0:00:08.200,0:00:11.200 Ok, so, it's time for the keynotes[br]and we are very honoured to have 0:00:11.300,0:00:14.700 Eben Moglen here as first keynote speaker 0:00:15.200,0:00:20.500 He is a professor of Law [br]and Legal History at Columbia University. 0:00:21.300,0:00:25.300 He is probably most known [br]for his involvement in the FSF 0:00:25.400,0:00:28.300 and for creating the Software Freedom Law Centre. 0:00:28.400,0:00:33.700 He was also heavily involved [br]in the creation of the GPL version 3 0:00:33.900,0:00:39.300 and many other things of course[br]and so he will give a talk here today about 0:00:39.400,0:00:44.300 Why political liberty depends [br]on software freedom more than ever. 0:00:44.500,0:00:47.400 Eben Moglen, thank you. 0:00:54.500,0:00:57.400 Thank you, good morning[br]it's a great pleasure to be here. 0:00:57.500,0:01:03.000 I wanna thank the organisers [br]for the miracle that FOSDEM is 0:01:03.500,0:01:05.400 You all know that only chaos 0:01:05.500,0:01:10.900 could create an organisation[br]of this quality and power 0:01:11.800,0:01:17.300 and it's an honour for me [br]to play a little bit of a role in it. 0:01:17.400,0:01:21.400 I know how eager you are [br]to deal with technical matters 0:01:21.500,0:01:29.100 and I'm sorry to start with politics [br]first thing in the morning, but it's urgent. 0:01:29.700,0:01:36.400 You've been watching it all around the world [br]the past several weeks haven't you? 0:01:36.500,0:01:40.400 It's about how politics actually works now 0:01:40.700,0:01:45.200 for people actually seeking freedom now 0:01:45.600,0:01:49.400 for people trying to make [br]change in their world now. 0:01:50.100,0:01:56.100 Software is what the 21st century is made of. 0:01:56.700,0:02:02.900 What steel was to the economy of the 20th century 0:02:03.100,0:02:08.000 what steel was to the power of the 20th century 0:02:08.100,0:02:14.700 what steel was to the politics [br]of the 20th century, software is now. 0:02:14.900,0:02:21.800 It's the crucial building block,[br]the component out of which everything else is made. 0:02:21.900,0:02:28.200 And when I speak of everything else[br]I mean, of course, freedom. 0:02:28.500,0:02:34.500 As well as tyranny, as well as business as usual 0:02:34.800,0:02:40.200 as well as spying on everybody for free all the time. 0:02:42.000,0:02:46.400 In other words, the very composition of social life 0:02:46.500,0:02:50.800 the way it works or doesn't work for us 0:02:50.900,0:02:54.800 the way it works or doesn't work for those who own 0:02:54.900,0:02:59.700 the way it works or doesn't work for those who oppress 0:02:59.800,0:03:04.400 all now depends on software. 0:03:06.300,0:03:11.600 At the other end of this hastening process 0:03:11.700,0:03:17.100 when we started our little conspiracy[br]you and me and everybody else 0:03:17.200,0:03:19.000 you remember how it works, right? 0:03:19.100,0:03:20.800 I mean it's a simple idea. 0:03:20.900,0:03:27.800 Make freedom, put freedom in everything,[br]turn freedom on, right? 0:03:27.900,0:03:33.400 That was how the conspiracy was designed[br]that's how the thing is supposed to work 0:03:33.700,0:03:38.100 We did pretty well with it[br]and about halfway through stage 1 0:03:38.200,0:03:45.000 my dear friend Larry Lessig [br]figured out what was going on for us 0:03:45.100,0:03:48.400 and he wrote his first [br]quite astonishing book "Code" 0:03:48.500,0:03:56.700 in which he said that code was going [br]to do the work of law in the 21st century. 0:03:56.800,0:04:00.700 That was a crucial idea [br]out of which much else got born 0:04:00.800,0:04:05.200 including creative commons [br]and a bunch of other useful things. 0:04:06.800,0:04:11.600 The really important point now is [br]that code does the work of law 0:04:11.700,0:04:18.600 and the work of the state and code does [br]the work of revolution against the state. 0:04:18.700,0:04:22.800 And code does all the work that the state does 0:04:22.900,0:04:28.300 trying to retain its power in revolutionary situations. 0:04:29.200,0:04:34.800 But code also organises the people in the street. 0:04:35.100,0:04:38.800 We're having enormous demonstration [br]around the world right now 0:04:38.900,0:04:42.400 of the power of code in both directions. 0:04:43.000,0:04:48.700 The newspapers in the United States [br]this past month have been full of the buzz 0:04:48.800,0:04:52.900 around the book called[br]"The Net Delusion" by Evgeny Morozov 0:04:53.000,0:05:02.800 A very interesting book taking a more pessimistic view[br]of the political nature of the changes in the net 0:05:03.000,0:05:06.500 Mr. Morozov who comes from Belarus 0:05:06.600,0:05:12.400 and therefore has a clear understanding [br]of the mechanism of 21st century despotism 0:05:12.900,0:05:17.600 sees the ways in which the institutions of the net 0:05:17.700,0:05:27.400 are increasingly being co-opted by the state [br]in an effort to limit control or eliminate freedom. 0:05:28.000,0:05:36.800 And his summary of half decade of [br]policy papers on that subject in his book 0:05:36.900,0:05:43.500 is a warning to the technological optimists,[br]at least he says it is 0:05:43.600,0:05:49.800 about the nature of the net delusion [br]that the net brings freedom. 0:05:50.100,0:05:57.700 I am, I guess, one of the technological optimists[br]because I do think the net brings freedom. 0:05:57.800,0:06:01.200 I don't think Mr. Morozov is wrong, however. 0:06:01.600,0:06:05.600 The wrong net brings tyranny [br]and the right net brings freedom. 0:06:05.700,0:06:10.400 This is a version of the reason why [br]I still have the buttons for distribution 0:06:10.500,0:06:13.700 that says "Stallman was right". 0:06:13.900,0:06:17.500 The right net brings freedom[br]and the wrong net brings tyranny 0:06:17.600,0:06:22.000 because it all depends on how the code works. 0:06:22.900,0:06:24.600 All right, so we all know that. 0:06:24.700,0:06:27.000 We've spent a lot of time making free software. 0:06:27.100,0:06:29.800 We've spent a lot of time [br]putting free software in everything 0:06:29.900,0:06:33.700 and we have tried to turn freedom on. 0:06:33.800,0:06:37.900 We have also joined forces with other elements 0:06:38.000,0:06:44.100 of the free culture world [br]that we helped to bring into existence. 0:06:44.300,0:06:55.400 I've known Jimmy Wales a long time [br]and Julian Assange, and that changes the world. 0:06:55.500,0:07:00.100 Wikipedia and Wikileaks [br]are two sides of the same coin. 0:07:00.200,0:07:05.000 They are the two sides of the same coin[br]the third side of which is FOSDEM. 