with a very strict social hierarchy. 202 00:08:24,647 --> 00:08:26,106 There is one dominant pair, 203 00:08:26,106 --> 00:08:27,488 and many subordinates, 204 00:08:27,488 --> 00:08:29,202 some acting as sentinels, 205 00:08:29,202 --> 00:08:30,539 some acting as babysitters, 206 00:08:30,539 --> 00:08:32,436 some teaching pups, and so on. 207 00:08:32,436 --> 00:08:35,757 What we do is put very small GPS collars 208 00:08:35,757 --> 00:08:37,282 on these animals 209 00:08:37,282 --> 00:08:39,157 to study how they move together, 210 00:08:39,157 --> 00:08:42,874 and what this has to do with their social structure. 211 00:08:42,874 --> 00:08:44,364 And there's a very interesting example 212 00:08:44,364 --> 00:08:47,080 of collective movement in meerkats. 213 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,447 In the middle of the reserve which they live in 214 00:08:49,447 --> 00:08:50,656 lies a road. 215 00:08:50,656 --> 00:08:53,889 On this road there are cars, so it's dangerous. 216 00:08:53,889 --> 00:08:56,173 But the meerkats have to cross it 217 00:08:56,173 --> 00:08:58,747 to get from one feeding place to another. 218 00:08:58,747 --> 00:09:03,498 So we asked, how exactly do they do this? 219 00:09:03,498 --> 00:09:05,334 We found that the dominant female 220 00:09:05,334 --> 00:09:07,955 is mostly the one who leads the group to the road, 221 00:09:07,955 --> 00:09:11,227 but when it comes to crossing it, crossing the road, 222 00:09:11,227 --> 00:09:13,578 she gives way to the subordinates, 223 00:09:13,578 --> 00:09:15,355 a manner of saying, 224 00:09:15,355 --> 00:09:18,037 "Go ahead, tell me if it's safe." 225 00:09:18,037 --> 00:09:19,701 What I didn't know, in fact, 226 00:09:19,701 --> 00:09:22,843 was what rules in their behavior the meerkats follow 227 00:09:22,843 --> 00:09:25,768 for this change at the edge of the group to happen 228 00:09:25,768 --> 00:09:29,618 and if simple rules were sufficient to explain it. 229 00:09:29,618 --> 00:09:33,609 So I built a model, a model of simulated meerkats 230 00:09:33,609 --> 00:09:35,522 crossing a simulated road. 231 00:09:35,522 --> 00:09:37,394 It's a simplistic model. 232 00:09:37,394 --> 00:09:40,234 Moving meerkats are like random particles 233 00:09:40,234 --> 00:09:42,456 whose unique rule is one of alignment. 234 00:09:42,456 --> 00:09:44,862 They simply move together. 235 00:09:44,862 --> 00:09:48,046 When these particles get to the road, 236 00:09:48,046 --> 00:09:49,988 they sense some kind of obstacle, 237 00:09:49,988 --> 00:09:52,072 and they bounce against it. 238 00:09:52,072 --> 00:09:53,228 The only difference 239 00:09:53,228 --> 00:09:55,270 between the dominant female, here in red, 240 00:09:55,270 --> 00:09:56,755 and the other individuals, 241 00:09:56,755 --> 00:09:59,309 is that for her, the height of the obstacle, 242 00:09:59,309 --> 00:10:01,814 which is in fact the risk perceived from the road, 243 00:10:01,814 --> 00:10:03,763 is just slightly higher, 244 00:10:03,763 --> 00:10:05,424 and this tiny difference 245 00:10:05,424 --> 00:10:07,262 in the individual's rule of movement 246 00:10:07,262 --> 00:10:09,708 is sufficient to explain what we observe, 247 00:10:09,708 --> 00:10:12,268 that the dominant female 248 00:10:12,268 --> 00:10:13,702 leads her group to the road 249 00:10:13,702 --> 00:10:15,372 and then gives way to the others 250 00:10:15,372 --> 00:10:18,235 for them to cross first. 251 00:10:18,235 --> 00:10:21,886 George Box, who was an English statistician, 252 00:10:21,886 --> 00:10:24,848 once wrote, "All models are false, 253 00:10:24,848 --> 00:10:26,907 but some models are useful." 254 00:10:26,907 --> 00:10:30,104 And in fact, this model is obviously false, 255 00:10:30,104 --> 00:10:34,072 because in reality, meerkats are anything but random particles. 256 00:10:34,072 --> 00:10:35,709 But it's also useful, 257 00:10:35,709 --> 00:10:38,458 because it tells us that extreme simplicity 258 00:10:38,458 --> 00:10:41,816 in movement rules at the individual level 259 00:10:41,816 --> 00:10:44,167 can result in a great deal of complexity 260 00:10:44,167 --> 00:10:46,105 at the level of the group. 261 00:10:46,105 --> 00:10:50,161 So again, that's simplifying complexity. 