0:07:05.100,0:07:10.700 It is the power of ordinary people [br]to organise, to change the world 0:07:10.800,0:07:13.800 without having to create hierarchy 0:07:13.900,0:07:17.700 and without having to recapitulate [br]the structures of power 0:07:17.800,0:07:22.800 that are being challenged [br]by the desire to make freedom. 0:07:24.900,0:07:29.200 Wikileaks was being treated [br]everywhere around the world 0:07:29.300,0:07:35.400 in a semi-criminal fashion at Christmas time 0:07:35.900,0:07:40.100 and then events in Tunisia made it [br]a little more complicated. 0:07:40.700,0:07:45.700 As it became clear that what was [br]being reported on around the world 0:07:45.800,0:07:52.700 as though it was primarily a conspiracy[br]to injure the dignity of the US State Department 0:07:52.800,0:07:56.000 or to embarrass the United States military 0:07:56.100,0:08:03.000 was actually, really, an attempt [br]to allow people to learn about their world. 0:08:03.900,0:08:11.400 To learn about how power really operates[br]and therefore to do something about it. 0:08:12.800,0:08:18.400 And what happened in Tunisia was, [br]I thought, an eloquent rebuttal 0:08:18.500,0:08:23.900 to the idea that the Wikileaks [br]and free culture and free software 0:08:24.000,0:08:35.000 was primarily engaged in destruction,[br]nihilism or I shrink from even employing 0:08:35.100,0:08:38.200 the word in this context, terrorism. 0:08:38.600,0:08:43.700 It was instead freedom [br]which is messy, complicated, 0:08:43.800,0:08:49.800 potentially damaging in the short term[br]but salvational in the long term. 0:08:49.900,0:08:53.000 The medicine for the human soul. 0:08:53.100,0:08:58.700 It's hard, I know, because most [br]of the time when we're coding 0:08:58.800,0:09:01.700 it doesn't feel like [br]we're doing anything 0:09:01.800,0:09:05.200 that the human soul is directly [br]very much involved in 0:09:05.600,0:09:08.800 to take with full seriousness 0:09:08.900,0:09:15.900 the political and spiritual meaning[br]of free software at the present hour. 0:09:17.800,0:09:23.000 But there are a lot of Egyptians [br]whose freedom now depends 0:09:23.100,0:09:27.300 upon their ability [br]to communicate with one another 0:09:27.400,0:09:32.300 through a database owned [br]for-profit by a guy in California 0:09:32.400,0:09:40.400 who obeys orders from governments, [br]who send orders to disclose to Facebook. 0:09:41.600,0:09:47.600 We are watching in real time [br]the evolution of the kinds of politics 0:09:47.700,0:09:54.000 of liberation and freedom [br]in the 21st century that code can make 0:09:54.100,0:09:59.600 and we are watching in real time [br]the discovery of the vulnerabilities 0:09:59.700,0:10:05.000 that arise from the bad engineering [br]of the current system. 0:10:06.300,0:10:14.500 Social networking, that is the ability [br]to use free-form methods of communication 0:10:14.700,0:10:22.000 from many to many, now, [br]in an instantaneous fashion 0:10:22.100,0:10:26.700 changes the balance of power in society. 0:10:26.900,0:10:33.000 Away from highly organised [br]vehicles of state control 0:10:33.100,0:10:37.400 towards people in their own lives. 0:10:38.500,0:10:43.800 What has happened in Iran, in Egypt, in Tunisia 0:10:43.900,0:10:49.200 and what will happen in other [br]societies over the next few years 0:10:49.300,0:10:56.600 demonstrates the enormous political [br]and social importance of social networking. 0:10:56.800,0:11:01.300 But everything we know [br]about technology tells us 0:11:01.400,0:11:05.000 that the current forms [br]of social network communication 0:11:05.100,0:11:14.100 despite their enormous current value for [br]politics are also intensely dangerous to use. 0:11:14.200,0:11:16.800 They are too centralised 0:11:16.900,0:11:22.400 They are too vulnerable [br]to state retaliation and control. 0:11:22.500,0:11:25.400 And the design of their technology 0:11:25.500,0:11:30.600 like the design of almost [br]all unfree software technology 0:11:30.700,0:11:35.700 is motivated more by [br]business interests seeking profit 0:11:35.800,0:11:40.100 than by technological interests seeking freedom. 0:11:40.200,0:11:43.600 As a result of which, we are watching 0:11:43.700,0:11:46.800 political movements of enormous value 0:11:46.900,0:11:51.800 capable of transforming [br]the lives of hundreds of millions of people 0:11:51.900,0:12:00.100 resting on a fragile basis[br]like for example the courage of Mr. Zuckerberg 0:12:00.200,0:12:05.000 or the willingness of Google to resist the state 0:12:05.100,0:12:09.000 where the state is a powerful business partner 0:12:09.100,0:12:17.200 and a party Google cannot afford to insult. 0:12:18.200,0:12:23.000 We are living in a world [br]in which real-time information 0:12:23.100,0:12:27.800 crucial to people in the street[br]seeking to build their freedom 0:12:27.900,0:12:33.600 depends on a commercial [br]micro-blogging service in northern California 0:12:33.700,0:12:39.900 which must turn a profit [br]in order to justify its existence 0:12:40.000,0:12:42.800 to the people who design its technology 0:12:42.900,0:12:49.400 and which we know is capable [br]of deciding overnight all by itself 0:12:49.500,0:12:54.800 to donate the entire history [br]of everything, everybody said through it 0:12:54.900,0:12:57.200 to the library of Congress. 0:12:57.300,0:13:00.500 Which means, I suppose, that in some other place 0:13:00.600,0:13:04.300 they could make a different style of donation. 0:13:06.300,0:13:14.700 We need to fix this. We need to fix it quickly. 0:13:14.800,0:13:23.600 We are now behind the curve of the movements [br]for freedom that depend on code. 0:13:23.800,0:13:29.000 And every day that we don't fix the problems created[br]by the use of insecure, over-centralised 0:13:29.100,0:13:35.200 overcapitalised social network media [br]to do the politics of freedom 0:13:35.300,0:13:41.200 the real politics of freedom [br]in the street, where the tanks are. 0:13:41.800,0:13:47.800 The more we don't fix this, [br]the more we are becoming part of the system 0:13:47.900,0:13:52.000 which will bring about a tragedy soon. 0:13:53.200,0:13:58.000 What has happened in Egypt [br]is enormously inspiring. 0:13:59.000,0:14:05.000 But the Egyptian state was late [br]to the attempt to control the net 0:14:05.100,0:14:13.100 and not ready to be [br]as remorseless as it could have been. 0:14:14.100,0:14:23.100 It is not hard when everybody's just in one [br]big database controlled by Mr. Zuckerberg 0:14:23.200,0:14:32.800 to decapitate a revolution by sending an order[br]to Mr. Zuckerberg that he cannot afford to refuse. 0:14:35.400,0:14:45.600 We need to think deeply and rapidly [br]and to good technological effect 0:14:45.800,0:14:53.000 about the consequences of what [br]we have built and what we haven't built yet. 0:14:53.800,0:14:57.700 I pointed a couple of times [br]already to the reason why 0:14:57.800,0:15:02.000 centralised social networking [br]and data distribution services 0:15:02.100,0:15:06.000 should be replaced by federated services. 0:15:06.100,0:15:09.400 I was talking about that intensively last year 0:15:09.500,0:15:14.300 before this recent round [br]of demonstrations in the street 0:15:14.400,0:15:17.400 of the importance of the whole thing began. 0:15:17.500,0:15:21.800 And I want to come back [br]to the projects I have been advocating. 0:15:21.900,0:15:27.800 But let me just say here, [br]again, from this other perspective 0:15:27.900,0:15:34.900 that the overcentralisation of network services[br]is a crucial political vulnerability. 0:15:35.000,0:15:38.700 Friends of ours, people seeking freedom 0:15:38.800,0:15:46.600 are going to get arrested, beaten, tortured [br]and eventually killed somewhere on earth. 0:15:46.800,0:15:52.800 Because they're depending for their political [br]survival in their movements for freedom 0:15:52.900,0:15:59.000 on technology we know, is built to sell them out. 0:16:03.000,0:16:07.200 If we care about freedom as much as we do 0:16:07.300,0:16:10.400 and if we are as bright [br]with technology as we are 0:16:10.500,0:16:14.500 we have to address that problem. [br]We are actually running out of time. 0:16:14.600,0:16:18.700 Because people whose movements we care deeply about 0:16:18.800,0:16:25.100 are already out there in harm's way [br]using stuff that can hurt them. 0:16:26.800,0:16:36.100 I don't want anybody taking life or death risks[br]to make freedom somewhere carrying an iPhone. 0:16:36.800,0:16:39.800 Because I know what that iPhone can be doing to him 0:16:39.900,0:16:46.100 without our having any way to control it, [br]stop it, help it or even know what's going on. 0:16:47.300,0:16:53.200 We need to think infrastructurally[br]about what we mean to freedom now. 0:16:53.800,0:16:59.100 And we need to learn the lessons[br]of what we see happening around us in real time. 0:16:59.800,0:17:04.100 One thing that the Egyptian situation showed us 0:17:04.500,0:17:08.700 as we probably knew after the Iranian situation 0:17:08.800,0:17:15.500 when we watched the forces of the Iranian state[br]buy the telecommunications carriers 0:17:15.600,0:17:21.600 as we learnt when the Egyptians [br]begin to lean on Vodafone last week. 0:17:21.700,0:17:26.700 We learn again why [br]closed networks are so harmful to us. 0:17:26.900,0:17:31.900 Why the ability to build a kill switch on the infrastructure 0:17:32.000,0:17:36.200 by pressuring the for-profit communications carriers 0:17:36.300,0:17:41.200 who must have a way of life [br]with government in order to survive 0:17:41.300,0:17:48.500 can harm our people seeking freedom [br]using technology we understand well. 0:17:48.800,0:17:56.400 Now, what can we do to help freedom [br]under circumstances where the state 0:17:56.500,0:18:01.500 has decided to try [br]to clamp the network infrastructure? 0:18:01.800,0:18:05.000 Well, we can go back to mesh networking. 0:18:05.200,0:18:08.500 We've got to go back to mesh networking. 0:18:08.700,0:18:12.800 We've got to understand how we can provide people 0:18:12.900,0:18:19.300 using the ordinary devices already available [br]to them or cheaply available to them 0:18:19.400,0:18:25.600 to build networking[br]that resists centralised control. 0:18:25.900,0:18:30.700 Mesh networking in densely populated urban environments 0:18:30.800,0:18:35.000 is capable of sustaining the kind of social action 0:18:35.100,0:18:40.500 we saw in Cairo and in Alexandria this week. 0:18:40.900,0:18:47.100 Even without the centralised network services providers 0:18:47.200,0:18:54.700 if people have wireless routers that mesh up[br]in their apartments, in their work places 0:18:54.800,0:19:01.600 in the places of public resort around them[br]they can continue to communicate 0:19:01.700,0:19:07.000 despite attempts in central terms to shut them down. 0:19:07.700,0:19:11.900 We need to go back to ensuring people 0:19:12.000,0:19:17.000 secure end-to-end communications[br]over those local meshes. 0:19:18.000,0:19:22.200 We need to provide survivable conditions 0:19:22.300,0:19:27.400 for the kinds of communications[br]that people now depend upon 0:19:27.500,0:19:32.100 outside the context of [br]centralised networking environments 0:19:32.200,0:19:38.000 that can be used to surveil, [br]control, arrest or shut them down. 0:19:39.900,0:19:46.500 Can we do this? Sure. Are we gonna do this? 0:19:47.800,0:19:54.200 If we don't, the great social promise [br]of the free software movement 0:19:54.300,0:20:00.100 that free software can lead [br]to free society will begin to be broken. 0:20:00.200,0:20:08.100 Force will intervene somewhere soon[br]and a demonstration will be offered to humanity 0:20:08.200,0:20:12.000 that even with all that networking technology 0:20:12.100,0:20:16.700 and all those young people seeking [br]to build new lives for themselves 0:20:16.800,0:20:19.700 the state still wins. 0:20:19.900,0:20:23.200 This must not happen. 0:20:25.400,0:20:32.800 If you look at that map of the globe at night[br]the one where all the lights on 0:20:32.900,0:20:38.500 and imagine next time you look at it[br]that you're looking instead at a network graph 0:20:38.700,0:20:42.800 instead of an electrical infrastructure graph 0:20:42.900,0:20:48.700 you'll feel like a kind of pulsing [br]coming out of the North American continent 0:20:48.800,0:20:54.100 where all the world's data mining is being done. 0:20:56.300,0:20:59.600 Think of it that way, right? 0:20:59.900,0:21:06.500 North America is becoming the heart [br]of the global data mining industry 0:21:06.600,0:21:12.800 Its job is becoming knowing everything[br]about everybody, everywhere. 0:21:13.200,0:21:19.200 When Dwight Eisenhower [br]was leaving the presidency in 1960 0:21:19.300,0:21:23.700 he made a famous farewell speech to the American people 0:21:23.800,0:21:30.500 in which he warned them against [br]the power of the military industrial complex 0:21:30.900,0:21:35.100 a phrase that became so common place in discussion 0:21:35.200,0:21:39.100 that people stopped thinking seriously about what it meant. 0:21:40.700,0:21:47.900 The general who had run the largest [br]military activity of the 20th century 0:21:48.000,0:21:50.900 the invasion of Europe. 0:21:51.000,0:21:58.300 The general who had become the president [br]of America at the height of the cold war 0:21:58.400,0:22:04.500 was warning Americans about [br]the permanent changes to their society 0:22:04.600,0:22:07.000 that would result from the interaction 0:22:07.100,0:22:13.000 of industrial capitalism with American military might. 