262 00:10:50,161 --> 00:10:51,609 I would like to conclude 263 00:10:51,609 --> 00:10:54,426 on what this means for the whole species. 264 00:10:54,426 --> 00:10:56,090 When the dominant female 265 00:10:56,090 --> 00:10:57,656 gives way to a subordinate, 266 00:10:57,656 --> 00:10:59,773 it's not out of courtesy. 267 00:10:59,773 --> 00:11:01,280 In fact, the dominant female 268 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,799 is extremely important for the cohesion of the group. 269 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:07,311 If she dies on the road, the whole group is at risk. 270 00:11:07,311 --> 00:11:09,547 So this behavior of risk avoidance 271 00:11:09,547 --> 00:11:12,348 is a very old evolutionary response. 272 00:11:12,348 --> 00:11:16,217 These meerkats are replicating an evolved tactic 273 00:11:16,217 --> 00:11:18,450 that is thousands of generations old, 274 00:11:18,450 --> 00:11:20,864 and they're adapting it to a modern risk, 275 00:11:20,864 --> 00:11:24,189 in this case a road built by humans. 276 00:11:24,189 --> 00:11:26,584 They adapt very simple rules, 277 00:11:26,584 --> 00:11:28,873 and the resulting complex behavior 278 00:11:28,873 --> 00:11:31,829 allows them to resist human encroachment 279 00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:34,277 into their natural habitat. 280 00:11:34,277 --> 00:11:36,079 In the end, 281 00:11:36,079 --> 00:11:38,779 it may be bats which change their social structure 282 00:11:38,779 --> 00:11:41,163 in response to a population crash, 283 00:11:41,163 --> 00:11:42,562 or it may be meerkats 284 00:11:42,562 --> 00:11:45,764 who show a novel adaptation to a human road, 285 00:11:45,764 --> 00:11:48,449 or it may be another species. 286 00:11:48,449 --> 00:11:51,242 My message here -- and it's not a complicated one, 287 00:11:51,242 --> 00:11:54,006 but a simple one of wonder and hope -- 288 00:11:54,006 --> 00:11:57,099 my message here is that animals 289 00:11:57,099 --> 00:11:59,523 show extraordinary social complexity, 290 00:11:59,523 --> 00:12:01,964 and this allows them to adapt 291 00:12:01,964 --> 00:12:05,445 and respond to changes in their environment. 292 00:12:05,445 --> 00:12:08,213 In three words, in the animal kingdom, 293 00:12:08,213 --> 00:12:10,987 simplicity leads to complexity 294 00:12:10,987 --> 00:12:12,470 which leads to resilience. 295 00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:14,754 Thank you. 296 00:12:14,754 --> 00:12:21,434 (Applause) 297 00:12:30,694 --> 00:12:32,647 Dania Gerhardt: Thank you very much, Nicolas, 298 00:12:32,647 --> 00:12:35,926 for this great start. Little bit nervous? 299 00:12:35,926 --> 00:12:37,570 Nicolas Perony: I'm okay, thanks. 300 00:12:37,570 --> 00:12:40,030 DG: Okay, great. I'm sure a lot of people in the audience 301 00:12:40,030 --> 00:12:41,894 somehow tried to make associations 302 00:12:41,894 --> 00:12:43,718 between the animals you were talking about -- 303 00:12:43,718 --> 00:12:45,774 the bats, meerkats -- and humans. 304 00:12:45,774 --> 00:12:46,982 You brought some examples: 305 00:12:46,982 --> 00:12:48,717 The females are the social ones, 306 00:12:48,717 --> 00:12:50,430 the females are the dominant ones, 307 00:12:50,430 --> 00:12:52,103 I'm not sure who thinks how. 308 00:12:52,103 --> 00:12:54,998 But is it okay to do these associations? 309 00:12:54,998 --> 00:12:57,798 Are there stereotypes you can confirm in this regard 310 00:12:57,798 --> 00:13:01,071 that can be valid across all species? 311 00:13:01,071 --> 00:13:02,674 NP: Well, I would say there are also 312 00:13:02,674 --> 00:13:04,626 counter-examples to these stereotypes. 313 00:13:04,626 --> 00:13:07,766 For examples, in sea horses or in koalas, in fact, 314 00:13:07,766 --> 00:13:11,464 it is the males who take care of the young always. 315 00:13:11,464 --> 00:13:16,505 And the lesson is that it's often difficult, 316 00:13:16,505 --> 00:13:18,257 and sometimes even a bit dangerous, 317 00:13:18,257 --> 00:13:20,929 to draw parallels between humans and animals. 318 00:13:20,929 --> 00:13:23,035 So that's it. 319 00:13:23,035 --> 00:13:25,881 DG: Okay. Thank you very much for this great start. 320 00:13:25,881 --> 00:13:27,961 Thank you, Nicolas Perony.