0:22:13.200,0:22:17.800 And since the time of that speech, as you all know, 0:22:17.900,0:22:25.000 the United States has spent on defence [br]more than the rest of the world combined. 0:22:28.100,0:22:37.000 Now, in the 21st century, which we can define [br]as after the latter part of September 2001 0:22:37.900,0:22:42.600 the United States began to build a new thing. 0:22:42.800,0:22:47.000 A surveillance industrial military complex. 0:22:47.900,0:22:56.000 The Washington Post produced the most important piece[br]of public journalism in the United States last year 0:22:56.100,0:23:00.800 a series available to you online called 'Top Secret America' 0:23:00.900,0:23:08.200 in which the Washington Post not only wrote [br]eight very useful, lengthy, analytic stories 0:23:08.300,0:23:12.800 about the classified sector [br]of American industrial life 0:23:12.900,0:23:16.100 built around surveillance and data processing. 0:23:16.200,0:23:22.100 The Post produced an enormous database [br]which is publicly available to everyone 0:23:22.200,0:23:26.900 through the newspaper [br]of all the classified contractors 0:23:27.000,0:23:29.800 available to them in public record 0:23:29.900,0:23:32.800 what they do for the government, what they're paid 0:23:32.900,0:23:35.400 and what can be known about them. 0:23:35.500,0:23:39.600 A database which can be used [br]to create all sorts of journalism 0:23:39.700,0:23:42.700 beyond what the Post published itself. 0:23:42.800,0:23:48.100 I would encourage everybody [br]to take a look at 'Top Secret America'. 0:23:48.200,0:23:53.400 What it will show you is how many goggles there are 0:23:53.500,0:23:57.100 under the direct control of the United States government 0:23:57.200,0:24:01.500 as well as how many goggles there are [br]under the control of Google. 0:24:01.600,0:24:06.400 In other words the vast outspreading web 0:24:06.500,0:24:11.200 which joins the traditional [br]post second world war US listening 0:24:11.300,0:24:16.100 to everything everywhere [br]on earth outside the United States 0:24:16.700,0:24:21.900 to the newly available listening [br]to things inside the United States 0:24:22.000,0:24:27.600 that used to be against the law [br]in my country as I knew its law 0:24:27.900,0:24:32.700 to all the data now available [br]in all the commercial collection systems 0:24:32.900,0:24:36.700 which includes everything [br]you type into search boxes about 0:24:36.800,0:24:44.000 what you believe, wish, hope, fear or doubt[br]as well as every travel reservation you make 0:24:44.100,0:24:49.000 and every piece of tracking data [br]coming off your friendly smartphone. 0:24:55.200,0:25:00.000 When governments talk about [br]the future of the net these days 0:25:00.800,0:25:06.000 I have on decent authority from [br]government officials in several countries. 0:25:06.700,0:25:09.900 When governments talk about [br]the future of the net these days 0:25:10.000,0:25:14.100 they talk almost entirely in terms of cyberwar. 0:25:14.600,0:25:19.300 A field in which I've never had much interest [br]and which has a jargon all its own 0:25:19.400,0:25:23.700 but some current lessons [br]from inter-governmental discussions 0:25:23.800,0:25:28.000 about cyberwar are probably valuable to us here. 0:25:31.100,0:25:35.500 The three most powerful collections of states on earth 0:25:35.600,0:25:40.300 the United States of America, the European Union [br]and the People's Republic of China 0:25:40.400,0:25:46.600 discuss cyberwar at a fairly high[br]inter-governmental level fairly regularly. 0:25:47.100,0:25:55.100 Some of the people around [br]that table have disagreements of policy 0:25:55.200,0:25:58.300 but there is a broad area of consensus. 0:25:58.400,0:26:02.500 In the world of cyberwar [br]they talk about exfiltration. 0:26:02.600,0:26:10.600 We would call that spying, they mean exfiltrating [br]our data off our networks into their pockets. 0:26:11.600,0:26:17.200 Exfiltration, I am told by government [br]officials here and there and everywhere 0:26:17.300,0:26:22.700 exfiltration is broadly considered by all [br]the governments to be a free fire zone. 0:26:22.800,0:26:25.900 Everybody may listen to everything everywhere all the time 0:26:26.000,0:26:28.500 we don't believe in any governmental limits 0:26:28.600,0:26:31.400 and the reason is every government wants to listen 0:26:31.500,0:26:35.400 and no government believes listening can be prevented. 0:26:35.500,0:26:38.400 On that latter point, I think they're too pessimistic 0:26:38.500,0:26:41.500 but let's grant them that [br]they've spent a lot of money trying 0:26:41.600,0:26:43.000 and they think they know. 0:26:43.100,0:26:46.000 Where the disagreements currently exist 0:26:46.100,0:26:49.500 I am told by the government officials I talked to 0:26:49.600,0:26:54.300 concerns not exfiltration, [br]but what they call network disruption. 0:26:54.400,0:26:57.700 By which they mean destroying freedom. 0:26:58.200,0:27:07.100 The basic attitude here [br]is of a two parties in balanced speech. 0:27:07.200,0:27:11.900 One side in that conversation [br]says what we want is clear rules. 0:27:12.000,0:27:14.100 We want to know what we are allowed to attack, 0:27:14.200,0:27:19.700 what we have to defend and what we do with [br]the things that are neither friendly nor enemy. 0:27:19.800,0:27:25.600 The other side in that conversation [br]says we recognise no distinctions. 0:27:25.800,0:27:28.400 Anywhere on the net where there is a threat 0:27:28.500,0:27:31.800 to our national security[br]or our national interests, 0:27:31.900,0:27:35.100 we claim the right to disrupt or destroy that threat 0:27:35.200,0:27:38.700 regardless of its geographical location. 0:27:39.000,0:27:42.400 I need not to characterise [br]for you which among the governments 0:27:42.500,0:27:45.100 the United States of America, the European Union 0:27:45.200,0:27:48.900 or the People's Republic of China take those different positions. 0:27:49.000,0:27:52.800 And I should say that my guess [br]is that within all those governments 0:27:52.900,0:27:55.200 there are differences of opinion on those points 0:27:55.300,0:27:58.700 dominant factions and less dominant factions 0:27:59.300,0:28:02.400 but all parties are increasingly aware 0:28:02.500,0:28:06.500 that in North America is where the data mining is. 0:28:06.600,0:28:11.400 And that's either a benefit, a dubiousness or a problem 0:28:11.500,0:28:16.400 depending upon which state [br]or collection of states you represent. 0:28:16.600,0:28:21.300 European data protection law has done this much. 0:28:21.700,0:28:28.700 It has put your personal data almost exclusively [br]in North America where it is uncontrolled. 0:28:29.000,0:28:33.100 To that extent, European legislation succeded. 0:28:35.500,0:28:40.300 The data mining industries [br]are concentrated outside the European Union 0:28:40.400,0:28:43.400 largely for reasons of legal policy. 0:28:43.500,0:28:48.900 They operate as any enterprise [br]tends to operate in the part of the world 0:28:49.000,0:28:52.700 where there is least control over their behaviour. 0:28:53.200,0:28:57.500 There is no prospect that [br]the North American governments 0:28:57.600,0:29:00.500 particularly the government of the United States 0:29:00.600,0:29:06.300 whose national security policy now depends [br]on listening and data mining everything 0:29:06.400,0:29:09.300 are going to change that for you. 0:29:09.400,0:29:13.900 No possibility. No time soon. 0:29:17.900,0:29:21.800 When he was a candidate for president, at the beginning 0:29:21.900,0:29:25.900 in the Democratic primaries, Barack Obama was in favour 0:29:26.000,0:29:30.900 of not immunising American telecommunications giants 0:29:31.000,0:29:35.800 for participation in spying domestically [br]inside the United States 0:29:35.900,0:29:38.600 without direct public legal authorisation. 0:29:38.700,0:29:42.100 By the time he was a candidate in the general election 0:29:42.200,0:29:46.300 he was no longer in favour of preventing immunisation 0:29:46.400,0:29:49.700 Indeed he, as a Senator from Illinois 0:29:49.800,0:29:56.800 did not fillibuster the legislation [br]immunising the telecomms giants and it went through. 0:29:56.900,0:30:00.400 As you are aware the Obama administration's policies 0:30:00.500,0:30:04.800 with respect to data mining, [br]surveillance and domestic security in the net 0:30:04.900,0:30:08.700 are hardly different from the predecessor administrations' 0:30:08.800,0:30:14.800 except where they are more [br]aggressive about government control. 0:30:16.700,0:30:23.100 We can't depend upon the pro-freedom bias 0:30:23.200,0:30:29.800 in the listening to everybody, everywhere [br]about everything now going on. 0:30:31.400,0:30:35.800 Profit motive will not produce privacy 0:30:35.900,0:30:41.700 let alone will it produce robust defence [br]for freedom in the street. 0:30:44.500,0:30:49.700 If we are going to build systems [br]of communication for future politics 0:30:49.800,0:30:53.700 we're going to have to build them under the assumption 0:30:53.800,0:30:59.400 that the network is not only untrusted, but untrustworthy. 0:30:59.500,0:31:07.800 And we're going to have to build under [br]the assumption that centralised services can kill you. 0:31:08.200,0:31:12.400 We can't fool around about this. 0:31:12.500,0:31:20.300 We can't let Facebook dance up and down [br]about their privacy policy. That's ludicrous. 0:31:20.400,0:31:25.100 We have to replace the things that create vulnerability 0:31:25.200,0:31:29.700 and lure our colleagues around the world into using them 0:31:29.800,0:31:32.600 to make freedom only to discover 0:31:32.700,0:31:37.700 that the promise is easily broken by a kill switch. 0:31:40.000,0:31:46.000 Fortunately we actually do know how [br]to engineer ourselves out of this situation. 0:31:47.000,0:31:55.800 Cheap, small, low power plug servers [br]are the form factor we need. 0:31:55.900,0:31:58.300 And they exist everywhere now 0:31:58.400,0:32:02.900 and they will get very cheap very quick very soon. 0:32:03.800,0:32:07.700 A small device the size of a cell phone charger 0:32:07.800,0:32:13.100 running a low power chip with a wireless NIC or two 0:32:13.200,0:32:17.000 and some other available ports 0:32:17.100,0:32:21.900 and some very sweet free software of our own 0:32:22.000,0:32:28.300 is a practical device for creating [br]significant personal privacy 0:32:28.400,0:32:31.300 and freedom based communications. 0:32:31.400,0:32:35.300 Think what it needs to have in it. 0:32:35.500,0:32:41.700 Mesh networking, we are not quite there, but we should be. 0:32:41.900,0:32:47.300 OpenBTS, asterisk, yeah, [br]we could make telephone systems 0:32:47.400,0:32:52.000 that are self-constructing [br]out of parts that cost next to nothing. 0:32:54.900,0:32:59.100 Federated, rather than centralised, micro-blogging 0:32:59.900,0:33:04.500 social networking, photo exchange, 0:33:04.900,0:33:11.300 anonymous publication platforms[br]based around cloudy web servers. 0:33:12.200,0:33:14.800 We can do all of that. 0:33:15.000,0:33:21.400 Your data at home in your house [br]where they have to come and get it 0:33:21.500,0:33:24.700 facing whatever the legal restrictions are, 0:33:24.800,0:33:27.700 if any, in your society about 0:33:27.800,0:33:31.000 what goes on inside the precincts of the home. 0:33:31.500,0:33:36.200 Encrypted email, just all the time 0:33:36.300,0:33:40.800 perimeter defence for all those wonky Windows computers 0:33:40.900,0:33:46.600 and other bad devices that roll over any time [br]they're pushed at by a twelve year old 0:33:49.800,0:33:54.000 Proxy services for climbing over national firewalls. 0:33:54.900,0:33:59.300 Smart tunnelling to get around anti-neutrality activity 0:33:59.400,0:34:03.600 by upstream ISPs and other network providers. 0:34:03.800,0:34:12.600 All of that can be easily done on top of stuff [br]we already make and use all the time. 0:34:12.700,0:34:19.800 We have general purpose distributions of stacks[br]more than robust enough for all of this 0:34:19.900,0:34:25.000 and a little bit of application layer[br]work to do on the top. 0:34:26.900,0:34:34.100 Yesterday in the United States [br]we formed the Freedom Box Foundation 0:34:34.200,0:34:41.100 which I plan to use as the temporary [br]or long term as the case may be 0:34:41.200,0:34:46.300 organisational headquarters [br]for work making free software 0:34:46.400,0:34:50.400 to run on small format server boxes 0:34:50.500,0:34:55.600 free hardware wherever possible[br]unfree hardware where we must 0:34:55.700,0:35:01.400 in order to make available [br]around the world at low prices 0:35:01.500,0:35:05.900 appliances human beings [br]will like interacting with 0:35:06.000,0:35:12.000 that produce privacy [br]and help to secure robust freedom. 0:35:22.800,0:35:31.100 We can make such objects cheaper [br]than the chargers for smart phones. 0:35:31.200,0:35:38.100 We can give people something [br]that they can buy at very low cost 0:35:38.200,0:35:42.700 that will go in their houses [br]that will run free software 0:35:42.800,0:35:48.700 to provide them services that make [br]life better on the ordinary days 0:35:48.900,0:35:53.600 and really come into their own [br]on those not so ordinary days 0:35:53.700,0:35:58.000 when we are out in the street [br]making freedom thank you for calling. 0:36:02.900,0:36:08.800 A Belarussian theatre troupe[br]that got arrested and heavily beaten on 0:36:08.900,0:36:14.400 after the so called elections in Minsk this winter 0:36:14.500,0:36:20.200 exfiltrated itself to New York city in January 0:36:20.300,0:36:25.200 did some performances of [br]Tom Stoppard and gave some interviews 0:36:25.300,0:36:28.700 I'm sorry of Harold Pinter and gave some interviews 0:36:29.100,0:36:35.600 One of the Belarussian actors [br]who was part of that troupe 0:36:35.700,0:36:38.100 said in an interview to New York Times 0:36:38.200,0:36:44.000 the Belarussian KGB is the most [br]honest organisation on earth. 0:36:45.000,0:36:52.100 After the Soviet Union fell apart[br]they saw no need to change anything they did 0:36:52.200,0:36:56.600 so they saw no need to change their name either. 0:36:57.900,0:37:02.800 And I thought that was a really quite useful comment. 0:37:04.400,0:37:09.000 We need to keep in mind that they are [br]exactly the same people they always were 0:37:09.100,0:37:14.800 whether they're in Cairo or Moscow [br]or Belarus or Los Angeles or Jakarta 0:37:14.900,0:37:16.300 or anywhere else on earth. 0:37:16.400,0:37:19.500 They're exactly the same people they always were. 0:37:19.600,0:37:23.500 So are we exactly the same people we always were too. 0:37:23.600,0:37:28.500 We set out a generation ago to make [br]freedom and we're still doing it. 0:37:28.700,0:37:31.800 But we have to pick up the pace now. 0:37:31.900,0:37:34.900 We have to get more urgent now. 0:37:35.000,0:37:40.900 We have to aim our engineering [br]more directly at politics now. 0:37:41.900,0:37:47.700 Because we have friends in the street [br]trying to create human freedom. 0:37:47.800,0:37:52.000 And if we don't help them they'll get hurt. 0:37:52.700,0:38:02.000 We rise to challenges, this is one.[br]We've got to do it. Thank you very much. 0:38:29.100,0:38:35.000 Thank you very much and I think [br]there is enough time for a few questions 0:38:35.100,0:38:38.000 so please raise your hand if you want to 0:39:02.200,0:39:07.200 The question was what does complete [br]decentralisation mean for identity 0:39:07.300,0:39:13.300 because the state, you may believe who you are[br]but the state gives you a passport 0:39:13.400,0:39:16.800 or some other legal document[br]that allows you to identify yourself. 0:39:16.900,0:39:22.500 So in complete decentralisation [br]how do you identify yourself on that network? 0:39:22.900,0:39:27.100 I doubt that complete decentralisation [br]is the outcome of anything 0:39:27.200,0:39:32.000 but let me tell you a story which [br]may help to explain how I feel about this. 0:39:32.100,0:39:39.100 We need to go back now by 16 years [br]to a time when there was a program called PGP 0:39:39.200,0:39:43.200 and there was a government in the United States [br]that was trying to eradicate it. 0:39:43.300,0:39:49.300 I know this will seem like ancient history [br]to many people, but it's my life so it doesn't to me. 0:39:49.900,0:39:55.700 We were having a debate at Harvard [br]Law School in January of 1995 0:39:55.800,0:40:02.500 two on two about PGP and the criminal [br]investigation and the future of secrecy. 0:40:02.600,0:40:06.900 The debators on my side [br]were me and Danny Whitesner 0:40:07.000,0:40:09.900 then at the Electronic Privacy Information Center 0:40:10.000,0:40:14.800 later at the W3C and now [br]in the United States Department of Commerce. 0:40:14.900,0:40:18.900 And on the other side was the then[br]Deputy Attorney General of the United States 0:40:19.000,0:40:23.500 and a former General Counsel[br]of the National Security Agency. 0:40:23.600,0:40:28.200 We debated PGP and then encryption [br]and the clipper chip and various other, 0:40:28.300,0:40:30.800 now long dead, subjects for a couple of hours 0:40:30.900,0:40:34.500 and then we were all on an offered [br]little dinner at the Harvard faculty club. 0:40:34.600,0:40:37.200 On the way across the Harvard campus 0:40:37.300,0:40:39.900 the Deputy Attorney General[br]of the United States said to me 0:40:40.000,0:40:43.100 Eben, on the basis of your [br]public statements this afternoon 0:40:43.200,0:40:47.800 I have enough to order the interception [br]of your telephone conversations. 0:40:48.800,0:40:51.800 She thought that was a joke. 0:40:52.900,0:40:57.200 And back in 1995 you could sort of [br]get away with thinking it was a joke 0:40:57.300,0:41:01.700 as the Deputy Attorney General of the United States [br]because it was so clearly against the law. 0:41:02.000,0:41:06.200 So I smiled and we went off, we had our dinner 0:41:06.300,0:41:11.100 and after the plates were cleared and the walnuts[br]and the port had been strewn about 0:41:11.200,0:41:15.300 this former General Counsel [br]to the National Security Agency 0:41:15.400,0:41:18.900 I'm concealing names to protect [br]the not so innocent here 0:41:19.000,0:41:22.800 this former NSA lawyer,[br]he looked around the table calmly 0:41:22.900,0:41:25.800 and with that sort of plummy [br]through the port kind of look 0:41:25.900,0:41:31.100 and he said ok we'll let our head down[br]we agree we're not gonna prosecute your client 0:41:31.200,0:41:34.900 PGP will happen. We've fought [br]a long delaying action 0:41:35.000,0:41:39.500 against public key encryption[br]but it's coming to an end now. 0:41:39.600,0:41:45.500 And then he looked around the table and he said[br]but nobody here cares about anonymity, do they? 0:41:45.600,0:41:48.200 And a cold chill went up my spine 0:41:48.300,0:41:51.600 because I knew what [br]the next 15 years were gonna be about. 0:41:51.700,0:41:55.700 So I would like to turn around [br]the thing you said to say 0:41:55.800,0:42:00.700 what we're really talking about is whether [br]there's gonna be any preservation of anonymity at all. 0:42:01.000,0:42:05.700 Where power on the other side [br]made its peace in the mid 1990s 0:42:05.800,0:42:08.600 was with the idea that [br]there would be strong encryption 0:42:08.700,0:42:11.300 and e-commerce but there would be no anomymity. 0:42:11.400,0:42:15.000 And in the course of the last decade [br]they picked up a strong alliance 0:42:15.100,0:42:17.400 with the global entertainment industries 0:42:17.500,0:42:20.300 the things that now call [br]themselves content companies 0:42:20.400,0:42:22.400 which are also adverse to anonymity, right? 0:42:22.500,0:42:25.500 cause they wanna know what you read [br]and listen to and watch every single time 0:42:25.600,0:42:29.300 so that you can increase [br]their shareholders' wealth for them. 0:42:29.500,0:42:32.800 The real problem of identity [br]isn't the problem of 0:42:32.900,0:42:36.700 are we gonna be decentralised[br]past the point when we have identity 0:42:36.800,0:42:39.900 we are not going to do that. [br]We are not going to be able to do that. 0:42:40.000,0:42:43.900 The real problem of identity is [br]are we gonna have any of our own? 0:42:44.000,0:42:48.800 or are we gonna be the data cloud [br]that everybody else is keeping about us 0:42:48.900,0:42:54.900 which contains where we are, what we do, what we think[br]what we read, what we eat and everything else too 0:42:55.000,0:42:57.500 as long as you send a subpoena 0:42:57.600,0:43:01.900 to Mr. Zuckerberg who has the one big database [br]in which you live your entire life. 0:43:02.100,0:43:07.800 I understand the idea that [br]we might be thought of or satirically 0:43:07.900,0:43:11.000 or even pointedly claim to be 0:43:11.100,0:43:16.200 trying too radically decentralise [br]to the point in which identity gets lost. 0:43:16.300,0:43:19.800 But if you find yourself [br]in an argument where people telling you 0:43:19.900,0:43:23.900 you are trying to anarchise so far that [br]there won't be any name in the passport anymore 0:43:24.000,0:43:28.300 you can reassure them that meat-space [br]will stay pretty much the way it is right now. 0:43:28.400,0:43:33.300 We just want fewer people[br]ripping fingernails off in meat-space. 0:43:33.400,0:43:38.800 Which is why we are busy building [br]Freedom Boxes and helping people use them. 0:43:38.900,0:43:43.800 Thank you very much, the passport will [br]remain pretty much the way it is right now 0:43:43.900,0:43:49.400 with the RFID chip in it and the fingerprints [br]and the retinal scan and everything. 0:43:49.500,0:43:52.400 I'm not worried that we are [br]going to go too far friends. 0:43:52.500,0:43:56.000 It's the other folks who went [br]way too far and our job's to get back home. 0:44:06.000,0:44:08.700 Hello Eben, I'm here. 0:44:13.000,0:44:15.100 Jérémie from La Quadrature du Net 0:44:15.400,0:44:19.500 First of all I want to thank you [br]and I will never thank you enough 0:44:19.600,0:44:23.100 for how inspiring you are for everyone of us 0:44:29.100,0:44:34.700 By thanking you for inspiring us [br]under an engineering perspective 0:44:34.800,0:44:40.100 as I am both an engineering geek [br]and a political activist by what I do. 0:44:40.200,0:44:46.500 I wanted to stress that the ACTA,[br]the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement 0:44:46.600,0:44:52.600 that deeply concern strengthening [br]of DRMs and the legal protection 0:44:52.700,0:44:56.600 and also turns every internet service provider 0:44:56.700,0:45:00.800 every internet intermediate[br]into private copyright police 0:45:00.900,0:45:06.800 with deep consequence on our freedom of speech,[br]our privacy, on right to a fair trial and so on. 0:45:07.000,0:45:11.800 The ACTA will be coming to the [br]European Parliament around next summer 0:45:11.900,0:45:18.100 maybe before maybe after and it will be [br]our ultimate chance to defeat the thing. 0:45:18.200,0:45:21.600 We won in the European Parliament before. 0:45:21.700,0:45:27.600 This is a battle we can win [br]and everybody here can participate into it 0:45:27.700,0:45:29.400 and I wanted to ask you Eben 0:45:29.500,0:45:35.400 Are those legislative fights worth fighting? [br]Do we still have a chance? 0:45:35.500,0:45:38.400 and especially on the front of the net neutrality, 0:45:38.500,0:45:42.800 What are your insights? What do you think? [br]Can we still win today? 0:45:42.900,0:45:49.400 No European citizen should need any [br]introduction to Jérémie Zimmermann, right? 0:45:49.500,0:45:53.800 That's the future of the [br]European Union speaking to you. 0:45:54.000,0:45:59.300 Your question: Should we bother [br]fighting in legislature 0:45:59.400,0:46:03.300 seems to me fair, oh yeah we should. [br]It's unpleasant work. 0:46:03.400,0:46:08.000 I worry about you. [br]I don't want your heart to burst. 0:46:08.800,0:46:14.200 I don't want people killing [br]themselves over the strain of it. 0:46:14.300,0:46:18.300 It's ugly, boring, tedious work 0:46:18.400,0:46:26.900 and the other side pays people to sit you out[br]to wait until you go home, to decide you give up. 0:46:27.000,0:46:32.600 Think of Egypt as a place where that [br]was done for thirty years along with torture. 0:46:32.700,0:46:35.400 Everything stops moving. 0:46:35.500,0:46:39.100 If you read Claude Manceron[br]on the French revolution 0:46:39.200,0:46:41.500 or the coming of the French revolution 0:46:41.600,0:46:45.000 as he moves his thousands [br]of men and women of freedom 0:46:45.100,0:46:49.000 towards the climactic events of the late 1780s 0:46:49.100,0:46:53.800 you see how deeply the feeling in France [br]at the end of the Ancien Régime 0:46:53.900,0:46:58.400 was of status beginning [br]to break up into movement. 0:46:58.600,0:47:03.300 The work you're talking about [br]is work that is largely defensive 0:47:03.400,0:47:06.600 to prevent harm from being done. 0:47:06.700,0:47:12.400 And as you say you are lucky when you win [br]after an enormous effort that nothing happens. 0:47:12.500,0:47:17.900 But the good news is in legislative politics[br]that there is a thousand ways to stop a thing 0:47:18.000,0:47:20.400 and only one way for it to get done. 0:47:20.500,0:47:25.800 And therefore the side that wants [br]to stop things has an inherent advantage. 0:47:25.900,0:47:32.300 Most of the time that's deeply[br]funded capital but sometimes it's us. 0:47:32.400,0:47:38.800 About ACTA, I think there is no question.[br]It's a fight worth fighting everywhere all the time. 0:47:38.900,0:47:46.200 Because as you say it's really the concordat,[br]the treaty between the state and private power 0:47:46.300,0:47:50.300 for the control of the net [br]under 21st century conditions 0:47:50.400,0:47:55.100 in the mingled interests of [br]the listeners and the owners. 0:47:55.400,0:48:03.500 If we do beat it, water it down, force [br]withdrawal of particularly offensive premises 0:48:03.600,0:48:08.300 or significantly expose it[br]to disinfecting daylight 0:48:08.400,0:48:10.400 we will help ourselves. 0:48:10.500,0:48:13.900 We are not going to achieve everything by any means. 0:48:14.000,0:48:21.900 We need to turn the international trade conversation[br]in the direction of direct support for freedom. 0:48:22.000,0:48:26.700 My line with the trade negotiators [br]around the world has become: 0:48:26.800,0:48:29.000 Governments have a right to share 0:48:29.100,0:48:38.700 the sharing economy has as much right to support[br]in the international trade system as the owning economy. 0:48:38.800,0:48:42.300 My colleague Mishi Choudhary[br]who directs SFLC India 0:48:42.400,0:48:46.900 was in Beijing making a speech [br]on that point earlier this year. 0:48:47.000,0:48:51.700 We will be re-iterating that point [br]in various places around the world 0:48:51.800,0:48:55.900 where strong states with which [br]we have other difficulties 0:48:56.000,0:49:00.400 meet with us in recognising [br]that the world trade system 0:49:00.500,0:49:06.100 is now overwhelmingly tilted [br]in favour of ownership based production 0:49:06.200,0:49:10.300 which is only one part [br]of the world's economic production. 0:49:10.400,0:49:16.700 We need to press hard against ACTA [br]and other pro-ownership trade law 0:49:16.800,0:49:22.200 but we also need to begin to roll out [br]an affirmative strategy of our own 0:49:22.300,0:49:28.700 demanding protection for sharing based [br]economic activities in the global trade system. 0:49:28.800,0:49:32.900 That effort will take 20 years [br]to begin to show fruit 0:49:33.000,0:49:36.500 but we need to begin that too now. 0:49:36.600,0:49:39.800 On network neutrality I will say this 0:49:39.900,0:49:49.800 We are going to have to establish counterforce[br]to the various oligopolists of telecommunications. 0:49:50.000,0:49:56.300 The regulators believe a lot of things [br]they have been told by industry. 0:49:56.400,0:50:04.100 I was at ARCEP myself in September [br]to discuss wireless network neutrality in Paris 0:50:04.200,0:50:09.700 with regulators who are well educated,[br]shrewd, thoughtful and capable 0:50:09.800,0:50:13.300 but who believe something which isn't true. 0:50:13.400,0:50:20.000 Namely that it costs enormous monetary [br]investments to build wireless networks. 0:50:21.000,0:50:28.000 And I said to the ARCEP regulators[br]Do you know about OpenBTS? 0:50:28.100,0:50:31.700 Do you know that I can take [br]a coat hanger and a laptop 0:50:31.800,0:50:37.600 and make a GSM cell phone base station [br]out of it using some free software? 0:50:37.700,0:50:40.400 Do you know about Asterisk? 0:50:40.500,0:50:46.700 I suggested that maybe they would like [br]to give us a small French city, say, Grenoble. 0:50:47.300,0:50:53.400 where using the extraodinary [br]high quality wired harness 0:50:53.500,0:50:56.500 that they built around the hexagon that is France 0:50:56.600,0:51:00.500 we will create cell phone companies out of nowhere 0:51:00.600,0:51:06.500 using cheap commodity hardware and existing handsets[br]and provide service to everybody. 0:51:06.600,0:51:11.700 And then I say it will be possible[br]to have a realistic fact-based discussion 0:51:11.800,0:51:17.200 about whether the enormous investment [br]necessities of wireless network build out 0:51:17.300,0:51:22.600 require non-neutrality in network routing practices. 0:51:22.700,0:51:27.200 Well, the regulator of course nods and smiles[br]and thanks me very much for all that information 0:51:27.300,0:51:29.300 and forgets it the minute I leave. 0:51:29.400,0:51:35.400 Because he still believes what Orange,[br]that used to be France Télécom, tells him 0:51:35.500,0:51:41.600 about how you can't make wireless networks[br]without immense monetary investments. 0:51:41.700,0:51:45.000 We will begin to gain on network neutrality 0:51:45.100,0:51:50.800 when we have a box in everybody's apartment[br]that can offer free telephone service over tunnelling 0:51:50.900,0:51:58.000 around non-neutrality and talk to GSM handsets.[br]Oh, that would be the Freedom Box. 0:51:58.500,0:52:02.800 See, that's what I wanna do.[br]I wanna build a ring of engineering 0:52:02.900,0:52:06.600 around the idea of [br]non-neutral network management. 0:52:07.000,0:52:10.900 I wanna have a box in your house[br]that senses the upstream and says 0:52:11.000,0:52:14.100 oh my God he's stopping port 655 0:52:14.200,0:52:17.000 I think I'll route that [br]from my friend's apartment. 0:52:17.700,0:52:23.500 Then I think we will get some interesting [br]network neutrality conversation going. 0:52:29.300,0:52:34.000 When you call for decentralisation 0:52:34.100,0:52:38.200 aren't you really going against[br]the trend of history as we've seen it? 0:52:38.300,0:52:42.400 For example we used to have [br]Usenet which was decentralised 0:52:42.500,0:52:46.000 that's moved much more to web based forums. 0:52:46.600,0:52:53.500 Or likewise we in geekdom may love IRC.[br]We may go to Freenode 0:52:53.700,0:52:59.000 but the general public all know about [br]Twitter which is moving into that space. 0:52:59.200,0:53:03.300 And I think there are many reasons [br]why this could be happening 0:53:03.400,0:53:09.300 but I think the primary reason is perhaps mindshare.[br]The journalists who report this to the general public 0:53:09.400,0:53:12.600 outside geekdom know about websites, [br]they know about Twitter. 0:53:12.700,0:53:18.000 They never knew about Usenet [br]so only geeks know about that 0:53:19.700,0:53:26.100 If we take this point perhaps the mindshare[br]you need to be going for is the journalists 0:53:26.200,0:53:32.000 who report on the net, get them [br]to report on decentralised networks 0:53:34.200,0:53:38.900 and get the public to start using them. 0:53:39.100,0:53:42.200 Yes, it's a crucial part [br]of the activity, that's right. 0:53:42.300,0:53:44.300 We're going to talk to people. 0:53:44.400,0:53:47.600 Some of those people are gonna be journalists [br]and some of them are gonna be our friends 0:53:47.700,0:53:51.400 and some of them are gonna be other engineers [br]and some of them are gonna be people who 0:53:51.500,0:53:54.500 when their wireless router breaks [br]they can go out buying a Freedom Box 0:53:54.600,0:53:58.000 cause it's cheaper and neater [br]and cooler and does more good stuff. 0:53:58.100,0:54:01.000 And some of them are gonna be [br]people who buy because they need it. 0:54:01.100,0:54:03.800 We just have to make the software. 0:54:03.900,0:54:06.800 The hardware guys will make [br]the hardware and everything will happen. 0:54:06.900,0:54:10.400 I don't know how long.[br]I don't know with what degree of certainty. 0:54:10.500,0:54:13.400 But I don't know if it's [br]about going against the flow of history. 0:54:13.500,0:54:17.000 I think it's about pushing the pendulum back. 0:54:19.900,0:54:26.000 The general public have to know that this[br]option exists and will serve their needs. 0:54:26.100,0:54:30.000 Yes, Apple will always advertise more than we will. 0:54:31.900,0:54:38.100 But the general public knows about Firefox[br]so they can know about the Freedom Box too. 0:54:44.900,0:54:48.400 I think we have to stop [br]in order to allow the conference to go on. 0:54:48.500,0:54:51.000 Thank you very much for your time.